The problem you people aren't touching on is that players have found it necessary to alter their IVs to deal with Genesect. Download on a Pokémon as fast, versatile, and powerful as Genesect is insanity. Could you imagine if Rayquaza got it?
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 8 - Mr. Roboto (SEE POST #240)
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It wasn't about just that. I meant pokemon like Tornadus-T manipulating IVs in order to prevent the SPA boost, or Garchomp with yache berry and -20 DEF IVs, for the sole purpose of defeating Genesect.
The problem with Genesect + download is that he's mixed. On porygon-Z a +1 physical attack is worthless while Genesect can use it for monster u-turn power. Yes it's still less than scizor's but you only get +1 in physical attack when they have a defence lower than their special defence. Download specifically makes your attacks that target the enemies weaker side stronger.
Switch in on a physical wall and you have superfluous power for destroying them. Switch in on the pink blobs and they take a boosted u-turn to the face.
Switch in on a physical wall and you have superfluous power for destroying them. Switch in on the pink blobs and they take a boosted u-turn to the face.
guys, let's stop nitpicking the ONE thing I said that you happen to disagree with and have an actual discussion. Tinted Lens of course has its flaws, too (wont let you get past Heatran, obviously), but the fact that it nullifies half resistances is amazing (think Gyarados / Landorus / Magnezone can come to tank a Bug Buzz / U-turn?) To deny the appeal in tinted lens is sheer ignorance. Simply put, Download isn't the best ability out there, and people should stop treating as if DL turns Genesect into the next Arceus -_-;;
Anyways, I already shared my thoughts on Genesect after laddering with it. Feel free to do the same, or intelligently discuss on the major points I brought up.
Anyways, I already shared my thoughts on Genesect after laddering with it. Feel free to do the same, or intelligently discuss on the major points I brought up.
I honestly think genesect is broken due to its diversity and the guessing game you have to succumb to when facing it. Genesect has a TON of sets it can abuse, some of them may not be as good as others, but being that it is so diverse it gives a huge burden on the metagame. Because genesect is so diverse it can take away momentum so quickly and easily that it will put you down a mon straight away.
Let's say you bring out your terrakion in the sand out against the gene, you would think it would be perfectly fine but then Terrakion gets slaughtered by iron head from band gene or ebelt lure gene. Now your down a mon and you still are not sure if gene is ebelt or band which puts you into another guessing game. You may say that those sets are garbage but the point is that those sets ARE viable and can cost you the game.
Or you predict the gene to be RP gene and it ends up being scarf gene and u turns out against your heatran. And although heatran may still end up living (unless opp has dugtrio) you are still put at a huge disadvantage and the momentum of the game has completeley shifted to the other team.
Genesect has tons of sets (again most of these sets are very uncommon but they do exist) compared to most/all pokemon in the meta. And that diversity alone I think deserves a ban. Though im pretty inexperienced in OU so what do ik. k bye
Let's say you bring out your terrakion in the sand out against the gene, you would think it would be perfectly fine but then Terrakion gets slaughtered by iron head from band gene or ebelt lure gene. Now your down a mon and you still are not sure if gene is ebelt or band which puts you into another guessing game. You may say that those sets are garbage but the point is that those sets ARE viable and can cost you the game.
Or you predict the gene to be RP gene and it ends up being scarf gene and u turns out against your heatran. And although heatran may still end up living (unless opp has dugtrio) you are still put at a huge disadvantage and the momentum of the game has completeley shifted to the other team.
Genesect has tons of sets (again most of these sets are very uncommon but they do exist) compared to most/all pokemon in the meta. And that diversity alone I think deserves a ban. Though im pretty inexperienced in OU so what do ik. k bye
You say it as though they're saying the sole reason Genesect may be broken is because of Download. No that monster versitility combined with it's Atk and Sp. Atk that allows it to go mixed very well is what makes it suspect worthy. Download is just one more straw on it's back. However, download is still a major contributor to Genescect simly because it's Atk, Sp. Atk, huge versatility, and Download makes for a broken pokemon. It's like Garchomp w/ sand veil.
