Discussion Normalize

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#1
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So ... Normalize. What does its boost apply to exactly?

Normalize:

Type: Toggle

This Pokemon has mastered Normal-type attacks and can change any attack type to have a Normal energy signature. All attacks used by the Pokemon are considered Normal-type attacks, although they retain the same status-inducing and other properties. The Pokemon's Normal-type attacks will have four (4) more Base Attack Power. When toggled, there is no effect.

Pokemon with this ability: Skitty, Delcatty, Voodoll.
On the one hand, you could argue that, because it specifies Normal-type attacks, it is referring to those attacks that were Normal-type before the type change, since otherwise it could just say "The Pokemon's attacks". On the other hand, you could argue that, since all attacks are Normal-type as a result of this ability's effect, the BAP boost applies to all of the Pokemon's damaging moves. We really need to get this cleared up one way or the other, and while we're at it, determine which would actually be better for the game.

Here's what Normalize's description might look like if we decide to make the boost apply only to attacks that were already Normal-type:
Normalize:

Type: Toggle

This Pokemon has mastered Normal-type attacks and can change any attack type to have a Normal energy signature. The Pokemon's Normal-type attacks will have four (4) more Base Attack Power. Its other attacks will change their typing to Normal, retain status-inducing and other properties, and not receive the Base Attack Power boost from this ability. When toggled, there is no effect.

Pokemon with this ability: Skitty, Delcatty, Voodoll.
Here's what it might look like if we decide it should apply to all attacks:
Normalize:

Type: Toggle

This Pokemon has mastered Normal-type attacks and can change any attack type to have a Normal energy signature. All attacks used by the Pokemon will have four (4) more Base Attack Power and are considered Normal-type attacks, although they retain the same status-inducing and other properties. When toggled, there is no effect.

Pokemon with this ability: Skitty, Delcatty, Voodoll.
Please leave your thoughts after the beep.

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ZhengTann

Nargacuga
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#4
I guess I'll try to define some terms I'll be using in this post:

Primary moves: Moves that are already Normal-type, and thus gain a +7 neutral damage including STAB from Normalize.
Secondary moves: Moves that are not Normal-type, and thus would gain +3 STAB upon conversion with active Normalize, with disputable +4 boost due to Normalize itself after the conversion.

Now let's take a quick glance (meaning I'll be operating at my own, slightly biased, discretion) at the 2 Pokemon (Skitty is not accounted due to being Delcatty's prevo).

Delcatty -
Primary moves: Double-Edge, Facade, Return, Frustration, Hyper Beam, Fake Out, Uproar.
Scondary moves: Blizzard, Ice Beam, Thunder, Thunderbolt, Dream Eater, Zen Headbutt.

Voodoll -
Primary moves: Facade, Return, Frustration, Hyper Beam, Uproar, Snore, Strength.
Secondary moves: Earthquake, Drain Punch, Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, Ice Punch, Rock Slide, Brick Break, Psychic.

Both the Delcatty line and Voodoll (before evolving into Voodoom) already have a good pool of Normal-type moves to choose from, and benefit from, their ability Normalize. But in addition to that, they also have some moves with specific abilities (paralysis, freeze, flinch, etc.) that are already competitive in their own right. Sure, Normalize's conversion effect might turn some SE moves into NVE moves, but the trade is already there in the +3 from STAB. Adding another +4 due to chaining Normalize's own effect is, in Texas' words, an unnecessary buff, particularly when you consider that only 3 types out of 17 resist or are immune to Normal-type attacks. So I'm supporting the notion that the +4 boost should only apply to the primary moves, not the secondaries.
 

Dogfish44

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#5
Zt is ignoring several moves in those comparisons, if I'm honest.

Delcatty's Normal-Type movepool includes Paralysis (Body Slam), and Flinching (Headbutt), both more reliable the secondary moves as is. It also normally picks up paralysis through Secret Power, although that can technically call anything, also at 30%. The point is that Delcatty has no reason to ever use moves like Thunder and Thunderbolt unless they also gain a +4 bonus, both for the fact that they're weaker and less reliable. Indeed, Delcatty is a relatively frail Pokemon, and it is unlikely to ever want to rely on it's alternative moves in any scenario - Delcatty has practically always been better simply dealing damage, as oppossed to trying to abuse status. Voodoll I can't comment on so much, but again I'll say that for a fair number of moves I doubt it'll be signifigant.

When it comes to the boost, I hold that it should apply to all moves - you're sacrificing the ability to hit anything SE for it. +4 is only scary as a boost when we assume we can hit SE with it, but that's never going to be an issue. It's not an unnecessary boost to the ability (Especially for folks like m'self who've always been told that the boost is universal, and thus see this as an unnecessary nerf), but it's there for balance.
 
#6
Just saying, I'd also add Sucker Punch and Dig to Delcatty's secondary moves, although without the +4 applying to Sucker Punch, Delcatty already has an equally-strong Fake Out.
 
#7
It would be a sacrifice if it were innate. Since it is "toggle" it is just a boost. If you want to hit a mon SE, you simply toggle normalize and ta-dah! Thunder is Thunder, Blizzard is Blizzard etc etc. This isn't ingame where Normalize is a liability at best.

+7bp to all moves is 100% silly and has no in-game precedent. Delcatty can just play around with toggle and have normal attacks when it doesn't have coverage and vice-versa. There is no need to boost normalize. If you have problems with Delcatty being bad, go pester Gamefreak or whatever.
 

ZhengTann

Nargacuga
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#8
Well, I am actually very doubtful that +4 boost only matters when you're hitting SE. Back to what I said in Feedback:
Moon Stone +Atk Delcatty is capable of dealing 20 neutral damage per action using nothing but un-boosted, 8 BAP Return to a R3 Defense mon (Dragon Fang +Atk Haxorus deals 20 neutral damage without factoring Rivalry, by comparison)
Keep in mind Delcatty has R5 Atk under positive nature. Haxorus, R7. I'm seeing Frosty's point, here - if I got him correct. Delcatty can toggle Normalize on to get that extra +4 damage on Double-Edge or Fake Out or Headbutt, or it can toggle it off to get SE coverage. BoltBeam for Delcatty, Fighting-type for Voodoll, things like that. I'm saying that when it's toggled on, you don't need that boost on every move, since you already have a plethora of Normal-type moves available. When it's toggled off, well, it's off.
 
#9
Delcatty has base 2 SpA, I can see the merit in trying to stop it from abusing Blizzard over Hyper Voice but a SE Ice beam vs Dragonite does 15.75 vs 20 dmg from Moon Stone Body Slam, also you can only toggle once when you're going first is not something you can surprise your opponent mid battle with. While I agree that the boost should only apply to the regularly Normal-type moves it can't just switch in between having or not having coverage
 
#10
OK, I think we need to get this sorted out quickly. Here's an idea of how a ballot might look:

Which attacks should Normalize's +4 BAP boost apply to?
Only attacks that were already Normal-type
All attacks
 
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