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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 8 - Mr. Roboto (SEE POST #240)

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I've been climbing back up the OU ladder, and while it might be because a bunch of the good people are really high but surprisingly I haven't seen many Genesect. (Thanks again to Electrolyte for the Breloom suggestion!) Unfortunately, I'm currently at... 1579 ± 80 on OU Current and I'm 15-10 (no real foray into Suspect yet) because I've been experimenting with teams. We'll see if I make it...

I've never had trouble with most Genesect (RP requires me to keep Jirachi alive though...), although seeing the massive constraints is places on teambuilding nowadays it might be nice to see it gone.
 
Interestingly, despite being the two best reknown counters to Genesect, both Heatran and Jirachi fell in usage from Sept to Oct. This could be because of Garchomp, but I really want to see November's list, even if it's too late, to see wether that's a valid argument for Genesect or not.

Either way, I think Genesect's main selling point is it's coverage. It has good versatility, decent speed, and good offensive stats with a great ability to boot. It's movepool however allows it to pull off surprises that could easily overthrow matches- and forces even the solidest of teams to run layers of defense against Genesect's RP and Scarf sets. If you don't have a counter to Genesect, you probably won't go very far in the world of Pokemon.

Despite being very disappointed with my personal experiences with Genesect, I also agree that it does not fit the OU tier. Its U-Turns and coverage prevent many other pokemon from fulfilling their roles effectively- Gyarados is now unconsiderable as a DDance sweeper (just don't ask Ginga), Gliscor and Lando-I have fallen, and all the steel types of the tier are ripping their screws out as they melt to nothing. If a team is having trouble with a certain type, throwing in a Genesect will nearly always help, because of it's vast coverage. There are very few pokemon Flamethrower / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Giga Drain don't hit super effectively, even wall wise, so having extra SpD won't help that much.

I think the fact that it can KO most of OU makes it unfit for this tier. It's coverage more than makes up for it's 'lack of power', and it can easily find chances to pull of a Rock Polish to offset it's low speed. It is quite the monster.
 
Well Heatran fell most likely due to the recent surge of Rain teams. Most carry a Balloon and possibly Hp Ice so Garchomp would be reluctant to switch in on it. Similarly with Jirachi, they often have Body Slam and Garchomp needs its speed too much to risk the paralysis. Not sure why it fell though seeing as its one of the better Rain counters.

As for the Suspect ladder, I'm not missing Genesect at all. All it did was muck up the ladder. As soon as you see it in team preview, you spend the whole match hoping to knock it out asap, hoping you didn't sack the wrong pokemon so you can still beat it. The difficulty of actually KOing it is what makes Genesect so good imo. It can be a pretty slippery pokemon to take on when its Uturning all over the place.
 
I think the best two sets are scarf and Rock Polish/Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Giga Drain. Giga drain seems much better than t-bolt or bug buzz.
 
In the suspect ladder, I found the lack of Genesect to be a hindrance to stall. Generally, I never struggle with Genesect when I use rain stall since Politoed and Tentacruel can scout for U-turns they can stay in on, and, if Genesect uses anything but U-turn, Chansey can come in and set up rocks/tank the hit. Scizor has much stronger u-turns and, if my opponent has rocks on my field, Tentacruel gets worn down. The problem is that, against stall, scizor never has any reason to do anything but u-turn. It's especially difficult to deal with on Deoxys-D HO teams that have replaced Genesect with Scizor. I ended up going on a losing streak because of teams like that and resorted to finishing my requirements using a baton pass team (If you want easy requirements, use BP. Seriously).

Has anyone tried using Stallbreaker Mew in the suspect ladder? With the absence of Genesect, I could see it making a comeback.
 
I actually did see some Stall breaker Mews when I was laddering (or maybe it was the same person multiple times...). Genesect leaving will definitely encourage more use of that set (not sure if it will get popular but you at least have one less reason not to use it).
 
Genesect leaving really does help stall, a common problem I have theorymoning stall teams that could've been is ending up needing to choose between a sand streamer and a Blissey, and not being able to efficiently check other weathers and Genesect at the same time. There are other reasons you wouldn't be particularly into stall atm but this does make decent teams fit together properly, you'll still have occasional Deo-D problems no matter what you do and the stallbreakers available are capable of overperforming but stall will be more suited to the resulting metagame after Genesect's ban. It won't be the best thing, but it will be a thing.

