np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[Rayland]

Why has this yet to happen to my Jirachi?

My condescending tone is just a reflection of the quality of the uber arguments here. No one has explained how Tornadus-T is sweeping a large portion of the metagame with little support or providing an unfair support characteristic to allow another pokemon to sweep. If anything, this thing needs support of other pokemon to accomplish this task, LOL (Ironic, huh?). "Outlasting its counters" doesn't qualify as either argument. It sounds like smart pokemon to me, not a cry for Ubers.



No one is even talking about the Pony man.. the thing has hardeER counters than Tornadus-T. It's good to invest in a Celebi / Jellicent / Lati@ / Tentacruel and you never fear this cute little thing. Saying "CB Tar counters all of Keldeo's counters" doesn't qualify as an Uber argument either. Again, smart pokemon play.. using something to remove counters. We can play that all day. Drag-mag means Dragonite is the next suspect, right?!

Once again, the most threatening things about Tornadus-T are that powerful Hurricane, Regenerator, and it's blistering speed. Nothing can stop it from coming in, nuking something with Hurricane, and U-Turning out to whatever it wants.

I understand what you are saying, as Jirachi ans Rotom-W put a full stop to Tornadus-T when its a one on one situation, but realistically, these counters cannot come in midgame and stop it. They fail to stop it from performing its main function, which is wall breaking.

I don't believe that Keldeo should go uber. It has pretty good bulk and amazing offense, but its counters stop it rom wreaking too much havoc.

Dugtrio barely does 60, and with protect + leftovers jirachi can even avoid the to 2ko.
Anyway you cant say "rachi is trapped by dugtrio" to ban tornadus, jirachi does not give a shit about tornadus and it can counter it all day.

Also, just look at the set on the signature of raikoulover; you are saying that tornadus-t should be banned because it has no counters, lol then tell me a counter for that Salamence. Seriously if you find one thing that can counter it then ill vote tornadus uber.

Chansey, SpD Jellicent, and SpD Meloetta can take on that Salamence.

 

[Curtains]

Once again, the most threatening things about Tornadus-T are that powerful Hurricane, Regenerator, and it's blistering speed. Nothing can stop it from coming in, nuking something with Hurricane, and U-Turning out to whatever it wants.

I understand what you are saying, as Jirachi ans Rotom-W put a full stop to Tornadus-T when its a one on one situation, but realistically, these counters cannot come in midgame and stop it. They fail to stop it from performing its main function, which is wall breaking.

I don't believe that Keldeo should go uber. It has pretty good bulk and amazing offense, but its counters stop it rom wreaking too much havoc.

Just had a game where my tornadus-t was thunder waved by a xatu. It is stoppable and not really overpowering.

 

[GaryTheGengar]

Dugtrio barely does 60, and with protect + leftovers jirachi can even avoid the to 2ko.
Anyway you cant say "rachi is trapped by dugtrio" to ban tornadus, jirachi does not give a shit about tornadus and it can counter it all day.

Also, just look at the set on the signature of raikoulover; you are saying that tornadus-t should be banned because it has no counters, lol then tell me a counter for that Salamence. Seriously if you find one thing that can counter it then ill vote tornadus uber.

Tornadus-t DOES have reliable counters, no one is saying that it is uncounterable. What people are saying is that it has a very low number of counters, as well as few checks. While yeah, spdef rachi is a solid counter, its essentially the only one that will never lose to tornadus-t, and a good rain team will have something that can easily set up on rachi, such as its own sub cm version. Spdef rotom-w is 3hko'd by hurricane after rocks, so its hardly a reliable switch in. Those two are really the only two pokemon that are viable in ou without the niche created as a tornadus-t check. Now this would be fine, but the other pokemon people mentioned don't even do their job as a tornadus-t check. Lanturn, Metagross etc are all hit fairly hard by hurricane (around 30%) and have no reliable recovery. Just hit them with a hurricane + rocks, and they can't switch in again against specs, and a LO hurricane + u-turn puts them in the same place.

