Yeah, but with the defense drop, priority rapes them, especially Shellder, who's weak to Mach Punch/Vwave and neutral to Bullet Punch, if anyone uses that.
Shell Break and Evo-stone...
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np: LC - Tiny Dancer (VOTE HERE)
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Yeah, but with the defense drop, priority rapes them, especially Shellder, who's weak to Mach Punch/Vwave and neutral to Bullet Punch, if anyone uses that.
Shell Break and Evo-stone...
Oran Berry Zuruggu is basically just as good as Evo Stone Zuruggu in all but a few cases (stuff like Adamant LO Komatana Brick Break OHKOes Oran but not Evo iirc but c'mon). It is better in SS/ (loses less % per turn due to "higher" HP) anyways so its not like its completely inferior. It actually takes some attacks better than Evo Zuruggu as well. I can figure some of these out if necessary -- I'll probably edit them in later.
I don't see how Evo Stone makes Zuruggu broken. Zuruggu is what would make Zuruggu broken.
I don't see how Evo Stone makes Zuruggu broken. Zuruggu is what would make Zuruggu broken.
Bout time I posted in this thread, I read through it. Reactions so far.
Seems like the popular opinion to me. Burn the witch!
hehe
Zuruggu is the metagame, it's rediculous. Even without evo stone, you need a Croagunk or a scarf Mankey to beat it. The thing is way too good for the metagame.
This. The fact that it does good things for the metagame is unfortunately outweighed by the fact that the bad things it does to the metagame are far worse. I've used this strategy, and dual screens makes evo stone too broken, as +3 Zuruggu DEFINATELY ohkoes the universe (+1 does too!). I wish it could stay, as it makes balance and stall viable methods of play (I only used 1 protect mon on my stall team even!), but it makes setup sweepers way too good. Banning setup moves on evo stone mons would maybe work, but that's getting rediculous. Regrettably needs to be banned.
Ok, now that my quoting fun is over with, why the hell hasn't Murkrow been mentioned ONCE in this thread!??!? How about Meditite? Both of those mons are way too strong, each has beastly strong priority for which to tear shit up, both have great STABs that aren't resisted by a whole lot (umm... Aron?), and Krow even has heat wave to hit Steels with. Both of those needed to be banned.
As far as Missy goes, in this meta it's not broken, but it's incredibly strong, as it has great defenses to abuse evo stone, and 19 speed to go with great mixed offensive stats. Once it loses evo stone, it'll simply use Oran/Life Orb. I really want to see how the metagame shapes before making a call on this though. Gligar, Vulpix, Moguryuu, maybe Tesshiido (the ability to wall a ton of attackers through typing alone and get up spikes while doing so is really good, not broken good though) fall into this group of not currently broken, but keep them on the radar once Zuruggu and Krow and Tite and Evo Stone (assuming my opinion of broken stuff is shared) as they may emerge, however unlikely it seems. That's all I can really think of posting, cut my reasoning to ribbons. Thanks.
Seems like the popular opinion to me. Burn the witch!
hehe
Zuruggu is the metagame, it's rediculous. Even without evo stone, you need a Croagunk or a scarf Mankey to beat it. The thing is way too good for the metagame.
This. The fact that it does good things for the metagame is unfortunately outweighed by the fact that the bad things it does to the metagame are far worse. I've used this strategy, and dual screens makes evo stone too broken, as +3 Zuruggu DEFINATELY ohkoes the universe (+1 does too!). I wish it could stay, as it makes balance and stall viable methods of play (I only used 1 protect mon on my stall team even!), but it makes setup sweepers way too good. Banning setup moves on evo stone mons would maybe work, but that's getting rediculous. Regrettably needs to be banned.
Ok, now that my quoting fun is over with, why the hell hasn't Murkrow been mentioned ONCE in this thread!??!? How about Meditite? Both of those mons are way too strong, each has beastly strong priority for which to tear shit up, both have great STABs that aren't resisted by a whole lot (umm... Aron?), and Krow even has heat wave to hit Steels with. Both of those needed to be banned.