I haven't played this test through btw couldn't stomach it.
 
Woohoo, got a computer long enough to talk about my laddering.

For this particular suspect test, I didn't get much of a good idea of what Genesect himself does in this metagame as I used a Stall team that really couldn't care less about Genesect. However, I have played with both RP and, to a much larger extent, ScarfSect in previous suspect tests (which KB and Garchomp are only going to encourage more Genesect use). As far as Genesect threatening stall alexwolf and Meru explain it better than I ever could so I won't really try. As far as some other play styles, Genesect definitely helped keep Dragon Spam in check (not saying it's broken on the suspect ladder, just that it has less competition) and full Volt-Turn teams and kind of unnecessary as you just need one other Volt-Turner to pass back to Genesect (although it doesn't mean it's unviable, just that it lost its edge over any other team running Genesect) Personally, I found RP and ScarfSect to be equally good in their own ways so I won't really compare them. I will talk more about ScarfSect than RP, though, as it is the one I played the most, the most common, and the one without any close competition in its main role.

RP Genesect- I really liked it a lot and found it really easy to set up and wreck. That steel typing does wonders for finding a chance to set up. Even without the proper download boost, RPSect can still clean up a team as 120 SpAttack with his insane coverage is going to leave a mark in just about any offensive team. With the proper boost he completely wrecks the majority of the teams you fin in the metagame and even some stall teams if played properly. Like I said, I don't really have much to say about this set other than it doesn't always need the SpAtk boost and can easily set up thanks to its natural offensive presence and steel typing (plus it has an unpredictable movepool but a lot of guys have that and you get three attacks). It does face some competition from Lando and Thundy but Genesect is harder to stop once it starts and can get the needed boost easier.

ScarfSect- Don't make the mistake of calling it a revenge killer, that's its secondary purpose. The main reason to use ScarfSect is because it is a CRAZY good momentum thief. I used to bring this thing in at each and every opportunity I had as I knew that at the end of my turn with Genesect I was going to be in the better position. Because of this, most of my games wound down to who kept their Genesect and who didn't. Because of his fast speed and U-turn spam, the best way to beat the other guys Genesect was to have SR up on his side and keep it away from mine (as if that wasn't important enough). This has a big impact on a metagame dominated by weather abusers where the goal is to keep your permanent weather up the longest so that you can beat the other guy's. This was the reason GeneSun worked so well. It had powerful sun abusers that used Genesect to keep the weather war in their favor. Genesect received the support of Dugtrio and Xatu to ensure SR (and trap popular threats) could be set up with the former and block it with the latter. Weather+Genesect+Hazard Control, its pretty simple when you break it down. It's a combination of the two most dominating team support strung together almost perfectly with the manipulative Genesect. This just can't be done with something like Scizor, who is too slow and lacks the coverage Genesect has, (while download makes up for the lack of CB/CS) or Landorus, who is too weak (outside of Sand) and lacks a STAB U-turn with awesome coverage.

Sure, if Genesect doesn't get the right Download boost he isn't as effective. So builing a team that is almost entirely weaker in SpDef will lower the efficiency of my ScarfSect (unless he would rather use his coverage attacks) but that will be at the price of being set up fodder for the RPSect and vice versa.


So yeah, I'm joining the crowd with the torches and pitchforks. Hopefully Genesect won't set up on the latter to sweep past the former. (should we use rubber ones so it doesn't get the SpAtk boost?)


One last thing, the only attacks ScarfSect really MUST have is U-turn and Ice Beam. The other two depend on what team-mates you have (although Tbolt and Flamethrower are generally the better options). For example, you don't really need Flamethrower if you have a RPLando that you can U-turn to when they switch-in.
 
Just adding a random comment on moves Genesect has to run: unless your physical Gene you must run Ice Beam. I mean, Specs, Scarf, EB, and even RP MUST run it. Usually it packs coverage (either Giga or TBolt) to hit Water types too, and it has to run U-turn (or RP if the RP set too). So you pretty much don't know one attack, just kind of curious and why people call this thing unpredictable. RP are forced to only be used midgame, you will know if its choiced since everyone will abuse its wallbreaking download components, and then the scarf set like Melee said will grab momentum as much as possible. You pretty much know what Genesect set you'll face and that's why I feel it doesn't need to be banned.
 
