• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

Now batting in the World Series of Pokemon Suspects: Shaymin-S!

Status
Not open for further replies.
I wouldn't say that ALONE shows it isn't Uber if this community is willing to call Deoxys-E an Uber, whom would be broken because of said varied options. However, Shaymin cannot run one set that sets it team or itself up for a sweep in common battle conditions with little or no risk to itself / team.

Other common words used for Uber that Shaymin doesn't meet:
  • Overcentralizing. Does anyone actually know what overcntralizing is? I think people just associate preparing for a threat -> overcentralizing -> Uber.
  • A trend that despite countertrends continues to rise in usage a-la Tangerine's "definition": Shaymin has shown the opposite, being #1 at the end of September (if you only factor in post Platinum usages) and #10 or so in October.
  • No counters. Shaymin has both valid checks and textbook counters. (Not really related: If I see another "heatran isn't a valid answer to Skymin because of earth power" post I will explode far away from my keyboard)
  • "Guaranteed kill". Occasionally used with SD Yache Chomp; Shaymin does nothing of the sort.
So yeah. As I test, I've grown more and more on the not Uber side.
 
You're actually saying Blissey can't switch in with much threat? Do you realize that your long bold line there includes percentages that, when combined, indicate Blissey will faint less than one third of the time (32.946%)? Do you even understand the concept of probability? Cause this is the second time I have had to point this out to you.

And this is assuming Blissey switches in to Seed Flare or Substitute on the set you've been using for your argument. This is also assuming that Blissey is not running any SpD EVs. The last stats show that Blissey is as likely to be Calm as Bold (45% vs 46%) and has a great deal of SpD EVs over 50% of the time. To the 651HP/385SpD Blissey that leads off her analysis, Seed Flare does 19-23% from Modest Skymin, if it hits. If it also drops SpD, then Air Slash does 24-28%, if it hits.

So, even if it rolls max damage, Skymin is going to need two flinches to get Blissey in Seed Flare's KO range, and will need three if it rolls near min damage. This is a 22% chance at best for Skymin and 12% if it needs three flinches, which I would say is "little to no risk". This is also assuming no Leftovers recovery for Blissey, which I guess washes with my assumption that Skymin doesn't have LO, which it only did 20% of the time last month in actuality. Consult statistics and try to gain an understanding of probability before you try to make further claims on what is a check and what is a counter.

651HP/385SpD Blissey takes 22.7-26.9% damage from Timid LO Seed Flare Skymin. Aftet SpD Drop, that becomes 45.3-53.5%. Air Slash after SpDdrop does 28.6-33.6% damage. If Blissey swaps in to that, and the following happens, that's an 84.7% chance of KO (including SR damage, which will negate both the two turns of Leftovers healing). Only 1 Air Slash flinch is needed. This of course assumes that Blissey has Ice Beam.

Including misses, that means Blissey swapping in has a 27.9% chance of death (lower than your 32.9%). But I still don't consider reliable as a counter status.

252 Def, 252 SpcAtt, 4 Hlth Bold Blissey with Thunderbolt always OHKOs Bulky Gyara, including SR damage and a turn of Leftovers Recovery. She was never mentioned as a Gyara counter in the days when Gyara rarely used LO. She got 3HKOed by any of Max Attack Adamant Gyaras unboosted attacks. After a DD, she gets 2HKOed by any Waterfall, even wtih SR damage, so she can swap in on a DD and any other attack. The main reason that she was not listed as a Gyara counter was the flinch from Waterfall (it was stated on his analysis). And 20% < 27.9%.

With LO becoming popular on Gyara these days, the only thing that has changed is that Blissey gets 2HKOed by LO Max. Attack Adamant Waterfall. This attack is still a 2HKO after DD, so Blissey can swap in on any other attack. For non-LO and non-CB Gyara, the above applies.

This argument is applied for Skymin and Gyara because with that chance of their "counter" messing up, they can KO that "counter" and survive. It does not apply to Sand Veil for Gliscor, becasue even with a Sand Veil miss, Gliscor poses little threat to Suicune, Swampert, Vaporeon and other bulky waters, and will almost never beat them even with a Sand Veil miss.

