Announcement np: BDSP OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Mr. Blue Sky

[Lalaya]

answering in blue bc yea

Latios not is broken! and my vote is DNB! latios have a lot count of solid cheks int the metagame BDSP OU.
Checks with solid recover:
Blissey ( can t-wave in latios and disable all of your power)
yes, but no latios will stay in on a blissey regardless
sp def clef with magic guard or unware( magic guard able clefable to avoid hazards damage, and make psych not a two hit k.o after leftovers recovery, and unware can check psych with no hazards, and check de calm mind set of latios)
only the unaware set is used, and orb/specs psychic 2HKOes, especially after hazards
utility gardevoir with a bulk investment ( is a good cleric mon, with a good speed, and have utility in defensive teams and balance),
snorlax ( omg this mon can check, gengar, alakazam, manaphy, have a body slam to make a solid damage, have curse to counter latios with recover, have recycle to recover hp)
not two Pokémon you see commonly in the metagame right now, neither two, and if I were to use a Gardevoir I definitely wouldn't use it other than Choiced or CMind, i guess
Jirachi ( good cleric mon, have u-turn to make a good advantage to a possible latios switch, have wish, its good to offensive teams because have doom desire to help ofensive dragon mons and have a solid bulk to check another mons in the meta)
yes, although slightly harder to fit than the Pokémon mentioned below
Scizor Sp Def ( the best latios check actually in the meta, have defog, u-turn to make advantage, not take two hit k.o after rocks)
yes, and this is why SpDef Scizor is the most used Pokémon in the metagame right now, according to usage
Umbreom ( another good cleric with a massive bulk to check gengar and alakzam, have heall bell, and have foul play to make a lot damage in latios)
same as Gardevoir and Snorlax, not a Pokémon you see in the metagame since it has such a small niche it's not worth using otherwise
Shedinja ( not have recover but latios ca'nt touch this).
Shedinja checked almost every Rain in the meta except from Hurricane Pelippers, but Shedinja being able to wall someone doesn't mean that someone is less broken, considering Shedinja can only fit very specific teams and... is useless otherwise
Checks with not solid recover, but can't survive some turns, to make a rock 's damage in switchs of latios

Registeel ( UN UN UN UN, this mon have rest, curse, sleep talk, can put rocks in latios switch, can use thunder wave to make a good damage in the enemy team)
Same as Pokémon above, not used enough thanks of not having a niche that other Pokémon already do better
Bronzong (Rocks setter, have lavitate to make a ground immunity, is a solid check to fairys)
Empoleon (rocks setter, have defog, is OU in the meta)
Those two are fine, but Empoleon automatically loses against TBolt Latios

Some things to talk:

if we consider absurds possibilities of latios like a latios with shadow ball, energy ball latios, luster purger etc, we can consider absurd defensive checks like a calm mind blissey with shadow ball, because in the two cases you are harming your mon to specifically things, latios with not surf or thunderbolt, is destroyed to heatran or empoleon.
Heatran isn't nearly as used as we want it to be right now, but as usual it only checks CM-less Latios, which is a real possibility right now, and Thunderbolt isn't nearly as novelty as we might think right now: proof
Latios can't spam psych or draco because we have fairys and dark mons, after draco latios make easy possibilities to azumarill setup, dragonite, feraligator, spam of draco have a punish to the player.
Half true, while Latios after dropping a Meteor gets more susceptible to getting setupped, it's also a powerful tool that doesn't leave survivors in its path, and the only two fairies used enough to shield the team from it can't enter on Psychic. Not to mention, it's fairly easy to position yourself in a way that you CAN fire Dracos if your check is Scizor, for instance.
Latios is weak to u-turn, and this make more hard to latios enter in the battle.
Volturn is indeed great, but almost no Volturner is faster than Latios regardless, so the offensive ones get hit and you can only rely on the defensive ones, like Jirachi, which shouldn't fall on Latios to beat, regardless, not to mention it's also harder to punish a Latios that didn't show a move yet.
Latios not centralize the metagame because your checks is good to other things in OU. example: shedinja is good to chekc manaphy, sp def clefable check latias, manaphy, alakazam.
Last Thing, band mamoswine kill latios with ice shard, god bye!
I'm going to answer to above with this, but 1: Shedinja isn't a good pro-Latios argument because it doesn't encompass how the Pokémon is centralizing in regard of all the metagame and instead focuses on the issue of "I don't have a super effective move for it", and as already said Shedinja is not a Pokémon you can easily fit into team comps at all, especially here in BDSP OU.
2: "Oh wow, a x2 weakness move kills it, that Pokémon must suck" Such a fallacy right here, you don't value Pokémon just in how easily they can die from a thing, or Scizor would be screwed. Especially since you need a BANDED Mamoswine to actually end his permancence, which isn't really a set right now.