I think you are underestimating how powerful an ability Download is. It's basically like having a Choice Band or Choice Specs boost for no cost in return. That is huge. Tinted lens might be a cool ability, but it wouldn't help Genesect get past its current checks/counters (Heatran still walls it, the blobs don't resist any of its attacks in the first place, Terrakion in sand can still take a hit, Jirachi in rain is neutral to all its attacks). Genesect already sweeps a good majority of the game excluding those pokemon I listed with Download, so I don't understand why you think Tinted Lens would make it so much better.
Think of Download like Sand Veil on Garchomp. Chomp is an amazing pokemon with great type coverage, stats and a good amount of variety in terms of sets and uses. Sand Veil was the icing on the cake that most people thought was simply too much for OU. Download isn't the reason Genesect is possibly broken, it's just one of many factors to consider when making that decision.
Genesect is just absolutely broken. Forgive me if I am overdramatizing, but the points need to be said.
Self-Abilities
Trying to predict Genesect is like trying to play Simon Say's blind. Genesect has an absolutely expansive movepool that allows it to practically counter everything in OU. Ice Beam? Flamethrower? Thunderbolt? Bug Buzz? Giga Drain? Genesect has those moves and MORE. Even more frustrating is that every single strategy revolving around Genesect is to the verge of "flawless," (again, may be over-exaggerating) in particular: RP. To say Download is terrible for the thing is like saying Magic Guard is one of the worst abilities; Download works frighteningly well with Genesect. To say Genesect is not broken by itself is a dreadful, horrible understatement. In reality, the team with Genesect will almost always have a huge advantage considering its movepool, abilities, and movesets. Alone or with help, it is broken.
Partners
Take a stab at who is Genesect's most common partner...Should be obvious. Politoed's Drizzle causes that only key to defeating it, the x4 weakness to Fire-types, to be thrown out of the window. In Rain, it is almost guaranteed that you will have to death-fodder a few Pokemon in order to finally get rid of it. It does not help that the only real check to Genesect (Heatran) can be trapped and KOed by Dugtrio. Genesect with the right partners and setup is absolutely agonizing to face. Not only that, but the setup is quite easy to pull off. An easy and sure-fire way to beat most of the Pokemon in the metagame and that is not considered "broken to some?" Hm...
Effects on Metagame
I feared Garchomp going to OU because I thought it would centralize the metagame upon itself. Boy was I wrong...
What I am sure about is that the metagame will shift into countering Genesect if it is still allowed in OU. The proof? How about that >50% usage in October? The usage will simply rise as more people realize how devastatingly broke Genesect is in OU. Not only that, but Genesect causes Rain to become more overpowered and near-broken with Genesect. Genesect can make up for almost all of the traditional rain team members' short-comings with its movepools and movesets; which in turn may result in anything else becoming obsolete and useless (again, overexaggerating here).
Conclusion
The facts show that Genesect is indeed broken from a statistical viewpoint and a visual viewpoint (with the ladder pictures and such). Genesect has a movepool that murders almost the entire OU tier, bar Heatran and maybe Blissey/Chansey. It has support that practically erases its weaknesses. I pray to Arceus that this abomination may be sent to Ubers so that it may recieve Judgment...
Self-Abilities
Trying to predict Genesect is like trying to play Simon Say's blind. Genesect has an absolutely expansive movepool that allows it to practically counter everything in OU. Ice Beam? Flamethrower? Thunderbolt? Bug Buzz? Giga Drain? Genesect has those moves and MORE. Even more frustrating is that every single strategy revolving around Genesect is to the verge of "flawless," (again, may be over-exaggerating) in particular: RP. To say Download is terrible for the thing is like saying Magic Guard is one of the worst abilities; Download works frighteningly well with Genesect. To say Genesect is not broken by itself is a dreadful, horrible understatement. In reality, the team with Genesect will almost always have a huge advantage considering its movepool, abilities, and movesets. Alone or with help, it is broken.
