np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[Deluks917]

Please note Zapdos does not even work as a check unless it has at least 252 hp and about 128 Special Def EV's. Otherwise it is likely to get 2hko'd after SR. Please don't assume no SR. If we got to assume no SR than dragonite would easily be uber. Even if you manage to keep SR off the field you always pay a huge cost to do so.

 

[gamerno1]

My overall feeling about the suspects:

Tornadus-T

So torn-t only has 2 counters... that's still two more than some pokes in OU (hydreigon comes to mind).

It can switch out of revenge kills? So can every other poke unless its a trapper (tell me what traps hydreigon).

It can outlast it's counters? So can dozens of others (ever heard the term "late game sweeper"?).

I just don't see anything that deserves a ban, it doesn't sweep teams by itself, or guarantee a teammate the same. It doesn't destroy walls, or cripple revenge killers, and it isn't uncounterable.

In addition to its counters there are plenty of checks with scarfers threatening revenge kills, and the huge number of bulky tanks that can take a hit and either KO back or cripple with para or something similar.

Keldeo
Many immediately say keldeo is just a special terrakion, but does CC get boosted by the most common weather? Does stone edge hit the opponents opposite defence?

I agree that keldeo isn't broken yet still I wonder about how this is so obvious to everyone whilst torn is debated to death and may still ultimately get banned.

Last ironic tidbit: if torn-t is banned but keldeo isn't (looking depressingly likely at this point) keldeo will lose one it's best checks and lose a competitor as a rain abuser, how long before keldeo ends up belatedly banned anyway?

 

[Rewer]

the main thing about tornadus is the fact he can outspeed every non-scarfer on the game, switch any time he wants pretty much, and packing a strong power at the same time. you cant just play the little damage game against him because he heals every damage he gets after switching in so you have to pack specific counters and try to stay up the whole game while he's still up, and still having a 15% chance of not letting the counter heal himself and possibly beating it

 

[Gehenna]

My overall feeling about the suspects:

So torn-t only has 2 counters... that's still two more than some pokes in OU (hydreigon comes to mind).

Do you want to know why Tornadus is superior to Hydreigon (and why Hydreigon didn't jump straight to Ubers)? Hydreigon is slow(ish). Hydreigon doesn't have Regenerator and is thus worn down by status, sand, and rocks.

It can switch out of revenge kills? So can every other poke unless its a trapper (tell me what traps hydreigon).

But can "every other poke" do so while taking virtually nothing from the aformentioned hazards, weather, and status? Do the others have a base 121 U-turn, eliminating prediction?

It can outlast it's counters? So can dozens of others (ever heard the term "late game sweeper"?).

Feel I already covered this.

I just don't see anything that deserves a ban, it doesn't sweep teams by itself, or guarantee a teammate the same. It doesn't destroy walls, or cripple revenge killers,

What the hell? Of course it does.

and it isn't uncounterable.

Neither is Excadrill.

 

[MMII]

The two are pretty similar as Hurricane has a 30% to confuse while confusion has a 50% chance to hit yourself. That's a 15% chance to be screwed over by Hurricane hax before on your first attempt to attack. Things get even more sick when you try to look a bit into the long term when considering situations where you are confused on the first hit but don't hit yourself right off the bat. Sure it isn't passive like SV, but the benefit of that was so Chomp could hax while spamming Sub or SD to set up a sweep. Tornadus doesn't need set up to go Hurricane spamming and that is the attack he tends to use most of the time. (and U-Turn but then you got a counter in sooo)

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Discuss Keldeo or something gdi

Honestly, at this point, I think banning Keldeo would make about as much sense as banning Starmie. As offensive water-types, they both have their strengths and their weaknesses. While Starmie struggles against bulky Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, it's faster and has access to Rapid Spin and Recover.

Keldeo has a better typing and 129 Base Special attack, but it's still difficult for it to break through many of the same types of Pokes that Starmie has issues with, like Specially Bulky Celebi. At this point, I think it would be fair to say that it is great, but not broken, just like Starmie.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Umm, gamerno1, I hate to break it to you but Tornadus-T kind of does sweep teams by itself. Also, you just can't compare Tornadus-T to Hydreigon because Tornadus-T is faster than every non-Jolteon Pokemon in OU, while Hydreigon is slower than a lot of stuff. You have to use your brain when using Hydreigon. You don't need any brain to use Tornadus-T. As for late-game sweepers, does Lucario have Regenerator and 121 base Speed, for example? Not really. Also, there are plenty of Pokemon that can revenge kill Lucario even without Choice Scarf, while Lucario's checks are much more likely to outlive it since Lucario is so frail. Late-game sweepers also can't come in multiple times in the match anywhere near as well as Tornadus-T can.