Sorry for the bad english, i am brazilian :(

obs: why peoples hate wallbreakers?

not gonna lie chief i cant read half the text in this in dark mode so I changed it
but aside from that, the reason why Latios is suspected is that it limits teambuilding in a very oppressive way by making you field things like SpDef Scizor and Jirachi that slow your team and the game regardless of things, and the offensive counterplay is just very, very limited otherwise. Of course, having different opinions is very welcome, but some Pokémon in your thread are just... not used at all

 

[QuickBH]

but aside from that, the reason why Latios is suspected is that it limits teambuilding in a very oppressive way by making you field things like SpDef Scizor and Jirachi that slow your team and the game regardless of things, and the offensive counterplay is just very, very limited otherwise. Of course, having different opinions is very welcome, but some Pokémon in your thread are just... not used at all

Maybe it's because I'm a jank lover but I've seen pretty much all of these Pokemon used well, Registeel and Snorlax being the most niche. As others have stated people put these sets to worry about a bunch of other Pokemon and to say it's exclusively otherwise is disingenuous. People seem to forget that we are not even 3 weeks into the freaking metagame and the only tournament matches that we've had is still playing with Blaziken and is in its first round. There straight up isn't even enough data to know what the meta even is and if people discover ways to beat a bunch of Pokemon that also handles Latios (and not exclusively) then it's perfectly acceptable.

 

[Lalaya]

Maybe it's because I'm a jank lover but I've seen pretty much all of these Pokemon used well, Registeel and Snorlax being the most niche. As others have stated people put these sets to worry about a bunch of other Pokemon and to say it's exclusively otherwise is disingenuous. People seem to forget that we are not even 3 weeks into the freaking metagame and the only tournament matches that we've had is still playing with Blaziken and is in its first round. There straight up isn't even enough data to know what the meta even is and if people discover ways to beat a bunch of Pokemon that also handles Latios (and not exclusively) then it's perfectly acceptable.

Ofc if there's Latios counterplay people are free to show it... but it must work on games and not on paper
I'm obviously happy if such counterplay exists but so far all I saw is that he warps teambuilding to an extent you HAVE to use such counterplay in your team or get bent if you don't, and most Pokémon mentioned were good checks (Bronzong, Empoleon, Rachi, Scizor), but Gardevoir is an offensive check and we have plenty of those and the other Pokémon are just straight up bad, and we can safely say Pokémon like Registeel and Snorlax have no place in here
My point is that while on paper we should have more counterplay than we think, in real games its still... that, because fitting SpD Rachi/Zor is already restrictive and effective enough that you don't need the rest, since they just do a worse job at the rest overall, while Garde is a offensive check and Shedinja is Shedinja
If anything, the suspect SHOULD cover how you could check this Pokémon or not...

 

[Celever]

Literally just started playing BDSP this morning and already it's pretty clear Latios should be banned. My gut instinct in teambuilder having done no research was a Psychic-Type spam team with Latios, and it's tearing up because Psychic-Type STAB is insane in this meta. Every Dark-Type in this format is incredibly frail besides literally Umbreon which isn't good, and Fighting-Type is also incredibly good making it unappealing to run defensively in teambuilder. Not to mention every Dark-Type besides Umbreon is demolished by Draco Meteor, making Psychic super spammable by the mid-game most of the time. I made the choice to pair this with Future Sight too (I needed rocks so went with Uxie, but realistically use Slowbro) meaning any answers to Latios clicking Psychic gets worn down even faster. This strategy is only broken because of Latios, and if the meta progresses with Latios will probably become more standard.

Latios and Starmie core

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Scald

Latios (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

Starmie doesn't even have Psychic in this, but people still switch their Psychic-Type defensive coverage in for obvious reasons. Can be modified, but try this out because Starmie is the biggest enabler of Latios that I can find and is a top tier mon in its own right anyway.

The defensive counterplay to Latios really is not all there either. I've seen a lot of Metagross (which is bad in this format) on offense just to have a Latios switch-in, since Jirachi and Bronzong are momentum killers. Beyond that there aren't many options -- Empoleon is fine but has to be run SpDef and at best can just use Roar vs CM Lati to push the problem until later in the match, and Tyranitar is an inconsistent answer. Latios has a reasonable amount of offensive counterplay, but offensive counterplay is always worse than defensive counterplay considering it usually involves sacking a mon to Latios, which emphasises its brokenness.

So yeah this is hard ban territory. Fun format though.