Partners
Take a stab at who is Genesect's most common partner...Should be obvious. Politoed's Drizzle causes that only key to defeating it, the x4 weakness to Fire-types, to be thrown out of the window. In Rain, it is almost guaranteed that you will have to death-fodder a few Pokemon in order to finally get rid of it. It does not help that the only real check to Genesect (Heatran) can be trapped and KOed by Dugtrio. Genesect with the right partners and setup is absolutely agonizing to face. Not only that, but the setup is quite easy to pull off. An easy and sure-fire way to beat most of the Pokemon in the metagame and that is not considered "broken to some?" Hm...
Effects on Metagame
I feared Garchomp going to OU because I thought it would centralize the metagame upon itself. Boy was I wrong...
What I am sure about is that the metagame will shift into countering Genesect if it is still allowed in OU. The proof? How about that >50% usage in October? The usage will simply rise as more people realize how devastatingly broke Genesect is in OU. Not only that, but Genesect causes Rain to become more overpowered and near-broken with Genesect. Genesect can make up for almost all of the traditional rain team members' short-comings with its movepools and movesets; which in turn may result in anything else becoming obsolete and useless (again, overexaggerating here).
Conclusion
The facts show that Genesect is indeed broken from a statistical viewpoint and a visual viewpoint (with the ladder pictures and such). Genesect has a movepool that murders almost the entire OU tier, bar Heatran and maybe Blissey/Chansey. It has support that practically erases its weaknesses. I pray to Arceus that this abomination may be sent to Ubers so that it may recieve Judgment...
Sorry if I'm not allowed to post this question here but I was just wondering with all the talks about Genesect being broken or not then what/how do we define as a broken Pokemon and how does Genesect fit (or doesn't fit) that?
Genesect is the most broken Poke since Blaziken. I don't feel like posting 1000 words but
Jack of many trades, master of many trades.
I also wanted to say that I think Landorus is overpowered, as well as Terrakion. If those two ever generate a suspect discussion (I think Terrakion has been gone over) then I will be happy to argue.
- It's ridiculously strong on both physical and special side
- Its a Steel type with 1 weakness
- Resists/Neutral to all common forms of priority, making it very hard to revenge. Also hard to revenge when its at +1 +2 in one turn.
- Not its best set but probably the best Choice Scarf user.
- Strong U-turn, only Scizor can pretty much boast this.
- Unpredictability can cause something to instantly die (much like swift swim physical/special Kingdra). This is different to Mew because there is a fine line between the difference in sheer power.
- Most ridiculous movepool in OU.
Jack of many trades, master of many trades.
I also wanted to say that I think Landorus is overpowered, as well as Terrakion. If those two ever generate a suspect discussion (I think Terrakion has been gone over) then I will be happy to argue.
Not that this is an argument against a Genesect ban, but have people tried, y'know, pivot switching against RP Genesect to scout its set? What's the worst it can do? Read your mind? Lucky guess? Use RP again to become... faster? There's "I think Genesect is broken" and then there's "aww Genesect might have the move needed to beat the check I switched in, I'm just going to give up and sit here and leave it to chance"... The most obvious reasons I wouldn't use this as an argument against a ban are "entry hazards" and "you still take damage from Genesect while scouting it" but seriously... I'm also saying this because I don't find Landorus or Terrakion or whatever broken at all and it seems like some people just don't like playing against great offensive Pokémon rather than actually finding Genesect broken for legitimate reasons.
I'd say, that you will have issue to beat the classic GigaDrain/IceB/FlameThrower anyway.
Fire pokemons can resist this combo, Kyurem-B also a little.. and guess what they take heavy damages from hazards (bar Heatran obviously).
