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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 8 - Mr. Roboto (SEE POST #240)

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I'd just like to mention that the movement to unban things rather than ban them is not equivalent to "use broken stuff to check broken stuff". "Broken" is a relative term, but at the same time, if two elements are "broken" even if they check each other, both should be banned. I'm not sure anyone disputes that particular statement. The real worry is that we might just assume that banning things is a better solution than not banning things. In a sense, unbanning things is not that different from introducing something new. For example, Little Cup has Eviolite in Gen 5 when it didn't have it in Gen 4; the metagame was changed drastically as a result, and as far as I know, consensus has it that it has been for the better.

I also just think that something's wrong when someone's saying that X is broken because you can slap it on team style Y and make it more viable. Like, isn't that what we want?

Still, I get the general argument that Genesect is powerful and bulky for a Scarfer and a Speed-boosting sweeper. It's like how in Gen 4, Choice Scarf Jirachi usually had to hit Iron Head resistances with super effective moves to threaten them, but even neutral hits from Genesect leave a mark if it has the relevant Download boost.
 
I also just think that something's wrong when someone's saying that X is broken because you can slap it on team style Y and make it more viable. Like, isn't that what we want?

The extent to which Genesect can do this is the problem. There is no other Pokémon in the game in which you can say "Oh, your team which I know virtually nothing about is having trouble? Have you tried using Genesect?"

And I feel like people are freaking out way too goddamn hard about other people saying that a team without Genesect is inferior. The comparison to Stealth Rock in 4th Gen was made, and I think this is incredibly accurate. Barring Magic Guard Pokémon (who are few and far in between and none of whom are extremely viable on their own, they all require reasonably heavy support), you never have to worry about a Sash ruining your sweep, or something stalling you out with just that last sliver of HP because you got a low damage roll. Stealth Rock even checks extremely dangerous Pokémon like Salamence, Dragonite, and Volcarona: All for one turn of set-up. Genesect is that easy to use and he is that good.
 
I've received several complaint PMs on PS! in the last few days about possible flaws in the rating system. Since we realize that glicko2 is a sub-optimal rating system for selecting people eligible to vote, we'll be accepting special applications for this round. So, as long as:
1) you have a deviation of 60 or less;
2) you have a pretty high win ratio;
feel free to send us a special application for voting in this test.

Make sure to include a screenshot of your rating box (type /rank in PS! main window in order to obtain it).
 
I will preface this by saying the only way I was able to make it through the suspect ladder was by playing as few matches sober as I possibly could. It was that bad. I don't think that's due to a lack of Genesect but more to the quantity of better players on the ladder and the fact that most of them have decided (myself included) that rain teams are the best teams and there isn't much reason to use anything else. So I'm not going to attempt to argue that Genesect is like the only thing holding a good metagame together and that if we ban it the metagame will suck. Because the metagame is already so rain dominant. I do think it will get worse if Genesect is banned, since he does give a boost to every type of team, and although that includes rain rain usually has something better it can be using that slot for like scarf Keldeo or Tornadus.

Anyways Genesect doesn't seem broken to me, although I will say that the argument I saw a few posts back about how Genesect is great at grabbing momentum did make me stop and think for a little bit. But I don't think it's ability to grab momentum makes it broken because I don't think it's _that_ good at it. It's really fantastic at it but I don't think it's at the point where it's broken. The RP set is also not broken from what I've seen. It's a set up sweeper that you can see in team preview and almost every team has 2-3 built in checks to it. I also don't really see Genesect as centralizing because honestly I was looking at the good teams on suspect and none of them seemed Genesect weak or anything so it doesn't seem like it's a big thing that it's gone.

Gonna vote OU as of now, but I'm still looking for that one post that changes my mind on it.
 
I'd like to hear some opinions from this round's qualified voters regarding Genesect.

