np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

[Hakumen]

Attained reqs. On the current ladder, I just used Band Tar + Landorus + Keldeo and I got my req rather easily. I just had to use U-turn on Landlos to trapp its and Keldeo's counters and then had an easy time to sweep the opponent's team.

The suspect ladder was more interresting, Stall was much more common/viable but despite this, by using well Tar + Keldeo core, I din't have much troubles with them and it was the same with Offense.

So, I am going to vote for banning Landorus because it is overpowered, 2HKOing Chansey and Blissey after SR and Sand Storm without a STAB is ridiculous. Plus,its main checks(i.e Celebi, Latias and Gengar) are easily trappable by Tyranitar and hit really hard by U-turn bar Gengar. Moreover, banning Landorus would allow Stall to be better as they really suffer from Landorus' presence.

 

[HUARGH]

After closely following the suspect topics (mostly this one) about Landorus and laddering a bit, I have noticed that a lot of people seem to use a core that consists of Keldeo, Tyranitar and Landorus. Nothing new, right? Tyranitar traps pokemon such as Celebi, the Lati twins, Jellicent, Starmie and so forth and you're free to sweep.

I have been trying to emulate this style but have failed to utilize Tyranitar effectively. I have tried a 252 Atk / 252 SDef adamant CB Tyranitar and a 252 Atk / 252 Spd jolly scarf Tyranitar and both have failed me so far and so I switched up my team. Celebi often just baton passes out of it to something like Lucario or Terrakion or straight up tanks the pursuits with giga drain. Leaf storm hurts like a bitch and if Celebi nasty plots on the switch, I'm usually in big trouble. Likewise, pokemon such as Gengar and Alakazam just focus blast me for the OHKO and Starmie really hurts, especially if they predict well. Jellicent can WoW and has respectable bulk.

To give you an example, look at this game: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-35161462 I encounter a player who was rated well over 1900 and had a win/loss score of 23 wins to only 2 losses and he was using this trio. In addition to this, he was also using Scizor with pursuit AND a SE hidden power against Jelli (most likely ghost) on expert belt Keldeo. Despite packing numerous ways of removing threats such as Jellicent or even Celebi, he was still unable to get past Jellicent. He even predicts me staying in and crunches instead of pursuits, but to no avail.

It is not only Jellicent who does well; I mentioned Celebi earlier, having a plethora of options ranging from baton passing to a Justifiedmon or just straight up leaf storm/giga-draining. To me, it really feels like this combo gets much more praise than it deserves.
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[Subject 18]

I have been trying to emulate this style but have failed to utilize Tyranitar effectively. I have tried a 252 Atk / 252 SDef adamant CB Tyranitar and a 252 Atk / 252 Spd jolly scarf Tyranitar and both have failed me so far and so I switched up my team. Celebi often just baton passes out of it to something like Lucario or Terrakion or straight up tanks the pursuits with giga drain. Leaf storm hurts like a bitch and if Celebi nasty plots on the switch, I'm usually in big trouble. Likewise, pokemon such as Gengar and Alakazam just focus blast me for the OHKO and Starmie really hurts, especially if they predict well. Jellicent can WoW and has respectable bulk.

To give you an example, look at this game: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-35161462 I encounter a player who was rated well over 1900 and had a win/loss score of 23 wins to only 2 losses and he was using this trio. In addition to this, he was also using Scizor with pursuit AND a SE hidden power against Jelli (most likely ghost) on expert belt Keldeo. Despite packing numerous ways of removing threats such as Jellicent or even Celebi, he was still unable to get past Jellicent. He even predicts me staying in and crunches instead of pursuits, but to no avail.

It is not only Jellicent who does well; I mentioned Celebi earlier, having a plethora of options ranging from baton passing to a Justifiedmon or just straight up leaf storm/giga-draining. To me, it really feels like this combo gets much more praise than it deserves.
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If you are running Choice banded Tyranitar the onsite recommended spread is 180 HP / 252 Atk / 76 Spd Adamant which is more then enough to outspeed Jellicent and be able to OHKO with a Crunch without risking taking a Will-o-Wisp while retaining decent bulk.

As for the replay, were your opponent went wrong was turn 3 when he had Scizor against Ferrothorn. Going for the Superpower there was way too obvious and only baited Jellicent switch-in. Instead, he should have went for the U-Turn because if Ferro stays in you get good damage (36%-42%) and can go to either Keldeo or Terrakion. Instead Jellicent came in, if he would have U-Turned he could have been able to bring Tyranitar in safely on the Jellicent.

Edit: Looking at the replay again, Tyranitar wasn't banded and wouldn't have been able to get past Jellicent even without the burn. That Trio works best if you use Choice Band on Tyranitar otherwise you get royal screwed by Jellicent.

