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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 8 - Mr. Roboto (SEE POST #240)
- Thread starter Aldaron
- Start date
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Lady Alex, it really doesn't matter that Genesect has a strong U-turn than Landorus-I. This meta can take it. We adapted to tank a U-turn from CB Scizor, so Scarf Genesect's U-turn is nothing special. Neither are its special moves, since it's nothing compared to Keldeo in the rain / Volcarona in the Sun / Draco Meteor from Latios, etc. It's just one of the best Scarf Volt-Turner out there; nothing broken about that.
Yea, I mis-communicated. I mentioned Volcarona, because I find it to be a much scarier set-up mon than Genesect, and it's not hard to set up the right conditions to achieve the win condition with Volcarona. The bottom line: Genesect is not even the most powerful sweeper out there - why all the fuss?
Genesect is just way under the league of Ubers, such as Blaziken, Excadrill, and even Thundurus-I. They were large centralizing forces that drastically restricted team-building. Genesect is merely very good. I would worry about my team checking Keldeo and Tornadus-T, etc before Genesect.
Yea, I mis-communicated. I mentioned Volcarona, because I find it to be a much scarier set-up mon than Genesect, and it's not hard to set up the right conditions to achieve the win condition with Volcarona. The bottom line: Genesect is not even the most powerful sweeper out there - why all the fuss?
Genesect is just way under the league of Ubers, such as Blaziken, Excadrill, and even Thundurus-I. They were large centralizing forces that drastically restricted team-building. Genesect is merely very good. I would worry about my team checking Keldeo and Tornadus-T, etc before Genesect.
Seconding everything pocket said--IMO, genesect is only seen as being broken because of its versatility --> high usage. It's not more powerful than other OU sweepers, doesn't have more set-up options, doesn't have better STABs or whatever. It has a ton of viable moves, which makes it very hard to give one counter for every sect set. Fine. That's really it though. Not broken in the least IMO.
My point was only that, except for a few instances (Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Salamence and Volcarona being the only ones I can immediately think of) threatening base 100s at +1, Landorus-I pales in comparison to the usefulness of Genesect as a Scarfer.
That's debatable. There are few pokemon right now that require as few pokemon to be gone to sweep as Genesect does. I'd say the closest thing to being able to easily sweep a team is sub SD Terrakion. Unlike Terrakion however, Genesect is weak to no priority moves, so there really isn't anything capable of revenging it at all.
Even if Genesect isn't as drastically overpowering as the pokemon you mentioned, it doesn't mean that it fits in the OU metagame in a positive way. I think it's Suspect Usage for October says a lot about how Genesect fits in the metagame. Right now, OU completely revolves around Genesect. There is almost no reason not to use some variant of Genesect on a team, and that's a telltale sign of centralization.
after playing way too many suspect ladder matches i have come to the conclusion that, while genesect is broken, the metagame is so god awful without it that i really don't want it gone...as i'm sure many of you have realized, every single team on suspect ladder (including my own) is rain spam and i'm just really sick of it but at the same time genesect is just so broken...
needless to say i am very conflicted over this
needless to say i am very conflicted over this
I didn't really see a huge upsurge of rain teams on my suspect ladder run. I saw way more Sand Offense teams than Rain. Anyway, if Genesect is broken, it deserves to be banned, regardless of what one's opinion on what the metagame after it is. If, after something is banned, we find that something else becomes too dominant in the metagame, it will likely be banned as well.
I dont know about you guys but for me Genesect isnt that super scary sweeper but more of a pivot-like mon....
To get another point of view i tried out an offensive team with RP-Sect and somehow Genesect wasnt really threatening me nor did i sweep with Genesect every single game (alt: moaning).
Played both suspect and normal ladder extensively and didnt really find much differences. Genesect influences the metagame less than i thought because the teams are pretty much the same.
And these standard rainteams (politoed+torn-t + thund-t/ferro/w.e.) are sooooo boring to face but not really overpowered either.
tl;dr: Seconding pockets points.
@Land-I vs. Genesect as a scarfer: Yeah Land-I is purely physical, until you realize Scarf-Land-I could also use Sheer Force and 3 special attacks + u-turn on the scarf-set wothout even losing much....
