np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

[PK Gaming]

This has gone on for long enough.

Curtains, your posts have been countered, torn apart, and invalidated by a few dozen players who are far better in game than you are, have been playing for far longer, and have a far better and more complete idea of the game balance state at the moment. Even considering all of that, you still have the gall to insist that you're right above everyone else. What is more likely? That you are a stubborn player who has an incorrect view of the metagame, or a decent number of fairly skilled and very experienced Pokemon players being downright wrong? Ask yourself that, then shut up if you have any sense at all.

I'm reinstating the blacklist system. You are not allowed to post in this thread from this point on.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

While laddering on the suspect ladder, I saw an increase of scarf Jirachi's and physically defensive Gastrodon. I guess I can understand Gastrodon, as it's a "decent" check to Keldeo, and an increase in Scarf Jirachi makes sense too. Anyone else seeing an increase in Gastrodon and Jirachi's?

 

[Lady Alex]

I mostly saw the typical specially defensive Jirachi. I did run across more Fire Punch variants than usual, but I rarely saw Scarf Jirachi. I ran into a Specs Gastrodon yesterday, but none other than that. I see a lot more stall at the upper end of the Suspect Ladder, though, which is a nice change of pace.

 

[blingi]

loses to CM Latias 10/10 times

plus you give up momentum (Ground/Flying is a mediocre defensive typing) and are easily killed by anything with scarf or naturally faster, especially since you cannot U-Turn out.

That's just removing every merit of Landorus we're basing this suspect test on.

Only if you look at these two in a vacuum.
In my opinion, stall with CM Latias as its check loses to CM Lando (almost) 100% of the time.

Just imagine the following realistic scenario. If there is something I didn't consider, please point it out:

The Landorus player sent in Landorus against something that can't stay in (most of the stall player's team probably falls under this criterium).
As the stall player switches to Latias, he just sets up a calm mind.
Now the Landorus user can just switch to Ttar as the Latias player probably uses a calm mind of his own, attempting to win the CM war, and is now in a situation where his Latias (which can't touch Ttar with the CM set after one boost) will most likely die.
The only way he could have prevented this would have been to switch his only check against a +1 Landorus out which would instantly lose him the game if the other player doesn't switch to Ttar.
It's basically a 50:50 where the stall player instantly loses for losing the coin flip while the stall player gains one free turn on his Ttar check/counter if he predicted the switch correctly.
Since this situation can and will most likely occur more than once during a match, it's very hard and luck dependant for the stall player to actually win this matchup.

 

[George Eliot]

Yessss...but that situation takes place with any special Lando + Tar combination, it's not unique to Calm Mind. U-turn > Calm Mind actually does a much better job. Really all Calm Mind is good for is breaking pure defensive teams a little bit easier, which is pointless considering a) pure defensive teams are still broken easily in general by non-CM LandTar, and b) pure defensive teams are incredibly rare. Stall or semistall get's more common higher on the ladder, but virtually every one runs Stoutland / powerful priority / Scarfer, preventing Calm Mind from being worthwhile.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

For the record I climbed the ladder with stall to get regs, I know that isn't much of an accomplishment on PS, but stall still works if you build the team correctly. Landorus isn't that much of a problem to stall, its not like banning it will bring it back into the limelight overnight (if anything a Terrakion ban would do that IMO, but lets not get into that).

 

[blingi]

There is a slight difference, since switching your Latias out against a non CM Landorus doesn't instantly lose you the game as you can bring in Latias later again and go for another coinflip. Against a +2 Landorus, your Latias is pretty much dead if you try to switch it in a second time.

I also don't think that the CM set is worthwhile compared to the other ones, just wanted to point out his misconception that Latias actually "wins" against this set which only holds up in a vacuum.

 

[peng]

I was only talking about it in response to GVon's post where he mentioned CM, which implies special bulk and no speed, which being an offensive mon leaves it vulnerable to slew of sweepers in OU sweepers which are faster and the fact that despite all the pros it's weak to pretty common coverage options (water/ice) and even Physical stuff like Terrakion leave a huge dent on it.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 267-315 (83.69 - 98.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.


So it's definitely not "sweeping" with that.