Personally, I enjoyed the Current OU Ladder a lot more than Suspect. The Suspect Ladder was just Rain vs. Rain all the time. I had one of my friends advise me to "take a Rain Offense team with Genesect and put on Sub CM Jirachi." Amusingly enough, that turned out to be an easy way to make a team for the Suspect metagame. It could be that the OU Ladder is a bit more diluted in terms of player number and skill level, but at least there was some variety.

On the topic of Genesect, I'm pretty much on the borderline. There are times when I think that Genesect is great and needs to be banned, but then there are times I no longer think so. Right now, its best set is definitely the Rock Polish set, but I think that's more symptomatic of how BW2 OU works right now. I've never seen such an offensively oriented metagame, ever. Rock Polish Genesect is so devastating mostly because Offensive Pokemon are easy to KO. If Stall Pokemon had any presence in the metagame, I think Rock Polish would be a mediocre set.

Scarf Genesect is a bit different. I still think it's the best revenge killer Pokemon has ever had to offer. U-turn mind games are pretty annoying though. If I have any complaint, it's the pure guessing game involved in deciding whether Genesect will U-turn or attack for the KO. The Scarf set is harder to characterize as "broken" because it won't sweep a good team.

Right now, I'd say I'm leaning towards an Uber vote. It'd be hard for me to say that any Pokemon used as much as Genesect shouldn't be Uber. However, I do think there are more broken Pokemon/Strategies than Genesect right now. Namely Rain and Deoxys-D.

Tell me your thoughts guys!
 
Honestly, when I was playing on the suspect ladder (about a week ago) I didn't see much rain at all. There was a lot of HO and sand as well as a little rain, and I actually enjoyed the metagame quite a bit. OU Current was a pain for me, and RP Gene honestly just sweeps too easily in this meta. Scarf set isn't really broken, but it's absolutely amazing at what it does (gain momentum) and much of the time there's just no reason not to use it on offensive teams.

Leaning towards voting it Uber, mostly due to the RP set.
 
I'd like to hear some opinions from this round's qualified voters regarding Genesect.

Personally, I enjoyed the Current OU Ladder a lot more than Suspect. The Suspect Ladder was just Rain vs. Rain all the time. I had one of my friends advise me to "take a Rain Offense team with Genesect and put on Sub CM Jirachi." Amusingly enough, that turned out to be an easy way to make a team for the Suspect metagame. It could be that the OU Ladder is a bit more diluted in terms of player number and skill level, but at least there was some variety.

On the topic of Genesect, I'm pretty much on the borderline. There are times when I think that Genesect is great and needs to be banned, but then there are times I no longer think so. Right now, its best set is definitely the Rock Polish set, but I think that's more symptomatic of how BW2 OU works right now. I've never seen such an offensively oriented metagame, ever. Rock Polish Genesect is so devastating mostly because Offensive Pokemon are easy to KO. If Stall Pokemon had any presence in the metagame, I think Rock Polish would be a mediocre set.

Scarf Genesect is a bit different. I still think it's the best revenge killer Pokemon has ever had to offer. U-turn mind games are pretty annoying though. If I have any complaint, it's the pure guessing game involved in deciding whether Genesect will U-turn or attack for the KO. The Scarf set is harder to characterize as "broken" because it won't sweep a good team.

Right now, I'd say I'm leaning towards an Uber vote. It'd be hard for me to say that any Pokemon used as much as Genesect shouldn't be Uber. However, I do think there are more broken Pokemon/Strategies than Genesect right now. Namely Rain and Deoxys-D.

Tell me your thoughts guys
Interestingly, I agree with the majority of your analysis of sect's sets but not necessarily with your conclusion. I think it's become clear during the test that RP is the only set pointing towards brokenness. I think your comment about RP's functioning particularly well vs. offense is good, and scarfsect is definitely limited in being able to sweep any well-constructed team. I'm not actually not sure why you're concluding that sect is indeed broken from your post--is it just his obscene usage in the suspect stats?
 