 

[Vemane]

I feel like those arguing that Tornadus doesn't sweep are referring to the fact that it is often a hit and run attacker.

But whether it kills all of the pokes at once or gets a kill every few turns, it is still decimating the opposing team

And it usually does "sweep" the last few pokes once any scarfers are gone

 

[False Sense]

In response to gamerno1, there is a significant difference between Hydreigon and Tornadus-T. True, Hydreigon has no counters. But it is rather easy to take down once you do switch something in, due to it being slow and having that unfortunate dark type, making it vulnerable to fighting attacks and U-turn. (Now what do we know is both fast and has U turn?

Tornadus-T is just so fast that its difficult to handle outside of it's few counters. Plus, it can easily u-turn right out of a situation with not only no drawbacks, but with benefits as well. Hydreigon can be taken down by anything faster than it that can hit it hard enough. (Terrakion, Keldeo, Tornadus-T, etc.)

 

[Ningildo]

My overall feeling about the suspects:

Tornadus-T

So torn-t only has 2 counters... that's still two more than some pokes in OU (hydreigon comes to mind).

It can switch out of revenge kills? So can every other poke unless its a trapper (tell me what traps hydreigon).

It can outlast it's counters? So can dozens of others (ever heard the term "late game sweeper"?).

I just don't see anything that deserves a ban, it doesn't sweep teams by itself, or guarantee a teammate the same. It doesn't destroy walls, or cripple revenge killers, and it isn't uncounterable.

In addition to its counters there are plenty of checks with scarfers threatening revenge kills, and the huge number of bulky tanks that can take a hit and either KO back or cripple with para or something similar.

Keldeo
Many immediately say keldeo is just a special terrakion, but does CC get boosted by the most common weather? Does stone edge hit the opponents opposite defence?

I agree that keldeo isn't broken yet still I wonder about how this is so obvious to everyone whilst torn is debated to death and may still ultimately get banned.

Last ironic tidbit: if torn-t is banned but keldeo isn't (looking depressingly likely at this point) keldeo will lose one it's best checks and lose a competitor as a rain abuser, how long before keldeo ends up belatedly banned anyway?

Um, which pokemon can get in, take a kill and switch out relatively healthy? And keep it up in the entire game and not be worn down by hazards? Have counters trapped AND worn down easily (With it doing the wearing down on it's own)?
Name another mon that does this and I'll feel more inclined to listen to you regarding Tornadus-T.

On the topic of Keldeo, I'm a bit on the fence. Yes, it has many more counters that are actually pretty common and viable to use and can be worn down and lacks U-turn for momentum and trapping purposes. But it doesn't help that nearly all counters are trapped by Tyranitar and that this core is stopped by a select few (among of which Tornadus-T) only.
However, Tornadus-I can do the same unless Keldeo is Scarfed (But the Therian would also be screwed so w/e), as can Starmie given Tyranitar has been weakened a little. Leaning towards no ban for this reason, but I might be swayed provided Keldeo actually gets a bit more.
EDIT:Ninja'd sorta by Shokwav and others.

 

[Tressed]

Keldeo really doesn't warrant a ban. It's powerful, fast, and has good typing, but they don't make it worth banning, as none of those are over the top. 108 Speed is good, but it doesn't shift the whole metagame, seeing as if you weren't able to beat that benchmark, Terrakion would really ruin your day. Its power is awesome, but it isn't anything really new to the tier (Heatran, Alakazam). Typing is powerful, but leaves it open both offensively (Lati@s, Jellicent, Celebi) and defensively (Lati@s again, Torn-T). Altogether these stats make for a powerful force, but it isn't so insanely powerful that most teams can't manage, so I think a ban on Keldeo wouldn't be justified.