Well, 27.9% is a likely chance to beat Skymin, but to have her as your only counter is very risky, especially since this chance can dramatically change if Blissey has extra residue damage (which is likely considering that she is usually used as the team's only special wall).

I wouldn't say that ALONE shows it isn't Uber if this community is willing to call Deoxys-E an Uber, whom would be broken because of said varied options. However, Shaymin cannot run one set that sets it team or itself up for a sweep in common battle conditions with little or no risk to itself / team.

Other common words used for Uber that Shaymin doesn't meet:
  • Overcentralizing. Does anyone actually know what overcntralizing is? I think people just associate preparing for a threat -> overcentralizing -> Uber.
  • A trend that despite countertrends continues to rise in usage a-la Tangerine's "definition": Shaymin has shown the opposite, being #1 at the end of September (if you only factor in post Platinum usages) and #10 or so in October.
  • No counters. Shaymin has both valid checks and textbook counters. (Not really related: If I see another "heatran isn't a valid answer to Skymin because of earth power" post I will explode far away from my keyboard)
  • "Guaranteed kill". Occasionally used with SD Yache Chomp; Shaymin does nothing of the sort.
So yeah. As I test, I've grown more and more on the not Uber side.

Deoxys-S highest usage on the OU ladder in any month was #10. By that definition, it wasn't overcentralising. It doesn't meet any of your definitions of uber (Spiritomb is arguably the best Deoxys-S counter, and with Deoxys-S becoming more popular, Spiritomb gained about as much extra popularity as people did with Registeel for Skymin). It has counters and it had little chance of a guaranteed KO thanks to not impressive base 95 SpcAtt backed off by STAB Pyschic Psycho Boost (Skymin has a higher chance thanks to base 120 SpcAtt STAB Seed Flare, STAB Air Slash and Earth Power if Skymin is clever enough to predict a Heatran swap in).

By those definitions, Deoxys-S isn't uber. It was mainly voted uber for it's extraordinary lead capibilities, most notably the DS set. If Skymin becomes Uber, it will probably be for a mix of reasons, though the main reasons would be the ability to screw up textbook counters by luck (whilst not likely, is possible enough to remove the status as counter, as with the 27.9% to beat Blissey) (and maybe by smart Skymin users pissing off people who predict well to punish those who rely just on Heatran to counter it).
 
Well, 27.9% is a likely chance to beat Skymin, but to have her as your only counter is very risky, especially since this chance can dramatically change if Blissey has extra residue damage (which is likely considering that she is usually used as the team's only special wall).
Risky? Blissey is a non-dedicated counter who by your own admission beats Skymin over 70% of the time no matter what move it switches into- and virtually 100% of the time if Skymin uses anything besides Substitute or Seed Flare. There are a lot of things wrong with you calling this "risky," considering that "assuming Stealth Rock" (and you're lucky that I didn't just "assume two switches into stealth rock" or something equally ridiculous, considering your own posts which are far more generous in terms of residual damage assumptions than I've seen in a long long time) a Life Orb Skymin will be down to at most 45% HP, even if it manages to beat Blissey, due to combined Life Orb/Stealth Rock damage. There's just no incentive for Skymin to stay in on Blissey in the first place, and even if it does for some reason, my team has to be in complete shambles (or it has to be a shitty team) for me not to have something that can force it out 1v1, assuming that your 30% roll of the dice actually goes in your favor in the first place.
 
Risky? Blissey is a non-dedicated counter who by your own admission beats Skymin over 70% of the time no matter what move it switches into- and virtually 100% of the time if Skymin uses anything besides Substitute or Seed Flare. There are a lot of things wrong with you calling this "risky," considering that "assuming Stealth Rock" (and you're lucky that I didn't just "assume two switches into stealth rock" or something equally ridiculous, considering your own posts which are far more generous in terms of residual damage assumptions than I've seen in a long long time) a Life Orb Skymin will be down to at most 45% HP, even if it manages to beat Blissey, due to combined Life Orb/Stealth Rock damage. There's just no incentive for Skymin to stay in on Blissey in the first place, and even if it does for some reason, my team has to be in complete shambles (or it has to be a shitty team) for me not to have something that can force it out 1v1, assuming that your 30% roll of the dice actually goes in your favor in the first place.