There are the pink blobs also... and things neutral to it like Fighting pokemons etc. But they are usually crippled by a double type that makes them weak.
Moreover not alot of these can 0HKO Genesect, and since he can recover heavily with Giga Drain >.<
So I don't really think it's that much about scouting the moves, because Genesect can run a set that hit for enough damages anything.
When I see a RP with my HO, I fodder what I can to get some LO recoil, and end it with my priorities. I usually lose some pokemons in the process.
I also rely on my Focus Sash user that can KO back Genesect if he's still alive.
But in my opinion, not a lot of team can afford "scouting" a +1 Genesect by switching. Since he's faster than anything after RP, he doesn't have to bother predicting, he'll hit on the switch and end it after with his coverage.
I also agree, that it's mainly because people also don't like to play against this type of threats. The teams aren't stallish anymore, if everybody was running his own blob, there would not be any problem.
But by doing this... your team is usually open to loads of other threats :\
Fire pokemons can resist this combo, Kyurem-B also a little.. and guess what they take heavy damages from hazards (bar Heatran obviously).
There are the pink blobs also... and things neutral to it like Fighting pokemons etc. But they are usually crippled by a double type that makes them weak.
Moreover not alot of these can 0HKO Genesect, and since he can recover heavily with Giga Drain >.<
So I don't really think it's that much about scouting the moves, because Genesect can run a set that hit for enough damages anything.
When I see a RP with my HO, I fodder what I can to get some LO recoil, and end it with my priorities. I usually lose some pokemons in the process.
I also rely on my Focus Sash user that can KO back Genesect if he's still alive.
But in my opinion, not a lot of team can afford "scouting" a +1 Genesect by switching. Since he's faster than anything after RP, he doesn't have to bother predicting, he'll hit on the switch and end it after with his coverage.
I also agree, that it's mainly because people also don't like to play against this type of threats. The teams aren't stallish anymore, if everybody was running his own blob, there would not be any problem.
But by doing this... your team is usually open to loads of other threats :\
Even if you pivot between your checks to scout and see if Genesect has Giga Drain or Bug Buzz, almost nothing changes. Not to mention that you must have multiple checks to Genesect to do this anyway, and they must be at good shape at late game. Let's see the checks that can deal with RP Genesect if it lacks either of Giga Drain or Bug Buzz: Rotom-W, Kyurem-B, Terrakion, Gastrodon, Celebi. And to be able to scout and see which move Genesect carries you must have two checks that die from different coverage moves otherwise you get swept if Genesect has the right move. So you need a combo of Rotom-W + Kyurem-B, Rotom-W + Celebi, Terrakion + Kyurem-B, Terrakion + Celebi, Gastrodon + Kyurem-B, or Gastrodon + Celebi. Even then many of those pokes die even without the correct coverage move after one or two SR rounds (Celebi and Kyurem-B for example can be taken down even without Bug Buzz as both take >60% from a +1 Flamethrower.
Imo Genesect makes the metagame worse, and must go because it greatly limits diversity. It does so many things and it does them all too well. Want to talk about the RP set? The single best sweeper for offensive teams that dominates late game against offensive and balanced teams? Or about the Scarf set, that threateans the majority of the OU pokes while outspeeding them at the same time and forces a ton of switches, easily giving you the control of the pace of the game, and finaly makes for a very good cleaner and revenge killer? And what about the EB set, which will almost always put a big hole in the opponents defense, unless they play extra carefully every time with Genesect? Genesect steals the spotlight from too many Pokemon in OU, turning them from top tier or very good Pokemon to somehow niche choices, such as CB Scizor, Choice Scarf Rotom-W, and EB Landorus and centralizes OU too much around it. Not to mention that it accelerates even more the pace of an already offensive metagame, making some defensive Pokemon almost unviable by itself.