Tornadus-t hits like a truck with stab base 120 power attacks off of 110 spatk, but its also the fastest commonly used pokemon, as ala said earlier. Not only can scarfers not switch in, tornadus can easily switch out after a kill, gaining 33% without rocks, or even gaining 8% with rocks down. Just a simple tentacruel paired with nadus can switch into most common scarfers, and spin away rocks, while also spreading toxic to tornadus' checks, such as rotom and zapdos, making them completely unable to check tornadus.

Also, chansey fully counters that salamence, so does spdef hippo, rachi in rain etc.

 

[RaikouLover]

I just spent a few games using this thing and this thing is just as powerful as venusaur in sun and just as powerful as stoutland/sandslash in sand. This isnt an uber pokemon. If you have problems with it then maybe we should test rain because honestly it is a liability outside of rain.

It is such a liability outside of rain we (me and my buddy, top 5 on the ladder) switched to Choice Specs about a month ago. Choice Specs allows Hurricane and Air Slash. Air Slash is much more serviceable outside of rain and actually pretty cool. However, no one is here bitching about Choice Specs Air Slash for obvious reasons.

We also noticed that it is really risky to switch Tornadus-T into anything offensive and usually just use it as a cool revenge killer. It's usually not worth risking switching it in to Earthquakes / Grass moves because normally they are paired with HP Ice, Stone Edge, Ice Shard / Icicle Crash, Low Sweeps, etc. It is actually isn't easy to get this thing in (unlike Genesect) and unless you use Specs w/ Air Slash (no longer the LO set everyone bitches about), you can't even think to bring this guy in before rain is up.

Tornadus-t DOES have reliable counters, no one is saying that it is uncounterable. What people are saying is that it has a very low number of counters, as well as few checks. While yeah, spdef rachi is a solid counter, its essentially the only one that will never lose to tornadus-t, and a good rain team will have something that can easily set up on rachi, such as its own sub cm version. Spdef rotom-w is 3hko'd by hurricane after rocks, so its hardly a reliable switch in.

This is the argument people are using that just blows my top. Rotom-W is 3HKOed by Hurricane and OHKOs back, thus making it a counter. Yet that isn't good enough? I wish I had something that could switch into LO Terrakion 3 times without having to resort to UU pokemon... Furthermore, what follows Tornadus-T is not up for discussion nor is it anyone elses problem. Pairing Tornadus-T with something that can set up its counters is simply good synergy.. LOL

 

[RabidChipmunk]

Just had a game where my tornadus-t was thunder waved by a xatu. It is stoppable and not really overpowering.

Well that's not an argument, that's your own damn fault. Life Orb Hurricane is a guaranteed OHKO with SR on standard OU Xatu (and a 50% chance without), so either you got a poor damage role or you carelessly switched Tornadus-T into it (and seriously, it's not like it could've been surprising to you; when does Xatu not carry T-Wave?). I'm not picking a side with this post, but your incompetence doesn't make Tornadus-T unbroken.

 

[Curtains]

Tornadus-t DOES have reliable counters, no one is saying that it is uncounterable. What people are saying is that it has a very low number of counters, as well as few checks. While yeah, spdef rachi is a solid counter, its essentially the only one that will never lose to tornadus-t, and a good rain team will have something that can easily set up on rachi, such as its own sub cm version. Spdef rotom-w is 3hko'd by hurricane after rocks, so its hardly a reliable switch in. Those two are really the only two pokemon that are viable in ou without the niche created as a tornadus-t check. Now this would be fine, but the other pokemon people mentioned don't even do their job as a tornadus-t check. Lanturn, Metagross etc are all hit fairly hard by hurricane (around 30%) and have no reliable recovery. Just hit them with a hurricane + rocks, and they can't switch in again against specs, and a LO hurricane + u-turn puts them in the same place.