Like you said, Blissey is a non-dedicated counter, used as the whole team's special wall e.g. heatran and zapdos counter, so she probably will be taking extra damage, meaning that two Seed Flares (with the first having a SpDrop) will KO, so Blissey can't act as a counter then. Chances are Blissey will be KOed if she swaps in on that case is 57.8% (more likely than an Air Slash flinch). Skymin will only take two LO hits (between 44-45% damage with SR damage) (and assuming she swaps into SR again, she can still do three more attacks without dying).

If that scenario doesn't occur, then like you said, Skymin would swap out.

And my argument was not to proof that Skymin beats Blissey. Rather it was to say that Blissey isn't a paper counter. Though generally speaking, Skymin is fought with a combination of checks (not just 1).
 
651HP/385SpD Blissey takes 22.7-26.9% damage from Timid LO Seed Flare Skymin. Aftet SpD Drop, that becomes 45.3-53.5%. Air Slash after SpDdrop does 28.6-33.6% damage. If Blissey swaps in to that, and the following happens, that's an 84.7% chance of KO (including SR damage, which will negate both the two turns of Leftovers healing). Only 1 Air Slash flinch is needed. This of course assumes that Blissey has Ice Beam.

This also assumes the 57% chance that Air Slash actually flinches, which a naked Skymin has to depend on in order to not be countered. Skymin loses if 57% doesn't happen, it is that simple and you continue to ignore the crucial luck factor to make your argument seem strong. Further, while 46% of Blissey had Ice Beam last month, 40% had TW, and even Flamethrower does enough to either severely cripple Skymin. Blissey doesn't need IB to counter LO Skymin, even if that's her third most popular move.

252 Def, 252 SpcAtt, 4 Hlth Bold Blissey with Thunderbolt always OHKOs Bulky Gyara, including SR damage and a turn of Leftovers Recovery. She was never mentioned as a Gyara counter in the days when Gyara rarely used LO. She got 3HKOed by any of Max Attack Adamant Gyaras unboosted attacks. After a DD, she gets 2HKOed by any Waterfall, even wtih SR damage, so she can swap in on a DD and any other attack. The main reason that she was not listed as a Gyara counter was the flinch from Waterfall (it was stated on his analysis). And 20% < 27.9%.
No, the main reason she wasn't listen as a counter to Gyarados is because there are like a dozen better ones that didn't have to largely overspecialize to counter Gyarados (I wrote the analysis). Ice Beam was far, far more popular because of Garchomp and Electivire, and nobody actually used both even if I put the CM set not only in the Analysis but on the Threat List for a long time. In short, nobody was as silly as to force Blissey into doing something she had to overspecialize to do. The reason this does not apply to 651HP/385SpD Blissey is because Blissey is and forever will be a special wall, as that is what she does best.

Well, 27.9% is a likely chance to beat Skymin, but to have her as your only counter is very risky, especially since this chance can dramatically change if Blissey has extra residue damage (which is likely considering that she is usually used as the team's only special wall).
Everybody who knows anything about competitive pokemon already knows that, and has for years. You didn't have a team with Salamence/Starmie/Skarmory/Blissey/Heracross/Celebi in Advance because if CB Dugtrio took out Blissey then Raikou was free to sweep. The same concept apples today with Skymin, and if you think it is a coincedence that over half of the top 10 pokemon at least checks to Skymin, you're missing something.
 
Though those pokemon aren't in the top ten just because they're checks to skymin. IMO, they're there mostly because they really are the most powerful forces in the metagame of their own abilities.
 