Interestingly, I agree with the majority of your analysis of sect's sets but not necessarily with your conclusion. I think it's become clear during the test that RP is the only set pointing towards brokenness. I think your comment about RP's functioning particularly well vs. offense is good, and scarfsect is definitely limited in being able to sweep any well-constructed team. I'm not actually not sure why you're concluding that sect is indeed broken from your post--is it just his obscene usage in the suspect stats?

I haven't concluded that it is broken. I asked for voter opinions because I'm personally on the fence as of now.

I think Genesect is clearly one of, if not the best Pokemon in OU. I'm currently leaning towards ban because of Genesect as a whole. Obviously its Rock Polish set is great against an offensive metagame. If the only set was Rock Polish, or if the metagame was more defensive, I wouldn't say RP is broken. Scarf is a great revenge killer, and probably the best revenge killer ever in Pokemon. It's a superior version of Scarf Jirachi. If that were the only set, I wouldn't necessarily think its broken. Then, lastly, I look at the usage statistics (which albeit don't mean that much), and 50% usage is ridiculous. Any random player can stick Genesect on their team and make it better, which is pretty scary.
 
I'd like to hear some opinions from this round's qualified voters regarding Genesect.

Personally, I enjoyed the Current OU Ladder a lot more than Suspect. The Suspect Ladder was just Rain vs. Rain all the time. I had one of my friends advise me to "take a Rain Offense team with Genesect and put on Sub CM Jirachi." Amusingly enough, that turned out to be an easy way to make a team for the Suspect metagame. It could be that the OU Ladder is a bit more diluted in terms of player number and skill level, but at least there was some variety.

On the topic of Genesect, I'm pretty much on the borderline. There are times when I think that Genesect is great and needs to be banned, but then there are times I no longer think so. Right now, its best set is definitely the Rock Polish set, but I think that's more symptomatic of how BW2 OU works right now. I've never seen such an offensively oriented metagame, ever. Rock Polish Genesect is so devastating mostly because Offensive Pokemon are easy to KO. If Stall Pokemon had any presence in the metagame, I think Rock Polish would be a mediocre set.

Scarf Genesect is a bit different. I still think it's the best revenge killer Pokemon has ever had to offer. U-turn mind games are pretty annoying though. If I have any complaint, it's the pure guessing game involved in deciding whether Genesect will U-turn or attack for the KO. The Scarf set is harder to characterize as "broken" because it won't sweep a good team.

Right now, I'd say I'm leaning towards an Uber vote. It'd be hard for me to say that any Pokemon used as much as Genesect shouldn't be Uber. However, I do think there are more broken Pokemon/Strategies than Genesect right now. Namely Rain and Deoxys-D.

Tell me your thoughts guys!

My biggest problem with Genesect is how much the metagame revolves around it. There's little reason not to use it on most teams. It's offensive stats are great, and it can take a hit pretty decently too. The list of checks that RP Genesect has are so limited that most teams are typically not going to have more than one of them, essentially making the match boil down to "Can I keep my RP Genesect check alive long enough to prevent a sweep." Admittedly, there are other situations in which you might only have one check for a given threat, but I think that particular issue with Genesect is a lot more significant. Scarf Genesect is a great set, too, and wouldn't be banworthy imo if you didn't also have to take into consideration its even more devastating RP set every time you see one. Because of the degree to which it can fill both of those roles, though, there's no way that I'm not going to vote it Uber.
 
My biggest problem with Genesect is how much the metagame revolves around it.

Can you explain this to me more, because while I know Genesect is used a lot I would say theres tons of stuff the metagame revolves around more than Genesect. Specifically Weather and Deo-D.
 
