np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

[jrod88]

So as far as im concerned a Lando with U turn is as equally deadly and game breaking as lando with RP, provided the Lando has its usual teammates? ( such as ttar)

The way i see it, Lando with keldeo and ttar is the most deadly type of Lando ( and combos) considering that RP lando cannot u turn without losing much needed coverage. But, despite the lifeorb boost and sheer force sometimes i find lando unable to OHKO things and thus suffers from revenge killing. This may not be often the case but i think its notable when analyzing the type of lando you are facing.

As far as u turn lando goes, it cant sweep reliably either BUT it can certainly put a TON of pressure onto the opponent. U turn is NOt a 50/50, the landorus user has the upper hand in that situation as previously explained before. And with the proper team support (ttar) lando can overcome the FEW counters it has and proceed to mess shit up.

Consider this all in all id have to say lando is just broken lol to few counters that it can u turn and trap and its lack of stealth rock weakness and immunity to t spikes/spikes with those stats moverpool and ability, i wont be surprised if landorus is banned.

 

[phantom]

The fact of that matter is that Tyranitar's support makes a lot of shit broken or incredibly hard to deal with. See: Landorus, Keldeo, Breloom, ect. Tyranitar is without a doubt broken itself b/c of its ability to push two Pokemon over the edge and provide insane support. But this suspect test isn't about Tyranitar and quite frankly, it'll probably never be suspected in gen 5. That's kinda why I want to ban Landorus and Keldeo. If I can't get rid of the integral aspect of the core, I might as well start chopping it away and hope for the best. That's how I feel about it personally. But I don't blame the council for this. People only started to realize that Tar was the problem halfway through the suspect. =/ Though to be honest, I do think Landorus is still somewhat of an annoyance given its ability to manhandle sun teams and sand stall, and Keldeo is already kind of insane with rain support. So idk, I think suspecting both was still warranted, but if Tyranitar didn't exist, then I'm not sure if they would be broken.

@Shurtugal, Read my post. There is reason why Tar wasn't suspected. And seriously, a fighting-type weakness doesn't mean squat when a Pokemon is broken under the supportive aspect. See, ingrain smeargle in ADV. It wasn't broken on its own, but the support it provided to its teammates pushed it onto a whole new level. You look at how things interact with the meta as a whole. This game isn't 1 vs 1, it's 6 vs 6 with varying strategies and possible situations. You have to look at the bigger picture here.

 

[Lady Alex]

@Lady Alex:

Tentacruel is a stall mon. I talk from an offensive point of view.

Let us say its Breloom vs. Landorus instead, with the same partners. Bullet Seed from Breloom can easily smack Landorus a lot, but he can U-turn into Celebi so it doesn't have any risk per say in using it, right? However, if I see U-turn as an offensive player rather than RP, I don't fear it as much since its much easier for offensive team to beat down on a slow, mediocre defensive Pokemon.

All offensive Pokemon can threaten Landorus to a 2HKO, and I'm an HO player. I asked for stall comments, and if you want to say stuff like Blissey / Chansey / Jirachi / Tentacruel, than that is fine, but please don't say my argument is wrong because you can replace Terrakion for any offensive Pokemon and seeing U-turn won't change the fact that its easier for an offensive team to maneuver around it.

I never said that your argument was wrong. I said it wasn't a practical scenario to illustrate how powerful U-turn Landorus is. Sure, a team of Custap skarmory/Thundurus-T/Mamoswine/Latios/Alakazam/Scizor isn't going to be particularly afraid of the U-turn variant, since There isn't even anything on the team it can threaten, but, aside from HO teams, the U-turn variant is exceedingly potent, since many balance and defensive teams rely on pokemon who can come in and take a hit to deal with it, such as Celebi or Latias. The existence of Tyranitar completely invalidates the way these kind of teams deal with Landorus.

 

[Shurtugal]

@Icecream:

If TTar is the one broken, we should be suspecting that (if it's for reasons OTHER than weather support). You don't ban a non-broken Pokemon specifically to make one Pokemon less broken. That'd be like banning Dugtrio to make Genesect more prone to Heatran.

With the concepts of weather, this is arguably different, but it's not because it's TTar's prowress / role other than weather in general in question, and TTar is suspectable to fighting and so much other stuff I shouldn't have to mention that I feel it isn't broken either.