This also assumes the 57% chance that Air Slash actually flinches, which a naked Skymin has to depend on in order to not be countered. Skymin loses if 57% doesn't happen, it is that simple and you continue to ignore the crucial luck factor to make your argument seem strong. Further, while 46% of Blissey had Ice Beam last month, 40% had TW, and even Flamethrower does enough to either severely cripple Skymin. Blissey doesn't need IB to counter LO Skymin, even if that's her third most popular move.

Which is why I said Skymin wins 27.9% of the time (barring residual damage).

But like you said, chances are someone with Blissey will still have a check for Skymin. It should be fine as long as the check can swap into Seed Flare (which is the move that Blissey may not be able to swap into. Heatran is good, and so is specially defensive Zapdos. Scizor is mediocre, because after Seed Flare SpDrop, he gets KOed by Air Slash.)

And I can't argue with the analysis; I didn't write it, especially considering that the Blissey not being a counter to Gyarados statement was removed from the analysis months ago.
 
Which is why I said Skymin wins 27.9% of the time (barring residual damage).

So if one pokemon loses to one of its counters 72.1% of the time without the counter even having to alter its normal moveset and EV spread and only if it comes into a SpDef drop from Seed Flare, you think it should be Uber? I'm sorry, but since every argument that you've given has either been refuted already or is blatantly false I have to assume that this is what you're thinking.

Basically, Skymin came into an environment that was already well-equipped to handle it. Skymin is not strong enough to power through its counters like Garchomp, it doesn't have the defenses or recovery to make it a force throughout the entire match, and it doesnt have the movepool to keep you guessing like Deoxys. Basically, it has no Uber characteristics EXCEPT Serene Grace + two annoying moves. Have you ever KOd a Blissey with Skymin? Would you risk it, knowing that you have a >70% chance of losing? That would be like staying in on Heatran knowing that there is a 15% chance Fire Blast will miss, would you do that?

Even with Stealth Rock damage and 10% damage before it comes in, Blissey will still survive two Seed Flares on average, even if the first one drops her SpDef. If that isn't a counter in d/ps fast-paced metagame, then nothing counters anything and the entire word can be thrown out the window. There is a reason why OU has a physical bias, and Skymin exemplfies it. Special attackers in OU are simply too weak to be "broken". 120 base spatk is not that much without any good boosting moves, especially when you have two of the worst STAB types in the game.

Also, there is a difference between "I think its flinch rate is too high" and "I think it's Uber". If Skymin gets banned simply because of the "luck factor" then we will have to drastically change the game we are playing. No more Togekiss, Jirachi, pokemon with Sand Veil, no more Absol, etc.
 
I've been doing some thinking about Skymin...

When people look at it they look at its great offensive stats and offensive movepool, but when you think about it it really isn't that great of a team player. Teams that normally dominate in today's metagame seem to be the kinds of teams that are built to last in a battle.

The only team support Skymin can really offer is Leech Seeding, but it seems impractical to switch because Stealth Rock is probably on 90% of teams. I seem to have about as difficult of time using Skymin compared to Salamence, which suffer from some of the same drawbacks and weaknesses.

The thing that most people forget these days is the fact that not having the greatest sweepers out there will win, but team synergy. It is pretty obvious what will beat what and it seems just about as obvious that people would switch to something that could comfortably deal with a threat.

Sure Blissey will lose to the SubSeed set, but who in their right minds will leave Blissey in to let it die? If I'm up against the SubSeed set I tend to try to stall out its Leech Seed PP by switching to and from Blissey and Zapdos.

Since the metagame seems to have leveled out and people are trying some more diverse things... I'm even more certain that this thing is OU.
 
As far as resetting the ratings go; I think it would be a nice idea for the test. As of now I'm banned from the smogon server ?_? . I don't know why...


Anyways, the problem with Skymin are as follows:

Serene Grace allows:

- A very high percent of -2 SDef drop with Seed Flare.
- A higher chance of SDef drop with Earth Power.
- An extremely high flinch rate.


With the above being said, not many things can safely switch in on a STAB Seed Flare from Skymin, especially with that large chance of getting a -2 SDef drop. Scizor can do some damage, but is 2HKO'd by Air Slash. And Bullet Punch doesn't OHKO it. Mamoswine would be a great counter, except for the fact that it gets raped by Seed Flare.