I would disagree that weather in general and Deoxys-D are a more dominant force in the current metagame than deoxys-D. The only weather that is comparable to how overbearing its effect on the metagame is would be Rain. Deoxys-D is a terribly difficult pokemon to deal with (It's totally suspect worthy, as well, imo), but dealing with it is relatively straightforward. The only two things you generally have to consider with Deoxys-D are whether or not it's going to lead and how you'll approach either situation. Dealing with Genesect isn't nearly as linear (this in itself doesn't make genesect broken. There are several other pokemon who require more thought and preperation to deal with than Deoxys-D as well) and often requires you to completely cater how you approach the match in order to not get screwed over by a potential Rock Polish or Expert Belt set.

I've seen several people argue that it really isn't difficult to tell whether or not a Genesect is running Rock Polish by how early it will appear in a match. While I agree that generally this may be true, it's not something I would rely heavily on in determining its set. A rock polish set using expert belt, for example, can work very similarly to the standard set that likes to bluff a scarf since it doesn't have to deal with recoil damage from Life Orb revealing its set, and then, at the perfect moment, gets a Rock Polish boost to finish the match.

Essentially, I just think that Genesect has way too many opportunities to screw you over because it requires you to hope that you guessed its set right. Deoxys-S was in a similar boat. You had to lead with your best answer to it and hope that it wasn't running HP fire to deal with your Scizor or Superpower to deal with your Tyranitar.
 
Sure, thoughts.

Rock Polish
One thing that makes the Rock Polish set so devastating is the extensive selection of viable moves it has at its disposal. While other pokemon can often run a pretty wide variety of sets, once players have established that, for example, an opponent’s Salamence is a Dragon Dance variant, they generally know what attacks to expect and can react accordingly. Genesect, however, can stock up on any combination of Ice Beam, Thunder(/bolt), Flamethrower, Giga Drain, Bug Buzz, and apparently HP Water now. Even though you can often intuit that the opponent’s Genesect is a Rock Polish build part-way through the match, you still have no idea what you can safely answer it with because nearly every potential RP Genesect check is entirely dismantled by one of the listed moves. (Terrakion: Giga Drain/HP Water, Heatran: HP Water, Rotom-W: Giga Drain, Tentacruel: Thunder, Jellicent: Thunder/Giga Drain, Tyranitar: Bug Buzz… Heatran, Specially Defensive Ninetales, and Blissey/Chansey are probably the safest answers, but these are all either cleanly picked off by Dugtrio/worn down from lack of reliable recovery or at a severe disadvantage against most of the surrounding metagame.) Running specific attacks to disrupt traditional checks isn’t a new concept, but decisions to do so often greatly limit overall coverage for the sake of eliminating such a select obstacle. Genesect, though, retains great coverage and power with almost any arrangement of the attacks listed. As a result, players are forced to carry multiple “conditional” Genesect checks to stop every moveset strand of the Rock Polish set. It might not be able to kill absolutely everything in the metagame with only three moves at its disposal, but it can kill a good majority, and by the time you figure out which hazardous moves it isn’t carrying, it’s likely that Genesect will have already done irreparable damage. The potential turn-free Special Attack boost from Download just worsens matters by letting an already potent offensive threat boost its firepower and double its speed in a time span other pokemon would kill to replicate.

Choice Scarf
I think the Scarf set actually teeters on the cusp of brokenness as well for a number of reasons already discussed in this thread. As a balanced player who hasn’t yet jumped aboard the crazy offense train, I ended up running two Rocky Helmet pokemon on my team last round just to ensure Scarf Genesect actually lost *something* when it came in. Genesect is such a disgustingly effective user of Choice Scarf because its momentum-stealing STAB U-turn is accompanied by a broad range of similarly powerful supplementary moves with incredible super effective coverage against the majority of the tier. In conjunction with one another, these factors place most defending players in a bad position picking between the lesser of multiple evils. (Genesect can U-turn for momentum if you switch and can either KO your active pokemon with a coverage move or beat it down while grabbing another advantageous matchup through U-turn if you decide to stay in.) Other comparable momentum pokemon like Scarf Landorus, Scarf Jirachi, and CB Scizor all fall short when compared with Genesect. Landorus and Jirachi have problems with, among other things, weak U-turns (which means that the defending pokemon isn’t really punished for staying in on such an attack--not the case with Genesect), while Scizor lacks the speed and coverage necessary to immediately threaten the majority of the metagame with KOs and force players into the lose-lose situation Scarf Genesect often creates. Genesect’s durable typing, impressive attacking stats, excellent movepool, and auto-activating ability render its Scarf set significantly more threatening to the metagame than the competitors previously mentioned.