@Lady Alex:

Okay, so I guess you misread my post then! :) I never tried to imply that U-turn Landorus didn't break stall, rather, I admit it might in my post. I just said that seeing U-turn on an offensive team is not as potent and the RP set can be played around more easily than currently given credit for offensive teams.

You agreed with me.

As for the stall component, I didn't find any difference on Suspect from Current with the absence of Landorus because stall is threatened by millions of other things as well. Ultimately, like I said in my other post, I wasn't sure if Landorus's ability to break stall made him broken since lots of other Pokemon share this trait and I haven't noticed any differences on the ladder. Perhaps if anyone can try to support the idea that the removal of Landorus changes the metagame in a way that makes stall noticeably more useable than before, I'd be more adept to agree with his ban.

For example, has this removal of (on paper, anyway) "Broken" U-turn Landorus, make stall any more viable than before? Also, I play a bit of balance myself, and running EB Keldeo or SubSalac Terrakion (which can be seen on Balanced) or SDef Rotom-W, you can still somewhat check U-turn Landorus. Especially since hazards can wear it down to Terrakion's SE KO or Keldeo's surf or Wash can Hydro (FB varies on 2-3HKO ratio depending on the spread ran). Hell, even Gengar can run LO Focus Blast to tear TTar apart (hazards make it so chople won't live). I still concede that I cannot speak for stall, but I do run a little balance and I think it has enough answers to both sets on its own.

 

[jrod88]

how is ttar the broken part of keld/lando/ttar? hes the only one of the 3 that lacks superb coverage and extremely versatile hard hitting power. keld and lando are/have been suspects in the past and theyre the two pokemon that get the most complaints (besides maybe kyu-b) in all of ou, keld can hit from both sides of the spectrum and is stupidly strong whereas lando has unrivaled power from sheer force and can uturn away half its shaky checks. ttar merely is the glue that holds the two extremely powerful pokemon together, evidenced by the fact that it can be and has been passed over multiple times for scizor, weavile, and other pursuit trappers. ttars only real advantages over the other two are huge offensive prowess and sand boosting the sdef so it can switch into latias/latios (usually) without fear. sciz has uturn and priority plus great typing, weavile has great speed and priority. ttar cant boast any of that. basically yes we understand ttar is really good especially coupled with lando and keldeo but overall it is definitely the weakest link and can be replaced with little to no detriment depending on the needs of the respective team.

Like lavos said ttar is not broken because it provides a role in the core which can be filled by other pursuit users like weavile and scizor. Even without a pursuit user landorus on its own can devastate teams and escape its checks while preserving momentum for the lando user. U turn from landorus is not to be underestimated as it heavily damages two of its most common checks celebi and latias.

 

[Lady Alex]

Tyranitar isn't broken. It's always been able to pursuit trap things like Lati twins and Celebi, but Landorus abuses this role so heavily, since it's most reliable switch-ins happen to be Celebi and Latias, and murders a huge portion of the metagame because of this relatively niche support function that Tyranitar provides. Politoed, for example, provided the rain support that pokemon like Kabutops and Kingdra used to dominate the metagame during the brief period where Drizzle + swift swim was allowed. The combination was banned because Politoed and the support it provided were not considered broken, but the swift swimmers who abused this support were broken (granted, it's a very common opinion that Politoed is the broken one, but that wasn't the conclusion that was reached).

 

[phantom]

Like lavos said ttar is not broken because it provides a role in the core which can be filled by other pursuit users like weavile and scizor.

Like, lavos was wrong. See everyone who replied to that post. Goth and lol Weavile are no way on the same level as tar. Scizor can't trap Celebi and the Latis, it's 2HKOd by an uninvested HP Fire lol. All three can't take a SE hit and are much easier to play around. Not to mention that goth and weavile just can't fit on every team. One can tank weak SE STABs, the others cannot. That's the difference. Tar is bulkier, can provide more support in SR and residual damage, AND is stronger than the all three (in terms of trapping). It isn't replaced as easily as you're making it out to be. That's pretty darn naive to say so.

 

[jrod88]

Yes but you compared ttar to smeargle in ADV but tyranitar is a diverse pokemon that isnt only used to support lando and keldeo.It can be a lead with stealth rock for sand teams ( where its definitely not broken ) it can be choice scarfed ( where its also not broken ) it can run dd and all sorts of stuff its been doing for a long time and it most certainly is not broken. Like Shurtugal said its like banning dugtrio to justify genesect as being not broken. You cant ban a pokemon for a role it already has ( a role thats not broken ).

ban ttar and lando is still broken, ban lando and ttar is still not broken.