 

[yee]

I personally tossed Keldeo into a BW1 team for some testing before it officially came out to get a headstart and it was just, flat broken. It was so disgusting all BW2 things not introduced yet under rain I was stunned at how mild it was in BW2. I blame the fact that BW2 somehow became even faster which has led to nobody using anything but Scarf, regardless of the reason I fully expect it to get nerfed in some way if it ever becomes "fast again" which may happen with the Tornadus ban. I'm not saying ban it now because it will be broken later, but I'd like to hear some speculation on what it will be like because some of you are selling Keldeo short IMO.

Tl;Dr:

Last ironic tidbit: if torn-t is banned but keldeo isn't (which is just about imminent) keldeo will lose one it's best checks and lose a competitor as a rain abuser, how long before keldeo ends up belatedly banned anyway?

 

[Myzozoa]

I think it's funny that most posts in this thread are about Torn-t, which many people have decided is broken. When I decided to get reqs this time, I used a team that was not Deo-D spam, just to make sure my perspective was completely valid (I used Sand+Gothi+Landorus, if you're wondering and I started off with straight 27 wins). My past experiences and vindications were confirmed again, Torn-t is not horribly overpowering and Specs Keldeo is by far the most threatening pokemon in the metagame (terrakion is more threatening on paper, but I find most teams can handle it without accounting for it in team construction), and the scarf set is the best revenge killer/late game sweeper, it's even better than Salamence because it resists water passably, pursuit, and many priority moves combined with boosted stab from rain. I will be voting to ban Keldeo, but I probably won't be voting to ban Torn-t at this time.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Well, I've got reqs (for the first time ever! :D gonna make sure I participate more in Suspect tests from now on, as I think it really made me a better battler and gave me a better view of the metagame), and I must admit, my opinion on the suspects may have changed. I used both Life Orb and Specs Tornadus-T on my team, together with Scarf Keldeo, and the ease with which the two of them worked together was quite astounding. I'm gonna have to really think about whether or not these guys are Uber or not, but I'll be posting my final thoughts here soon. Like Myzoza, I'm beginning to think that perhaps it's not the bird that's broken, but the beast...

 

[alexwolf]

tl;tr: Tornadus-T is banned and is overcentralizing the metagame. IT MADE ZAPDOS VIABLE FOR FUCKS SAKE! We're discussing how Zapdos is now a viable means in the metagame because if can counter Torn-T. This is the same as if Excadrill made Golurk viable in OU because of its mere existance. Please ban Torn-T imo.

Zapdos was already viable because Torn-I existed. And what is the relevance of Golurk with Excadrill?

 

[BKC]

Zapdos wasn't nearly as viable before Tornadus-T arrived because Torn-I is much easier to deal with via conventional methods (Stealth Rock & Scarf Tyranitar are two of the best options that immediately spring to mind, both of which are near useless vs. the Therian).

Also, I don't think Shurtugal is saying that Excadrill suddenly made Golurk viable or whatever, but was rather using it as an example as to how broken Pokemon make other Pokemon who are usually outclassed suddenly viable; I'm pretty sure that it wasn't meant to be taken literally as "Golurk was only good because it countered Excadrill" or whatever...for the love of Christ, I hope people don't start going "but Golurk doesn't counter Excadrill so your argument is invalid!!!" instead of focusing on the actual argument, which seems to be the norm in this thread.

 

[Asek]

Honestly, at this point, I think banning Keldeo would make about as much sense as banning Starmie. As offensive water-types, they both have their strengths and their weaknesses. While Starmie struggles against bulky Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, it's faster and has access to Rapid Spin and Recover.

Keldeo has a better typing and 129 Base Special attack, but it's still difficult for it to break through many of the same types of Pokes that Starmie has issues with, like Specially Bulky Celebi. At this point, I think it would be fair to say that it is great, but not broken, just like Starmie.

I posted this a while back, but the problem with this is that pretty much every keldeo check is beaten back with proper prediction. One of the best answers in many peoples eyes being 252/0 Latias is cleanly 2HKO'd by HP [GHOST] after SR and while recover can keep you alive, once the opponent has switched in their answer to latias you would have taken more damage then you recovered, and lets just say if the latias answer was tyranitar then you're done for. This can be said for pretty much every keldeo "counter" (SpD jellicent, SpD Celebi etc), I can't be bothered at this hour to go back and get them but I listed quite a few of the common switch ins that were beaten easily by the appropriate move. I'm not trying to make out that the standard player will have insane prediction and be able to smash all your switch ins, but if you're facing a skilled player who can use specs keldeo well, then you're in for a rough time.