 

[nimzowitsch]

There are solid arguments for both Latios being banned or it staying, but after some laddering I currently lean toward Do Not Ban. Maybe it's just my playstyle, but I've never found Latios to be considerably more threatening than other top offensive threats such Alakazam, Gengar, and Manaphy. It's true that very offensive teams struggle to switch in on it, especially if their Scizor is weakened, but in that case you just need to hit back harder and try to trade kills with it or exploit it in other ways. Very often Latios is choice-locked, and you can try to play around it or use it to your advantage by setting up your SD Weavile after a Psychic move, BD Azumarill after a Dragon/Water move, etc. I've managed to sweep many teams with my Azumarill once my opponent is forced to lock into Outrage or Draco. More defensive teams can use a variety of options, such as SpDef Scizor, SpDef Unaware Clefable, Blissey, and Umbreon to check Latios. In addition, a weakened Latios (especially if running Life Orb) can be picked off by a variety of priority moves (which are very common), such as BP Scizor, Espeeds from Luke and Dnite, etc. Although Latios's wide movepool and varied sets make a solid switch in for it difficult to find on paper, in practice I found that one can deal with it through concerted means, such as scouting its moveset, exploiting the choice lock, and weakening it enough with one Pokemon to allow a priority user to finish it off. No doubt Latios is a very strong Pokemon, but I don't consider it oppressive or overcentralizing.

What is interesting is that I think Magnezone greatly enables Latios by trapping usual checks to it such as SpDef Scizor and Empoleon. While Scizor can escape with U-turn, the damage forced on it by Specs Tbolts makes it too injured to check Latios for the rest of the match (unless it gets a chance to Roost). I think we need to discuss whether the problems caused by Latios are due to Latios itself or due to Magnezone trapping its best checks.

Again, although I lean towards DNB, there are still reasonable arguments for banning Latios, such as the fact that CM/Roost sets can bypass some of its usual checks. However, tailoring movesets to choose their checks and counters isn't unique to Latios, and not necessarily the sign of a broken pokemon. In any case I have not encountered a single Calm Mind Latios during my time on ladder so I don't know how effective it is. If you think Latios deserves a ban, you can try to convince me.

 

[Hobie]

Again, although I lean towards DNB, there are still reasonable arguments for banning Latios, such as the fact that CM/Roost sets can bypass some of its usual checks. However, tailoring movesets to choose their checks and counters isn't unique to Latios, and not necessarily the sign of a broken pokemon. In any case I have not encountered a single Calm Mind Latios during my time on ladder so I don't know how effective it is. If you think Latios deserves a ban, you can try to convince me.

I think you are totally right about Choice Latios not being broken; it gets chipped down rather easily and once you know its coverage moves it can be relatively easy to answer defensively, as well as fast mons being able to beat it with neutral moves once its chipped. However, as you pointed out above Roost sets are much harder to deal with and in my opinion are the thing that makes Lati an unhealthy presence in the tier. There are at most half a dozen defensive answers of which only one fits well onto offensive teams and even then if Scizor has some decent chip it dies to two Surfs/Thunderbolts. I think Latios is a really fun mon to use and would love to see it stay in the tier so if anyone has a good argument for it being a healthy presence in the tier I would love to hear it.

 

[QuickBH]

I think you are totally right about Choice Latios not being broken; it gets chipped down rather easily and once you know its coverage moves it can be relatively easy to answer defensively, as well as fast mons being able to beat it with neutral moves once its chipped. However, as you pointed out above Roost sets are much harder to deal with and in my opinion are the thing that makes Lati an unhealthy presence in the tier. There are at most half a dozen defensive answers of which only one fits well onto offensive teams and even then if Scizor has some decent chip it dies to two Surfs/Thunderbolts. I think Latios is a really fun mon to use and would love to see it stay in the tier so if anyone has a good argument for it being a healthy presence in the tier I would love to hear it.

The burden of proof is on the people wanting it banned to prove it is broken and not the other way around. As others have pointed out the Latios CM set has mostly been theorymonning and even though we lack data in general that set is EXTREMELY lacking. While it is possible that it doesn't see any play because nobody knows about it, I have seen it a few times and what I will say is, unlike scary CM users like the Slowtwins or even Cresselia, Latios has pretty subpar defensive bulk and loses to status conditions and offensive pressure fairly easily. Any T-Wave or Scarfer can murk it which is something you can't say about the CM sweepers that I've actually seen. To tell you the truth, even his sister does a better job imo.

 

[Eeveeto]

I wouldn,t call CM Cresselia scary (Scizor stops it even easier than Latios if it has SD, plus its very susceptible to Trick, weather and the rare Toxic users,) but what QuickBH said is true, Latios might be scary with CM, but that leaves him with just 2 slots. What does he use?

-DM + Psychic = any Steel starting from Scizor walls and can use whatever they want (Heatran and Empoleon can use Roar, Jirachi can slow U-Turn into something like Weavile, etc.) Gardevoir also walls.
-DM + any move that is not Psychic = Clefable can CM along it, especially if its Unaware Clef.
-DM + Surf specifically = Well, you do beat Heatran, but Azumarill can use Belly Drum. You don,t want Azumarill to use Belly Drum.
-DM + Thunderbolt = Tyranitar comes in. Tyranitar is a good Mon, don,t underestimate him. If its Sdef, ok, Latios can just switch out. But Band also comes easily on this variant of CM Latios (and on any that doesn,t have Surf) and its not very easy to switch into BandTar.

CM Blissey also wins the CM war against any set unless a crit happens. TW Blissey might lose, but will cripple Latios permanently.