Imo Genesect makes the metagame worse, and must go because it greatly limits diversity. It does so many things and it does them all too well. Want to talk about the RP set? The single best sweeper for offensive teams that dominates late game against offensive and balanced teams? Or about the Scarf set, that threateans the majority of the OU pokes while outspeeding them at the same time and forces a ton of switches, easily giving you the control of the pace of the game, and finaly makes for a very good cleaner and revenge killer? And what about the EB set, which will almost always put a big hole in the opponents defense, unless they play extra carefully every time with Genesect? Genesect steals the spotlight from too many Pokemon in OU, turning them from top tier or very good Pokemon to somehow niche choices, such as CB Scizor, Choice Scarf Rotom-W, and EB Landorus and centralizes OU too much around it. Not to mention that it accelerates even more the pace of an already offensive metagame, making some defensive Pokemon almost unviable by itself.
The pivots that can switch in are Heatran, Volcanora, Chansey, Blissey and Ninetales, assuming SR are not on the field. 3 of those are trapped by Dugtrio(unless you're running stuff like Shed Shell Rest Talk Heatran). The others are wrecked by physical Genesect(which is viable) And you can't make the case that GeneTrio will always have U-turn either. I've seen Rock Polish sets paired with Dugtrio, since pivots would be less likely to switch in on Genesect when they see Dugtrio on Team Preview. I've seen Genesect double switch to bluff the Rock Polish, only to get owned by Choice Scarf Genesect later on in the match. Then there's the Expert Belt sets, which trolls scouting attempts. And if it does manages to set-up mid-to-late game, you're hoping that your check isn't owned by a random coverage move you were unable scout for earlier in the match.
Keep Genesect in OU.
Why? Because i dislike the sentiment to ban everything one does not like facing. Id rather see us invent creative ways to cope with strong mons than banning them.
One should also question where we will stop banning stuff. If we keep going and ban then next ~5-10 suspects, what will be left? Are we even playing OU anymore then?
One has to realize that newer Pokemon generations will undoubtly get more offensive. That is a fact! You dont believe me? Well then, let me teach you:
Every generation is adding around 150+ new Mons to the game, whereas every team still consists of only 6 Mons. So with every new generation your same 6 mons have to cover 150 new threats. This will without a doubt tick the balance in favor of offensive teams. Not to mention that we have unique abilities/items/whatever that multiply the option to cover even more.
If you observe the differences between the generations you will surely grasp that concept (metagame got more offensive over time).
It is time to accept that offense will benefit more over time. Therefore i am firmly against banning stuff because it wont halt this process.
We might be able to turn BW OU into an more-liked (for lack of better wording) metagame but at what cost. If we ban all the top OU threats do we still play OU or did we just change OU to BL/UU?
The goal should be to ban the least amount of Pokes possible and NOT ban whatever we dont like facing off against. This gives us the most possibilities to fool around with and should be the action of choice (not banning unneccarily stuff).
Another thing that baffles me time and time again is how people think centralization is a bad thing. Centralization is a natural process that will always happen in any competitive environment where people strive to find the best way to win. Furthermore centralization distinguishes what works and what doesnt and opens up innovation. If you know whats popular you should be able to think of counters or strategies that abuse the popular things. Examples for this are the common cores of WeatherInducer/Sweeper + Trapper. They were once innovative to deal with what worked best then. And consequently they turned into accepted standard cores that now define the metagame. Now the onus is on us to develop new strategies that counter them. Thats just how it works.
Overcentralization can only be an arguement for a ban when something forces one to literally incluse that Mon in every single team to increase one's winning chance.
I do not believe that that is the case with genesect because ive seen, faced and used several good teams without genesect that worked just fine in current ou.
I also do not believe that Genesect is broken based on my personal experience. You can play around Genesect as you can around other threats. Yes sure sometimes you have to sacrifice a Pokemon but thats the case versus literally any big offensive threat out there. In certain situations you will be forced to sacrifice something in order to not flat out lose. This may be the case vs Genesect but also vs Terrakion, Keldeo, Thund-T, Lando-I, etc. pp. - you name it.