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. Are you saying that Landorus has mediocre defensive typing because when uninvested it can get KOd by the best Choice Band Pokemon the game has ever seen? If thats the case, surely everything but Toxicroak, Nidoking, Nidoqueen and Golurk have "mediocre defensive typing"? If one of your requirements for a BW2 sweeper is that they have to be able to live a non-resisted attack from CB Terrakion after rocks with a 0/0 spread then I'd love to see one of your teams.

I'm not disagreeing with you - I think CM Landorus is a trash set and shouldn't even come into this discussion. However, acting like surviving CB Stone Edges is a benchmark for a sweeper is just absurd.

-----

On the subject of ease-of-revenging U-Turn Landorus, I'm not sure why this is used so much as an argument. U-Turn Landorus is a Pokemon that is very good in a lot of match-ups and average at best in some others; it excels against stall and balanced teams in particular to the point that they are barely viable at the moment, but its clearly not great against offense. This is no different than a bunch of other Pokemon we've banned in the past. Landorus-I is one of many Pokemon that has 2 incredible sets that have completely different lists of checks and counters. Its like saying "MixMence wasn't that good in DPP because I run a team with 5 >100 base speed Pokemon and a Mamoswine". Clearly these aren't the kinds of teams that U-Turn Landorus-I (and similar Pokemon) are designed to be good against. I don't think Landorus' inability to beat every team type with a single set is a reason to keep it OU at all. The fact that it can cover every team archetype between 2 sets (which are nigh-indistinguishable from team preview because Ttar / Keld / Lando teams have 2 separate sub-groups depending on which one is the "lure") is enough to push it over the edge for me.

I really don't know how to reply to the anti-ban side because half the people arguing seem to think that for Landorus to be uber it needs:

• to be able to threaten every team archtype with a single set
• to be naturally faster than Terrakion and Keldeo
• to have 0 weaknesses to common attacks
• to be able to set-up on CB Terrakion

rather than actually looking at the ridiculous characteristics Landorus does possess.

 

[Sapientia]

There is a slight difference, since switching your Latias out against a non CM Landorus doesn't instantly lose you the game as you can bring in Latias later again and go for another coinflip. Against a +2 Landorus, your Latias is pretty much dead if you try to switch it in a second time.

I also don't think that the CM set is worthwhile compared to the other ones, just wanted to point out his misconception that Latias actually "wins" against this set which only holds up in a vacuum.

If Latias is your only check and switches into a U-Turn it is also dead -> same situation

 

[blingi]

If Latias is your only check and switches into a U-Turn it is also dead -> same situation

I'm not sure what exactly you are arguing here.
The scenario I was talking about was Latias switching in safely against Landorus (on a CM against the CM set or on some resisted move against other sets) and the coinflip arising from this situation.
I never denied that
1. a u-turn on the switch would lead to Latias' immediate death and
2. the CM set is pretty useless compared to the other sets.

 

[Sapientia]

So what is the advtandge of CM in your situation

CM Lando: CM -> Switch to lati -> Coinflip
U-Turn Lando: Lando enters the field -> Coinflip

And if Lati switches in savely on a reisted move of cm lando, nothing happens.

I don't deny that it is right, that CM Lando can win a game in this situation.
But I just overread that you agree on CM being useless, so we say more or less the same

 

[blingi]

So what is the advtandge of CM in your situation

CM Lando: CM -> Switch to lati -> Coinflip
U-Turn Lando: Lando enters the field -> Coinflip

And if Lati switches in savely on a reisted move of cm lando, nothing happens.

I don't deny that it is right, that CM Lando can win a game in this situation.
But I just overread that you agree on CM being useless, so we say more or less the same

Read my previous post:

I also don't think that the CM set is worthwhile compared to the other ones, just wanted to point out his misconception that Latias actually "wins" against this set which only holds up in a vacuum.

I just saw one poster bring up the CM set and another poster claiming CM Latias would beat said set 10/10 times when in reality, the stall player has to win several unfavorable coinflips against either set to win.

 

[Kidogo]

Just to clarify, I think what blingi is trying to say is that once latias is in, normally you have a 50/50 mentality with the potential ttar switch--if latias stays in as you go to ttar, it gets trapped, whereas if you double switch to a ttar counter you get the momentum. However, with CM landy there's also the factor that you can't really afford to switch latias out and then back in--if I predict and CM again with landy, you're going to have a hell of a time killing it at +2 / +2. Not super important, but it does add pressure on the latias played to stay in, although the same thing would have happened a turn sooner with u-turn so not sure why this should be a selling point.

