Doesn't Ditto's poor base HP ensure a Grass Knot OHKO anyway?
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np: NU Stage 10 - Blackbird
- Thread starter jake
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The main reason why I don't use Piloswine much is just because it means I lose out on my Flying/Normal check. Usually if I'm going to use Piloswine, I'll throw on an Alomomola or something to pass it Wishes to get around the Spikes weakness a bit and to act as my Flying/Normal check. I also only ever really use Impish Piloswine with Roar, but that's because using it with Alomomola means I'm probably using it on a more defensive team. I also considered running it on one team to help with Sash Scolipede a bit (Stone Edge the first turn and Ice Shard the second), but Golem kind of handles this already with Rock Blast. Sure, they can Aqua Tail to bring you down to Sturdy and keep you from setting Stealth Rock, but at least you don't have any Spikes on your side of the field. Still, Piloswine can take on Scolipede fairly reliably as well and still live to set up Stealth Rock later.
Here's the problem with this line of thinking. Volbeat and Illumise are both really good weather starters that aren't at all broken. Without Prankster, rain and sun would lose two of their best setters, and it would honestly hurt the playstyle. It would also make the two of them totally worthless. Riolu isn't really broken either, but even if we all agreed that it was, it doesn't change the fact that as an ability, Prankster isn't broken. We just happen to have two really annoying Pokemon who abuse the hell out of it.
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I know, but the question is if Prankster is more harmful to the meta than it helps the meta, not if all the abusers are broken.
With Volbeat and Illumise gone, we would get Electrode as a rain starter instead, but I agree Volbeat and Illumise would become useless while they aren't broken (even then, I encountered SwagTW variants of those too, ugh @ all the hax)
Also, I find it odd how a complex ban like Liepard + Prankster has not been taken into consideration ^^ .
As it is now, Liepard + Riolu pretty much make me want to run something that can stop their shenanigans while also resisting both Dark Pulse and Drain Punch, or at least not being weak to either. Magic Coat + reliable recovery are required, and Psychics, Normals and Steels are no option. That leaves two Grass-types, in the form of Leavanny, Meganium and Tentacool, as well as Alomomola, to use this option, the latter having better things to do and the former three being outright bad in the current meta, and neither of them resist Dark. Also, Liepard can also set up a Substitute (and Nasty Plot) on them if they use Magic Coat, since they can't phaze with Whirlwind/Roar of their own.
With Volbeat and Illumise gone, we would get Electrode as a rain starter instead, but I agree Volbeat and Illumise would become useless while they aren't broken (even then, I encountered SwagTW variants of those too, ugh @ all the hax)
Also, I find it odd how a complex ban like Liepard + Prankster has not been taken into consideration ^^ .
As it is now, Liepard + Riolu pretty much make me want to run something that can stop their shenanigans while also resisting both Dark Pulse and Drain Punch, or at least not being weak to either. Magic Coat + reliable recovery are required, and Psychics, Normals and Steels are no option. That leaves two Grass-types, in the form of Leavanny, Meganium and Tentacool, as well as Alomomola, to use this option, the latter having better things to do and the former three being outright bad in the current meta, and neither of them resist Dark. Also, Liepard can also set up a Substitute (and Nasty Plot) on them if they use Magic Coat, since they can't phaze with Whirlwind/Roar of their own.
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On the contrary, the question is "is Prankster a broken ability?" and not the one you posed, as seen here and throughout the linked thread. This particular thread was a policy review on banning moves, but it can be extended to abilities as well (and is extended to abilities in this particular post). If we were talking about a specific Pokemon, I would agree with your line of thinking. We want to ban things that are too harmful to the meta, which, as Oglemi noted in the post I linked, is why we banned Blaziken and not Speed Boost. You have to think if banning Prankster would be the most efficient way of handling the problem, or if banning its abuser(s)—Liepard and arguably Riolu—would handle the issue with the least amount of repercussions possible.
I know this comes up at least twice a month, but I would totally get behind any ban that removes assist Liepard and copycat Riolu from this metagame. We might only have another month before everything gets shaken up by Kalos, but I would appreciate the peace. 
Mostly because they're not fun. I don't care about swagplay Liepard, but the whole priority shuffling thing is freaking obnoxious. Especially when half the bad people on the ladder using it don't even set up hazards first. They just shuffle to troll.
Mostly because they're not fun. I don't care about swagplay Liepard, but the whole priority shuffling thing is freaking obnoxious. Especially when half the bad people on the ladder using it don't even set up hazards first. They just shuffle to troll.
Prankster is not broken in my opinion.
Volbeat and Illumise gain very noticeable boosts from it but they don't pose any sort of significant threat beyond setting up for their teammates. Murkrow can use a better perish trapping set and has a lot better survival abilities being able to launch roost before just about anything else. Even Riolu's Copycat + Roar set is easily worked around with barely any thought in your team-building. Every team should carry some form of priority, including protect which force Riolu to attempt the chain again.
Liepard is the pokemon people seem to be having trouble with and while the Swagger set is annoying it can be defeated by a host of things including Own Tempo and Priority. This Assist set require your entire team uses only moves that cannot be picked by assist or that all teammates with moves that can be picked by assist but are not shuffling moves have already been eliminated. This can be quite easy to achieve and difficult to stop if you have not seen it coming and prepared accordingly. For example Toxic Spikes, our previous discussion point goes a long way toward stopping it as does Suction Cups Cradily which is a solid pokemon on its own. Faster priority is also great unless they've already set-up a sub in which case your getting worn down into KO range quite quickly when you examine what the faster priority users actually are.