To get another point of view i tried out an offensive team with RP-Sect and somehow Genesect wasnt really threatening me nor did i sweep with Genesect every single game (alt: moaning).
Played both suspect and normal ladder extensively and didnt really find much differences. Genesect influences the metagame less than i thought because the teams are pretty much the same.
And these standard rainteams (politoed+torn-t + thund-t/ferro/w.e.) are sooooo boring to face but not really overpowered either.
tl;dr: Seconding pockets points.
@Land-I vs. Genesect as a scarfer: Yeah Land-I is purely physical, until you realize Scarf-Land-I could also use Sheer Force and 3 special attacks + u-turn on the scarf-set wothout even losing much....
Since now I'm really close from being able to vote, I hope my messages wont get deleted ^.^
Anyway, I'm for the ban for all the reasons GaryTheGengar mentionned. Everything has been perfectly said on this point :o
For the Suspect ladder, I agree that I saw SO MANY rain teams. Yes it's insane (like 75% for now, and a lot of Jirachi sub CM or stuff like that). But I prefer play against a rain team than against a Genesect to be honest ;)
It is counterable if you focus on shutting down stuff like Tornadus-T and Keldeo. I made myself a Rain team, focused on the countering of the classic Rain team, and I feel like I'm not the only one doing this.
Once I get the reqs in suspsect I'll try to play with a more creative team, I think there are a lot of unused rooms for this !
I prefer this ladder much, but it's mainly because here the pairing is "better", you meet people at 1700+ more often (but that's another story I know :<).
Anyway, this is the way to go in my opinion. Ban overpowered stuff one by one, and not try to balanced overpowered pokemons by other overpowered pokemons.
By the way, I think Mamoswine can be a deadly sweeper in suspect, shutting down Genies and Jirachi; gotta try it !
Anyway, I'm for the ban for all the reasons GaryTheGengar mentionned. Everything has been perfectly said on this point :o
For the Suspect ladder, I agree that I saw SO MANY rain teams. Yes it's insane (like 75% for now, and a lot of Jirachi sub CM or stuff like that). But I prefer play against a rain team than against a Genesect to be honest ;)
It is counterable if you focus on shutting down stuff like Tornadus-T and Keldeo. I made myself a Rain team, focused on the countering of the classic Rain team, and I feel like I'm not the only one doing this.
Once I get the reqs in suspsect I'll try to play with a more creative team, I think there are a lot of unused rooms for this !
I prefer this ladder much, but it's mainly because here the pairing is "better", you meet people at 1700+ more often (but that's another story I know :<).
Anyway, this is the way to go in my opinion. Ban overpowered stuff one by one, and not try to balanced overpowered pokemons by other overpowered pokemons.
By the way, I think Mamoswine can be a deadly sweeper in suspect, shutting down Genies and Jirachi; gotta try it !
Just chiming in to add to what Lady Alex said.
This thing steals momentum and controls the game more than anything else we have seen before. It even is a dangerous sweeper with the RP set.
Seconding this.
Most set up sweepers are like that, though it's more noticeable when we compared to the Scarf set.
Well, with how instantly threatening Genesect is to the majority of the metagame, it is a pretty gutsy move for your opponent to risk just on the off chance you are bluffing a RP set.
I guess you were comparing the two earlier. Dunno, just didn't want somebody to think RP was support heavy and could only clean weakened teams (which is from it).
Well, CB/CS/ and non-choice 4 attacks are scary good wallbreakers. It's the metagame that forces these sets to be the ones worth using.
Eveybody attacks ScarfSect for his speed but the only guys he is failing to revenge kill are Salamence and Volcarona. Even Terrakion has a mon or two it can't revenge kill (like Breloom). Magnezone is going to have a hard time trapping Genesect as it can only come in on a well predicted BoltBeam (or Iron Head and Bug Buzz) somehow avoiding a Flamethrower. Or it comes in after Genesect revenge kills something with those moves. In any case, there isn't a single mon I can think of that can't be screwed over by a trapper and Genesect spamming U-Turn makes it harder than for most. Genesect has a STAB U-Turn paired with a VERY wide coverage attacks and Download to give it a pseudo Choice Band/Specs. A STAB Download boosted U-Turn is a very significant difference from Scarf-Lando. That coverage also sets it apart as it forces switches and dissuades many from taking the risk of coming in. You may be able to switch in your Gliscor, Keldeo, Forry, or Skarmory into Scizor no problem but you can't take that risk with Genesect as it just takes one properly predicted Flamethrower, Ice Beam, or Thunderbolt to nab an easy kill (whereas a proper prediction on your part means you reduced the damage done from a U-Turn).