Tornadus-t hits like a truck with stab base 120 power attacks off of 110 spatk, but its also the fastest commonly used pokemon, as ala said earlier. Not only can scarfers not switch in, tornadus can easily switch out after a kill, gaining 33% without rocks, or even gaining 8% with rocks down. Just a simple tentacruel paired with nadus can switch into most common scarfers, and spin away rocks, while also spreading toxic to tornadus' checks, such as rotom and zapdos, making them completely unable to check tornadus.

Also, chansey fully counters that salamence, so does spdef hippo, rachi in rain etc.

you know what else hits like a truck? banded terrakion... If you don't have jellicent or gliscor you are screwed. Not to mention is could go for its other move called stone edge with high critical hits. Torn-t isnt broken because compared to other pokemon it hits like a whimp. Also it is useless outside rain. No one in this thread besides myself and a few people have even mentioned that fact.

 

[dragonuser]

It is such a liability outside of rain we (me and my buddy, top 5 on the ladder) switched to Choice Specs about a month ago. Choice Specs allows Hurricane and Air Slash. Air Slash is much more serviceable outside of rain and actually pretty cool. However, no one is here bitching about Choice Specs Air Slash for obvious reasons.

We also noticed that it is really risky to switch Tornadus-T into anything offensive and usually just use it as a cool revenge killer. It's usually not worth risking switching it in to Earthquakes / Grass moves because normally they are paired with HP Ice, Stone Edge, Ice Shard / Icicle Crash, Low Sweeps, etc. It is actually isn't easy to get this thing in (unlike Genesect) and unless you use Specs w/ Air Slash (no longer the LO set everyone bitches about), you can't even think to bring this guy in before rain is up.

How is that true at all? Sure you can't spam guaranteed Hurricanes but you can easily use his other coverage moves. Don't forget that this thing is blazing fast and has U-Turn, making it an effective scouter. Your opponent has Ferrothorn in and you don't have rain up? Focus Blast it, or even Heat Wave if you have that. Also don't forget that Hurricane has 70 acc meaning it is still semi usable out of rain. Not to mention it can set rain on its own with Rain Dance. This thing can do more than just spam Hurricane's, and albeit these other tasks aren't as devastating, they are a part of what makes this guy so deadly.

 

[Neliel]

Tornadus-t DOES have reliable counters, no one is saying that it is uncounterable. Ok so if its counterable its ou What people are saying is that it has a very low number of counters, as well as few checks. While yeah, spdef rachi is a solid counter, its essentially the only one that will never lose to tornadus-t, and a good rain team will have something that can easily set up on rachi, This argument is invalid, so i suppose that every dragon is uber because magnezone can trap steels? such as its own sub cm version. An another gay pokemon Spdef rotom-w is 3hko'd by hurricane after rocks, so its hardly a reliable switch in. Honestly i dont know what is a reliable switch in for torna then, it needs 3 hits to ko it so its not good? do you need 10 switch ins to say that its a good check? Those two are really the only two pokemon that are viable in ou without the niche created as a tornadus-t check. Now this would be fine, but the other pokemon people mentioned don't even do their job as a tornadus-t check. Lanturn, Metagross etc are all hit fairly hard by hurricane (around 30%) and have no reliable recovery. Yeah i know i would never use any of the pokemon you mentioned Just hit them with a hurricane + rocks, and they can't switch in again against specs, and a LO hurricane + u-turn puts them in the same place.

Tornadus-t hits like a truck with stab base 120 power attacks off of 110 spatk, but its also the fastest commonly used pokemon, as ala said earlier. Honestly tornadus-t is not that powerfull as it seems, 110 spatk is not that high, maybe its the flying type that makes it hard to deal with it Not only can scarfers not switch in, tornadus can easily switch out after a kill, gaining 33% without rocks, or even gaining 8% with rocks down. Just a simple tentacruel paired with nadus can switch into most common scarfers, and spin away rocks, while also spreading toxic to tornadus' checks, such as rotom and zapdos, making them completely unable to check tornadus. Then again we cant speak about supporting pokemon, otherwhise any dragon is uber

Also, chansey fully counters that salamence, so does spdef hippo, rachi in rain etc.well sp def hippo cant and rachi is fucked if there isnt rain up, anyway who cares about this.