Overall, Latios looks way more dangerous in theory in theory than in practice. I have already mentioned many checks, so to not repeat myself, I will just speak about Scizor and Jirachi:
They are Steels. You need Steels in your team. This has been true since Adv OU and hasn,t changed much. 90% of good teams have at least one Steel, some have even 2 or 3. Even if Latios gets banned, Scizor will still be seen, Jirachi will still be seen and Heatran will still be used too. They are just as good. Maybe Scizor won,t be top 1 in usage without Latios, but he will still be in like top 5. If not for Latios, he is still there to check Latias, to check Alakazam, to check Mamoswine, to check Weavile, to counter any Clefable that doesn,t use a fire move. Its the best/one of the best Mons in the Tier and unless a massive metagame change happens (banning Latios is not massive, Latias will just replace him, though it will be a little weaker).

After all the posts in this thread and after all the laddering (prior, during and after the Suspect) I have done, I still fail to see how a Mon checked very well by one of the best and common Mons (best and common Mons regardless Latios's presence in the Tier) on top of having more (some soft, some hard) checks and good revenge killers like Weavile is much more broken than Alakazam, Gengar, LO Starmie or Nidoking. Or well, Manaphy, which is the actual Mon that should have been Quickbanned instead of Rain and the chicken.

 

[Lalaya]

I wouldn,t call CM Cresselia scary (Scizor stops it even easier than Latios if it has SD, plus its very susceptible to Trick, weather and the rare Toxic users,) but what QuickBH said is true, Latios might be scary with CM, but that leaves him with just 2 slots. What does he use?

-DM + Psychic = any Steel starting from Scizor walls and can use whatever they want (Heatran and Empoleon can use Roar, Jirachi can slow U-Turn into something like Weavile, etc.) Gardevoir also walls.
-DM + any move that is not Psychic = Clefable can CM along it, especially if its Unaware Clef.
-DM + Surf specifically = Well, you do beat Heatran, but Azumarill can use Belly Drum. You don,t want Azumarill to use Belly Drum.
-DM + Thunderbolt = Tyranitar comes in. Tyranitar is a good Mon, don,t underestimate him. If its Sdef, ok, Latios can just switch out. But Band also comes easily on this variant of CM Latios (and on any that doesn,t have Surf) and its not very easy to switch into BandTar.

CM Blissey also wins the CM war against any set unless a crit happens. TW Blissey might lose, but will cripple Latios permanently.

Overall, Latios looks way more dangerous in theory in theory than in practice. I have already mentioned many checks, so to not repeat myself, I will just speak about Scizor and Jirachi:
They are Steels. You need Steels in your team. This has been true since Adv OU and hasn,t changed much. 90% of good teams have at least one Steel, some have even 2 or 3. Even if Latios gets banned, Scizor will still be seen, Jirachi will still be seen and Heatran will still be used too. They are just as good. Maybe Scizor won,t be top 1 in usage without Latios, but he will still be in like top 5. If not for Latios, he is still there to check Latias, to check Alakazam, to check Mamoswine, to check Weavile, to counter any Clefable that doesn,t use a fire move. Its the best/one of the best Mons in the Tier and unless a massive metagame change happens (banning Latios is not massive, Latias will just replace him, though it will be a little weaker).

After all the posts in this thread and after all the laddering (prior, during and after the Suspect) I have done, I still fail to see how a Mon checked very well by one of the best and common Mons (best and common Mons regardless Latios's presence in the Tier) on top of having more (some soft, some hard) checks and good revenge killers like Weavile is much more broken than Alakazam, Gengar, LO Starmie or Nidoking. Or well, Manaphy, which is the actual Mon that should have been Quickbanned instead of Rain and the chicken.

cm roost 2 atks can also run dpulse or either of those combos since psychic + beam for example are still a good combo, you get walled by MOSTtm steels anyway
but anyway, point is that of all those steels only two are really long lasting in a game: Scizor and Rachi, and they're the only two that can recover damage or just grab momentum after Latios did his thing; all the others are just waiting to get nicked every time, and unless you have a really fat core of Blissey Clef and steel you don't really check it all game defensively, and if you need to check it defensively that means you have a team that would prolong the game enough that you might see Tios multiple times in it, which is the best way for him to shine on Roost sets, while checking it offensively is easier but at cost of one of your Pokèmon getting Meteor'd, and quite frankly Clefable is the only reason why we're not suffering from losing health on the Steels every time Latios enters in; furthermore, I forced lots of Scizor in either using Roost to recover off Specs/Soul Dew damage or just Uturn to not lose momentum, which is a iffy choice that could cost the game by itself, since maintaining offensive pressure is all the Latios user wants; also, while you're right on the Steel part, the point is that we're at a moment where we're forced to run SpDef Scizor/Rachi/Empoleon/Heatran in more balanced teams, just for the sake of not getting Meteor'd to death on most sets (basically, any non-scarfed Tios, which should be the common one, be Soul Dew, Orb or Specs), and that's the kind of teambuilder restriction I'd not like to run in, kinda like in SS OU Kyurem and Tapu Lele are two common reasons to run SpDef Ferro, AV Melmetal and stuff like that; and there are a lot more checks there than here-
basically what I'm saying is just that Latios is an unhealthy presence thriving off every team not running two steels or more, or Weavile and other Scarf rkillers (I'd also say Zam does it, but you sacrifice your Sash to do it)