You don't even need Tbolt/Giga on the Scarf set as every water type barring Empoleon and Keldeo are hit neutrally by U-Turn so if you are packing a Breloom or Jolteon there isn't much for you to worry about. I've run some pretty weird Scarf sets before and didn't really miss Tbolt/FThrower much (when you have team mates to cover for it). That's pretty unpredictable as he can run stuff like HP ground, Iron Head, Flash Cannon (for Kyruem B), or Bug Buzz.
 
Melee Mewtwo said:
You don't even need Tbolt/Giga on the Scarf set as every water type barring Empoleon and Keldeo are hit neutrally by U-Turn so if you are packing a Breloom or Jolteon there isn't much for you to worry about. I've run some pretty weird Scarf sets before and didn't really miss Tbolt/FThrower much (when you have team mates to cover for it). That's pretty unpredictable as he can run stuff like HP ground, Iron Head, Flash Cannon (for Kyruem B), or Bug Buzz.
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You are missing two big resists buddy: Tentacruel and Jellicent. With the popularity of Rain Tentacruel missing out him at least neutrally sucks. IMO Thunderbolt>Giga Drain on Scarf since having Thunderbolt is relevant to revenging Gyarados/high health Keldeo and more importantly getting locked into a scarfed Un-STABBED Grass move is probably the worse thing you can do against offensive teams (DDnite, RockPolish Gene, Scizor, Thundy-T, Breloom, etc.). Even better than Breloom is the classic Rotom-W, he should handle all of your bulky water problems since (of course) since it synergizes so well with gene and it has both a water resist and electric STAB. ChestoResto probably your best bet, you can bluff a Choice set while having the safety of taking a Scald's burn.
 
Melee, you do have a point, however I disagree on the RP set for that case. RP set needs as much coverage as possible therefore it usually needs Giga / TBolt even if a teammate can perform these coverages anyway since RP needs to sweep. Usually Specs set also needs it to perform wallberaking with correct coverage, but I understand the Scarf set running something like Iron Head or Bug Buzz. Just saying that most special Gene need it anyway (like EB does too, in order to bluff and kill something it needs the widespread coverage to hit as many things as possible).

Even so my point stands that the scarf set tries to nab momentum, the huge damage informs choice sets, and most RP sets can sweep early game and you can tell that its RP most of the time (especially if you see LO). The only thing that people argue that makes this unpredictable are the EB sets (which have shit usage) or the Scarf running odd attacks (which does work, but you still will probably know if its scarf since they'll spam fast u-turns anyway to grab momentum....) still proving my point that this thing is more or less predictable when it comes to the set it runs. Knowing it set makes it easier to beat....

Oh and Melee, Scarf Gene's second job is to revenge kill making TBolt more appealing if your team fails to revenge things like +1 / +2 Gyara (which should kill Jolteon and Breloom with Bounce and Waterfall respectively, especially after a Moxie boost). Not saying that Iron Head or Bug Buzz are NOT viable no scarf set (i use those moves on my Scarf Gene myself) but in general more people tend to run Tbolt for revenge / widespread coverage.
 
ThePillsburyDoughBoy said:
You are missing two big resists buddy: Tentacruel and Jellicent. With the popularity of Rain Tentacruel missing out him at least neutrally sucks. IMO Thunderbolt>Giga Drain on Scarf since having Thunderbolt is relevant to revenging Gyarados/high health Keldeo and more importantly getting locked into a scarfed Un-STABBED Grass move is probably the worse thing you can do against offensive teams (DDnite, RockPolish Gene, Scizor, Thundy-T, Breloom, etc.). Even better than Breloom is the classic Rotom-W, he should handle all of your bulky water problems since (of course) since it synergizes so well with gene and it has both a water resist and electric STAB. ChestoResto probably your best bet, you can bluff a Choice set while having the safety of taking a Scald's burn.
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Yeah, I was trying to type up a quick post before going to school and I noticed I was about to be late so I went ahead and posted it even though I knew I was some things.

I agree most Genesect should run Tbolt (GDrain should only be on RP, as you said) but they can easily drop it for another coverage move if they wanted to. My point being is that Genesect is FAR from predictable, it's the players that are.

Shurtugal said:
Melee, you do have a point, however I disagree on the RP set for that case. RP set needs as much coverage as possible therefore it usually needs Giga / TBolt even if a teammate can perform these coverages anyway since RP needs to sweep. Usually Specs set also needs it to perform wallberaking with correct coverage, but I understand the Scarf set running something like Iron Head or Bug Buzz. Just saying that most special Gene need it anyway (like EB does too, in order to bluff and kill something it needs the widespread coverage to hit as many things as possible).