 

[RaikouLover]

How is that true at all? Sure you can't spam guaranteed Hurricanes but you can easily use his other coverage moves. Don't forget that this thing is blazing fast and has U-Turn, making it an effective scouter. Your opponent has Ferrothorn in and you don't have rain up? Focus Blast it, or even Heat Wave if you have that. Also don't forget that Hurricane has 70 acc meaning it is still semi usable out of rain. Not to mention it can set rain on its own with Rain Dance. This thing can do more than just spam Hurricane's, and albeit these other tasks aren't as devastating, they are a part of what makes this guy so deadly.

I don't know anyone spamming Focus Blast, do you? Everyone in their mother bitches about it's accuracy. Hurricane outside of rain is Thunder and Focus Blast essentially.

 

[GaryTheGengar]

Dragons have more checks than steels, lol. Also, a dragon has to use outrage to have any real power, allowing it to be easily picked off by your team's scarfer. A counter needs to be able to switch in comfortably throughout the course of the match, not one time. Tornadus comes in, uses hurricane once, you switch out to take the uninvested volt switch, and now everytime tornadus comes in, you have to sac something, or your 'counter' is 2hko'd.

 

[dragonuser]

Ok make it Superpower then, nevertheless my main argument is that Tornadus-T isn't useless out of rain. Sure it is neutered, but it can still serve a valuable role which makes dealing with it so much harder. Taking away rain vs a Tornadus-T isn't the "gg" you are making it out to be, and taking it away can be harder than you think as I am seeing more and more Rain Dance Tornadus-T's now. Tornadus-T is a fairly versatile Pokemon that is incredibly fast, has a good movepool, and great ability. Its bulk and power is nothing to shrug at either.

 

[Rayland]

@Neliel You are ignoring the fact that Tornadus-T can switch out and regain its health. Also, supporting Pokemon do matter in this discussion. When we discussed Genesect, Dugtrio was brought up often, as this combination was destroying everything in the metagame. Ferrothorn, Dugtrio, and Tentacruel are common supporters of Tornadus-T. They easily handle all of its counters.

Also, why is everyone ignoring the Acrobat set that Tornadus-T has? It isn't useless outside of rain and can still hit pretty hard.

 

[Neliel]

Dragons have more checks than steels, lol. Also, a dragon has to use outrage to have any real power, allowing it to be easily picked off by your team's scarfer. A counter needs to be able to switch in comfortably throughout the course of the match, not one time. Tornadus comes in, uses hurricane once, you switch out to take the uninvested volt switch, and now everytime tornadus comes in, you have to sac something, or your 'counter' is 2hko'd.

Wait what? dragons have more check than steels? hum maybe "dragon" is too generic. The argument of Dragons need to lock into outrage is invalid, because in the meanwhile you have already lost a pokemon so you are talking about revenge killing, something that you can easily do with torna-t as well.

 

[Curtains]

@Neliel You are ignoring the fact that Tornadus-T can switch out and regain its health. Also, supporting Pokemon do matter in this discussion. When we discussed Genesect, Dugtrio was brought up often, as this combination was destroying everything in the metagame. Ferrothorn, Dugtrio, and Tentacruel are common supporters of Tornadus-T. They easily handle all of its coounters.