Another problem is it's insane speed. It outspeed Starmie, Weavile, Azelf, and Gengar, those guys used to be known for there speed and ability to sweep. With Skymin now stepping up to the plate it's outclassed in so many ways.

Basically Skymin is ruining the Metagame, along with Scizor IMO.
 
>__________________>

As far as resetting the ratings go; I think it would be a nice idea for the test. As of now I'm banned from the smogon server ?_? . I don't know why...


Anyways, the problem with Skymin are as follows:

Serene Grace allows:

- A very high percent of -2 SDef drop with Seed Flare. Which is resisted by so many top pokemon, that even though we've grass types like roserade and sceptile with great offensive stats for ages, they've never made it anywhere near the top 10
- A higher chance of SDef drop with Earth Power.
- An extremely high flinch rate. From an attack with 75 base power, wow-- flying is also good but not the greatest attacking typing either


With the above being said, not many things can safely switch in on a STAB Seed Flare from Skymin, especially with that large chance of getting a -2 SDef drop. Scizor can do some damage, but is 2HKO'd by Air Slash. And Bullet Punch doesn't OHKO it. Mamoswine would be a great counter, except for the fact that it gets raped by Seed Flare.Again, why do you need a full counter? If you really need one, there's always registeel/regice

Another problem is it's insane speed. It outspeed Starmie who is a tank rather than sweeper anyway, Weavile who can ice shard it anyway (and is not that popular), Azelf who has 125 atk power in BOTH offensive stats, and a much godlier movepool, and Gengar Who has way more special attack and better offensive combo with ghost/fight, those guys used to be known for there speed and ability to sweep. With Skymin now stepping up to the plate it's outclassed in so many ways.

Basically Skymin is ruining the Metagame, along with Scizor IMO. What are you on? I want some
 
So if one pokemon loses to one of its counters 72.1% of the time without the counter even having to alter its normal moveset and EV spread and only if it comes into a SpDef drop from Seed Flare, you think it should be Uber? I'm sorry, but since every argument that you've given has either been refuted already or is blatantly false I have to assume that this is what you're thinking.

I was discussing why Blissey wouldn't be considered counter status. 29.7% is enough to counter; it just should be backed up by a check that doesn't fear Seed Flare in case something happens. That was mainly because if Skymin doesn't have the 57.8% of KOing, she will swap out, and 19.5% residual damage on Blissey guarantees that Skymin can KO a Blissey swapping in 57.8% of the time, which Blissey always seems to have because she is almost always the team's only special wall. That 19.5% damage is easily done by a Timid Heatran Fire Blast.)

It's like why you can't have Hippowdon or Donphan as your team's only method of getting rid of physical Tyranitar (before Plat and Aqua Tail's introduction). If Hippo/Donphan had too much damage, he would be unable to swap into CB Crunch.

Basically, Skymin came into an environment that was already well-equipped to handle it. Skymin is not strong enough to power through its counters like Garchomp, Chomp is uber, it doesn't have the defenses or recovery to make it a force throughout the entire match, and it doesnt have the movepool to keep you guessing like Deoxys. Basically, it has no Uber characteristics EXCEPT Serene Grace + two annoying moves. Have you ever KOd a Blissey with Skymin? Yes, but not in that 27.9% scenario, in the 57.8% one. Would you risk it, knowing that you have a >70% chance of losing? That would be like staying in on Heatran knowing that there is a 15% chance Fire Blast will miss, would you do that? Of course not.

Even with Stealth Rock damage and 10% damage before it comes in, Blissey will still survive two Seed Flares on average, even if the first one drops her SpDef. If that isn't a counter in d/ps fast-paced metagame, then nothing counters anything and the entire word can be thrown out the window. There is a reason why OU has a physical bias, and Skymin exemplfies it. Special attackers in OU are simply too weak to be "broken". 120 base spatk is not that much without any good boosting moves, especially when you have two of the worst STAB types in the game.