Even so my point stands that the scarf set tries to nab momentum, the huge damage informs choice sets, and most RP sets can sweep early game and you can tell that its RP most of the time (especially if you see LO). The only thing that people argue that makes this unpredictable are the EB sets (which have shit usage) or the Scarf running odd attacks (which does work, but you still will probably know if its scarf since they'll spam fast u-turns anyway to grab momentum....) still proving my point that this thing is more or less predictable when it comes to the set it runs. Knowing it set makes it easier to beat....

Oh and Melee, Scarf Gene's second job is to revenge kill making TBolt more appealing if your team fails to revenge things like +1 / +2 Gyara (which should kill Jolteon and Breloom with Bounce and Waterfall respectively, especially after a Moxie boost). Not saying that Iron Head or Bug Buzz are NOT viable no scarf set (i use those moves on my Scarf Gene myself) but in general more people tend to run Tbolt for revenge / widespread coverage.
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Just two little things I wanted to point out real quick. Firstly, I did specifically mention that the Scarf set doesn't need to run Tbolt/Giga (although, I could have gone ahead and mentioned the RP does so it was more clear). Secondly, I did mention that Tbolt and Fthrower are generally the better options. Just wanted to draw attention to those things as we seem to be arguing the same thing on those two points :P.

As for being unpredictable, I agree that EB and uncommon coverage are the two ways you will see Genesect pull it off (as well as the comments about EB usage and recognizing Scarf). However, being predictable or not isn't actually an important point as to whether something should be banned or not (I'm going to go to extremes here at point out Mew) and as far as previous bans are concerned Genesect is far more unpredictable and versatile than Thundy-I, Excadrill, and Blaziken. Even knowing what set Genesect does run isn't going to make it easy to beat. You will still have to control SR for Scarf and keep your check in good health to stop RP.
 
Sorry my wording made it seem like knowing its set makes it easy to beat; I only meant that it makes it easier. Sure you know that if they're RP that you can't relax (as it sweeps mid game rather easily), but on the other hand you know you can blast it with Hurricane with Torn-T rather than switching to avoid Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. Knowing its Band or Specs guarantees you the same things with Torn-T, but also that you can scout with protect and play around the move-locked Pokemon (since I feel all choice locked Pokemon are easy to play around). That's more for the specs set than the band since band spams U-turn, but at least with band its pretty slow and easily KO'ed by most things in the meta.


Lets go back to Excadrill. Genesect is more unpredictable versus Excadrill, however, this isn't much you can do with that amazing speed tier and raw power. With Genesect, knowing its set is literally half the battle. I find it easy to scout its set and the ease is added to the fact that most of Gene's sets require you NOT to hide their particular set anyway. basically, if its not scarfed you can blast it with super powerful attacks since its speed tier is lacking and if it is scarfed you can just manage it how you manage other Volt-Turn teams. With Excadrill, you at +2 its game. It only has one set, but you can't stop it. Knowing Gene's set easily allows you to stop if it you play smartly. Even a smart player can't play around Exca on knowing its set alone; it's pretty much a weather war when you see Exca and that's all you can really do (especially since 252 / 252 / 4 defensive gliscor is dead in the meta atm).

Just saying that Genesect is not as threatening or broken at Thundy-I, Exca, or Blaziken since even though they have straightforward sets you can do little to stop them. Knowing Gene's set (and its rather easy to figure out) makes it much more manageable and further from broken than things like Torn-T (no hurricane resist or torn-t revenger = bad team, seriously, and you all want to ban Gene).
 
Except that with Volt-Turn teams you have multiple members that can work together to switch in to each of theirs (Blob for Rotom, Gliscor for Scizor, ect) most teams only have one reliable switch in to Genesect because of his incredible coverage, if even that much. (let's not forget why stuff like Rotom-H and Moltres saw usage, in DH at least) All Genesect has to do is come and threaten something out while profiting with a U-Turn and well predicted coverage move. Even if you do bring something in safely, you have to try to take the momentum back.