I agree that the metagame contains compound strategies that are arguably more broken than our current suspect, but I don’t think it contains any other individual pokemon as multi-dimensionally dangerous as Genesect. 50% usage is unprecedented and absurd--that alone should attest to Genesect's abilities in the hands of good players.
 
I'm on the fence as well, and am not sure how I will vote at the end of this round. On one hand, here is an incredible sweeper who after one turn of set up potentially has +1 Special Attack and +2 Speed. It basically decimates everything in the tier save for a couple of checks/counters (Heatran, Jirachi in the Rain (who cannot KO Genesect but can cripple with Paralysis) and the blobs) and very little priority (basically just Mach Punch since Aqua Jet is pretty rare). The Scarf set, while very good at scouting/cleaning is not broken at all since there are Scarfers that are just as good at cleaning (Keldeo/Salamence/Terrakion/Lati@s) and just as good at scouting (Rotom-W, Jirachi, Landorus, any of the Therians). Genesect excels at both of these catagories at the same time, which is why it sees so much usage. Choice Band Scizor was similar in DPP since it could scout and clean in a similar way. Both of them thrive on the mid to end game to do most of their damage.

A lot of people complain of Genesect's versatility. It is a similar case to Salamence in DPP, where you had to figure out its set first before you can beat it. Same thing here, if Genesect has the right set it could be gg depending on what you do. There aren't many pokemon that stray from 1-2 sets in this game so when a pokemon can run 5-6 sets (Scarf, Band, Specs, EBelt, RP, might be missing something) effectively it is alarming. This is where Genesect could possibly be uber, because every set is threatening and obviously it could be game over if it sets up RP at the right time. But wait; isn't this the same as every other sweeper in OU? What is the difference between this and Terrakion or Volcarona? Terrakion forces a lot of switches and can set up on a good number of pokemon. Volcarona requires a bit more support but if it gets this support then it becomes the most threatening sweeper in the game. Landorus-T is similar as well since it can bluff a defensive set, force a switch and get a RP up to sweep with that impressive Attack stat. So I think the question here is what does Genesect have that makes it more threatening than these sweepers? U-turn? Less counters? Is it just because Genesect is the suspect so a different light is shone on it while the rest hide under the radar (for now anyway)?
 
Imo Genesect has an easier time bluffing/setting up cause of it's great typing, great coverage and thus less counters. Also specific counters are needed for its specific sets which brings us back to versatility.
 
IMPORTANT NEWS BULLETIN

due to time conflicts with the official smogon tournament, we're going to have to end this round early so r1 isn't delayed by a very long time. the round will now end on November 27th at 11:59 PM EST. sry for the inconvenience, but i think it's better than people going nuts after losing to genesect in r1 if it's banned!!!!
 
Ahm, it's pretty annoying to say the least... Especially for people who don't have much time to play during the week when you inform us so late.

Back to topic, I'd find it really unfortunate to be shy now about Genesect ban, because next round if Rain is under suspect I bet there will be comments like "It's not so broken, because other teams still have Genesect".

In the end nothing change, everybody is afraid of banning OP things, and a lot of balanced pokemons and strategies will stay under the mud.

Imagine we don't ban Genesect. Next round about Rain (if I correctly understood), if we do ban stuff to reduce Rain's power, we will probably be condemned to do once again a suspect about Genesect after. Basically we would have lost time.