Really? The only things that can reliably and repeatedly switch into ScarfSect are Chansey (U-Turn still bites), Heatran (Lol, HP Ground), and Terrakion in the sand (watch out for Flash Cannon/Iron Head). If SR isn't up then stuff like Ninetails, Kyurem-B, and Volcarona are okay switch-ins. Outside of that people have had to dig into UU and under to find stuff like Hitmontop and Rotom-H. This isn't even considering the possibility of Dugtrio who can trap most of his few switch-ins and has even given birth to stuff like RestTalk Shed Shell Heatran. If this isn't centralizing or restricting team-building I'm not sure what is. (Then there are stuff cutting their own stats to avoid a unwanted Download boost)
Of course he is, it's his metagame :P.
Just wanted to say that while I totally agree that the suspect ladder metagame sucks, that's not really a good reason NOT to ban Genesect. If anything, that just means that Rain is incredibly dominant and should be put up for suspect. When every team follows the same formula because teams that don't just get trampled, something must be done to change that. That change to me is the fact that Rain is broken and needs to go asap.
geez really? i played 12 matches today and 11 of them were against rain (10 rain offense, 1 rain stall, 1 sun)
also yes ala i agree, i'll probably still vote to ban genesect, i just don't like doing it because i know it'll make the meta even worse
Genesect can switch into a bunch of threats that other scarfers can't resist, that's one of the attractive features of the Scarf set. Genesect also gets minimum Stealth Rock damage and gets to recast it's Download ability each time it enters the field, minimizing some of the randomness of the ability by the fact it doesn't plan to remain long in play. All these features make this set very hard to compare with other scarfers by talking exclusively about Coverage and Speed, Genesect's resistances are pretty much unmatched in the high speed tiers.
Also, you don't need to be "broken" to be banned from OU, you just need to be unhealthy for the game. If the stats show Genesect around 50% again, people who want to keep it would need to do a compelling argument about that much usage being good or at least not damaging for the rest of the format. Obviously, the best tool to watch this properly is the Genesect-less ladder.
Also, you don't need to be "broken" to be banned from OU, you just need to be unhealthy for the game. If the stats show Genesect around 50% again, people who want to keep it would need to do a compelling argument about that much usage being good or at least not damaging for the rest of the format. Obviously, the best tool to watch this properly is the Genesect-less ladder.
just a general statement that drizzle's prevalence on the suspect ladder should not be a reason to dissuade you from voting genesect uber if you think genesect is broken, as drizzle/politoed/rain abusers will almost certainly be tested next
remember friends, as aldaron said in the OP, this test isn't to gauge which metagame you like better -- it's to test genesect's effect on OU and determine its brokenness
remember friends, as aldaron said in the OP, this test isn't to gauge which metagame you like better -- it's to test genesect's effect on OU and determine its brokenness
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 50+ usage was only on the suspect ladder, which is extremely biased and frankly unrepresentative of the true state of the metagame (people using the same teams to ladder quickly, slapping teams together --> high sect usage).
Also, what about the option of testing something like excadrill in OU? That would certainly help reduce the dominance of rain, and the consensus in DW was that excadrill was not broken in the least.
Also, what about the option of testing something like excadrill in OU? That would certainly help reduce the dominance of rain, and the consensus in DW was that excadrill was not broken in the least.
DW also had Deoxys-S, Thundurus, Blaziken (for a bit), Darkrai, ST Chandelure and some others I'm not remembering right now. But the point is the power creep in DW compared OU was pretty massive, and that particular metagame could handle Excadrill. I think Excadrill would still be broken even with the dominance of Rain, and Rain would just be even more common to combat Excadrill. Let's face it, Rain isn't all that concerned with a 300 speed mon that is basically similar to Garchomp (similar stats, swords dance, Garchomp has better coverage too). You would probably see an increase of Scarf Toed too.