Honestly though, landy doesn't hit that much harder than LO terra. I did calcs of their main STABs vs a vappy with balanced defenses:
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Vaporeon: 265-313 (57.11 - 67.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 261-308 (56.25 - 66.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even with a modest nature on landy, terrakion is slightly stronger. Of course, we're just talking about raw power here, and most terrakion dont run LO, but fwiw landy isn't actually any stronger than terra unboosted. If terra ran a set of CC / SE / x-scissor / SD @ LO with an adamant nature, how would u-turn landy any more potent? Basically, unless the opposing team has gliscor, this thing will take down a mon every time it comes in on something slower, and it can't be walled due to SD (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 316-372 (94.61 - 111.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). LO recoil is annoying and I guess one difference, but it hardly seems big enough for me. What makes landy more broken?

 

[reyscarface]

that you think uturn is solely used in order to do damage tells me a lot. landorus is more broken than terrakion because 1) he takes no spikes damage, 2) like you said he takes no LO damage from half his moves and most importantly 3) uturn. you say uturn is used as a coverage move but its so much more than that. with terrakion you HAVE to predict whats coming in or otherwise something wont die. landorus has the huge advantage of being able to do a simple uturn, and on the worst scenario, he gets to keep momentum and do damage for no risk, while best case he does a ton of damage to a mon (latis for example) and keeps the momentum. if terrakion throws a cc on a celebi, he has to switch out now, he just took spikes lo and whatever and will have to take it again, while celebi can just uturn / recover / whatever, aka celebi gets a free move. this doesnt happen with landorus, nothing that switches in on landorus gets a free move.

 

[Kidogo]

@Rey
That's true but we're considering the case of landy/terra coming in on something they force out, right? I mean I guess you can send out landy into celebi to u-turn, but that's telegraphing your move and revealing you don't have RP, so I was assuming this is a case of landy comes in on jirachi and the opp has celebi as their landy check, terra comes in on ferro and they have hippo or something as their terra check. You have to predict the celebi switch-in and u-turn or you're in the situation you just said of losing momentum--after an EP u-turn won't kill celebi (depending on the spread), so they're free to recover and you've just taken LO + SR damage. Or even if you can now u-turn to KO the celebi, that's acting exactly like a coverage move, so a better example might be latias, which can certainly take a u-turn. But the big issue here is that you have to predict the switch and u-turn or you're the one who just lost momentum. And don't pretend this is a win/win situation--if you u-turn on the rachi, you're forced out and they can jsut u-turn as well so that momentum is on their side (or they get an attack off or w/e...). So yeah u-turn does give you momentum, but it's not guaranteed in the slightest except when u-turn is actually doing a sizable chunk of damage and is a main attack, which is basically only vs celebi--this is the big difference between gene and landy. So honestly, I don't see how u-turn is that big a deal, since if you can really predict the latias switch well enough to u-turn (and remember that you DO have to predict it correctly or else you just lost momentum vs rachi), why not just double switch to ttar? So honestly I do see this coming down to a coverage move and an extra buffer vs celebi, who it makes a non-issue since when u-turn is 4x effective THEN you can just mindlessly use it for a win/win (although with the right spread celebi is living it easily). Otherwise? I do just see it as another coverage move + celebi annhilator without prediction.

Also, the terra set I noted has x-scissor so... not much is countering it, skarm, hippo, even gliscor all can be 2HKOed after SR without a boost, so any residual damage and terra 2HKOs easily. And just quickly looking at your reasons, #1 is counteracted by the fact that terra resists SR, this easily makes up for it in the vast majority of games, #2 is a good point, and #3 I addressed above. So basically we have (imo) a mon that is comparable in power to terra with similarly good typing and coverage and weakness to hazards, with immunity to LO as a bonus. I just don't see this as adding up to broken.

EDIT: @heroes and cons, make sure you're up to date on the discussion before posting--skarmory is NOT a landorus counter, for example, and few people here are "mediocre". It takes credence from the anti-ban side when someone posts unadvisedly and in an inflammatory way.

 

[MikeDawg]

While u-turn doesn't always seem to give lando the favor in a vacuum, as you said Kidogo, in practice things work out differently.