You forget that the person playing also has supporting pokemon from their team. Theorymon shouldnt be about YOUR team and trying to stop YOUR team. I have a team that I can use to and switch in and out of tornadus' "supporters"

 

[RaikouLover]

Ok make it Superpower then, nevertheless my main argument is that Tornadus-T isn't useless out of rain. Sure it is neutered, but it can still serve a valuable role which makes dealing with it so much harder. Taking away rain vs a Tornadus-T isn't the "gg" you are making it out to be, and taking it away can be harder than you think as I am seeing more and more Rain Dance Tornadus-T's now. Tornadus-T is a fairly versatile Pokemon that is incredibly fast, has a good movepool, and great ability. Its bulk and power is nothing to shrug at either.

Well, no it is not gg, but it is certainly not Uber. You have to prove to us what Tornadus-T does that makes it uber. Saying "but it's not completely useless outside of rain" just weakens the argument. The fact that it can't do what it does that makes you bitch without the support of a weather condition just eliminates it from "sweeping a large amount of the metagame with very little support." LOL. How is it doing that again?

 

[Neliel]

@Neliel You are ignoring the fact that Tornadus-T can switch out and regain its health. Also, supporting Pokemon do matter in this discussion. When we discussed Genesect, Dugtrio was brought up often, as this combination was destroying everything in the metagame. Ferrothorn, Dugtrio, and Tentacruel are common supporters of Tornadus-T. They easily handle all of its counters.

Also, why is everyone ignoring the Acrobat set that Tornadus-T has? It isn't useless outside of rain and can still hit pretty hard.

Supporting pokemon does not matter because then EVERY THING in ou its uber, its like saying anything that has outrage is uber because gothitelle and magnezone exists.

 

[doublenikesocks]

I'd like to point out that if we decided to ban these two, we'd basically be rolling back BW2 and going back to the old BW metagame. We can't just ban everything new because we like the old meta more.

As for Tornadus-T being broken, I am on the edge. It has a few reliable counters in Jirachi, Skarmory, and Zapdos. I don't list Spd Rotom-W because it lacks recovery. (Pain Split lol) It has offensive checks in Weavile and Jolteon. Other checks include Rotom-W, Bronzong, Terrakion, and the blobs (Chansey.) A lot of these Pokemon are Taunt bait, but many can dish out damage back to Tornadus. I don't believe that because a Pokemon can have a great teammate, it is broken.

Keldeo is totally not broken. It has hard counters: Jellicent, Lati@s, and Celebi. I am probably forgetting some mons but whatever. It has offensive checks in Tornadus-T, and a lot of others. Like Tornadus-T, a lot of people consider it broken because it has a good teammate in Tyranitar. EDIT: Starmie

 

[GaryTheGengar]

Wait what? dragons have more check than steels? hum maybe "dragon" is too generic. The argument of Dragons need to lock into outrage is invalid, because in the meanwhile you have already lost a pokemon so you are talking about revenge killing, something that you can easily do with torna-t as well.

Maybe you should specify a dragon, as your vague description makes it impossible to tell what you're talking about. You can switch in on the DD, and ohko with a scarfer, and worst case you're forced to tank an unboosted outrage. My point about outrage was that you're going to get one kill, max, while tornadus can keep switching out of its revenge killers and picking off your pokemon one by one.

 

[dragonuser]

Well, no it is not gg, but it is certainly not Uber. You have to prove to us what Tornadus-T does that makes it uber. Saying "but it's not completely useless outside of rain" just weakens the argument. The fact that it can't do what it does that makes you bitch without the support of a weather condition just eliminates it from "sweeping a large amount of the metagame with very little support." LOL. How is it doing that again?

Yes with very little support (either a Politoed or its own Rain Dance) it can sweep an incredible amount of the metagame. It is faster than nearly the entire unboosted metagame and like 4 (maybe 1-2 more?) Pokemon can really stand up to its attacks. I don't see how it doesn't sweep a large amount of the metagame as it naturally outspeeds like 99% of it and only like 5% of it can withstand its attacks.