Edit: Just a point on Genesect's usage. We have banned stuff from OU with way less usage than Genesect, and kept things that had way more usage as well. Scizor in dpp at its peak had around 30% usage, and nobody argued that it was broken. Usage just isn't a good indicator of what is broken or not.
Edit: Just a point on Genesect's usage. We have banned stuff from OU with way less usage than Genesect, and kept things that had way more usage as well. Scizor in dpp at its peak had around 30% usage, and nobody argued that it was broken. Usage just isn't a good indicator of what is broken or not.
If by brokenness you mean overpowered I'm not sure there can be an argument about Genesect being really overpowered. It's an issue about consistency and replacing other pokemon and fulfilling critical tasks, nothing else. Genesect minimizes the risk and it's appeal is that it's more consistant than other powerful pokemon because of it's versatility.
So Genesect is not really overpowered, but since it minimizes risks considerably, it may dumb down the format, the high usage already suggests that the skill needed to build a balanced team is already taking a dive.
The pros you're listing regarding Genesect can be used against it, supporting the idea that it's overpowered. There is no objective point at which a pokemon becomes overpowered, so being able to fulfill several roles as near flawlessly as it does definitely raises an eyebrow.
I'm actually kind of glad I stayed out of this suspect test, because if I had the reqs I would have a very hard time figuring out what to do with my vote. Genesect IMO, is not broken. Yes I think his RP set is absolutely disastrous if your not carrying a Heatran or a really fast Scarfer with a Fire move, and not seeing RP Genesect anymore would be great. However, it really sucks that it seems that's one of the main reasons why so many want him banned. I'm almost mad that this thing learns RP, because Scarf Gene is just not that hard to deal with, no matter what people say. I've used Scarfed Genesect on my current OU team that's had great success on PO and some of you may have seen it, and using it for so long I can't really tell you a time when I sat back after watching my battle and said, "Wow, Genesect is the only reason my team is good." I tried using a Scarfed Jirachi in place of Gene, and honestly works just as well as Genesect did, only lacking power and STAB U-Turn, but with the advantage of bulk. Scarfed Gene is extremely predictable, and is easy to lock into a move with the simple Protect move. CB Terrakion shits all over Genesect if it's not carrying Iron Head, Heatran OHKOs it, Scarfed Latios OHKOs it with HP Fire, Magnezone can trap it, scarfed Jirachi can Fire Punch it, Scarfed and DD Mence can Fire Blast it, Garchomp can Fire Fang it, Volcarona walls the shit out of it and OHKOs it, Rotom-W can paralyze it, Blissey and Chansey wall it, I mean just look at all these checks and counters to Scarf Genesect! So please, people need to stop saying that Scarf Genesect is the main problem.
RP Genesect is easy to handle at first, but once it gets up an RP, then that's when it get's tricky. Pretty much any other Genesect with the proper team building, I find no problem dealing with. It seems that the primary users of Rain teams are whining about it the most, and it's true that it definitely nerfs rain. But why is this such a bad thing? Rain is probably the most annoying thing to see in OU, and I'd rather see Genesect 50% of the time then see Rain 75% of the time. I don't know what people are talking about when they say that they aren't seeing a ton of Rain teams on PO, I've gotten sick of seeing the same Tornadus-T, Keldeo, Ferrothorn core that I think I'm going to be sick.
Honestly, if I got my reqs, I'd keep Genesect. Usage means nothing about being broken, it just shows that Genesect is extremely versatile and works great on offensive team to round off the coverage.
RP Genesect is easy to handle at first, but once it gets up an RP, then that's when it get's tricky. Pretty much any other Genesect with the proper team building, I find no problem dealing with. It seems that the primary users of Rain teams are whining about it the most, and it's true that it definitely nerfs rain. But why is this such a bad thing? Rain is probably the most annoying thing to see in OU, and I'd rather see Genesect 50% of the time then see Rain 75% of the time. I don't know what people are talking about when they say that they aren't seeing a ton of Rain teams on PO, I've gotten sick of seeing the same Tornadus-T, Keldeo, Ferrothorn core that I think I'm going to be sick.