While it seems that lando will often have 50/50 shots, in a game that number is grossly distorted to benefit the lando player. If lando u-turns instead of epowering and jirachi stays in, it took some lo damage, damaged rachi a bit, and lost a bit of momentum. If it does ep, rachi is dead. If the other player predicts the ep and switches in celebi, scenario 1 occurs minus life orb recoil. If lando ends up u-turning, celebi is dead.

While lando may omly come out on top 50% of the time, when it DOES come out on top something dies. When it doesn't, all that happens is you lose a bit of momentum.

Neither situation is very detrimental to the lando player

 

[reyscarface]

@Rey
That's true but we're considering the case of landy/terra coming in on something they force out, right? I mean I guess you can send out landy into celebi to u-turn, but that's telegraphing your move and revealing you don't have RP, so I was assuming this is a case of landy comes in on jirachi and the opp has celebi as their landy check, terra comes in on ferro and they have hippo or something as their terra check. You have to predict the celebi switch-in and u-turn or you're in the situation you just said of losing momentum--after an EP u-turn won't kill celebi (depending on the spread), so they're free to recover and you've just taken LO + SR damage. Or even if you can now u-turn to KO the celebi, that's acting exactly like a coverage move, so a better example might be latias, which can certainly take a u-turn. But the big issue here is that you have to predict the switch and u-turn or you're the one who just lost momentum. And don't pretend this is a win/win situation--if you u-turn on the rachi, you're forced out and they can jsut u-turn as well so that momentum is on their side (or they get an attack off or w/e...). So yeah u-turn does give you momentum, but it's not guaranteed in the slightest except when u-turn is actually doing a sizable chunk of damage and is a main attack, which is basically only vs celebi--this is the big difference between gene and landy. So honestly, I don't see how u-turn is that big a deal, since if you can really predict the latias switch well enough to u-turn (and remember that you DO have to predict it correctly or else you just lost momentum vs rachi), why not just double switch to ttar? So honestly I do see this coming down to a coverage move and an extra buffer vs celebi, who it makes a non-issue since when u-turn is 4x effective THEN you can just mindlessly use it for a win/win (although with the right spread celebi is living it easily). Otherwise? I do just see it as another coverage move + celebi annhilator without prediction.

Also, the terra set I noted has x-scissor so... not much is countering it, skarm, hippo, even gliscor all can be 2HKOed after SR without a boost, so any residual damage and terra 2HKOs easily. And just quickly looking at your reasons, #1 is counteracted by the fact that terra resists SR, this easily makes up for it in the vast majority of games, #2 is a good point, and #3 I addressed above. So basically we have (imo) a mon that is comparable in power to terra with similarly good typing and coverage and weakness to hazards, with immunity to LO as a bonus. I just don't see this as adding up to broken.

EDIT: @heroes and cons, make sure you're up to date on the discussion before posting--skarmory is NOT a landorus counter, for example, and few people here are "mediocre". It takes credence from the anti-ban side when someone posts unadvisedly and in an inflammatory way.

286 Atk vs 250 Def & 404 HP (70 Base Power): 300 - 356 (74.26% - 88.12%)

thats uturn vs the standard celebi set, it sure as fuck is dying to earth power + uturn, it can die from rocks + uturn + sand even.

telegraphing your moveset with landorus isnt a problem, as im just going to be uturning all game. seriously, heres something everyone in this thread should do:

READ POST NUMBER 417 BY MIKEDAWG, SERIOUSLY READ IT

me and others are fucking tired of explaining this to people but you just dont get it. LANDORUS IS IN NO WAY FUCKED FOR USING UTURN. the landorus player has the control all the time, always. MikeDawg explained it perfectly with his jirachi example. it might seem like a 50/50, but its a 50/50 that will always benefit / hardly hurt the user of landorus. look at his jirachi example. if jirachi stays in on earth power it dies, if jirachi stays in on uturn, worst case scenario i go to say, a ferrothorn or rotom and while that might make me lose a little momentum, i still have a jirachi counter out and will get momentum eventually. if jirachi switches out and i uturn, thats momentum gained for me and maybe even a check will die to the uturn. if i earth power and you switch out, something gets smacked by switch out (or avoids it with levitate etc) and i lost momentum.