 

[Tassa]

Well Huargh, your replay is interesting but well, we can "explain" this defeat of the Lando-Keldeo-Tar core user. First, he don't carry anything able to beat Amoonguss easily. And really, Amoonguss is rare but can be so annoying (when you're not prepared) that it matters a lot. He let Landorus being Spored with that...
After that, he had nothing against Jelli. (He says himself in the replay that Jelli equal lose for him) Nothing safe. Yes, Tar is just not a good weapon to send against Jellicent (when you can slow U-Turn on it or something like that, it is good, just sending it at first is not safe because of burn risk), the HP Ghost Keldeo is cool but when you can have some boost, or do some previous damage.
I don't try to say you didn't play well or something like that, because you anticipated well and catched him. But his team was just unable to get past yours.
An extremely effective way to deal with these trouble is to carry : 1)Something which can OHKO Amoonguss/with Sub (sub when it try to spore, and then you have the momentum)
2)Something to Toxik Jelli. Once Jelli is Toxiked, it's unable to wall effectively a lot of time and become far more easily Pursuit trappable : spam Pursuit, if it switch it dies, if it don't switch it dies. Or have something which can boost itself, Jelli won't be able to stop you.
About Celebi, it's why HP Bug is really good on EBelt Keldeo : With minimal damage (SR + Surf/Secret Sword), it's an OHKO even on the SpDef. Then, you don't depend on Tar to catch him. Also, U-Turn Lando do it well too.
In my own experience, if I didn't used Tar for Jelli (at least, not as a first answer) or Bi, I found him extremely useful with Lati@s, trapping them easily, and Starmie too though he dislike Scald burn. He also carry an useful sandstorm which "delete Lefties" allowing some important KOs. After, bandTar and supportTar have different utilities.
Gengar or Zam are not mons where it is a good idea to send Tar, too. (it's also why I find SpDef Tar good : he can tank a Focus Miss from no LO Gar/Zam)

Also agree with the previous post about the Scizor choice.


Also, agree with Myzozoa, it would be cool to have a summary of the reasons about no weather test here.

 

[Nysyr]

Really if you aren't carrying a bug move on either keldeo or landorus with keltar-i core, you are doing it wrong. If you are running a NP celebi along side it you will probably have HP Bug EB Keldeo, if not its probably U-Turn lando-i.

 

[superstar]

EB Keldeo + RP Landorus seems to be the best core atm, superior to U-Turn Landorus because you really can't switch Landorus in on much, whereas Keldeo has the nice Bullet Punch, Stone Edge, and water resists.

I don't even think you need to run the core with BandTar. A great partner that people are somewhat ignoring is Kyurem-B. It can handle Jellicent, Rotom-W, and Celebi with ease, although you do have to watch out for Scald burns.

I don't think the problem is Landorus, though. I think the problem is Keldeo. That pony needs to go -- unfortunately I'm probably going to vote to ban Landorus because at least one of them needs to go, and I'm not going to take the chance Keldeo isn't banned. Also have you seen Keldeo it is like the least cool-looking pokemon ever 129 SpAtt my a--

 

[Shurtugal]

I like CB Tar + Scarf Keldeo + U-turn Landorus (in theory, I don't like using Lando) because Landorus-I is (theoretically) the best Latias / Celebi lure in the game and it can U-turn into a trapper like CB Scizor or CB TTar (I kind've like steel resists and priority over TTar, and I feel weatherless is more effective so I'd dub this to CB Scizor + Scarf Keldeo + U-turn Landorus-I core: this actually sounds best in rain since Latias and Celebi are common answers to rain so you could attach specs Politoed too and have a solid team just saying).

 

[lokt]

I like CB Tar + Scarf Keldeo + U-turn Landorus (in theory, I don't like using Lando) because Landorus-I is (theoretically) the best Latias / Celebi lure in the game and it can U-turn into a trapper like CB Scizor or CB TTar (I kind've like steel resists and priority over TTar, and I feel weatherless is more effective so I'd dub this to CB Scizor + Scarf Keldeo + U-turn Landorus-I core: this actually sounds best in rain since Latias and Celebi are common answers to rain so you could attach specs Politoed too and have a solid team just saying).

I've actually used that same core in rain, and it's been quite effective. My team consisted of Scizor/Keldeo/Lando/Toed/Jolteon/Celebi. In rain, I used expert belt signal beam jolteon as my Celebi lure and I've found it more effective then u-turn landorus which is a better known set.