First of all does Genesect need an Download-Boost (exspecially on its RP-Set) to even attempt a sweep because it would be too weak without one. Most RP-Sects dont even use a Stabmove which in turn forces gene to get the download-boost even more to sweep. Now you could just use a Team that doesnt let Genesect gain this Boost or run a hard counter of RP-Sect or a combination of Mons that cover him just fine.
Secondly Genesect cant be used as an pivot without u-turn which the rp-set doesnt have which distinguishes it from the scarf-set. Maybe it is sometimes better to cut your losses and take the risk that Genesect may be scarfed and stay in vs it to prevent it setting up (see Genesect coming into Latias). But the same logic can be applied to pretty much all other top BW OU threats - if you cant afford something to set up, dont let it do it for free.
Not to mention that team preview gives us even a chance to predict what set genesect will be using.
Scarfsect is annoying but can be played around and used to ones advantage if you are playing your cards right. Say you have DD-Dragonite and your opponent sends out Genesect vs you and you dd't on the switch. Now you certainly lose 1v1 if genesect decides to use Icebeam, but what if you decide to stay in? If he icebeams then you can just go for your SubSD-Terrakion to sweep and if he u-turn you just earned yourself a kill. Genesect forces this 50:50 situations that may turn out good for the user of gene but may very well turn out against him.
Nontheless Genesect is a very good mon with certain perks and it might possibly eben be the best BW2 OU Mon.
But being the best does not equal being broken.
I also enjoyed playing the standard ladder far more. Thanks for reading.
tl;dr: Genesect is OU and helps check all the other big threats of BW2 but it itself is checked by these threats as well. Id rather see us unbanning some Mons than banning anything anytime soon.
Why? Because i dislike the sentiment to ban everything one does not like facing. Id rather see us invent creative ways to cope with strong mons than banning them.
One should also question where we will stop banning stuff. If we keep going and ban then next ~5-10 suspects, what will be left? Are we even playing OU anymore then?
One has to realize that newer Pokemon generations will undoubtly get more offensive. That is a fact! You dont believe me? Well then, let me teach you:
Every generation is adding around 150+ new Mons to the game, whereas every team still consists of only 6 Mons. So with every new generation your same 6 mons have to cover 150 new threats. This will without a doubt tick the balance in favor of offensive teams. Not to mention that we have unique abilities/items/whatever that multiply the option to cover even more.
If you observe the differences between the generations you will surely grasp that concept (metagame got more offensive over time).
It is time to accept that offense will benefit more over time. Therefore i am firmly against banning stuff because it wont halt this process.
We might be able to turn BW OU into an more-liked (for lack of better wording) metagame but at what cost. If we ban all the top OU threats do we still play OU or did we just change OU to BL/UU?
The goal should be to ban the least amount of Pokes possible and NOT ban whatever we dont like facing off against. This gives us the most possibilities to fool around with and should be the action of choice (not banning unneccarily stuff).
Another thing that baffles me time and time again is how people think centralization is a bad thing. Centralization is a natural process that will always happen in any competitive environment where people strive to find the best way to win. Furthermore centralization distinguishes what works and what doesnt and opens up innovation. If you know whats popular you should be able to think of counters or strategies that abuse the popular things. Examples for this are the common cores of WeatherInducer/Sweeper + Trapper. They were once innovative to deal with what worked best then. And consequently they turned into accepted standard cores that now define the metagame. Now the onus is on us to develop new strategies that counter them. Thats just how it works.
Overcentralization can only be an arguement for a ban when something forces one to literally incluse that Mon in every single team to increase one's winning chance.
I do not believe that that is the case with genesect because ive seen, faced and used several good teams without genesect that worked just fine in current ou.