As far as Missy goes, in this meta it's not broken, but it's incredibly strong, as it has great defenses to abuse evo stone, and 19 speed to go with great mixed offensive stats. Once it loses evo stone, it'll simply use Oran/Life Orb. I really want to see how the metagame shapes before making a call on this though. Gligar, Vulpix, Moguryuu, maybe Tesshiido (the ability to wall a ton of attackers through typing alone and get up spikes while doing so is really good, not broken good though) fall into this group of not currently broken, but keep them on the radar once Zuruggu and Krow and Tite and Evo Stone (assuming my opinion of broken stuff is shared) as they may emerge, however unlikely it seems. That's all I can really think of posting, cut my reasoning to ribbons. Thanks.
Everyone is talking about Shell Break Clamperl. I can't blame them, as it's a big issue. But there are other, more minor, problems as well.
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Omanyte reaches 38 Sp Atk after a Shell Break. Purotooga reaches 36 Atk.
That alone isn't broken. But it is on a rain team. Their STABs are boosted, and Swift Swim ensures that even Scarfed pokemon can't revenge them, making priority the only hope.
However, this is an issue, as their base Def stats are 100 and 103, respectively. This means that in the rain, Vaccuum Wave is the one of the only reliable ways of killing them. Should every team run a Croagunk in order to kill these two?
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Sorry, but I'm tired, it's late at night for me and it's hard for me to even speak coherently. I can't really argue my point well at all right now.
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Omanyte reaches 38 Sp Atk after a Shell Break. Purotooga reaches 36 Atk.
That alone isn't broken. But it is on a rain team. Their STABs are boosted, and Swift Swim ensures that even Scarfed pokemon can't revenge them, making priority the only hope.
However, this is an issue, as their base Def stats are 100 and 103, respectively. This means that in the rain, Vaccuum Wave is the one of the only reliable ways of killing them. Should every team run a Croagunk in order to kill these two?
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Sorry, but I'm tired, it's late at night for me and it's hard for me to even speak coherently. I can't really argue my point well at all right now.
Shell Break Shellder is by far the best user. I admit, I forgot about it during my post, but all 4 of them are really good. Need to be considered shortly down the road, just after we finalize the more broken Pokemons (Krow, Zuruggu, Meditie... maybe even before Tite). It's such a good move.
After a Shell Break, Shellder reaches 34 Atk. That isn't necessarily broken.
But with Skill Link, 5 hits coming from that attack will KO just about anything.
It'll be a game of "Kill it before it wipes out your counter"
That's no good.
Shell Break Shellder should run Hydro Pump or Surf / Ice Shard / Rock Blast, or its gonna get raped by priority, just saying.
I thought this was going about the lack of a Drizzle user in LC (Rain Dance?), but since we're on the topic of LC suspects, what about Exeggcute? I run a Harvest Exeggutor with a Lum Berry and Rest on my Trick Room + Sunny Day team, and it's pretty good at stalling, besides that whole 7 weakness thing. Harvest Exeggcute could theoretically heal to full health every time it gets below 50% with an Berry Juice, because of Harvest recycling the berry. That seems pretty cheap, although I'm not sure that it can survive a sucker punch, or any one of its 6 other weaknesses. But hey, if the move leaves you with 5 HP or more, you can heal back to 100% health. I whipped up a quick set despite knowing nothing about Little Cup:
Exeggcute (M) @ Berry Juice Trait: Harvest
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 116 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Sleep Powder
- Hidden Power Fighting/Reflect/Light Screen
This reaches 18 def, 25 HP, and 14 sp att with my EV spread (IDK how do LC EV spreads, I just used pokemon online to get the max possible stats in HP and Def, then put the rest in Sp att). Giga Drain heals you, and that's the only reason I picked it over Energy ball. Psychic is for STAB, and Sleep Powder shuts down something like Zuruggu for a couple turns. You have a couple of options for the fourth move. Hidden Power Fighting is a 2-3HKO on pre evo stone Zuruugu, and that's pretty much the only reason I have it. Although Exeggcute is weak to Crunch, it only does 96% at max, which you can then heal back to full health using berry juice+harvest. You could also run Reflect for even more defense, or light screen to patch up your rather low 11 sp def (at least, it seems low to me).
Note, if Berry Juice isn't a berry, and can't be restored with harvest, that pretty much kills this set. Oran berry could work, although it only heals half as much.
Sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong set, but it seems like it might work.
Exeggcute (M) @ Berry Juice Trait: Harvest
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 116 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Sleep Powder
- Hidden Power Fighting/Reflect/Light Screen
This reaches 18 def, 25 HP, and 14 sp att with my EV spread (IDK how do LC EV spreads, I just used pokemon online to get the max possible stats in HP and Def, then put the rest in Sp att). Giga Drain heals you, and that's the only reason I picked it over Energy ball. Psychic is for STAB, and Sleep Powder shuts down something like Zuruggu for a couple turns. You have a couple of options for the fourth move. Hidden Power Fighting is a 2-3HKO on pre evo stone Zuruugu, and that's pretty much the only reason I have it. Although Exeggcute is weak to Crunch, it only does 96% at max, which you can then heal back to full health using berry juice+harvest. You could also run Reflect for even more defense, or light screen to patch up your rather low 11 sp def (at least, it seems low to me).
Note, if Berry Juice isn't a berry, and can't be restored with harvest, that pretty much kills this set. Oran berry could work, although it only heals half as much.
Sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong set, but it seems like it might work.
Berry Juice is banned, and it isn't a berry either.
When I run harvest Exeggcute, I try to max out its defenses instead of investing some in Atk. Here are the two sets I run:
Exeggcute@Oran Berry
196 HP/236 Sp Def/ 36 Def/ 36 Sp Atk
Calm nature
Substitute
Psychic
Energy Ball
Toxic
Exeggcute@Oran Berry
196 HP/196 Def/ 76 Sp Def/36 Sp Atk
Bold nature
Substitute
Psychic
Energy Ball
Toxic
As you can see, the only difference is the EVs. One gives it 25/15/15 defenses, while the second set gives it 25/18/12 defenses. It's really up to preference.
I always run these sets with Toxic Spikes. Subs protect me from damage while an Oran will bring me back up to good health when I run low. This basically means that I can use an infinite number of Substitutes. Once it gets the first Sub up, it can defeat pretty much anything vulnerable to Toxic Spikes, because nothing can hurt it.
Toxic helps against anything that runs Lum Berry, which I've seen a lot of lately. The other two are mostly filler, but they provide good STAB, so w/e.
However, enemy Toxic Spikes can ruin this, because they drain you even with a Sub up, obviously. That's why it goes well with a Rapid Spinner. Tentacool can absorb Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, lay down Toxic Spikes, and has good synergy with Exeggcute. He makes an excellent partner.
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Anyway, Exeggcute is one of very few pokemon that can successfully stall in LC.
Exeggcute@Oran Berry
196 HP/236 Sp Def/ 36 Def/ 36 Sp Atk
Calm nature
Substitute
Psychic
Energy Ball
Toxic
Exeggcute@Oran Berry
196 HP/196 Def/ 76 Sp Def/36 Sp Atk
Bold nature
Substitute
Psychic
Energy Ball
Toxic
As you can see, the only difference is the EVs. One gives it 25/15/15 defenses, while the second set gives it 25/18/12 defenses. It's really up to preference.
I always run these sets with Toxic Spikes. Subs protect me from damage while an Oran will bring me back up to good health when I run low. This basically means that I can use an infinite number of Substitutes. Once it gets the first Sub up, it can defeat pretty much anything vulnerable to Toxic Spikes, because nothing can hurt it.
Toxic helps against anything that runs Lum Berry, which I've seen a lot of lately. The other two are mostly filler, but they provide good STAB, so w/e.
However, enemy Toxic Spikes can ruin this, because they drain you even with a Sub up, obviously. That's why it goes well with a Rapid Spinner. Tentacool can absorb Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, lay down Toxic Spikes, and has good synergy with Exeggcute. He makes an excellent partner.
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Anyway, Exeggcute is one of very few pokemon that can successfully stall in LC.