 

[Shurtugal]

In my opinion, I'd use DubDance ThundyT over Jolteon's spot (hey, ThundyT sets up on Celebi, and often has more of a niche at things like breaking stall than Jolteon does) and 112 Hp / 140 SpA / 252 Spe Latias over Celebi since Growth Venu fucks you otherwise (Latias's hp evs allow it to tank sludge bomb at +2 and OHKO back with Psyshock).

 

[Luckstard.]

I have played with U-turn naive Landlos, big thread for stall team anyway, I can beat too many stall, but, his speed tiers is very bad, so many top tiers outspeed it like Garchomp, Starmie, Keldeo, Terrakion, Latwins... I think we need his presence to control stall team and sun team.

I have played in the past with RP modest Landlos in Ttar / Keldeo / Lando core. It's easy to win after a RP but we want to kill Celebi, Latias before And SpDef Celebi @BP is a very good check to this core, in theory.

I don't really think ban Lando is a good idea, I think we want it to play efficiently against stall and sun, 1 teamstyle who change the game boring and 1 weather who is very powerful. And they all have arguments to deal with Lando.

And when I played, I don't any troubles vs Landorus, anyway when he places RP I'm dead, but he is a late game sweeper. I need to compare it to Lucario in 4th gen. Yes, they are 2 great LGS in their own metagame. Nobody wants to ban Luke because he was a Late game and it was normal to see a big LGS when he get Swords Dance.
U-turn Landlos is the better stallbreaker but horrible speed tiers as I said it before.

I'm surprising that nobody predict special sets Landorus, too many players still predict physical set.

If I got reqs, I will probably vote to Not Ban Landorus.

For the next suspect I will probably vote to ban Keldeo, great resisting and he is too powerful in rain. But, it is for later...

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I don't really think ban Lando is a good idea, I think we want it to play efficiently against stall and sun, 1 teamstyle who change the game boring and 1 weather who is very powerful. And they all have arguments to deal with Lando.

Why do we need Landorus to keep stall and Sun in check? Of all the offensive grades from stall to hyper offense, stall is the least used. In addition, Sun is the least used weather bar Hail, so why would we need to hang on to Landorus just to further inhibit two playstyles that already have less usage than their counterparts?

Not only that, but both team styles have more problems than just Landorus, and they will continue to have issues even when Landorus is gone. Stall has always had to deal with powerful Choice users such as Specs Latios, Band Terrakion, Specs Keldeo in Rain, Band Victini in Sun, etc. There are also many Expert Belt and/or lure sets that harass stall teams such as U-turn Thundurus-T, which excel in luring and eliminating their checks and breaking apart stall cores. Then you have raw power sweepers such as SD Terrakion and SD Garchomp that are great at blowing holes in stall teams. There's also Kyurem-B, which is one of the most dangerous wallbreakers out there right now due to its ridiculous power and great bulk. Sun is also going to continue to have the same problems it has had in the past. Sun has always had a problem with Stealth Rock due to its weather starter and many abusers (such as Victini, Volcarona, and Darmanitan) being weak to the entry hazard. Many of its users are also vulnerable to Spikes as well, and so entry hazards tend to be a big problem that Sun teams already have to overcome. They will also still have their issues with Terrakion, various Dragons, etc. even if Landorus is banned.

I just don't see why we need to keep Landorus to check two playstyles which most people have stated to be a bit disadvantaged due to the state of the metagame and which would still have things to worry about after such a ban.

 

[BKC]

the fact that landorus checks a couple playstyles isn't a reason to not ban it. the only reason to not ban it is if it's not broken. nothing else matters. not to mention that those two playstyles can be handled efficiently outside of lando...

the more i play suspect the more i am convinced [as if i needed convincing in the first place, but still] that a lando-less meta is better than the current one.

 

[Luckstard.]

The main problem with choice users is they need predicting, if the stall-user have a good prediction he don't really care about choice.

For SD users, a stall need to run a revenge killer anyway (Like Scarfrachi) to deal with it. Not a problem too, in theory.

I don't really mean Lando need to be OU because of stall/suns, sorry if you confused. I think he is not broken, just powerful in the both role thant can do.

I don't have really play in the oususpect at this time.

 

[ginganinja]

SO how does THIS:

I don't really mean Lando need to be OU because of stall/suns,

work with...

I don't really think ban Lando is a good idea, I think we want it to play efficiently against stall and sun, 1 teamstyle who change the game boring and 1 weather who is very powerful. And they all have arguments to deal with Lando.

I think we need his presence to control stall team and sun team.

What you just suggested, is to vote to keep Landorus-I in OU, to keep sun and stall in check. That kind of logic is something I exceptionally hate, since you can actually justify almost anything with that logic (hey lets unban Giratina-A to check rain and sun - this was actually argued a few months back). We do not check "broken" things with "broken" pokemon. This means that if, (say), Heatran became super broken after Landorus left then yes, we would ban that as well.