 

[Shurtugal]

1. I said that. Not Lady Alex.

2. Without TTar Landorus cannot beat its checks or counters as reliably as you insinuate in your last posts. So don't over exaggerate its abilities, thank you. So, technically, if you ban TTar, Lando is manageable.

3. Like others have said, no Pokemon pursuit traps nearly as well as TTar is doing and cannot be replaced.

 

[phantom]

Yes but you compared ttar to smeargle in ADV but tyranitar is a diverse pokemon that isnt only used to support lando and keldeo.It can be a lead with stealth rock for sand teams ( where its definitely not broken )

Wtf? How does the even matter? Who gives a shit if its other aspects aren't broken. One broken role is ALL you need to justify a ban. And quite frankly, the whole Dugtrio and Genesect is example is just retarded and shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Genesect has ONE solid counter that it just could beat anyway. It was broken regardless of Dugtrio. Tar pushes both Keldeo and Landorus with its SUPPORT. Unlike Genesect, you can't guarantee that the other two are still broken without the support. That's the fucking difference here.

@Shurtugal, see the quote and please, for the last time, reread my previous post. I was NOT replying to you in this one. You obviously don't understand how something can be broken supportively. So I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Shurtugal]

I know that it was broken anyway, that wasn't the point. I was just pointing out that you can't ban one Pokemon because another Pokemon is broken. That is simply retarded and proves you do not know what you are talking about. Also, I do not understand how you can call Tyranitar broken when things like Keldeo and Terrakion and Breloom exist. At all.

Edit: I explain why I feel the support is not enough to warrant a ban in my previous posts. Thank you. (I do apologize for the misunderstanding, however.)

Edit2: I want to get sleep so I will refrain from responding to any posts until much later tomorrow! :)

Here is why

(Hey, I am in Washington DC / Vacation right now! I'd rather get sleep for tomorrow than fend off my points :P)

 

[-Sparkbeat-]

You don't ban something because it can get rid of something else's counters reliably. By that logic we need to ban Dugtrio since it can trap Tyranitar for sun teams. Oh, and Gothitelle since it can trap Scizor locked into Bullet Punch for Terrakion. Same for Wobbufett. Just, no. Tyranitar isn't close to being broken. It gets revenged by nearly everything, burned by anything with Will-o-Wisp, and is set up bait once it's locked into Pursuit. It can preform one role very well. So can Scizor. So can Rotom-W. We aren't talking about banning them. Landorus is dangerous because it's so damn versatile, and it can U-turn to trap and remove its checks and counters. It also makes nearly everything 50/50, which is annoying and is very unhealthy for the metagame. Same for Keldeo but swap U-Turn for double switch. Here's the kicker though - Take away Tyranitar, and while Scizor and Weavile may not be as good, they can still come in off of a Landorus's U-turn without taking damage and Pursuit trap whatever comes in. So the almighty Keldeo/Landorus/Pursuit core lives on, a non-broken Pokemon has been banned for no good reason, and one of sand's best counters to sun is gone. Take away Landorus (And possibly Keldeo as well) and the core everyone loves to use and hates to face is gone, and more skill is added back to the game, rather than the coinflip game we're playing now. We're also supposed to be looking at the Pokemon through a vacuum, and if you look at Tyranitar like that, it becomes a very meh Pokemon. Look at Landorus like that and it's still a potent threat that can 2HKO the whole metagame, and can escape from it's counters via U-Turn.

 

[Lady Alex]

@Icecream:

If TTar is the one broken, we should be suspecting that (if it's for reasons OTHER than weather support). You don't ban a non-broken Pokemon specifically to make one Pokemon less broken. That'd be like banning Dugtrio to make Genesect more prone to Heatran.

With the concepts of weather, this is arguably different, but it's not because it's TTar's prowress / role other than weather in general in question, and TTar is suspectable to fighting and so much other stuff I shouldn't have to mention that I feel it isn't broken either.

@Lady Alex:

Okay, so I guess you misread my post then! :) I never tried to imply that U-turn Landorus didn't break stall, rather, I admit it might in my post. I just said that seeing U-turn on an offensive team is not as potent and the RP set can be played around more easily than currently given credit for offensive teams.

You agreed with me.