Looking through this it might seem as switching out is the best move, as the options with uturn are: momentum still in favor on landorus / kill, while earth power is kill / real loss of momentum. this tells us that you, facing landorus, will get a better benefit out of switching out, and thats where uturn comes into action. if uturn didnt exist landorus wouldnt be able to have this heavily weighted to his side 50/50, meaning he would be easy to deal with.

repeating it again, worst case scenario for landorus he loses momentum. worst case scenario for the opponent he loses a mon.

I know I pretty much repeated what MikeDawg said but seriously it seems like it needs to be said over and over again until you people get it.

 

[Kidogo]

Guys celebi is not a fair example to use here. We've already agreed, u-turn lets landy get past celebi because, rey, as your damage calcs prove, the majority of the time u-turn is letting landy straight out beat celebi. Since the majority of celebis are slower than landy, celebi is simply not a check to u-turn landy.

OK, so if we actually want to talk about the use of u-turn, we need a counter where u-turn is not functioning like a coverage move, with latias being a good example. So:
If landy has u-turn, then here are the four possible scenarios (assuming for the moment that rachi uses u-turn):
Rachi stays in, landy EPs --> rachi KOed
Rachi stays in, landy u-turns --> you do some damage, take some damage, and lose momentum
Rachi switches, landy EPs --> you lose momentum
Rachi switches, landy u-turns --> opponent takes some damage and you gain momentum
So I do get what you're saying in that the options are overall "good" for the landorus player. But what would the situation be if u-turn didn't exist?
Rachi stays in, landy EPs --> rachi KOed
Rachi stays in, you double switch to ttar --> you take some damage (10% less) and lose momentum
Rachi switches, landy EPs --> you lose momentum
Rachi switches, you double switch to ttar --> you gain momentum
The only difference here is that landy does not do the ~20% from u-turn or take 10% from LO in the second scenario, and that you don't do any damage in the 4th. There's no crucial difference between the two scenarios! In fact, compare this to the 4 scenarios for something like terrakion vs an obvious switch (say xatu, since it also has u-turn for sake of example, and gliscor as the switch-in):
Xatu stays in, terra SEs --> xatu KOed
Xatu stays in, you double switch to LOmie --> you take some damage and lose momentum
Xatu switches, terra SEs --> you deal some damage, lose momentum
Xatu switches, you double switch to LOmie --> you gain momentum
Sound familiar? It's true that u-turn slightly alters the balance by allowing you to switch and deal a bit of damage in the same turn, but that's honestly not super relevant compared to KOs, as you pointed out in your r vs. r analysis, mike. I fail to see how u-turn substantially takes away the need to predict here (obviously, with celebi out of the picture).

And specifically @mikedawg, a couple problems there. First, celebi =/= other landy counters when we're talking about u-turn, since as I explained (and as rey's calcs support) when it's used vs celebi it's essentially a coverage move with the bonus of not having to predict at all. So celebi doesn't quite count here. And what you're describing is basically that when I have an offensive mon in vs something that I threaten, it's usually the best move to switch out...which I can take advantage of by predicting the switch and either u-turning or double switching. None of what you're saying is u-turn specific, and contrary to your assumption, oftentimes in high-level play people will go against r vs. r and do something like stay in on the u-turn (i've seen it happen in tournament matches), giving the rachi player just as signficant advantage as would the landorus played have had had the rachi player switched.

 

[reyscarface]

because if the mon taking the uturn was something like a tentacruel, youd have the ability to go to a mon that does well vs tentacruel, not your tyranitar who might get burned from scald. it has way too much safe utility. what if the jirachi user goes ahead and uses iron head? tyranitar just lost half his health and can no longer trap effectively. uturn lets you avoid these risks.

 

[MikeDawg]

Kidogo, celebi is a perfectly fair example because in the situation u-turn is NOT used as a coverage move. Jirachi is the one up again lando, not celebi. Whether it be latias or rotom or jellicent or feebas or anything that switches in, the worst thing that could happen by u-turning is that jirachi stays in


And then in general, moving away from just the benefit of u-turning, this is where TTar support can come in. Jellicent switches in on u-turn; ttar comes in and kills. Latias switches in; ttar comes in and kills. Etc.

Even by itself on Lando u-turn is problematic and pursuit only adds insult to injury.