(btw Chicken was way more broken than both Tios and Mana, although I'd argue all three can go away for good)

 

[Tuthur]

I don't remember having posted anything yet in this forum and on Latios. Now, that I got reqs and have been playing a fair amount of stall, balance, and hyper offense, I think I can provide a relevant opinion. Right below, you can see what I consider to be the viable Latios sets that you need to be prepared for.

sets

Calm Mind (Latios) (M) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic / Thunderbolt / Surf
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Mixed (Latios) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Psychic
- Recover

Choice Specs (Latios) (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Surf / Sleep Talk

Just like Eeveeto mentioned, there are good Latios check in the metagame, including Clefable, Blissey, Scizor, and Tyranitar. Also depending on the set Heatran, Empoleon, Mantine, Azumarill, Togekiss, and Magnezone can help, and there are also nicher options like Jirachi, Umbreon, and Shedinja. Those work pretty well in my experience as long as they aren't the sole answer in the team. Furthermore, Weavile, Alakazam, offensive Starmie, Mamoswine, and most Choice Scarf users can also revenge kill it, so there are definitely plenty of answers to it.

Tha said, every Scizor, Clefable, and Tyranitar set isn't dealing well with Latios. You need invests in special bulk to answer it well. While I think Scizor would still run bulky sets without Latios because of its good match up versus other special attackers like Zam, Gar, and Tias, I think Specially Defensive Clefable is awful outside of Unaware sets that are here to wall the very broken Manaphy and the obnoxious Alakazam. Some could argue Scizor gets trapped by Magnezone, but from experience playing Zone + Tios, it's not as easy as it seems. In deed, giving up physical bulk makes you a far worse check to all the other Dragons (Chomp, Dnite, Mence), Weavile, and Breloom. I also found specially defensive Tyranitar to be a huge momentum sink, and liked far more Choice Band and Dragon Dance sets, which aren't switching that reliably on Draco Meteor, Earthquake, and Surf from Latios. Also I have found pretty difficult to fit several of the aforementioned other defensive checks in a single team due to type and role overlaping.

Also using offense versus Latios is quite hard as you usually can't fit any Draco Meteor counter or even check bar Azumarill that gets nuked by Psychic / Thunderbolt. Revenge killing it isn't that hard as said as common offense Pokemon outspeed it and the Draco Meteor Special Attack drop can also create setup opportunities for threatening sweepers. Overall, I've found Latios to be tough match-up for offense but not an unlosable at all and it looked healthy to me.

My biggest issue is building balance since you're sort of forced to run Blissey or Specially Defensive Scizor if you don't want to get slapped by one of the common Latios set. Especially since these teams give quite a bunch of switch-in opportunities to Latios due to its decent bulk, incredible Speed, and good typing, unlike other balance breakers like Gengar, Nidoking, Alakazam, and Mamoswine that lack at least one of this (Manaphy matches them all but is even more broken so I'm not including it).

I'm currently leaning toward ban because I think Latios almost completely invalidates balance, but I don't think it is broken at all in other matchups. I could change my mind if more balance cores appeared. I wish Manaphy would have been suspect tested first, because this looks like the biggest issue in the tier to me and is also a reason why balance looks close to unviable to me.

 

[LittleSpookz]

There's not much left to say that hasn't been laid out in elaborate detail in at least one previous post so I'll keep my opinions brief

Latios is undoubtedly one of the most powerful and versatile threats in the metagame with access to an absurd variety of almost equally viable sets that in theory could let it beat any possible check (bar sp def Scizor ).

However every playstyle has multiple extremely viable checks (and some outright counters such as cm Blissey ) that both naturally thwart the most common Latios sets as well as being varied naturally excellent Pokémon that perform a wide variety of roles outside of check Latios who will naturally find themselves on a large range of teams.

Whether its sash Alakazam or scarf Gengar on HO/Offense; Blissey , Clefable , or Umbreon /Offensive Dark on Balance/Stall; or even Cresselia and sp def Gliscor on Semi Stall/BO every possible playstyle has a swath of excellent versatile and viable that will naturally fit onto those large variety of teams.

While Latios is capable of overwhelming anyone of these or any of its other check with well-planned support from its teammates or intelligent and aggressive play I find these to be the mark of a strong Pokémon not a broken one.