As for the stall component, I didn't find any difference on Suspect from Current with the absence of Landorus because stall is threatened by millions of other things as well. Ultimately, like I said in my other post, I wasn't sure if Landorus's ability to break stall made him broken since lots of other Pokemon share this trait and I haven't noticed any differences on the ladder. Perhaps if anyone can try to support the idea that the removal of Landorus changes the metagame in a way that makes stall noticeably more useable than before, I'd be more adept to agree with his ban.

For example, has this removal of (on paper, anyway) "Broken" U-turn Landorus, make stall any more viable than before? Also, I play a bit of balance myself, and running EB Keldeo or SubSalac Terrakion (which can be seen on Balanced) or SDef Rotom-W, you can still somewhat check U-turn Landorus. Especially since hazards can wear it down to Terrakion's SE KO or Keldeo's surf or Wash can Hydro (FB varies on 2-3HKO ratio depending on the spread ran). Hell, even Gengar can run LO Focus Blast to tear TTar apart (hazards make it so chople won't live). I still concede that I cannot speak for stall, but I do run a little balance and I think it has enough answers to both sets on its own.

No. I didn't misread your post. I just pointed out that your example with Terrakion vs U-turn Landorus was poor and that it underplays its effectiveness. Nothing else.

"pure stall" barely exists because, as you said, there are things besides Landorus that inhibit stall. I didn't even mention "stall" in my post. I doubt you're going to find evidence that stall is going to "be noticeably more usable than before," because, in all honesty, it's not going to be. But that doesn't matter. Landorus's ability to poop on most of the metagame in addition to single handedly beating stall by itself is what makes it a problem. The pokemon you mention can check it *decently,* but none of them are particularly reliable. Where you think Balance has enough answers to both sets, I simply disagree and find that checking it is unreliable to a point that its banworthy.

 

[phantom]

You don't ban something because it can get rid of something else's counters reliably. By that logic we need to ban Dugtrio since it can trap Tyranitar for sun teams. Oh, and Gothitelle since it can trap Scizor locked into Bullet Punch for Terrakion. Same for Wobbufett.

Yeah, you do. It's been done before and shows good results. Trapping abilities are pretty fucking ridiculous, there was a reason why wobbufett was banned from gen 3 to 4 and banned in UU. Put on your thinking cap for a change. Goth was banned from UU for the exact reasons you stated. It pushed things like Darma and Herra to fucking ridiculous levels. As you could no longer counter the two. Instead of banning half of UU, the UU senate was smart enough to just ban the fucking culprit, Gothitelle. I don't understand why you can't comprehend that. Instead of banning 2 Pokemon, why don't we just ban the one that makes them overpowered? Your logic is the only thing that makes no sense here. Also please use your brain and try to fucking understand that mediocre shit like weavile is not as good as TTar, quit acting like it can be replaced as easily. Read my previous posts for a better understanding of that.

goth and weavile just can't fit on every team as easily. One can tank weak SE STABs, the others cannot. That's the difference. Tar is bulkier, can provide more support in SR and residual damage, AND is stronger

 

[-Sparkbeat-]

Yeah, you do. Trapping abilities are pretty fucking ridiculous, there was a reason why wobbufett was banned from gen 3 to 4 and banned in UU. Put on your thinking cap for a change. Goth was banned from UU for the exact reasons you stated. It pushed things like Darma and Herra to fucking ridiculous levels. As you could no longer counter the two. Instead of banning half of UU, the UU senate was smart enough to just ban the fucking culprit, Gothitelle. I don't understand why you can't comprehend that. Instead of banning 2 Pokemon, why don't we just ban the one that makes them overpowered? Your logic is the only thing that makes no sense here.

1) In Gen 4 there was no Team Preview, so trapping was unexpected and you literally could do nothing to stop it. With team preview you can cross switch.
2) Tyranitar doesn't trap half of the OU tier, it reliably traps and beats about 3 Pokemon (Lati@s and Jellicent), as Celebi has Baton Pass and Gengar rapes it with Focus Blast.
3) Because removing Tyranitar won't fix much. As I said in my post which I assume you stopped reading after the first few sentences, people will just start using other Pursuit users who won't be as good as Tyranitar, but will still get the job done. Even without a Pursuit trapper, Landorus can wear down its counters with U-Turn (Lati's) and Earth Power (Jellicent), which can set up Keldeo for an easy sweep. Keldeo will still be able to spam Hydro Pump in rain with Tyranitar gone, which is one of the things that makes Keldeo suspect worthy, but this isn't the thread for that. You'll also have effectively killed off sand offense for no good reason.
4) I didn't say Goth, Weavile, and Scizor were as good as Ttar, but you can't deny that they can come in off of Landorus's U-Turn with a Lati or Jelli switches in, and Pursuit trap it.