Honestly, if I got my reqs, I'd keep Genesect. Usage means nothing about being broken, it just shows that Genesect is extremely versatile and works great on offensive team to round off the coverage.
I just got reqs on the current ladder so I think I can make a comment here. I saw three Genesect sets: Scarf was by far the most common, followed by Rock Polish, and Expert Belt the last (I don't consider Expert Belt a great set on its own but if you think Scarf is so common, Expert Belt can shine thanks to that godly coverage).
I used Scarf Genesect on my team and it was absolutely amazing. It was a good check for all the Dragon-types in the tier, be it with U-Turn for the specially based or Ice Beam for the others. It was able to maintain of momentum, which was crucial for my team and it's one of (if not The) the best Pokemon at this job. I'd like to say something to everyone saying Rotom-W paralyzes it, Heatran OHKOes, etc. Why would I stay on them? Seriously, please tell me. The problem with most Pokemon is that their checks / counters list is fairly big and you usually can't cover them all adequately with the other teammates. Genesect's list isn't big at all: Heatran, Terrakion, Gastrodon, Jirachi, and that specially defensive Vaporeon (that usually annoys every rain team) were the main ones imo. Of those, Gastro and Jirachi are the ones with reliable recovery, which means that with hazards and some U-Turns you can narrow the list to two main Pokemon but we don't even need to assume that. The list is already a bit too short for me to consider it OU material with this set but I could still be convinced otherwise, if not for the next thing.
Rock Polish was the next most common set I saw and it's a very dangerous sweeper when you give it one free turn. If you're thinking "Yeah the same can be said about many other Pokemon", think that they don't have the great defensive typing that is Bug / Steel. This lets Genesect set up in almost every single match and then it's a pain to take it down. Offensive teams have an especially hard time as they usually don't have specially defensive Heatrans, Jirachis (under rain), or pink blobs. When Offense lets something set up, their strategy is to revenge kill it with powerful priority but that doesn't work as well against Genesect thanks to its typing.
What I'm saying is that, while Scarf alone could be manageable (again, I doubt this but if it was its only set I could have doubts), Rock Polish just adds to its quality and makes it too much for the metagame.
And ugh, just noticed the post is way too big but I don't want to cut some parts now. Oh well
I used Scarf Genesect on my team and it was absolutely amazing. It was a good check for all the Dragon-types in the tier, be it with U-Turn for the specially based or Ice Beam for the others. It was able to maintain of momentum, which was crucial for my team and it's one of (if not The) the best Pokemon at this job. I'd like to say something to everyone saying Rotom-W paralyzes it, Heatran OHKOes, etc. Why would I stay on them? Seriously, please tell me. The problem with most Pokemon is that their checks / counters list is fairly big and you usually can't cover them all adequately with the other teammates. Genesect's list isn't big at all: Heatran, Terrakion, Gastrodon, Jirachi, and that specially defensive Vaporeon (that usually annoys every rain team) were the main ones imo. Of those, Gastro and Jirachi are the ones with reliable recovery, which means that with hazards and some U-Turns you can narrow the list to two main Pokemon but we don't even need to assume that. The list is already a bit too short for me to consider it OU material with this set but I could still be convinced otherwise, if not for the next thing.
Rock Polish was the next most common set I saw and it's a very dangerous sweeper when you give it one free turn. If you're thinking "Yeah the same can be said about many other Pokemon", think that they don't have the great defensive typing that is Bug / Steel. This lets Genesect set up in almost every single match and then it's a pain to take it down. Offensive teams have an especially hard time as they usually don't have specially defensive Heatrans, Jirachis (under rain), or pink blobs. When Offense lets something set up, their strategy is to revenge kill it with powerful priority but that doesn't work as well against Genesect thanks to its typing.
What I'm saying is that, while Scarf alone could be manageable (again, I doubt this but if it was its only set I could have doubts), Rock Polish just adds to its quality and makes it too much for the metagame.