 

[blingi]

Rachi stays in, landy EPs --> rachi KOed
Rachi stays in, landy u-turns --> you do some damage, take some damage, and lose momentum
Rachi switches, landy EPs --> you lose momentum
Rachi switches, landy u-turns --> opponent takes some damage and you gain momentum

You probably see how this is a problem.
In 2 out of the 4 possibilities, the Landorus user gets a kill since if Latias comes in on a u-turn you just bring in Ttar and finish it off.
Even in the case that Rachi stays in on the u-turn, you don't really lose momentum since you are free to bring in something that forces Rachi out.

So the only way for the Landorus player to actually be worse off than the other player is going for the EP while Latias comes in.
So in 50% of the possible outcomes Lando kills something, and in 25% he most likely gains momentum while only risking a loss of momentum in the last possible outcome.
Most players won't go for the EP earlier in the game anyway, and you can't really stay in with Rachi and risk losing it anyway since the possible benefits are usually far smaller compared to the prospect of losing it.

The advantage of u-turn over a switch is that you gain the momentum. So no matter which pokemon the opponent switches to, you can bring in something to threaten it and gain the momentum, even if he stays in he gets one free turn but after that he gets forced out again.

For example in this scenario:

Rachi switches, you double switch to ttar --> you gain momentum

The other player can predict your switch to Ttar and bring in something else (preferably something also immune to EP), gaining momentum in the process. U-turn makes this prediction useless, since you can immediately force his switch in out again.

 

[Shurtugal]

Okay so I want to comment on a few things. First, can we just minimize this to TTar + Landorus, because using 3 Pokes to prove something is broken is really just a terrible argument. I can see if TTar's support makes it broken, so that is the only idea I will entertain.

Let us take Chople / Scarf / CB TTar and pair it with RP / U-turn Landorus against a typical team.

Please keep in mind I can only comment on an offensive perspective since I do not play stall. Other stall players should really comment more and give us offensive players some of their perspectives, since I can only Theorymon for stall.

Let us take the RP Landorus set first.

Terrakion (Teammate: Gengar) vs. Landorus (Teammate: Tyranitar)

Team A
- I can predict the Tyranitar and go for Close Combat
- I can predict Earth Power and go into Gengar
- I can predict another move used by Landorus (Psychic) and use Stone Edge

Team B
- I can predict CC and use Earth Power
- I can predict Gengar and go into Tyranitar
- I can predict the Stone Edge from Terrakion and use Earth Power

Since these are 50/50 scenarios, neither side is at a broken advantage. Gengar's role (aside walling Breloom and spin blocking or any other general role) is to keep Landorus from spamming RP, which as you can see, I neglected any mention of since using it would be nigh stupid with Gengar still alive. It is flawless at stopping Landorus from mindlessly spamming RP until Gengar himself is removed.

Tyranitar may stop Gengar from mindlessly switching in, but the lack of U-turn makes it more than manageable to play around. This goes for Latias and BP Celebi as well.

Now let us look at U-turn Landorus with the same team.

Terrakion (Teammate: Gengar) vs. Landorus (Teammate: Tyranitar)

Team A
- I can predict the U-turn and straight up Stone Edge / Substitute
- I can predict Earth Power and go for Gengar

Team B
- I can predict Substitute or Stone Edge and go for Earth Power
- I can predict the Gengar switch in and use U-turn

The thing here is that U-turning and going into Tyranitar would effectively remove Gengar from play, and leave Landorus "free" from counters. However, an offensive team doesn't need to keep it from spamming STABs really, as it only really fears the RP set. Now RK'ers like Dnite / Scizor / Scarf Keldeo / Scarf Terrakion / Scarf TTar / Scarf Politoed / Priority + Scarf users + fast Pokemon can easily beat it and don't really fear it as much as people would think.

In other words, Gengar / Latias / Celebi's jobs are, as mentioned before, to simply stop Landorus from spamming RP recklessly. And they do just that, even if they get pursuited by TTar because the only true way Landorus can "surefirely" get Latias or Gengar or Celebi trapped is to forcebly switch into TTar, and those scenarios can easily be combated since its 50 / 50 and TTar is a Pokemon that can easily be eliminated by common offensive Pokemon.

So the removal of them doesn't make Landorus broken to offense if he runs U-turn because he can now easily be beaten due to his mediocre defenses (he doesn't have the steel typing of Genesect) and his mediocre speed.

And the RP set is debatably still checked by any of its checks if a player plays smartly.