And if we put Deoxys-D under suspect, people will bring this type of comment "Yes but Genesect can U-Turn and kill in two turns Deoxys-D if it get the +1Atk, or RP and 0HKO it if it gets the +SpA".

So while I agree that Genesect kinda "holds things together", to me it just means that by banning Genesect, we fit into the scheme of improving the whole meta.
This is a first step.

I hope I managed to make my thoughts clear :\
 
I have been using RP Genesect and Scarf Genesect throughout my time on OU current ladder. I'd like to share my experiences:

RP Genesect is a mighty powerful sweeper. I have swept many teams with it. However, there were times where I cannot capitalize on the free opportunity to Rock Polish, because it's too early in the game, and counters to RP Genesect are still present. There were times when that would be the only chance for a RP sweep (say a Scarf Genesect locked into Ice Beam), so I would never get that RP boost. Genesect without RP is vulnerable to just about everything in this speedy metagame. So it's utility was rather limited if I can't get the RP off.

Scarf Genesect was bound to the same shortcomings as other Scarfed pivots - it can either U-turn to preserve precious momentum or use it coverage move for revenge / surprise kill at a risk of being set-up bait the following turn. Sometimes, you have enough leeway to make these risks for an extra kill, but come late-game and I found revenge-kills to be a taxing endeavor, especially since most of Genesect's moves are so exploitable. Genesect locked into Thunderbolt? Agility Thundurus, Rock Polish Landorus, or Sub Kyurem-B says hi. Locked into Flamethrower? SubSalac Terrakion or Keldeo is gonna bust you. Locked into Ice Beam? Brace for a RP Genesect or again Keldeo rampage. Magnezone traps and kill all Genesect locked into anything but U-turn / Flamethrower. The presence of Magnezone make revenge-killing that Tornadus-T / +2 Gyarados etc into risky business.

What makes Genesect even a less useful scarfer is that it lacks any powerful spam move. Sure DL boost will give you a free +Atk or +SpA boost, but that hardly means anything when these special moves are unSTABbed or when Genesect's Attack is uninvested. I've actually cleaned late-game with Scarf Landorus (in sand), Mienshao, or Terrakion. Of course Keldeo and Salamence does this well, too, albeit they lack pivot moves. Hell, Scarf Heatran swept me once! You really can't do this with Genesect, unless the team is SEVERELY weakened.

ala, you mentioned Genesect having innumerable viable sets, but that doesn't amount to anything if each individual set have sufficient checks. Think of Dragonite, who has CB, Rain mixed, Offensive DD, Sub Roost DD, and Shuffler set. Or Landorus who can pull off Rock Polish, Scarf, EB, Gravity, and even some Sheer Force & U-turn set. Versatility is not punishable by a ban. It's only when among these sets exist one or more sets that are "broken" then we should consider banning anything.

From my play experience, Genesect is certainly a useful mon - it's pretty much the Scizor or Rotom-W of BW2. Hell, Genesect is probably as significant a player as the weather abusers. Genesect can easily fit into Rain teams, Sun teams, Sand teams, weatherless teams - hence the bloated usage compared to that of Tornadus-T and other weather-centric mons. However, the goodness ends here. Genesect's unboosted Speed (especially if it goes Modest), is nothing to write home about, falling prey to pretty much the rest of the metagame (this metagame is the most fast-paced meta yet). Scarf Genesect is also hindered by the lack of spammable moves other than U-turn and being vulnerable in becoming set-up bait. To reiterate, Genesect has been a very good mon for me, but certainly not overpowered.
 
@Pocket

I agree with what you said on versatility, where by itself it doesn't warrant a ban. That's why I compared it to Salamence in DPP who was later voted uber. The whole problem with Salamence was you never knew what set it ran when it was first sent out, so you had to hope it wasn't the one that could sweep you. Salamence also had bulky waters who could almost always check it (not outright counter) much like Genesect has Heatran (I read somewhere that +1 LO Thunder does like 46% to Heatran, so if it's that set watch out Heatran!).