For these reasons I will be voting Do Not Ban

 

[Dlinkotorito]

the true is, latios is just a big problem in HO teams because specs latios is a good wallbreaker , and the checks of latios are bad mons in HO. but in defensive, balance and stall they are very good. jirachi umbreon, sp def scizor, bronzong ( hey gyro ball bronzong can makey 55% damage in latios, if is 0 speed ivs , and win roost latios in 1v1,), snorlax, blissey, registeel. but my point is, why hyper ofense need checks for wallbrakers? bro HO is... HO. all wallbrakers can destroy HO, no just latios.... if a mon can destroy all styles of teams he is broken, but if he can destroy just one style he is fine. and HO have good revenge killers like weavile,mamoswine, scizor ofense, gengar, starmie.


another thing: calm mind latios is good in theory, but in reallity not is pretty good because psych and DM, or Dragon Pulse and t-bolt are very limited coverage, and latios is so weak do physical mons in a mategame with ice shard spam. peoples not are using this in the meta just scarf or specs

 

[Megalobst]

the true is, latios is just a big problem in HO teams because specs latios is a good wallbreaker , and the checks of latios are bad mons in HO. but in defensive, balance and stall they are very good. jirachi umbreon, sp def scizor, bronzong ( hey gyro ball bronzong can makey 55% damage in latios, if is 0 speed ivs , and win roost latios in 1v1,), snorlax, blissey, registeel. but my point is, why hyper ofense need checks for wallbrakers? bro HO is... HO. all wallbrakers can destroy HO, no just latios.... if a mon can destroy all styles of teams he is broken, but if he can destroy just one style he is fine. and HO have good revenge killers like weavile,mamoswine, scizor ofense, gengar, starmie.

I'd second this opinion. NO BAN
Specs latios is the perfect wallbreaker but struggles against blissey and common steels such as empoleon, jirachi and to some extend scizor. Scarf Latios feels like a weaker and a bit cheesy which counter's it offensive checks and as a late game cleaner feels lackluster due to its limited coverage and power it misses from spec. Life orb latios gets worn down to easily into bp scizor or physical scarfers and the ice shard spammers range (mamoswine, weavile). Soul dew feels beter than life orb in that case but both orb and dew lack the raw power of specs and give way to bulky walls which would otherwise be dented by specs like spdef clef.

To add to my last point of keeping latios out of range of ice sharders which is a problem of life orb latios especially is that either 1 life orb proc (or SR chip if banded) is enough to get latios of the heaviest hithing ice sharder in the game Mamoswine:

252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 236-282 (78.4 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Edit: wanted to share my thoughts hope it haven't repeated someone else

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

Also, why SYNCHRONIZE of all abilities when you mention things that Shedinja must be wary of? I get Rough Skin and all, but there’s only one polemon that wants to run synchronize, and its the pokemon that has synchronize exclusively: mew. alakazam would rather run magic guard, gardevoir would rather run trace, umbreon prefers inner focus so it doesnt get flinch haxd, and espeon and xatu run magic bounce, which admittedly is a good countermeasure to clicking wisp, but those mons get shredded by shadow claw so whatevs.

Because one good prediction from your opponent is all it takes to end Shedinja. Also, now that you mention it, Magic Bounce is another thing that Shedinja needs to beware of. Which goes back to my point about how reliant on prediction Shedinja is. If it turns out your opponent doesn't have much of an answer to it, that's great, but... if their team is even half-decent, odds are they do.

if a mon can destroy all styles of teams he is broken, but if he can destroy just one style he is fine. and HO have good revenge killers like weavile,mamoswine, scizor ofense, gengar, starmie.

Unfortunately, this implies that Latios pretty much forces hyper offense to be used if you want to have a chance against it. If I have to run hyper offense or lose, that's the mark of an overcentralizing mon, and thus an argument in favor of a ban.

 

[JustInCaseD]

Unfortunately, this implies that Latios pretty much forces hyper offense to be used if you want to have a chance against it. If I have to run hyper offense or lose, that's the mark of an overcentralizing mon, and thus an argument in favor of a ban.

Pretty sure you're misreading something my friend. They're saying that Latios is only good against HO, not that HO is the only way to fight Lati. And while I woudn't agree that Latios is only strictly good against HO, it's pretty much definitive that more defensive squads and hard stall really don't mind Lati that much. They're almost over-equiped to handle it with the amount of resists and raw bulk they already naturally pack without intentionally accounting for it specifically. The Specs set is pretty easy to pivot and play around with these teams, and the LO set wears itself down fairly quickly and forces itself to roost of the damage it pivots into from resisted hits or rocks instead of attacking often enough. It could be argued that it's very difficult for HO specifically to deal with, sure. But thats one specific playstyle in the vacuum of the meta - and it's far from the most popular one. And even then they come equiped with plenty of options naturally - such as strong priority in Ice Shard, Sucker Punch, Bullet Punch, or Espeed. Latios doesn't force this upon them, they're already ran and gonna be run with or without it in the tier - which points to that ios is not a centralizing element.