 

[jrod88]

Okay, but what I'm saying is that tyranitars role as a pursuit trapper isn't broken because it only is broken when used with landorus. Take landorus out of the picture. Is tyranitars role as a pursuit trapper broken enough to you to ban it? Landorus abuses that role, tyranitar simply provides it like it has been, therefore if either of them should be banned, it should be the abuser ( landorus) not the provider ( tyranitar ).

 

[phantom]

1) In Gen 4 there was no Team Preview, so trapping was unexpected and you literally could do nothing to stop it. With team preview you can cross switch.

Doesn't change the fact that goth and woba were banned in uu.

2) Tyranitar doesn't trap half of the OU tier

But what it does trap is arguably just as significant. Celebi and Latias are some of the best defensive Pokemon in OU, trapping them reliably is huge.

3) Because removing Tyranitar won't fix much.

L O L. You don't even know that. Quit theorymonning.

As I said in my post which I assume you stopped reading after the first few sentences

Maybe you should listen to your own advice and read my post which explains why your argument is crap.

people will just start using other Pursuit users who won't be as good as Tyranitar, but will still get the job done.

There you go, you proved my point. They don't work as well and aren't consistent. Why? They're frailer, don't fit into teams as easily, are weaker, and don't provide as much support as SR and residual sand damage does.

Even without a Pursuit trapper, Landorus can wear down its counters with U-Turn (Lati's)

LOL Latis outspeed and OHKO, idek wtf you're talking about. Also U-turn lando is a wallbreaker, not a sweeper.

and Earth Power (Jellicent)

Who the fuck is stupid enough to leave a jellicent in on a landorus, especially when Keldeo is still alive. Moot point.

You'll also have effectively killed off sand offense for no good reason.

Again, quit theorymonning, you don't know any of that. And the reason is to not make excessive bans. Which is good enough imo.

Okay, but what I'm saying is that tyranitars role as a pursuit trapper isn't broken because it only is broken when used with landorus.

No tyranitar also shits on Keldeo and Breloom's counters as well. It doesn't support just one Pokemon.

 

[jrod88]

Its true ttar effectively pursuit traps keldeos counters and landoruss counters but keep in mind that lando is suspect righ now and keldeo is also going to be suspect, not everything tyranitar supports is suspect because lando is the prime abuser of this role. How many pokemon heavily abuse ttars role so bad that ttar has to be banned? Breloom-ttar sure ain't broke, but lando-ttar is and its not so easy to break. I really don't think ttar should be banned for a role that certainly is not broken. Ttars been trapping things for a while and its only until now where this combo with lando is ttar even being questioned. Can't you see? Its lando not ttar that should be banned.

 

[-Sparkbeat-]

L O L. You don't even know that. Quit theorymonning.

That's all we can do since Tyranitar would never be banned. Also check out some of the popular offensive teams, many use Scizor thanks to its Steel typing and because it can revenge and Pursuit trap the Lati's.

There you go, you proved my point. They don't work as well and aren't consistent. Why? They're frailer, don't fit into teams as easily, are weaker, and don't provide as much support as SR and residual sand damage does.

Notice what comes right after that, "They will still get the job done"

LOL Latis outspeed and OHKO, idek wtf you're talking about. Also U-turn lando is a wallbreaker, not a sweeper. Who the fuck is stupid enough to leave a jellicent in on a landorus, especially when Keldeo is still alive. Moot point.

I'm talking about the Lati's Switching into Landorus like they usually do. Who switched Landorus into the Lati's... And everyone here knows you don't sweep with U-turn lando smh. I'm talking about a possible Jellicent switching into Landorus, which I've seen happen quite a lot if the opponent still believes you may be running the RP set, and they want to keep their Lati alive.

Again, quit theorymonning, you don't know any of that. And the reason is to not make excessive bans. Which is good enough imo.

Anyone who has played Sand Offense before knows Ttar is much better than Hippo for it since ya know, its offense. And there's a difference between excessive and necessary. This is necessary for the overall health and competitiveness of the metagame. Suspecting Ttar isn't.