Sure, Genesect can't straight up sweep teams like those Ubers (or well RP gives them some competition). However, it is still a stupidly good momentum thief and being predictable isn't changing that. (I still consider my GeneSun match-up when building a new team and it still ends up being based on how well I play the match)
 
Yeah but how does that make Genesect broken if it fits well with its teammates? It grabs momentum but 3-4 Volt-Turn cores are rare in this metagame anyway. If you break the volt-turn core by killing one of Genesect's volt-turn partners than you can pretty much beat Scarf Gene since its speed tier sucks (even with scarf since every other scarfer beats it). scarf genesect grabs momentum but I would like to voice what I've said in the beginning of this discussion: Genesect is the only thing keeping Volt-Turn alive right now. When it dies stall teams and rain spam will make it virtually impossible to use that core anymore, just sayinf.
 
I feel that most of Genesect's sets are fine, but the rock polish set is broken. Shurt, how are you sure that the opponent's Genesect is rock polish when they bring it in on your landorus turn 5? Unless you want to let scarf Genesect revenge your pokes whenever it wants, you'll logically switch out, unless you have your opponent's team memorized. While most top notch sweepers, such as rock polish landorus, sd terrakion, etc, need to weaken their checks, which are pretty prevalent on teams to sweep, genesect can sweep the second it grabs that +1/+2 boost, unless the opponent has spdef tyranitar with fire blast, full health band terrakion in sand, heatran, or the blobs. Even if you're psychic, and never let the opponent bluff the scarf, there are some situations where you just cannot avoid letting genesect set up. Say you're using a team where Scizor is your only Latios check, say an offensive rain team. Unless you want it to get a kill every turn it comes in, you're going to pursuit it with Scizor. genesect can then come in and wreck your shit. Scarfers locked into the wrong move can often become free set up bait for genesect. To sum it up, most of genesect's sets are completely fine, you can't really argue that scarf is broken. Rock polish, however, is.
 
I'm not talking about Genesect in a Volt-Turn core (there isn't much point in using more than Genesect and another turner as you are just going to go back to Genesect every time) I'm talking about plain old Genesect. The team mates were brought up just to explain how you can change up your coverage moves. The problem I have with Geneset is that it gives you almost total control of your games. It's stupidly easy to force switches thanks to the imediate threat of their coverage and U-Turn whatever comes in. The opponent's team will wear down fast, especially if you got any hazards up. You can even get an easy kill if you are good with prediction and hit their check with the appropriate coverage move. Even you if you mispredict the switch-in, you just switch out and take the momentum back a few turns later. You are almost always in a win-win situation where the best your opponent can do is reduce the damage suffered and eventually wear him down with SR (if you managed to get it up and keep it up). The only time things can go wrong is when your opponent pulls a gutsy move and keeps their threatened mon in and you hit it with something it can take. Even then, that steel typing dpes wonders in minimizing the damage you take from those cases (allowing you to comfortably play more risky than your OP). He may not flat out sweep teams with a Scarf set (at least not on a regular basis, kinda like Scizor with BP) but he will still pick off kills and set a team up for a cleaner to do finish the job (your Chansey switch in isn't so great when there is an RP Lando lurking behing Genesect).

Doesn't mean much that other Scarfers outspeeds ScarfSect except from a team building perspective *continueing in next post will merge later*

Again, I talk about Scarf most because that is the set I mostly played. I used the RP set but not really enough to say more than what is already said. All I can really say is that it sets up and sweeps a lot easier than people give it credit for.

*picking up from middle of post* (remember revenging is his secondary role, you can always use double scarf if you want something faster). From a play perspective, you are going to have a hard time getting your faster Scarfer in on Genesect and hitting him. Plus most faster Scarfers are easy set-up fodder so it's pretty risky to try.
 
@garythegengar
Your argument is good, but the main point I disagree with you on is the list of sect's checks. You listed "spdef tyranitar with fire blast, full health band terrakion in sand, heatran, or the blobs". Let's add to that:
gastrodon, rain rachi, tentacruel, rotom-w, rotom-h, any somwhat bulky fire type (ninetales, volcarona, victini, any of these could run some SpD investment), kyurem, kyurem-b, quagsire, virtually any steel type in rain (aside from rachi, there's metagross, bronzong, even SpD skarmory), even something like empoleon. Several of these pokes lose if genesect runs a specific niche coverage move--giga drain for gastro and quaggy and rotom to an extent, flash cannon i guess for kyurem, tbolt for empoleon--but these all take a valuable moveslot and prevent genesect running moves it absolutely needs to, ice beam and flamethrower being the two most common.
Furthermore, there are many pokemon listed above that check genesect absolutely, such as the blobs, heatran (no one runs hp ground), steels in rain, SpD fire types, and others. Although genesect is a potent sweeper, with a list of checks this long, I honestly see no reasonable argument to ban it. I've made this comparison before, but look at terrakion. The number of pokemon I can think of that can take a +2 LO CC or SE is like skarmory (not really, dies to CC with SR damage), gliscor (and if terrakion runs air balloon or rock gem, it has no chance), slowbro (2HKOed), and tangrowth (2HKOed). That is way way scarier to me than an RPsect.
 