 

[TSIM GI0]

I PLAY LATIOS, AND IS IT TOO STRONG. A LATIOS IN A TEAM = A UBER POKEMON IN OU

PLEASE BAN LATIOS

 

[Pais]

Hi guys, I've done the suspect and I've played now enough games to have a specific idea about Latios, and generally about the metagame. I think I'm going to vote no ban on Latios (I won't go in depth a lot):

• Having steel types + speed control most of the times is enough to punish Latios. I went 28-2 in the suspect ladder with a team that had no steel types and anyway I managed to beat latios with stuff like Blissey + Clefable. It's easy to play around Locked Latios, since a lot of mons can take advantage of that.
• We need Latios in the meta to punish dangerous threats like Infernape, Manaphy etc.

Obviously, this is just my opinion and even if Latios is really strong, I don't necessary think it should be banned. I'd look on stuff like Manaphy that with good bulkyness + tglow (sometimes you can find skill swap) can destroy most of archetypes. I think that the biggest issues of the meta are Manaphy and generally stall teams. Stall teams are not this broken, but unaware clefable generally gives insane support to every archetype right now and not only stall lol. I have not an accurate opinion at all on stall teams right now but I just find them strong in really a lot of match ups.

Cools mons that I tried on ladder and that I've seen in ladder:

Poliwrath (it's so fucking good to check scizor, weavile, heatran etc, just try it)
Tauros (really good coverage and can work vs most of balanced teams)
Abomasnow (it's hard to use but I like how mixed abomasnow sometimes can do something vs fat teams)
Slack Off Orb Infernape (mixed 3 atks can give do something to break fat teams)
Staraptor (A fucking beast if you want to 6-0 fat teams)
Togekiss (Unless you find zapdos stall it's a 6-0 to stall teams)
Raikou (CM+Scald+Tbolt is generally really good and has some support vs ground types too)

 

[Sputnik]

We need Latios in the meta to punish dangerous threats like Infernape, Manaphy etc.

Not really going to go huge into my own personal opinion (undecided, leaning ban), but I have to take exception to this point.

The main thing about this is just that we have Latias, who can do most of what Latios does except slightly worse. It's also bulkier and can check Infernape just as well if not better. Latias is also a better Scarfer due to Healing Wish and increased bulk (please for the love of god stop running Scarf Latios its such a waste) Specs Latias forces less damage onto Manaphy than Specs Latios does, sure, but I always thought Specs Latios was a very bandaid Mana answer at best and its far from the best option against it. It's also worth noting that Manaphy is borderline broken in its own right (If I remember correctly the council has already said they will have a look at it) The other points are valid but the idea that we need Latios for the utility it offers is a complete fallacy when Latias is right there and is arguably more effective than it at checking things like Infernape and Washtom

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

Having steel types + speed control most of the times is enough to punish Latios. I went 28-2 in the suspect ladder with a team that had no steel types and anyway I managed to beat latios with stuff like Blissey + Clefable. It's easy to play around Locked Latios, since a lot of mons can take advantage of that.

That's fine and dandy... until it turns out it's not locked into a move.

We need Latios in the meta to punish dangerous threats like Infernape, Manaphy etc.

That's a terrible anti-ban argument. We do not keep broken threats in the metagame to check other broken threats. Manaphy is itself broken, and the council has already stated that they'll be taking a look at it.

 

[KaenSoul]

Got my reqs with this team, fun experience for me, not my opponents. Stall feels really strong right now, but Zone prevents you from using Skarm and Mamoswine is really difficult to handle, but i like his impact in the tier.

https://pokepast.es/681205e67a0973b3
After playing for a while and finally deciding to ladder for reqs on this subject, i must say i dont really find Latios broken (DNB), its best match up seems to be HO where is kind of hard to switch into but is set up fodder for stuff like BD Azumarill, SD Scizor and is pretty easy to revenge kill thanks to ice types, Alakazam, and some others. But is not that different from other top tier threats, CB Infernape is just as annoying to switch into when playing HO, Mamoswine just gets a kill everytime something cant ko it first or is slower. The main difference here is Latios speed, but it just doesnt seem enough to me.
More defensive teams can easly handle Latios, got reqs with hard stall and i never really had a problem with him, and it doesnt seem that hard to fit some checks on balance teams and the like, since the drizzle ban i havent really had any trouble with Latios.
Some people say than non-choice Latios is more dangerous to non-HO teams, but when reducing your coverage options is much easier to handle, a lot of stuff can pivot and see what it can do before giving a kill.
Wouldnt mind if it gets banned either, but i think the tier is fine right now, would like something done with Magnet Pull, but the tier can stay the same until HOME movepool changes and it would be fine.

 

[C05ta]

Ban Latios, Manaphy, and Clef or none of them.

 

[Finchinator]

Latios seems mostly fine on the ladder because every single team is either bulky Blissey stuff, Scizor balance, or a HO with Ice Shard, a Steel, and a revenge killer, but I feel like it is largely this way due to the stronghold Latios has on the metagame itself.

