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No Scald Ladder
- Thread starter Sam
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What are you talking about, the reason scald is such a great move is that you can click it basically for free against almost any team and have the chance to at least burn something, whereas moves like lava plume firstly have shitty distribution to the pokemon that would like to use it and also have guaranteed switchins in basically every fire type.
Really interested in seeing how this ladder plays out, scald burns are pretty fucking dumb.
I've never seen what the big deal with Scald is. It's great, no doubt, but there are plenty of water absorbers, clerics, Natural Cure mons etc. that take it on. If anything, why not have a ladder without Knock Off? It has resulted in the banning of 2 otherwise balanced Pokemon from UU and is just as spammable if not more so than Scald. Like someone said above me, I'd be a fool to dismiss this idea out of hand without giving the ladder a shot but I feel like Scald is a bit overhyped.
Knock Off is also a good move because you can spam it and in most cases you will remove at least 1 item, not saying Scald is bad, in fact anybody who says that should be crucified, but it's a very bad reason to call something uncompetive when its nowhere near the lines of shit like Moody
I think this will be pretty interesting. I haven't played the No Scald tier yet, but from speculation, I feel like this will be a lot more different. Scald is quite the large factor in UU, and having it removed will hinder multiple strategies (of course), but also open up a lot of opportunities for less-used Pokemon and strategies to shine. Even though I would prefer to have Scald stay if it comes to a vote, this will be pretty cool anyways. c:
Scald is stupid because it's a STAB move for the best general defensive type in the tier (Steel suffers from Fighting/Fire spam in UU) and it has a huge chance to inflict what is probably the best common defensive status.
What I mean by best common defensive status is I'm discounting Sleep and Freeze, which by virtue of disabling your opponent's Pokemon from acting at all are clearly better but much much less common, Paralyze is more valuable to offensive teams, and Burn's attack reduction, crippling many of UU's best wallbreakers while at the same time hitting any wallbreakers that are immune to Burn super-effectively, outweighs Poison's benefits (and by that I mean Toxic, because Burn is unequivocally better than regular Poison).
Expect some SERIOUS Dragon spam, kids. Most bulky Waters are gonna start carrying Ice Beam to help combat this, so Kyurem is also gonna be fucking ridiculous on this ladder, since it gives zero shits about anything 99% of bulky Waters carry.
EDIT Echoless: Don't worry, this isn't an official test or anything, just Sam and Hikari being fucking ballers and testing the water.
What I mean by best common defensive status is I'm discounting Sleep and Freeze, which by virtue of disabling your opponent's Pokemon from acting at all are clearly better but much much less common, Paralyze is more valuable to offensive teams, and Burn's attack reduction, crippling many of UU's best wallbreakers while at the same time hitting any wallbreakers that are immune to Burn super-effectively, outweighs Poison's benefits (and by that I mean Toxic, because Burn is unequivocally better than regular Poison).
Expect some SERIOUS Dragon spam, kids. Most bulky Waters are gonna start carrying Ice Beam to help combat this, so Kyurem is also gonna be fucking ridiculous on this ladder, since it gives zero shits about anything 99% of bulky Waters carry.
EDIT Echoless: Don't worry, this isn't an official test or anything, just Sam and Hikari being fucking ballers and testing the water.
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After playing a bit on the ladder :
- Obviously physical set-up Grass/Dragon types initially will flood the tier for a good reason. I tried so far both BU Chesnaught and Double Dance Haxorus and they haven't failed me.
- Wow absorbers in any fire types are good partners to such slow/subless set-up sweepers, especially Flash Fire users like Chandelure, since they also benefit from the obvious decline of water types and scald spamming so being aware of them is probably advisable.
- Speaking of which, fully offensive (252s,att|252+spe) sub cm Suicune is dangerous! Even if bulky grass types are able to break the sub and end the sweep by forcing the switch, Suicune just weakened the hyped grass/dragon set-up sweepers the teams are now surrounding about.
- Obviously physical set-up Grass/Dragon types initially will flood the tier for a good reason. I tried so far both BU Chesnaught and Double Dance Haxorus and they haven't failed me.
- Wow absorbers in any fire types are good partners to such slow/subless set-up sweepers, especially Flash Fire users like Chandelure, since they also benefit from the obvious decline of water types and scald spamming so being aware of them is probably advisable.
- Speaking of which, fully offensive (252s,att|252+spe) sub cm Suicune is dangerous! Even if bulky grass types are able to break the sub and end the sweep by forcing the switch, Suicune just weakened the hyped grass/dragon set-up sweepers the teams are now surrounding about.
Poor Heracross I can't believe how sad he must be
You're 60% off on that.
But how will you make Iconic jokes about Triple Scald Crit Burns now?????????
Mmm... I've wanted something like this for years. I find Scald pretty restricting on team building, and I am excited to build a team that isn't forced to carry a cleric or a defensive dry skin/magic guard/natural cure Pokemon.
It is nice that you conveniently elide the fact that the response is in argument to why I wouldn't hold Bodyslam/Sacred Fire/Discharge etc (which you jumped the gun) on the same ground. It is not simply a matter of hax but compared to other moves it does pose a much lower risk, wider distribution, and better typing.