I also do not believe that Genesect is broken based on my personal experience. You can play around Genesect as you can around other threats. Yes sure sometimes you have to sacrifice a Pokemon but thats the case versus literally any big offensive threat out there. In certain situations you will be forced to sacrifice something in order to not flat out lose. This may be the case vs Genesect but also vs Terrakion, Keldeo, Thund-T, Lando-I, etc. pp. - you name it.
First of all does Genesect need an Download-Boost (exspecially on its RP-Set) to even attempt a sweep because it would be too weak without one. Most RP-Sects dont even use a Stabmove which in turn forces gene to get the download-boost even more to sweep. Now you could just use a Team that doesnt let Genesect gain this Boost or run a hard counter of RP-Sect or a combination of Mons that cover him just fine.
Secondly Genesect cant be used as an pivot without u-turn which the rp-set doesnt have which distinguishes it from the scarf-set. Maybe it is sometimes better to cut your losses and take the risk that Genesect may be scarfed and stay in vs it to prevent it setting up (see Genesect coming into Latias). But the same logic can be applied to pretty much all other top BW OU threats - if you cant afford something to set up, dont let it do it for free.
Not to mention that team preview gives us even a chance to predict what set genesect will be using.
Scarfsect is annoying but can be played around and used to ones advantage if you are playing your cards right. Say you have DD-Dragonite and your opponent sends out Genesect vs you and you dd't on the switch. Now you certainly lose 1v1 if genesect decides to use Icebeam, but what if you decide to stay in? If he icebeams then you can just go for your SubSD-Terrakion to sweep and if he u-turn you just earned yourself a kill. Genesect forces this 50:50 situations that may turn out good for the user of gene but may very well turn out against him.
Nontheless Genesect is a very good mon with certain perks and it might possibly eben be the best BW2 OU Mon.
But being the best does not equal being broken.
I also enjoyed playing the standard ladder far more. Thanks for reading.
tl;dr: Genesect is OU and helps check all the other big threats of BW2 but it itself is checked by these threats as well. Id rather see us unbanning some Mons than banning anything anytime soon.
To suggest that the motivation to ban Genesect is simply because people don't like playing against it is absurd. You say that not banning things gives people more tools to be creative, but when a pokemon like Genesect forces the metagame to revolve around it, you're room for creativity is a lot smaller. I'm not going to directly address the rest of your post because it seems that you've just regurgitated the pro-OU arguments that have already been brought up and discussed.
Arguing that not banning Genesect to allow more creative ideas is absurd. Not only that, creativity is not the right word to put here even if we allowed the meta-game to center around one Pokemon (which, once again, is absurd), shifting the entire meta-game would be the right phrase to put there, as centering around just one Pokemon will effectively ruin many ideas and sets that have been put in stone since the beginning of the BW era. It's the same argument for complex bans; you cannot simply change make such a drastic yet simple change and effect it to work out. Just about every set in OU would have to be changed and adjusted for this plan, and many Pokemon could not make the cut because of it, but would be too OP for UU, being stuck on the unfortunate tier that is the Border Line, becoming effectively useless.
If I could word it differently, the best way I could give an example would be like this: Remember in the original Pokemon games, Red and Blue? Though never known for its competitive battles, letting a meta-game centralizing around Genesect is like making the meta-game center around Amnesia Mewtwo in Red and Blue. There was a reason Uber was a tier in Red and Blue, even though only two Pokemon resided in it, because otherwise, the meta-game would turn into a shithole somewhat similar the inside of your baby cousin's freshly poo'd diaper. Sure, you could argue that Mewtwo isn't great on the physical defensive side, and that it could be taken down, but let's be honest: being on the receiving end of Mewtwo's Psychic in RBY was a terrible experience for the other player. The same applies to Genesect, and could easily happen if such a fuck-tard of an idea happened. (Albeit not nearly of that magnitude.)