I tbh find Tyranitar + Keldeo a lot more deadly then this Dugtrio + Tornadus thing people keep bringing up in this thread, let us not forget that keldeo is genuinly useful out of rain as well as being a lot harder to revenge kill imo than Tornadus (resisting prio moves is cool). Also the starmie comparison doesn't really make sense, the Significant rise in Special Attack and the secondary STAB to smash past blissey / chansey make keldeo far superior in offensive regards besides the small speed loss, which starmie uses to outspeed the base 108's themselves as well as torn-I ( I did see a few of these after kidogo's RMT). Starmie's usual role is to rapid spin, keldeo's is to smash clean through teams with brute force. I've been using specs starmie myself recently due to the utility of rapid spin with brute force, but if I didn't need that sort of support I would of jumped straight onto keldeo for that role

I'm probably all over the place here I don't mind, Specs Keldeo is just amazing why does keldeo get such low usage :'(
EDIT: some of those do have a high chance to live after the 2 attacks + SR but with the slightest bit of prior damage the fight is lost, and some just need to get unlucky damage rolls. Unless of course we want to bring modest keldeo into the discussion / the potential of a team mate trapping with pursuit, which everyone in this thread seems to think means its broken (counters easily trapped, must be broken xD)

Calc evidence

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 170-200 (42.07 - 49.5%) -- 35.55% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 164-194 (40.59 - 48.01%) -- 10.94% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
weak chances ik, but if the keldeo user is using the rare modest variant chances are much higher

 

[alexwolf]

While yeah Specs Keldeo is very threatening SpD Celebi, max HP Toxicroak, and SpD Amoonguss all shut it down easily. It is important to note that all of those threats don't mind a BandTar partner at all, as Celebi has Baton Pass, and the other two can easily stomach a Pursuit. Even if Keldeo uses Hidden Power Ghost/Ice on the switch, Celebi isn't 2HKOed by it and can simply Recover off the damage as Keldeo switches out, Amoonguss can just switch out on everything to take the locked HP having lost only 20% net damage (it's not hard at all to get Amoonguss in again and switch out to heal the 20%, before Keldeo comes in again), and Toxicroak can simply use Drain Punch on whatever comes in and heal back to full health (in two turns Toxicroak will have healed 18.75% + 18.75% + ~10% from Drain Punch, which is exactly the amount of damage that Keldeo did with Hidden Power).

Zapdos wasn't nearly as viable before Tornadus-T arrived because Torn-I is much easier to deal with via conventional methods (Stealth Rock & Scarf Tyranitar are two of the best options that immediately spring to mind, both of which are near useless vs. the Therian).

Also, I don't think Shurtugal is saying that Excadrill suddenly made Golurk viable or whatever, but was rather using it as an example as to how broken Pokemon make other Pokemon who are usually outclassed suddenly viable; I'm pretty sure that it wasn't meant to be taken literally as "Golurk was only good because it countered Excadrill" or whatever...for the love of Christ, I hope people don't start going "but Golurk doesn't counter Excadrill so your argument is invalid!!!" instead of focusing on the actual argument, which seems to be the norm in this thread.

I get that it was an example but i ask again what does Golurk have to do with Excadrill? Maybe he messed up and meant that Terrakion made Golurk more popular idk. And yeah Zapdos is more viable than ever in 5th now that Torn-T is present, but it has always had a niche in OU, it didn't come to light from zero (like Gastrodon for example).

EDIT: And what Shurtugal said too. Many threatening Pokemon in OU don't have counters but are not broken such as Hydreigon, Kyurem-B, and even CB Terrakion (defensive Gliscor walls it but seeing as nobody except me uses the right spread i can count it too :D)

 

[Shurtugal]

Isn't every Pokemon counter's defeated with proper prediction?

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

While yeah Specs Keldeo is very threatening SpD Celebi, max HP Toxicroak, and SpD Amoonguss all shut it down easily. It is important to note that all of those threats don't mind a BandTar partner at all, as Celebi has Baton Pass, and the other two can easily stomach a Pursuit. Even if Keldeo uses Hidden Power Ghost/Ice on the switch, Celebi isn't 2HKOed by it and can simply Recover off the damage as Keldeo switches out, Amoonguss can just switch out on everything to take the locked HP having lost only 20% net damage (it's not hard at all to get Amoonguss in again and switch out to heal the 20%, before Keldeo comes in again), and Toxicroak can simply use Drain Punch on whatever comes in and heal back to full health (in two turns Toxicroak will have healed 18.75% + 18.75% + ~10% from Drain Punch, which is exactly the amount of damage that Keldeo did with Hidden Power).