Also, there is a difference between "I think its flinch rate is too high" and "I think it's Uber". If Skymin gets banned simply because of the "luck factor" then we will have to drastically change the game we are playing. No more Togekiss, Jirachi, pokemon with Sand Veil, no more Absol, etc.

A large part of the luck factor includes what happens if the hax occurs. If a Gliscor counter e.g. any of the bulky waters miss a Surf on Gliscor, it is very unlikely that Gliscor will be able to pose a threat with Earthquake. Such a miss means little, especially compared to a flinch that results in the opponent being killed. This is part of the reason why OHKO clause is applied, as that 30% chance results in a KO. Same goes for Evasion Clause, but not as strongly.

Togekiss and Jirachi need a turn to cast Paralysis to flinch most things. Skymin doesn't need paralysis support except against Scarfers, Jolteon, Aerodactly, Crobat, Ninjask and Electrode. Paralysis can also be blocked by Ground Pokemon, Electivire and Jolteon (Ghost in the case of Body Slam) and healed by Rest, Aromtherapy or Heal Bell, whilst the only method for blocking flinch is Inner Focus (Lucario, Dragonite and Crobat are the only notable pokemon that can do this). And Absol only has 12.5% of critical with Scope Lens and Sucker Punch (without Sucker Punch, a lot outspeeds Absol).

Most of the pokemon who have Zap Cannon are Electric pokemon, who can threaten others already with a strong electric move and Thunderwave, so those who would fear THunderbolt would fear Zap Cannon. Plus Zap Cannon is completely blocked by Ground pokemon (and there goes the element of surprise). The closest exception in OU is Forretress, whose Zap Cannon would only really hurt Gyarados (and Skarmory). But this weakens Gyro Ball's power and Forretress has a poor SpcAtt to use it with.

I've been doing some thinking about Skymin...

When people look at it they look at its great offensive stats and offensive movepool, but when you think about it it really isn't that great of a team player. Teams that normally dominate in today's metagame seem to be the kinds of teams that are built to last in a battle.

The only team support Skymin can really offer is Leech Seeding, but it seems impractical to switch because Stealth Rock is probably on 90% of teams. I seem to have about as difficult of time using Skymin compared to Salamence, which suffer from some of the same drawbacks and weaknesses.

The thing that most people forget these days is the fact that not having the greatest sweepers out there will win, but team synergy. It is pretty obvious what will beat what and it seems just about as obvious that people would switch to something that could comfortably deal with a threat.

Sure Blissey will lose to the SubSeed set, but who in their right minds will leave Blissey in to let it die? If I'm up against the SubSeed set I tend to try to stall out its Leech Seed PP by switching to and from Blissey and Zapdos.

Since the metagame seems to have leveled out and people are trying some more diverse things... I'm even more certain that this thing is OU.

Only comment here is that trying to switch between Zapdos and Blissey would lead to Skymin swapping out to a Zapdos counter once it reachs full Heatlh and Zapdos swaps in and takes SR damage. The Skymin player would have a slight edge from that, as the opponent would then usually be forced to swap out their Zapdos, who would return with 50% thanks to a second round of SR damage. Everything else is fine.
 
Deoxys-S highest usage on the OU ladder in any month was #10. By that definition, it wasn't overcentralising. It doesn't meet any of your definitions of uber (Spiritomb is arguably the best Deoxys-S counter, and with Deoxys-S becoming more popular, Spiritomb gained about as much extra popularity as people did with Registeel for Skymin). It has counters and it had little chance of a guaranteed KO thanks to not impressive base 95 SpcAtt backed off by STAB Pyschic Psycho Boost (Skymin has a higher chance thanks to base 120 SpcAtt STAB Seed Flare, STAB Air Slash and Earth Power if Skymin is clever enough to predict a Heatran swap in).