Landorus's set is not too hard to scout for from any good offensive player either.

However, because I do not play stall, I can theorize that the U-turn Landorus is dreadful and can remove their only answer to him. I can't speak for them so I sadly cannot make any arguments. RP Landorus is argueably easier to play around for them, but I cannot give a full account.

As for offense, there are manageable ways to defeat him. As mentioned above.

Because of this, I am at the borderline with Landorus. Stall is already hard-pressed by other threats; is Landorus's removal really going to change that? For me, on Suspect, it didn't.

I'd like some other accounts to so I can properly decide which way to vote.

 

[Lady Alex]

I'm only going to comment on your U-turn example, since U-turn is the straw that breaks the camel's back regarding Landorus, in my opinion. This isn't a normal example of how a Landorus vs X pokemon is going to play out. Terrakion is faster than Landorus, and poses a significant threat if it's banded. The Landorus user is typically just going to switch out so it doesn't risk eating a banded stone edge assuming it doesn't already know Terrakion's set. Generally, Landorus is only going to be u-turning against pokemon that can't already threaten it, typically slower things, hence why it rarely has anything to lose from 50-50s where pokemon like Jirachi/Tentacruel have a lot to lose. If Jirachi predicts correctly and Landorus u-turns, the Landorus user loses a bit of momentum as it switches to a better Jirachi check, but nothing else. If the Jirachi user mispredicts, Jirachi dies. The burden Landorus puts on the other player is far greater than the risk the Landorus user takes on. Using Terrakion for your example just isn't practical.

 

[yee]

Because of this, I am at the borderline with Landorus. Stall is already hard-pressed by other threats; is Landorus's removal really going to change that? For me, on Suspect, it didn't.

I'd like some other accounts to so I can properly decide which way to vote.

I've posted this a couple times before, but to be sure; yes. You simply can't counter even the top 10 threats with Keldeo and Landorus existing. You can't ever counter everything but normally you can make sure it's never the top threat that beats you, and that's changed. A lot of things change when you remove either, but somewhere between the point of moving one or the other or both you've taken away offense's innate advantage.

 

[Shurtugal]

@Lady Alex:

Tentacruel is a stall mon. I talk from an offensive point of view.

Let us say its Breloom vs. Landorus instead, with the same partners. Bullet Seed from Breloom can easily smack Landorus a lot, but he can U-turn into Celebi so it doesn't have any risk per say in using it, right? However, if I see U-turn as an offensive player rather than RP, I don't fear it as much since its much easier for offensive team to beat down on a slow, mediocre defensive Pokemon.

All offensive Pokemon can threaten Landorus to a 2HKO, and I'm an HO player. I asked for stall comments, and if you want to say stuff like Blissey / Chansey / Jirachi / Tentacruel, than that is fine, but please don't say my argument is wrong because you can replace Terrakion for any offensive Pokemon and seeing U-turn won't change the fact that its easier for an offensive team to maneuver around it.

@Yee: The removal of Landorus has seen changes for you? Sad to say, I haven't seen any, but that might be because I play offensively. Are you saying that the removal of Landorus makes it easier for stall to exist? I'd like to see logs of a stall team before and after a Lando team so I can properly asses this, but it might be asking too much so either way I can't really speak much on that playstyle. Sorry :/

@Below: You really can't argue that Keldeo + Landorus + TTar is justification for Lando's ban since 3 pokes is way too much support for a Pokemon. Arguably, other suspects have had weather / hazard support, but never a specific role from a Pokemon that has made it broken, and now we are trying to use 3 specific role Pokemon? Use either Lando + Keldeo or Lando + TTar please! :) Also, U-turn is always a 50 /50 -- people are arguing that its affect on stall is and low risk make it arguably less than that, but it does not hold true for all archetypes because the risk level varies depending on the playstyle of team (stall vs. offense vs. balanced).

@Smogon: Oh, also, if you use just two Pokes (TTar + Lando) since that is the only idea I'll entertain (Lando + Keldeo + TTar is bs), Scarf Keldeo beats those two so it can technically counter the core (granted, it lets you pursuit kill something than comes in and Hydro Pumps ftw). Arguably, you can have a check or counter, but we can play that game all day. Limiting it to two is fair and reasonable and I feel that Keldeo should be recognized as a solid check or counter to this strategy. Just a side mention.