The thing with Gene is that while some Pokes, like Terrakion, are powerful, they are predictable. Terrakion comes in, you know that it will be using its STABs and physical Attack to rip holes. With Gene, there is no way of knowing. It could be RP, you send in Blissey, nope, its CB, U-Turns, and simultaneously rips off a huge part of Blissey's health while switching to a counter. You could think that its Scarf, switch Landorus out, nope, RP, it sweeps your HO team. You could think its a standard set, send out Heatran, again nope, HP Ground, Heatran is dead.
So many sets are viable, its not even funny. Gene can be tweaked to take out exactly what you want it to, and there really isn't any way of knowing unless your opponent is awful and makes stupid plays, in which case you shouldn't have a problem.
I think part of why people think Gene isn't that good is simply because people don't use him correctly. A ton of people just copy/paste ScarfSect and spam the obvious super effective move, and this makes it easy to "play around." Against a good player, however, Gene is a monster due to the number of useful options it has, and a little prediction on an opponent's part can turn a game around way too fast for my liking.
 
Time to post the obligatory long post.

Alrighty. For the first section of this post I can easily determine that the most painful ladder to complete was the standard OU one. It was much easier technically, but I just hated the metagame that was included in it. Genesect is something I want gone. Genesect was originally viewed as the godly Choice Scarfer user, but now it is apparent that it's best set is probably the Rock Polish sweeper. Scarf has limited revenge killing abilities and can only make great use of it's speedy U-Turn and movepool. Rock Polish takes an entirely different approach to it's wide movepool. Genesect has the great typing of steel which allows it to resist most common priorities except for a neutral Mach Punch or Aqua Jet, and with a Rock Polish set up he outspeeds every Scarfer in the game. Rock Polish sets cannot be revenged unless they are at low health, meaning that the typically only way to defeat it is through smart switching and wearing it down or straight up walling it. Giga Drain can put all of it's typical counters to the grave, Terrakion and Rotom-W can't manage to take a boosted Giga Drain unless at full health. Blissey, Heatran, and Specially Defensive Jirachi in the rain are the only true ways to take it out. After a boost it can easily sweep offensive teams and dismantle them. Genesect is limiting this metagame and really needs to go. Stall also suffers from Genesect but in an entirely different way than people expect. RP is not the hugest issue for stall, but it can still do a lot of damage depending if the opponent lacks Chansey or Heatran. The real threat that Genesect brings to stall is it's ability to force switches very well due to it's wide coverage. I have destroyed stall teams using hazards + Genesect to rack up damage and deal it out continuously. Genesect itself can't break stall, but the combination of it and hazards can. It grabs extreme momentum and can just rack up residual damage. RP Sect can't do that as effectively, but it certainly still poses a threat.

OU Suspect was an enjoyable metagame that I liked a lot more. I saw a variety of teams, stall was much more common and it was actually use a lot. During the duration of the test I liked the metagame a lot more as it was much more fun and entertaining than standard. But it also gave both team styles a huge relief as they both feared the threat of Genesect. Much better metagame.
 