Edit: The fact that it makes entirely defensive walls like Quag/Alo/Empoleon abuse the heck out of the move irregardless of their lacking investment in offense and still end up crippling the team says enough. Or the fact that you can have literally two water types spamming the move against each other fishing for burns. You can't liken that to the other moves it is very low risk and high reward, even against would be resists or despite lacking offensive investment (it will hurt just by the burn).
Moreover, I'd even put it above knock off in so much that a burn is simply more crippling in the course of a match as compared to losing an item (you not only lose recovery & take constant damage but also a halved damage output if physical all the while dealing consistent damage), Lord of Bays already expounds on this matter but nobody likes burns whether a defensive or offensive team.
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the no rocks ladder made sense and proved that at the time rocks were broken , and certain pokes were not broken with the fact that they were gone ,however now with the new defog mechanics that is no longer the case
its still a cheap ass move to use and not balanced in my opinion( thanks to trollfreak) , but its more manageable now than it was in the past due to the lack of rapid spinners in OU
Knock off is the new stealth rocks of this generation wen in doubt use knock off
Scald literally has the exact same risk factor as all of those moves, don't give me that bullshit by saying it is any less riskier when the fact of the matter is that it is not, the others, while true, do not pose any relevance at all. Also the edit you have there is just plain dumb, a move with a 30% burn rate has a chance to cripple the foe even with no offensive investment! What blasphemy is this! Honestly if you going to argue stop using these silly arguements
it was a joke lol
edit: why do these types of posts seem to get more likes than my normal posts, even my rmt original post has less
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Body slam has an immunity to ghost and is weaker in coverage effectively and distribution (more neutral), whereas discharge has a fairly wider distribution of immunity thanks to ground types (and of course an immunity and resistance to the status by the same typing). Whereas Sacred Fire is resisted by the same typing, has very low PP, incapable of inflicting burns to the same typing, and used only by one Pokemon in the tier.
You also fail to realize the point of the fact that you don't need offensive investment to be all that threatening by merit of the move alone says enough, regardless of whether you are an offensively or defensively inclined team, because that burn hurts. It frees up slots in would be passive walls by achieving both pressure and status, preventing you from being outright set up fodder. Again it should be obvious you can't simply fish for the secondary effects as freely with the other moves as compared to Scald, as we commonly see. If you honestly believe that scald carries the same risk as the other moves you clearly have a very different concept of opportunity cost. If you only focus on the 30% chance at burn you are missing the point.
I could go on but at this point you are being very selective with your own reading as I am clearly repeating myself with you while you fail to address the points and dismiss them as being silly, which is the only thing I am seeing as being silly here.
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I've always wondered why pokemon are suspect tested, while moves and items have never been tested.
Scald is a ridiculously powerful move, arguably inbalanced to the point where offensive pokemon use it (eg. Keldeo), as well as defensive. It has good BP, 100% accuracy and a ridiculous burn chance.
I would GLADLY play a metagame / ladder without Scald, and would even go as far as to throw the idea to suspect a move for the first time.
Scald is a ridiculously powerful move, arguably inbalanced to the point where offensive pokemon use it (eg. Keldeo), as well as defensive. It has good BP, 100% accuracy and a ridiculous burn chance.
I would GLADLY play a metagame / ladder without Scald, and would even go as far as to throw the idea to suspect a move for the first time.
The Pizza Man said:
someone correct me if i'm wrong but Scald isnt being looked at for being "too good"; it's being looked at for deciding entire games on the basis of luck - if you Scald burn mon X, you win; if it avoids it, you lose. Knock Off does the same thing 100% of the time - there's no competitiveness question. With Scald the best strategy is "close your eyes and pray you arent burned", moreso than other similar moves because of the specific matchup it forces. You'll never bring a fire-type in to avoid the burn, so there's a limited number of mons who don't care if they're struck by bad luck, and if you dont pack one of those, then the game might essentially be a dice roll. But yeah "you can spam Knock Off too!" is ridiculous - this isn't meant to look at the best or the most splashable moves; it's meant to examine one of the most prominent causers of game-deciding luck to be forced into play.
To me Scald wasn't as OP as people make it out to be. At the end of the day its still only 30% burn and luck is part of the game. Are we going to test stone miss next? Or what about Sacred Fire? However, I like the idea of a test of what would happen in a scald-less metagame and am interested in seeing how thing shape out. I just don't think it should ever even be suspected if push comes to shove.
Btw, what stops Gatr now?
I don't agree with the ban. Scald is a bitch but there are so many other moves that are just as haxy. There's a counter for rocks, there's a counter for knock off... players need to run a counter to scald in their teams (any special mix attackers/any pk with toxic-recovery-protect/etc).
Ultimately, if the powers that be want to avoid ppl relying on hax they should reduce the % of secondary effect after repeated use... THAT will discourage spamming
Ultimately, if the powers that be want to avoid ppl relying on hax they should reduce the % of secondary effect after repeated use... THAT will discourage spamming
Hikari and Sam aren't from Game Freak dude. They cannot change the game mechanics.
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