Latios is one of the most restrictive Pokemon in the tier and while it has checks, which Eeveeto and others allude to, not too many of them are very practical, which causes playstyles to repetitively bank on the most practical checks and limits them as a consequence. Suddenly we start seeing the same cores repeatedly and even then Latios has ways to force some progress, but sure it is contained.

Does this put it in broken territory? My personal belief is yes. It is very obvious that it has a massive strain on building and if you ease up a little bit it will get out of hand, much like it was for the first week or so of the metagame when people had looser teambuilding conventions. I get why people would say otherwise because it is easy to slap on these cores and the metagame is closer to stable now than it was in the very early stages for sure despite Latios still being in the tier, but Latios going opens up teambuilding and validates a ton of different things both directly and indirectly -- keep in mind that Scizor or Blissey can only work well with so many Pokemon, so there absolutely is a chain reaction here.

I will be voting ban, but I expect it to be close prob.

 

[gaobear]

Latios seems mostly fine on the ladder because every single team is either bulky Blissey stuff, Scizor balance, or a HO with Ice Shard, a Steel, and a revenge killer, but I feel like it is largely this way due to the stronghold Latios has on the metagame itself.

plenty of other viable checks. tran, rachi, spdef mew. I used slowking to get reqs.

like eeveeto said, 90% of good teams since the dawn of time have a steel. not such a radical idea imo.

DNB

 

[Tuthur]

plenty of other viable checks. tran, rachi, spdef mew. I used slowking to get reqs.

like eeveeto said, 90% of good teams since the dawn of time have a steel. not such a radical idea imo.

DNB

First Jirachi is a mediocre Pokemon. I've been using it a ton and it just invites everything in; Gliscor, Garchomp, Scizor, Heatran, Skarmory, Feraligatr, Manaphy... It is one of the most mediocre Stealth Rock user in the tier because it loses to every hazard remover, even if Starmie doesn't enjoy U-turn that much. Jirachi is indeed able to come on most Latios sets (LO Earthquake is dealing quite a lot), however it is a liability for a lot of balance team to have such a Pokemon that invites in every offensive threat and is just a U-turn machine.

Then Heatran. Recover Latios doesn't care at all about Heatran, especially if it has Calm Mind. Also you probably never have switched your Heatran into Surf or Earthquake Latios, this Pokemon ain't kidding.
4 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 328-390 (84.9 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 204-240 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I have no experience playing or facing Specially Defensive Mew, so I can't talk much about it. It may be an hidden gem that no one is using currently, but I would tend to say it is just a niche Pokemon at best.

Slowking is also getting owned by Recover variants of Latios due to Slowking being unable to do anything to Latios but statusing it with Thunder Wave / Yawn. While this can work, if Latios gets burned switching into your Scald or just switches out as you click Yawn, it doesn't work. Unless you run Nasty Plot or Calm Mind with Ice Beam (does anyone run that?), you're not going to threaten back Latios (0 SpA Slowking Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 120-142 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). While in return Latios does more than Regenerator heals with Thunderbolt and Draco Meteor, and can even setup on you with Calm Mind.

Those Pokemon are hard to justify even with Latios around or don't even handle it well! Finchinator is right in his analysis: if you run something defensive you have to run Blissey, Scizor, or Specially Defensive Clefable. If you use offense, you're running Ice Shard + a Steel + a revenge killer. You can think this is not so restrictive (what I disagree with), but no way you can say there are other options and mention craps like the one you mentioned.

low blow

Congrats on reqs! Nice Slowking we see on the team you used!

 

[theotherguytm]

tran

Honestly a terrible check IMO. Mixed LO obviously just wipes it out, CM walls it to hell and back bar Roar (lol), one Specs Surf makes sure Heatran will never switch in again, and Heatran is just in general bad rn due to everything throwing out EQs and CCs, plus easy to chip down.
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 62-73 (20.5 - 24.2%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and trapping damage
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 42-49 (13.9 - 16.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and trapping damage
+4 252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 201-237 (52 - 61.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

rachi

Does nothing but U-turn, see:

Ice Shard, a Steel, and a revenge killer

Also IMO Shadow Ball on Specs is really nice as a general midground against everything bar Blissey and just invalidates this.

spdef mew

Dimestore Jirachi, and Jirachi is already pretty bad.

slowking

This isn't viable. Maybe if it had Dragon Tail still AV could work, but right now this is just a momentum sink that does nothing to anything and commits you to a Specially bulky Water that gets steamrolled by Manaphy, while inviting in either every physical Dragon in the game or every Dark in the game. Banded Ttar is a bad mon to give free ins to. Also this manages to lose to all Specs versions and CM.

like eeveeto said, 90% of good teams since the dawn of time have a steel. not such a radical idea imo.

The problem is that these Steels mostly get steamrolled by Latios's coverage or turned into setup fodder. Only really Scizor and Jirachi can reliably park in front of it long-term, but that's all they do, park there and either wait to get crit or U-turn out to a revenge killer and pray they have an opening to heal up later.