And ugh, just noticed the post is way too big but I don't want to cut some parts now. Oh well
Genesect is right at home on a rain team though, and isn't that great at countering them because specially defensive Rotom-W checks the standard set. We can't let something broken stay just because it makes the meta less horrible. Once genesect is gone we can evaluate the meta without it and fix the rest of it. (Please ban drizzle/drought)
In my experience Genesect is hard to counter because his scarf set is annoying but not too bad and his rock polish set is disgustingly amazing. You can't take the steps to prevent it from setting up properly because the threat of it being scarfed and KOing what you thought was a check is too great. The scarf and rock polish sets require different plans to take care of and its far to difficult to properly scout which item it has. I've started running trick iron ball sableye for it and it does alright, but its hardly a check let alone a counter.
Rain might have problems with RP Genesect, but Genesect still excels on Rain teams as well. In fact, you could argue that without Genesect, Rain teams could potentially suffer, due to the common core of Dug / Gene / Torn (often with Scarf Keldeo thrown in) being exceptionally common on many Rain teams. Sure, getting rid of Genesect might increase the popularity of rain, but thats not the point, the entire point of this suspect test is to assess Genesect, NOT to assess Drizzle. If Genesect is broken then we get rid of it, we don't need to follow the "use broken stuff to check broken stuff" route which IMO offers a less desirable metagame.
EDIT
To be clear (since a certain someone got confused), I am not advocating the "broken balances broken" arguement.
as a preface i havent played this round
don't look at genesect as a traditional scarfer. its job is not to be some last-ditch check to offensive threats - i keep seeing references to being unable to revenge volcarona and salamence, making it a terrible scarf user (it can actually stop volcarona with explosion, which is perfectly viable and who runs max speed volcarona anyway, in fact how many volcarona do you see these days?). melee mewtwo put it perfectly, genesect is used to pick up momentum and it does this incredibly easily, revenge killing is absolutely its secondary objective. who cares if your opponent goes to heatran and takes 3% from uturn when you have a cb terrakion in the wings?
i don't add scarf genesect to my team because i need some form of last resort to set-up sweepers. in fact i hate the mentally some people have whereby they build every team with some scarfer that has to have at least 329 speed. i add scarf genesect for the same reason you would add a specially defensive rotom to an offensive weatherless/sand team. that is to switch-in with relative impunity against some threats and not only force a switch and get some useful chip damage but to also give one of my strong pokemon a free switch and even potentially a turn to set-up. the difference between rotom-w and genesect is that jellicent, politoed and friends can sponge a volt switch if they want, but latias, celebi and tyranitar do not like taking +1 u-turns off a base 120 attack stat
i'm basically rehashing what melee mewtwo said as i agreed with his post quite strongly
don't look at genesect as a traditional scarfer. its job is not to be some last-ditch check to offensive threats - i keep seeing references to being unable to revenge volcarona and salamence, making it a terrible scarf user (it can actually stop volcarona with explosion, which is perfectly viable and who runs max speed volcarona anyway, in fact how many volcarona do you see these days?). melee mewtwo put it perfectly, genesect is used to pick up momentum and it does this incredibly easily, revenge killing is absolutely its secondary objective. who cares if your opponent goes to heatran and takes 3% from uturn when you have a cb terrakion in the wings?
i don't add scarf genesect to my team because i need some form of last resort to set-up sweepers. in fact i hate the mentally some people have whereby they build every team with some scarfer that has to have at least 329 speed. i add scarf genesect for the same reason you would add a specially defensive rotom to an offensive weatherless/sand team. that is to switch-in with relative impunity against some threats and not only force a switch and get some useful chip damage but to also give one of my strong pokemon a free switch and even potentially a turn to set-up. the difference between rotom-w and genesect is that jellicent, politoed and friends can sponge a volt switch if they want, but latias, celebi and tyranitar do not like taking +1 u-turns off a base 120 attack stat
i'm basically rehashing what melee mewtwo said as i agreed with his post quite strongly
What? I hardly see any rain teams on suspect. Most are either sand defense, stall, volt-turn, or BP. I see more sun than rain, if anything else.
Everything's a lot better without genesect. Hydreigon and reuniculus are good again, along with stall being easier to pull off. I think rain
got weaker not stronger, and now tyranitar is climbing back to its pre-bw2 usage.
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