If I could word it differently, the best way I could give an example would be like this: Remember in the original Pokemon games, Red and Blue? Though never known for its competitive battles, letting a meta-game centralizing around Genesect is like making the meta-game center around Amnesia Mewtwo in Red and Blue. There was a reason Uber was a tier in Red and Blue, even though only two Pokemon resided in it, because otherwise, the meta-game would turn into a shithole somewhat similar the inside of your baby cousin's freshly poo'd diaper. Sure, you could argue that Mewtwo isn't great on the physical defensive side, and that it could be taken down, but let's be honest: being on the receiving end of Mewtwo's Psychic in RBY was a terrible experience for the other player. The same applies to Genesect, and could easily happen if such a fuck-tard of an idea happened. (Albeit not nearly of that magnitude.)
I was neutral on Genesect until my designated counter on my bulky offense team (Heatran) started repeatedly getting raped by HP water variants...
What the hell am I supposed to do about it now? Resort to using one of the blobs or something stupid like Gastrodon that will also get raped by Giga Drain variants? Crazy how a single pokemon can make an entire playstyle utterly useless.
Genesect demolishes the idea of "creativity" in OU.
What the hell am I supposed to do about it now? Resort to using one of the blobs or something stupid like Gastrodon that will also get raped by Giga Drain variants? Crazy how a single pokemon can make an entire playstyle utterly useless.
Genesect demolishes the idea of "creativity" in OU.
"What am I supposed to so about this pokemon"
"This pokemon ruins an ideas of creativity"
What? The whole meaning of creativity is to try to find new ways to counter certain threats.
I used to have a specially defensive Tyranitar which can deal with the RP sets as most RP sets don't carry bug buzz and giga drain won't do much in the sand and Tyranitar can Kill it off with a flamethrower and even bug buzz won't kill of Tyranitar in one hit if it's at high health regardless of download boost.
Scarfed Victini or any other faster scarfer that knows a fire type move(Salamence/Garchamp for ex) can deal with the scarfed u-turn variants. You can even try pokemon with iron barbs or rough skin in combinations with rocky helmet to make sure genesect does't u-turn with out a price. And with entry hazards out genesect will be relectunt to be u-turn as much.
Even Sableye can stall out some sets by burning it and then spamming recover as genesects moves won't KO Sableye with the right EV's.
Oh and I've also heard that genesect in rain teams will make rain teams more better because rain weakens fire type moves. Genesect is still 4X weak to fire and will still do a lot of damage regardless of the weather.
Too bad NONE of the stuff you labeled are counters thanks to Genesect's crazy diverse movepool. That's the main problem with it: it has very, very few counters that can actually handle it.
And FYI having to change around your entire team just to handle a single Pokemon is the opposite of creativity... That's hindrance.
Competitive Pokemon isn't supposed to be fun, per say. Its about winning. And I know that we have to ask why we're playing this if not for fun. But in this kind of environment, we have to ask ourselves this question from a competitive point, not an amusement one. We don't ban something because its no fun to play against, we ban it because its broken and is far too powerful for this metagame.
Ever been on the receiving end of a Volcarona sweep? I can tell you, that's not fun. But Volcarona isn't broken because it has things that can stop it cold, and it needs support. Genesect doesn't need as much support as Volcarona, which means that unless you have an insane weakness to Fire on your team, Genesect can fit in and be effective, regardless of what kind of team it is. Well, almost any team, but apart from stacking on too many weaknesses, I can't think of a real reason not to put Gene in the lineup. That is why Genesect needs to get out, it fits almost anywhere, fills a ton of roles, and dominates teams that lack ways to check/counter all of the different things he can do.
uhhhhh.... if you're playing Pokemon for the sole purpose of winning, then try not to be offended, but you need to get a life. It's supposed to be fun. Who the hell takes pokemon that seriously? This isn't a debate about war, lol. The purpose of banning revolves around several aspects, one of the more important ones is if x has a negative impact on the metagame. For what it's worth, it seems that most people agree, that while genesect is not necessarily broken, it's impact on the metagame certainly shouldn't be over looked.
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