Kidogo said:
@garythegengar
Your argument is good, but the main point I disagree with you on is the list of sect's checks. You listed "spdef tyranitar with fire blast, full health band terrakion in sand, heatran, or the blobs". Let's add to that:
gastrodon, rain rachi, tentacruel, rotom-w, rotom-h, any somwhat bulky fire type (ninetales, volcarona, victini, any of these could run some SpD investment), kyurem, kyurem-b, quagsire, virtually any steel type in rain (aside from rachi, there's metagross, bronzong, even SpD skarmory), even something like empoleon. Several of these pokes lose if genesect runs a specific niche coverage move--giga drain for gastro and quaggy and rotom to an extent, flash cannon i guess for kyurem, tbolt for empoleon--but these all take a valuable moveslot and prevent genesect running moves it absolutely needs to, ice beam and flamethrower being the two most common.
Furthermore, there are many pokemon listed above that check genesect absolutely, such as the blobs, heatran (no one runs hp ground), steels in rain, SpD fire types, and others. Although genesect is a potent sweeper, with a list of checks this long, I honestly see no reasonable argument to ban it. I've made this comparison before, but look at terrakion. The number of pokemon I can think of that can take a +2 LO CC or SE is like skarmory (not really, dies to CC with SR damage), gliscor (and if terrakion runs air balloon or rock gem, it has no chance), slowbro (2HKOed), and tangrowth (2HKOed). That is way way scarier to me than an RPsect.
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I'm assuming the most common / imo best set of rock polish / giga drain / flamethrower / ice beam. Specially defensive jirachi is the only steel that can check it in rain, as ferrothorn and skarmory are promptly dispatched by a +1 flamethrower (with rocks in skarm's case). Fire types are decent checks, but lose to thunder, which is a common more on the case of rock polish gene in rain (thunder / buzz / ice beam), which is also an extremely dangerous set. This set also murders fire types, save for ninetails, with a +1 special attack thunder. The kyurems are nearly ko'd by ice beam / flamethrower after rocks, and are murdered by bug buzz after them. Some of the pokes you listed do check genesect, but this their only viable niche in ou. Tentacruel is a viable, common check to the common giga drain set, but in rain, thunder will murder it, and some people still run thunderbolt on their sets outside of rain.

Other sweepers are dangerous, but are either vulnerable to revenge kills / can't break through bulky walls. You mentioned terrakion, which can be an absolute menace to defensive teams. However, it'll get one kill vs. offensive teams, and then get revenged by priority or a scarfer. If it uses rock polish, it can fail to ko some bulkier offensive pokes, let alone defensive pokemon. Genesect outspeeds all scarfers, hits like a truck, and isn't vulnerable to priority. The strongest common priority would be breloom's fight gem boosted mach punch, which maxes out at 70%.

EDIT: meant thunder instead of bug buzz. Thanks Lord of Bays for pointing that out.
 
Playing with Genesect in this suspect test made me wonder how Genesect is any better than the other incredible threats we have in BW2 OU.

I have played with Scarf Genesect and RP Genesect in the Sun (Flamethrower, Giga Drain, Ice Beam) and Rain (Bug Buzz, Thunder, HP Water). Saying that RP Genesect is better than Scarf Genesect is a fallacious statement. The utility of Scarf Genesect's fast U-turn and checking DDers and Dragons of all kinds make for an amazing pivot that will be useful in every stage of the game. RP Genesect is often reserved till late-game, making it a slightly inflexible and less supportive mon. Sure you can bluff a Scarf set, but the risk of losing Genesect prematurely is not worth it most of the time. When playing with RP Genesect, it really felt like playing with 5 mons for the majority of the game, whereas Scarf Genesect can be aggressively interjected into the game. There were games where Scarf Genesect would have been more useful than RP Genesect. That said, I wont deny the amazing sweeping potential of RP Genesect - it has swept many games for me xD. Bottom Line: Neither of the sets are superior to the other, or more specifically, RP is not superior to Scarf.

Saying all of this, and playing with and against Genesect, I never thought, "wow Genesect is so OP." It only has 2 sets that are worth using - Scarf and RP (okay and I guess the lure set). Scarf set is honestly no better than Scarf Landorus-I, and in many respects it's inferior to Landorus-I (can't check DD Mence / QD Volcarona; more vulnerable to hazards; trapped by Magnezone). Genesect's EB Lure set is slightly better than Landorus-I's EB set, thanks to Download, but it has plenty of checks by virtue of its unremarkable 99 base Speed and predictable move options (elemental moves + U-turn). RP Genesect is arguably a much more reliable end-game sweeper than RP Landorus, which relies on weak HP Ice and Focus Miss to perform its clean up. However, it's sweeping prowess is nothing out of the ordinary in this metagame. In fact, I'd argue that QD Volcarona and even Growth Venusaur to be a far more effective Sweeper than RP Genesect, since the former can literally plow through teams with very little support, while Growth Venusaur's has the immediate Speed advantage over every mon.