Try to Baton Pass a Perish Song, and you will be put on a hard time. So, Baton Pass only works well if you are using Thunder Wave. I sincerely prefer Perish Song since it deters things like Sheer Force Landorus.

As for Amoongus, it's 2HKOed by both Crunch and Stone Edge. The latter can even OHKO with a little of prior damage.

As for Toxicroak, yeah, it unfortunately defeats Tyranitar, so it's a counter to the combination of Keldeo + Tyranitar. However, this is simply to solve with a Ground- or Psychic-type partner like Hippowdon, Landorus, Celebi, or Lati@s.

 

[Deluks917]

Jellicent badly shuts down specs keldeo in practice. Even if keldeo catches jellicent once with hp ghost this doesn't let him get through. As long as jellicent has 13% (assume SR) he can switch in on keldeo's pump/sword or come in after keldeo kills something to stop the sweep and recover.

In theory keldeo might eventually be able to get through but in practice you don't have enough time in BW. Keldeo really needs a trapper partner to beat jellicent.

 

[Shurtugal]

So does Latias and Celebi, but people think that Banded Tyranitar makes it broken, which is a shitty arguement imo because I could just as easily predict the double switch and go into Duggy or SubSalac Terrakion or Double Dance Landy-T or w/e as easily as my opponent can try to trap me. Celebi also gets BP while Jellicent gets WoW, each escaping kills on Pursuit. It's just Latias that gets raped, which is sad since Latias has so much utility.

However, 1v1, Keldeo has so many amazing checks / counters so I don't see the problem.

@Asek

those chances are (a) slim; just like you said, and (b) modest is revenged by everything in the metagame so don't count on it ever being used.

@AlexWolf:

In the Exca meta, Conk and Azu got a bit more of a niche. I guess you could you those two as a good comparison to Zapdos now. :)

 

[Red ONix]

The problem with Keldeo is, that i need Pokes better fit in Rain Teams than in Sand/Sun Teams (Jellicent, Celebi, Amoonguss, Dragonite, Tentacruel all benefit from rain). Im running Jellicent because otherwise Scarfed/Specs Keldeo would wreck my Team up, even sometimes when no rain is up. Furthermore Bulletpunch, Aqua Jet and Ice Schard are resisted by Keldeo while tornadus-T can be damaged at least neutral. And am I wrong or are more Scarfed Gengars out there since Keldeo and tornadus-T became OU? But Scarf Gengar just for 2 Pokes (okay, plus Latios if it isnt Scarfed too)?
I generally think Rain is kinda too strong because it boosts Water Moves, weakens Fire Moves, make Thunder and Hurricane have 100% accuracy and benefits Pokes with Rain Dish (theres nothing like that for Sand). Indeed sun is boosting fire moves while weakening water moves but theres nothing like boosting the accuracy of moves.

 

[Shurtugal]

No, there are more scarf'd gengars so they can beat starmie. same with the sash variant.

As for its counters ~

Jellicent can be used on sand stall, so can Amo, Dragonite can be on any team, Latias can be on any team, Tenta works on hail too, and Scarf Gar is a good partner for Deo-D teams. These counters have utility and are not limited to rain. Celebi can also be used on sand smh.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

No, there are more scarf'd gengars so they can beat starmie. same with the sash variant.

As for its counters ~

Jellicent can be used on sand stall, so can Amo, Dragonite can be on any team, Latias can be on any team, Tenta works on hail too, and Scarf Gar is a good partner for Deo-D teams. These counters have utility and are not limited to rain. Celebi can also be used on sand smh.

Jellicent can be used on sand balance or even some offensive teams that need a check to Rain. As for Celebi, it works well on sand, protecting them from rain. Celebi is even like Keldeo that three of its best counters (Lati@s and Heatran) are all defeated by Tyranitar.

Also, while Sun doesn't have those, it has an ability that doubles speed (read: Chlorophyll. Rain also has this, but Swift Swim is banned with Drizzle (except on Ubers).