By those definitions, Deoxys-S isn't uber. It was mainly voted uber for it's extraordinary lead capibilities, most notably the DS set. If Skymin becomes Uber, it will probably be for a mix of reasons, though the main reasons would be the ability to screw up textbook counters by luck (whilst not likely, is possible enough to remove the status as counter, as with the 27.9% to beat Blissey) (and maybe by smart Skymin users pissing off people who predict well to punish those who rely just on Heatran to counter it).

Sorry, I really don't want you to think you "won" that point because I think DX-S should have been OU. Shouldn't have made that assumption.

You also completely ignored the point where I never defined overcentralization.

Textbook counters (You happened to not pick the best textbook counter, by the way... I wonder why?) don't really mean anything if there are a multitude of checks in existence in a metagame that's already unwelcome for Skymin to sweep in. Hell, even if the metagame changed a bit it wouldn't be Uber.

As you appear to be ignoring / dismissing some normal valid points (this is one of the few areas I agree with j7r with, and that's a rarity), consider this: If Skymin is so Uber, why aren't you using him to easily get to the top of the Ladder?
 
Sorry, I really don't want you to think you "won" that point because I think DX-S should have been OU. Shouldn't have made that assumption. Well it is uber. 5 votes to 26 votes. I was under the impression you thought it was uber.

You also completely ignored the point where I never defined overcentralization. Well I'm filling in that gap.

Textbook counters (You happened to not pick the best textbook counter, by the way... I wonder why?) don't really mean anything if there are a multitude of checks in existence in a metagame that's already unwelcome for Skymin to sweep in. Hell, even if the metagame changed a bit it wouldn't be Uber. I chose Blissey because she is the most common one. Oh, and if Crobat tries Roosting to heal LO damage after swapping into Air Slash, he gets KOed by Earth Power. So I no longer consider Crobat a paper counter.

As you appear to be ignoring / dismissing some normal valid points (this is one of the few areas I agree with j7r with, and that's a rarity), consider this: If Skymin is so Uber, why aren't you using him to easily get to the top of the Ladder?
Just because a person uses Skymin, doesn't mean he's top in the Ladder. Tons of people used Garchomp before he became Ubers, hardly any of them were top in the Ladder, only the best people.
 
Overcentralization gap
No you're not. You're claiming something doesn't meet the definition that I never made...

You also haven't proposed one from what I've read.

I can't tell if you're joking or not. It's like saying that Zapdos with HP Ice doesn't counter Gliscor because if it Roosts it's hit by Earthquake. If you're faster, survive a hit, and OHKO, you're a counter. No questions asked.

A broken Pokémon should be easy to win with. That's my point. Rather than try and convince people by arguing (which you don't appear to be successful at), why not convince them by beating them all with something "overpowered"? The only time something is overpowered is if it's unfair enough to be so, and you think it's overpowered, so go beat everyone with it and get to the top of the ladder.
 
I'm posting if only to enlighten jrrrrrrr to one of his own arguments that he has made in the past which I think perfectly encapsulates why this sort of thing is a bit "too much" for the Standard metagame.

The 27% chance of a Shaymin-S beating a Blissey through means of Special Defense drops and Flinches is incredibly comparable to that of an OHKO move. (I will be rounding 27% up to 30% simply for argument's sake)

Both Shaymin-S and an OHKO move have a 30% chance to take out a Pokemon, regardless of whether or not it's a counter, no questions asked.

If I may, jrrrrrrr, this is the line that struck me the most when reading your posts in the OHKO thread.

Who cares if people won't statistically win reliably. The fact of the matter is that they will still win.

This I believe is the entire essence of why Shaymin-S is too much for OU. Sure, you won't win every time through luck, but the fact that you will win one in four times due to nothing but luck is incredibly disturbing.

The only difference I see between OHKO moves and Shaymin-S FlinchHaxing is that if Shaymin-S fails to get the luck it needs, it's more than likely dead, unlike that of OHKO moves who can get the kill on a forced switch. I feel, however, that this isn't as big of a difference to warrent one's approval for OU, and one's disapproval.

The fact is that in allowing Shaymin-S to stay in OU you detract from the skill of the game. I have been, and always will be, a proponent of lowering the amount of luck in the game (within reason) and banning Shaymin-S seems a more than reasonable way to do so.
 