To put it simply, Genesect is just another powerful threat that we must prepare in order to succeed. Genesect certainly can't win games by itself, and does not narrow the gap between n00bs and skilled players. The metagame has plenty of resources to fend off Genesect, much unlike BL uber mons, such as Excadrill and even Thundurus-I. Hell, Pokemon like Keldeo is far scarier for me than Genesect. Honestly, Genesect never bothered me, and I do not understand why people are bitching about it when far more powerful threats co-exist. Genesect is perfectly at home in this current meta.

And that's what matters, btw. Do NOT vote based on Genesect's theoretical brokenness in your "ideal metagame" without Rain, Sun, Deoxys-D, Terrakion, Tentacruel, etc. All suspects must be judged based on their performance in the current meta. If we happen to ban the following weather & Pokemon, and if Genesect ends up being overpowered then, we ban it then, not now. Let's not ban based on "broken things balance broken things" theorymon nonsense, please.
 
Pocket said:
Saying all of this, and playing with and against Genesect, I never thought, "wow Genesect is so OP." It only has 2 sets that are worth using - Scarf and RP (okay and I guess the lure set). Scarf set is honestly no better than Scarf Landorus-I, and in many respects it's inferior to Landorus-I (can't check DD Mence / QD Volcarona; more vulnerable to hazards; trapped by Magnezone). Genesect's EB Lure set is slightly better than Landorus-I's EB set, thanks to Download, but it has plenty of checks by virtue of its unremarkable 99 base Speed and predictable move options (elemental moves + U-turn). RP Genesect is arguably a much more reliable end-game sweeper than RP Landorus, which relies on weak HP Ice and Focus Miss to perform its clean up. However, it's sweeping prowess is nothing out of the ordinary in this metagame. In fact, I'd argue that QD Volcarona and even Growth Venusaur to be a far more effective Sweeper than RP Genesect, since the former can literally plow through teams with very little support, while Growth Venusaur's has the immediate Speed advantage over every mon.

To put it simply, Genesect is just another powerful threat that we must prepare in order to succeed. Genesect certainly can't win games by itself, and does not narrow the gap between n00bs and skilled players. The metagame has plenty of resources to fend off Genesect, much unlike BL uber mons, such as Excadrill and even Thundurus-I. Hell, Pokemon like Keldeo is far scarier for me than Genesect. Honestly, Genesect never bothered me, and I do not understand why people are bitching about it when far more powerful threats co-exist. Genesect is perfectly at home in this current meta.

And that's what matters, btw. Do NOT vote based on Genesect's theoretical brokenness in your "ideal metagame" without Rain, Sun, Deoxys-D, Terrakion, Tentacruel, etc. All suspects must be judged based on their performance in the current meta. If we happen to ban the following weather & Pokemon, and if Genesect ends up being overpowered then, we ban it then, not now. Let's not ban based on "broken things balance broken things" theorymon nonsense, please.
Click to expand...

The difference between the effectiveness of Scarf Landorus-I and Scarf Genesect is that Genesect is primarily a special attacker who happens to have access to a pretty strong u-turn, while Scarf Landorus-I is going to be purely physical except for a weak HP ice. This makes switching into Genesect a lot more difficult. Saying that QD Volcarona can plow through teams with very little support is flat out incorrect. It has some of the same checks as Genesect, including additional ones, such as dragons/Landorus-T if you aren't running HP ice, Keldeo, Terrakion, Scarf Landorus-I, and, most significantly, it has a crippling stealth rock weakness. Venusaur has an immediate speed advantage as long as the sun stays up. The opponent for a sun team is going to do everything she can to try and make sure that Venusaur doesn't sweep their entire team at the mid-phase of a match. The only thing Genesect needs to sweep an entire team is that a few of it's checks that require them to be at full hp are weakened and a turn to set up. Genesect's sweeping potential is on a different level than Venusaur's and Volcarona's.

None of the pokemon that have been banned this gen have been able to win games by themselves. The fact that Genesect can't as well isn't a reason for it not to be banned. I'll admit that we have more tools to deal with Genesect than we did Thundurus-I or Excadrill, but (I'm referring mostly to the RP set), the number of things that can solidly deal with it are pretty limited, it's most notable stops being only Jirachi in the rain, Chansey/Blissey, and Heatran.

No one is talking about Genesect's performance in a theoretical metagame. The people who have made arguments for getting rid of Genesect haven't done so on the assumption that it will be overpowered when/if other potential suspects are banned, but that it is currently overpowered in our current metagame.
 
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