Back to Evolution Stone:
I think people are severely underrating the ability to avoid being OHKOed. Sure, Oran gives 10+ HP - sometimes more useful than Evolution Stone, but think about it on offensive Pokemon. If I'm using, for example, Zuruggu, then you come in and hit me with...Komatana Brick Break, not only do I survive, but I get +1 and to OHKO you and heal myself with Drain Punch...increasing my Attack by another stage. With Oran, you can take more little priority hits but Oran Berry does not help setting up in the first place while Evolution Stone does. With Berry Juice, you could abuse the fact that you go all of the way to full HP if you're getting hit by many little damaging attacks, and to successfully abuse this, dual screens were used. Evolution Stone makes setting up itself easier rather than actually sweeping after set up.
I think we should definitely question Evolution Stone's tiering.
I think people are severely underrating the ability to avoid being OHKOed. Sure, Oran gives 10+ HP - sometimes more useful than Evolution Stone, but think about it on offensive Pokemon. If I'm using, for example, Zuruggu, then you come in and hit me with...Komatana Brick Break, not only do I survive, but I get +1 and to OHKO you and heal myself with Drain Punch...increasing my Attack by another stage. With Oran, you can take more little priority hits but Oran Berry does not help setting up in the first place while Evolution Stone does. With Berry Juice, you could abuse the fact that you go all of the way to full HP if you're getting hit by many little damaging attacks, and to successfully abuse this, dual screens were used. Evolution Stone makes setting up itself easier rather than actually sweeping after set up.
I think we should definitely question Evolution Stone's tiering.
Agreed. See my post for reasoning, after playtesting it's definitely too good for the meta on a number of pokemon. It sucks that sweepers are why it's broken though, as it gives defensive mons some much needed bulk and actually balances it out some. I think this proves that LC is the most offensive meta, as a defensive boost avaliable to every pokemon just makes offense even better.
This doesn't mean that zuruggu isn't broken ofc.
This doesn't mean that zuruggu isn't broken ofc.
Even though Evo Stone makes certain sweepers broken, Evo Stone Munchlax is still capable of dealing with most special sweepers.
That means that we really only need to find a godly physical wall, as opposed to a physical and a special one.
Then again, if every team must carry this wall to beat things such as Zuruggu, then the sweeper is still broken.
That means that we really only need to find a godly physical wall, as opposed to a physical and a special one.
Then again, if every team must carry this wall to beat things such as Zuruggu, then the sweeper is still broken.
Hippo can phaze it at +1, but that's the closest we have to a physical wall, per say. LC doesn't counter with walls though, it "counters" by revenging (which isn't countering at all, but with the strict definition of the word there are far too many uncounterable pokemon for that definition to work).
LC sweepers don't have counters. They have checks.
Anyway, Zuruggu is too bulky to revenge kill with a Scarfed 'mon/ priority. A wall is likely the best way to go about this. Or pack 6 revenge killers with no strategy/ team support other than killing Zuruggu. Personally, I prefer the idea of finding some way to make defense work.
If Dokkora can shell out 50% with Mach Punch (factoring Evo-Stone), I'm pretty sure Scarf STAB CC or Brave Bird KO pretty easily.
Both of you should back statements like that up with calcs. Are we just supposed to take your word for these values? It is your responsibility to include all relevant calculations in posts like these. I mentioned this in the OP, but apparently the message was not clear enough: If you talk about damage values, provide calculations to support your point.
I'm fine with that. Is there an accurate GenV calculator I should use, or will any damage calculator suffice?
I ran some calcs, but they kept giving me strange results, such as 1-2 damage........
I'm going to go ahead and assume that yours are correct, since mine clearly are not. But even so, Drain Punch gives it a little more survivability, not to mention if the Zuruggu gets lucky on a bunch of low-damage rolls.
But I see your point.
They aren't. I doubled the defenses instead of giving them a 50% boost.
Fixing.
EDIT: Ok. 22/19/19 Dark/Fighting.
Croagunk Fake Out: 4 - 5
Vacuum Wave: 12 - 14/22
16-19/22.
Owch.
Dokkora Mach Punch: 14 - 18/22
...it CAN KO with fully stacked hazards.
Washibon Hustle-Pluck: 18 - 24/22
I knew that looked stupidly weak. Who needs Brave Bird?
Mankey CC: 109.1% - 136.4%
I'm right!
...And we all know Doduo OHKOs with Brave Bird.
If you're using the Smogon Damage Calculator, it's likely that you're forgetting to set the defensive Pokemon's level to level 5.
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