 

[kokoloko]

lol and i thought the uu suspect threads were bad...

anyway, i used to be of the opinion that landorus was undoubtedly broken, but after playing in wcop, watching a bunch of wcop games, and laddering for reqs, i'm not so sure anymore. which is crazy because i usually think pretty much every suspect is broken. whatever.

mind you i'm not saying its not broken/banworthy, i'm just not sure. like, the generic keldeo/lando/ttar or scizor core is so common that the metagame (the relevant metagame, anyway) has evolved to the point where it's become more of a liability than anything else. rp lando almost never gets to set up and sweep because offensive teams rarely give it enough room to do so, and if it does, there's usually something like hp ice sash zam / CB nite / CB scizor / mamo waiting to revenge it. and dont give me that "if it needs to be revenged it's already done it's job" bs because that doesnt apply a vast majority of the time with offense. u-turn lando is almost as non-threatening to offense and gives balanced teams some issues, but like... so do a bunch of other things. stall is just never going to be a thing in the relevant bw2 ou so i wont even get into that.

that being said, landorus is really fucking strong, and the team i've been using gives it like 0 breathing room, so i could very well be wrong. its likely i'll change my mind again if i try building another good team and notice a lot of things that i cant use because they make it lando weak or something. dunno, seems likely.

but really, i feel sorry for ou mods after reading some of the posts in this thread lol like why are people even talking about cm lando ?_?

 

[Nysyr]

As powerful as special lando-i is, I kind feel it's a bit underwhelming if you aren't running full stall. I guess its a question of if we want to rescue a playstyle by removing the major core of offense as it stands right now.

I can see a physical lando-i doing major work in this meta right now, maybe even better in the core than special lando-i is.

Terrible match I had, but it shows kinda how little trouble I had with Lando-I. Sorry for all the mistakes lol.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-35949606

 

[yee]

stall is just never going to be a thing in the relevant bw2 ou so i wont even get into that.

Literally all you have to do is remove Lando / Keldeo / maybe Kyu-B and it's back where it was. It worked all BW1 and can still get by if it has fast stuff right now, even just removing Lando makes it fully competitive.

Edit- I should clarify I mean in the classic BW "be careful with the matchup you expect" sense, but it is fine there.

 

[reyscarface]

your opponent not only used a shitty lando set, but was bad as well.

really if we are going to base our opinion on whether lando is too strong or not on shitty ladder matches against people that dont know what EVs are, of course he will seem underwhelming

try playing a good player using lando and then youll see how good it actually is

 

[Honus]

Literally all you have to do is remove Lando / Keldeo / maybe Kyu-B and it's back where it was. It worked all BW1 and can still get by if it has fast stuff right now, even just removing Lando makes it fully competitive.

Edit- I should clarify I mean in the classic BW "be careful with the matchup you expect" sense, but it is fine there.

i don't think keldeo is as huge a threat for stall as landorus and kyurem b [i put breloom in this category as well but that could just be me not liking it], since you have spikes and often at least 2 counters to it on a stall team, it's definitely a lot easier i think to stop Keld/Pursuiter than Keld/Lando/Pursuiter, but you do have a really valid point in your post, yee, and as someone who really liked stall in bw1 and still play it occasionally; i've been really disappoiinted with how slow it's been to make some bans to balance out the field for defense in bw2, despite it being such a simple task

 

[Nysyr]

your opponent not only used a shitty lando set, but was bad as well.

really if we are going to base our opinion on whether lando is too strong or not on shitty ladder matches against people that dont know what EVs are, of course he will seem underwhelming

try playing a good player using lando and then youll see how good it actually is

I'm aware he wasn't the best, just pointing out if lando-i was the god he was made out to be, the second he got in on heatran i might as well have lost.

I mean if the most threatening thing lando-i can do for the core is boost its speed or u-turn, why wouldn't sandforce LO/EB/Band/Scarf/Whatever fit into the core just as well?

i don't think keldeo is as huge a threat for stall as landorus and kyurem b [i put breloom in this category as well but that could just be me not liking it], since you have spikes and often at least 2 counters to it on a stall team, it's definitely a lot easier i think to stop Keld/Pursuiter than Keld/Lando/Pursuiter, but you do have a really valid point in your post, yee, and as someone who really liked stall in bw1 and still play it occasionally; i've been really disappoiinted with how slow it's been to make some bans to balance out the field for defense in bw2, despite it being such a simple task

Keldeo is easily handled by stall (even rainstall should have 2 things to stop specs in rain, in tenta and filler). Its Lando-I's coverage and power that puts a dent in stall.