Chris is right here of course.

Here's something important to note:

When Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S were in OU, what hapened? Strong players like IPL used them to reign the ladderboard. While Wobb and D-S were not necessarily the most used, they were being abused to great extent by players at the top of the board. A group of such players repeatedly said: These pokemon are uber, and we'll keep abusing them 'til they're banned.

We don't even need to go into how much useage Garchomp got.

But Shaymin-S? The movement for "uber" is nothing like D-S and Wobb were. I don't think I've ever ran into a player in the top 20 who was using skymin. Some of those top players bitch about getting haxed now and again, but I haven't heard anyone say "Skymin is so Uber, I'm just going to keep raking in the wins until it's banned!"

Why? Because to get to the top you have to win consistantly, and skymin doesn't get you there. >>

edit: BTW-- LonelyNess' argument is one I also brought up on the skymin discussion thread, and is the only viable (semi-viable?) argument that I have heard for banning skymin. I think it is the one we should consider, and if we agree, we ban it and if we don't we keep it.

While I agree that skymin takes some of the skill away from the game, I'm not for banning it. I'd have to say it's impact on reducing skill is overall small (I rarely run into them anyway). However its presence overall is good.

Its presence keeps scarfheatran running +speed, and prevents teams with 2-3 bulky waters on the same team. Those are good things imo. Rather if Skarfran gets to go +sp.ATK it WILL hurt a lot more, and there will be extra incentive for teams with Gyara/Vappy/Starmie all on the same team.
 
LN, the odds are for "one" Pokémon that would otherwise KO Skymin, as compared to the odds of a OHKO move hitting on a switch-in for one turn.

I find it comparable to a 27% chance to 2HKO something rather than the accuracy of a OHKO move.

And this is one Pokémon.

Also OHKO should probably be tested.
 
That is a pretty good argument, but it has one fatal flaw. Switching.

Every decent team has something that can take the Seed Flare or Air Slash and still be in good shape to do major damage to Skymin.

If I know something remotely has the chance of knocking out my Blissey I would be quite hesitant to leave it in.

I don't understand why people keep debating about things like people don't switch...
 
Because everything else in your arsenal isn't going to like the prospect of switching into one of Skymin's attacks... unless of course you're advocating the usage of 2-3 checks specifically for Shaymin-S... and then I think we're getting into Garchomp territory.
 
LonelyNess, if my team has scarfran, zapdos, scizor and blissey and all of them can beat skymin in one way or another, I'd hardly call that over-centralization.

The difference between Garchomp and Skymin is that the pokemon that beat skymin already are the best, with or without it around. They'd be at the top anyway.

But even below these obvious checks, skymin has issues with metagross, bronzong, tyranitar, lucario, salamence, gengar, weavile, flygon, celebi (scarf hp ice quite common these days), jirachi, mamoswine . . . not as counters but lets say skymin's not about to break into an all out sweep anytime soon.

The point is that you're not really running specialized stuff JUST to beat skymin. Skymin has issues with taking down most of the top pokemon. It's a fact.
 
We're detracting from the main point of my argument in that, with luck, Shaymin-S can beat every single one of those Pokemon.

That is why it's Uber, not because it "breaks out a sweep," but because through no part of the player's skill, it can do things it ought not be able to do because of luck.
 
The thing is that luck is part of the game, so banning based only on luck factors is all relative. In other words, if we're going to ban something based on luck, it's not about "whether it uses luck or not," it's "whether it involves too much luck," meaning it's a measure of degree (degree of luck, and degree of impact when one loses the luck).

In other words we're not talking about black and white facts.

We're talking about measuring degree, and when talking about degree-- how much is "too much"-- it always becomes truly subjective. It comes down to opinion.

My opinion is different from your LonelyNess, and if you really want to ban it on luck (therefore ban it on general opinion) we'll just have to wait and see what the folks in the vote think.

Frankly, I think it's not that "too much." I'd say Machamp detracts from skill more than skymin does.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top