So Salamence wasn't banned because one set was particularly powerful or broken, it was the fact that ALL of its sets were really strong, and depending on the set it could have been auto lose for you. Genesect has the same vibe to me, everything it can do it does really well. Its RP set is probably the strongest one, but in terms of utility, the Scarf one is also really good. In terms of brute force, EBelt and the other Choice sets are incredibly power as well and dent stuff that would normally be able to take on Genesect.
 
Pocket Scarf Genesect can easily clean teams with a +1 Bug Buzz which is as strong as Scarf Landorus's EQ in sand. Just sayin'...
 
Maybe I'm just a scrub but I don't really feel that way about Genesect where you don't know what set it is running. With team preview and the way the opponent plays early on you can sort of feel what set it's running. Of course that isn't 100% accurate but I find it to be very accurate. :O
 
That is true, alexwolf. However, that's with a +1 SpA boost that is not as guaranteed as a Sand boost from TTar. Good luck trying to sweep with +0 Bug Buzz.

And this is where Genesect's ability shows its faults. Sure unlike Porygon2, Genesect has solid Atk and SpA to make use of either boosts. However, it's not as consistent when it comes to sweeping with say Scarf Bug Buzz or RP. The opponent can easily alter their defensive IVs or more 4 EVs into SpD, etc to manipulate Genesect's offensive stats. Arguably, Genesect could have been better off with Tinted Lens than Download if its main purpose was sweeping. Not saying that Download is a shitty ability on Genesect, because it's excellent, but it's certainly not perfect, and it's exploitable by the opponent to the extent that Genesect's power is a non-threat for me.

ala, the thing is, DPP =/= BW2. There are many DPP Salamence in BW2, so the uncertainty of a dangerous Pokemon's set is nothing new. Team Preview helps a lot here, because if you mispredict, you can still form a contingency plan (ie Okay, Landorus-I wasn't RP but some EB set; my Celebi just got ruined by U-turn, so I have to keep my Rotom-W healthy to check Landorus and Keldeo). I wouldn't say DPP Salamence and Genesect are a fair comparison to begin with, since Salamence has much more nuke power / wall-breaking potential than Genesect, who is primarily special.
 
And this is where Genesect's ability shows its faults. Sure unlike Porygon2, Genesect has solid Atk and SpA to make use of either boosts. However, it's not as consistent when it comes to sweeping with say Scarf Bug Buzz or RP. The opponent can easily alter their defensive IVs or more 4 EVs into SpD, etc to manipulate Genesect's offensive stats. Arguably, Genesect could have been better off with Tinted Lens than Download if its main purpose was sweeping. Not saying that Download is a shitty ability on Genesect, because it's excellent, but it's certainly not perfect, and it's exploitable by the opponent to the extent that Genesect's power is a non-threat for me.

Do you genuinely believe that Tinted Lens Genesect would be more effective than download for sweeping................? That tinted lens Bug Buzz/U-turn sure will show those Heatran what's up, right?
 
And this is where Genesect's ability shows its faults. Sure unlike Porygon2, Genesect has solid Atk and SpA to make use of either boosts. However, it's not as consistent when it comes to sweeping with say Scarf Bug Buzz or RP. The opponent can easily alter their defensive IVs or more 4 EVs into SpD, etc to manipulate Genesect's offensive stats. Arguably, Genesect could have been better off with Tinted Lens than Download if its main purpose was sweeping. Not saying that Download is a shitty ability on Genesect, because it's excellent, but it's certainly not perfect, and it's exploitable by the opponent to the extent that Genesect's power is a non-threat for me.
.

This is part of what I have a problem with. Why should I be forced to use an inferior pokemon because of Genesect?
 
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