 

[Rayland]

You forget that the person playing also has supporting pokemon from their team. Theorymon shouldnt be about YOUR team and trying to stop YOUR team. I have a team that I can use to and switch in and out of tornadus' "supporters"

Don't be vague. I have listed several supporting pokemon for Tornadus-T that helps it get around its counters. Name some supporting Pokemon for the counters of Tornadus-T.

 

[Neliel]

Maybe you should specify a dragon, as your vague description makes it impossible to tell what you're talking about. You can switch in on the DD, and ohko with a scarfer, and worst case you're forced to tank an unboosted outrage. My point about outrage was that you're going to get one kill, max, while tornadus can keep switching out of its revenge killers and picking off your pokemon one by one.

Its fine but you are missing one point, while (for example) kyurem has ZERO switch in, meaning that you can lose a pokemon if you mispredict/dont know what set it has/ ect. tornadus still has a few things that can switch out on it and never dies no matter what. Of course dragons locked into outrage are easier to revenge kill, but in the meanwhile you have lost a pokemon.

 

[RaikouLover]

Yes with very little support (either a Politoed or its own Rain Dance) it can sweep an incredible amount of the metagame. It is faster than nearly the entire unboosted metagame and like 4 (maybe 1-2 more?) Pokemon can really stand up to its attacks. I don't see how it doesn't sweep a large amount of the metagame as it naturally outspeeds like 99% of it and only like 5% of it can withstand its attacks.

Politoed qualifies as major support sir. You have to keep the weather up. Without Poli, Tornadus-T can't do his job. Tornadus-T with the Life Orb set also requires quite a bit of residual damage. Bulkier things like Garchomp actually aren't OHKOed by LO Hurricane and can simply OHKO you in return.

Little support was Speed Boost Blaziken. It needed not a damn thing to steamroll anything in OU. Little support was Darkrai and Skymin. They didn't give a damn what weather or what you did.. they were going to tip the battle way in your favor. Little support was Thundurus-T, who also didn't care about weather and could run several effective sweeping sets and even piss people off with Prankster support moves.

The support characterstic was shit like DP Wob. He could come in and remove any wall you wanted 100% of the time (and you couldn't switch out) and pave the way for any sweeper you desire.

 

[mode.9800]

When it comes to Tornadus T the thing that really annoys the hell out of me is the confusion chance combined with regenerator and u-turn. It can be very difficult when that confusion kicks in and since Torndus just heals off when it u-turns.

That said i don't think that it is an Uber pokemon: ive never looked at an opponents team and been scared by the presence of it and it really needs support in order for it to work properly.
The same really applies to Keledo, yes Specs Hydro pump hurts but that is true of pretty much all rain boosted hydro pumps. given support it can cause a major pain there are plenty of thing that can revenge kill it

 

[TCTphantom]

Also, just look at the set on the signature of raikoulover; you are saying that tornadus-t should be banned because it has no counters, lol then tell me a counter for that Salamence. Seriously if you find one thing that can counter it then ill vote tornadus uber.

Meloetta. Takes little from Dm with dat Spdef, and takes BB and Flame like a boos.

On Tort T, ban it. It outspeeds the entire tier, forcing teams to run a scarfer to check it (mine is Scarf Keldeo), it cant be walled, and it can work around its counters. Hell, I run Superpower and HP Ground to make sure Raichi and Tran think twice befor coming in.

On Keldeo, why? Lati@s, Tenta, Jelli, Celebii, all take it out easily, Water Absorbers and Dry Skinners take its crux. Keldeo is amazing, but its no Genesect, no Torn T, no Terrakion, No Raichi.

I just hope eventually Raichi and Rain leave...

 

[dragonuser]

Yes Politoed is a lot of support but the fact that it can maintain its own weather and the fact that it can hit all other weather starters Super Effectively/very hard (ninetales) needs to be taken into consideration. And its not only the little support that are making people clamor about it being uber, it also has decent bulk and Regenerator. This pretty much makes it hazards immune, and if hazards aren't down it gives it a form of recovery.