Furthermore its not like the above playstyles can only be handled by Landorus-I, so your point is moot.

Please refrain from using that logic again since it is toxic to the entire suspect process and needs to be discouraged.

 

[Halcyon.]

So about half the people I've run into today on the OU Suspect Ladder have been using my Conkeldurr team. I'm flattered, but playing against your own team is really hard ._.

 

[Jukain]

Just noting that Latios is a total beast against so many of these suspect teams. With it and Maggy, it's pretty damn hard to stop it. I've been running a simple Choice Specs Draco Meteor / Surf / Psyshock / Trick set.

 

[BKC]

psyshock is a waste on specs latios, it hits jack shit outside of like amoonguss while making you more susceptible to being trapped. just use dragon pulse for consistent stab.

 

[phantom]

Eh, the blobs are a bit more common in the suspect meta (from my experience). So I suppose Psyshock still has some uses and it's a nice weapon against things like Terrakion, Keldeo, and Venusaur when you're in a position that using Draco Meteor is unfavorable. There's just those bulky setup sweepers like Gyarados and Volcarona that can setup on a -2 Latios and sometimes even Lucario and Terrakion in the sand to a lesser extent.

 

[Nova]

I've been playing on OU Current ladder with a standard Sand offense team (CB Tyranitar, Scarf Physical Landorus, Sash Terrakion, Expert Belt Keldeo, Band Scizor, LO Latios). Seen a lot of teams like it with the standard Ttar Keldeo Lando offensive core. Although not as commonly used these days, Scarf Lando is still a major threat with Sand Force boosted Earthquakes and a quick U-turn is always useful. Still on the fence though about whether I think Lando is Uber or OU so definitely gonna play more.

 

[doughboy]

psyshock is a waste on specs latios, it hits jack shit outside of like amoonguss while making you more susceptible to being trapped. just use dragon pulse for consistent stab.

I would consider OHKO'ing Terrakion in the sand as well as
+1 CM Keldeo very important. In addition it is a pretty good deterrent against Chansey.

 

[Lady Alex]

I only saw 2 Landorus-I on the OU Current ladder lol. Nonetheless, I'm going to vote to ban it. In the suspect ladder, the metagame looked largely the same as it does now, imo. I mostly saw the same generic sand and rain offense teams that you'd find in the current meta. Can't wait to get rid of Keldeo. Maybe with those two gone, we'll have a somewhat less terrible metagame.

 

[BKC]

not only does specs dm do a shitload to terrakion but it is never staying in on latios anyways and psyshocking a terra is begging ttar/scizor to come in and pursuit you. draco meteor does plenty to cm-boosted keld [which you don't see a lot of anyway]. chansey sucks outside of sun stall and iirc psyshock's not a 2hko... i'd rather just trick and take its eviolite, so i really don't see the use.

 

[UltiMario]

I only saw 2 Landorus-I on the OU Current ladder lol. Nonetheless, I'm going to vote to ban it. In the suspect ladder, the metagame looked largely the same as it does now, imo. I mostly saw the same generic sand and rain offense teams that you'd find in the current meta. Can't wait to get rid of Keldeo. Maybe with those two gone, we'll have a somewhat less terrible metagame.

"The Landorus ban has little overall impact on the metagame, therefore it should be banned because I feel like it."

Flawless logic right here.

Hide

If you can't think this one out, here's a hint:
If we're looking at something as being a dominant offensive threat, and the banning of it doesn't really sway the metagame, that would imply it doesn't have the offensive prowess to shape the metagame and make it broken. Using that set of information, you concluded just the opposite.

This is why we need paragraphs back to at least deter people from voting on preference rather than the actual suspect's impact.

 

[Avira]

Personally, Landorus-I isn't even on my radar. I find Keldeo to be the better of the two and wonder why it isn't being suspected first.

On another note, it seems that the quality of the ladder is VERY poor. I wonder if the ladder will get stronger towards the end of the test.

 

[Lady Alex]

"The Landorus ban has little overall impact on the metagame, therefore it should be banned because I feel like it."

Flawless logic right here.

Hide

If you can't think this one out, here's a hint:
If we're looking at something as being a dominant offensive threat, and the banning of it doesn't really sway the metagame, that would imply it doesn't have the offensive prowess to shape the metagame and make it broken. Using that set of information, you concluded just the opposite.

This is why we need paragraphs back to at least deter people from voting on preference rather than the actual suspect's impact.

The fact that I happened not to run into it specifically during my ladder run doesn't suggest that I don't find its presence unhealthy to the metagame and am only voting to ban it out of preference. Get over yourself derp