Prankster boosts all non-damaging moves priority by +1 when it picks Assist the chosen moves priority does not come in to play so Whirlwind from Liepard will always have +1 priority leaving Pursuit (It won't be switching) , Fake Out (Most likely behind a Substitute) , Extremespeed (very poor distribution) and Feint as the priority damaging moves that can out-speed. From these moves we have Kangaskhan , Linoone and Growlithe that could stop the chain.
This leaves the likes of Aqua Jet , Bullet Punch , Ice Shard , Mach Punch , Quick Attack , Shadow Sneak and Vacuum Wave as moves that can out-speed provided that the Pokémon using them has higher speed than Liepard. Since Liepard has rather high speed we've hardly got anything that can hit it first. Swellow (Quick Attack) , Zangoose (Quick Attack) , Monoferno (Mach Punch) , Floatzel (Aqua Jet), Golduck (Aqua Jet) , Sneasel (Ice Shard) with several of these users more vulnerable depending on exactly how much speed Liepard runs.
So is it Prankster that is broken or the combination of Prankster and Liepard? I also don't see the point in implementing any more bans until XY hit us.
Volbeat and Illumise gain very noticeable boosts from it but they don't pose any sort of significant threat beyond setting up for their teammates. Murkrow can use a better perish trapping set and has a lot better survival abilities being able to launch roost before just about anything else. Even Riolu's Copycat + Roar set is easily worked around with barely any thought in your team-building. Every team should carry some form of priority, including protect which force Riolu to attempt the chain again.
Liepard is the pokemon people seem to be having trouble with and while the Swagger set is annoying it can be defeated by a host of things including Own Tempo and Priority. This Assist set require your entire team uses only moves that cannot be picked by assist or that all teammates with moves that can be picked by assist but are not shuffling moves have already been eliminated. This can be quite easy to achieve and difficult to stop if you have not seen it coming and prepared accordingly. For example Toxic Spikes, our previous discussion point goes a long way toward stopping it as does Suction Cups Cradily which is a solid pokemon on its own. Faster priority is also great unless they've already set-up a sub in which case your getting worn down into KO range quite quickly when you examine what the faster priority users actually are.
Prankster boosts all non-damaging moves priority by +1 when it picks Assist the chosen moves priority does not come in to play so Whirlwind from Liepard will always have +1 priority leaving Pursuit (It won't be switching) , Fake Out (Most likely behind a Substitute) , Extremespeed (very poor distribution) and Feint as the priority damaging moves that can out-speed. From these moves we have Kangaskhan , Linoone and Growlithe that could stop the chain.
This leaves the likes of Aqua Jet , Bullet Punch , Ice Shard , Mach Punch , Quick Attack , Shadow Sneak and Vacuum Wave as moves that can out-speed provided that the Pokémon using them has higher speed than Liepard. Since Liepard has rather high speed we've hardly got anything that can hit it first. Swellow (Quick Attack) , Zangoose (Quick Attack) , Monoferno (Mach Punch) , Floatzel (Aqua Jet), Golduck (Aqua Jet) , Sneasel (Ice Shard) with several of these users more vulnerable depending on exactly how much speed Liepard runs.
So is it Prankster that is broken or the combination of Prankster and Liepard? I also don't see the point in implementing any more bans until XY hit us.
This is pretty much the largest tiering debate you can have in a nutshell. Ever since the start of suspect testing, the question has always been whether or not we were aiming for a "fun" metagame, or a metagame with no "broken" threats. Everyone has different definitions of these, but I've always been of the opinion that less bans = better, and we should aim for a metagame with no "broken" threats. This philosophy has trickled down to both zeb and ras, which is nice for most cases. Unfortunately though, Assist Liepard / Copycat Riolu actually need a lot of support to work, and as FLCL listed, there are definitely ways to deal with them (Riolu is easier by far). They aren't broken, just annoying (I could list like 12 other adjectives here). It may not be fun, and I may not always agree with the current team leadership on their suspecting decisions, but I truly appreciate the fact that they have been consistent with my (and now their) overall philosophy of not overreacting to random fluctuations in the metagame and only considering legitimately overpowering Pokemon as suspects. Raseri may be a butt, but at least he's a fair butt.
Less bans is always the best way, we should be trying to make the most fun metagame we can out of the available mechanics and tools. There's no point trying to deny the simulations roots in game by banning large amounts of what makes the game.
Riolu and Liepard teams need a whole lot of support, but if constructed well, these teams are tough to beat even for the strongest players. Even though they need both a lot of support, they are incredibly hard to beat.
Partially because every well-constructed team carries one or two hazard setters, AssistLiepard teams work incredibly well. In fact, they are more flawed against noobs that carry random shit (like Fake Out Jynx -.- ) than against more experienced players, and I would argue the same for Riolu-teams (though Kangaskhan is a huge threat for Riolu teams for obvious reasons but Kanga makes forced moves, allowing Riolu to sit back and bring in that Golem/Misdreavus/Regirock).
Both teams are overcentralizing, up to the point there are only three counters to Riolu; Encore Liepard, Magic Coat on Psychic- and Grass-types, and Kangaskhan. The remainder - including other priority users - are handled just fine.
AssistLiepard has no counters at all outside of Leftovers Kangaskhan and regenerator cores + TSpikes absorber (provided you run those yourself), and teams without hazards.
Partially because every well-constructed team carries one or two hazard setters, AssistLiepard teams work incredibly well. In fact, they are more flawed against noobs that carry random shit (like Fake Out Jynx -.- ) than against more experienced players, and I would argue the same for Riolu-teams (though Kangaskhan is a huge threat for Riolu teams for obvious reasons but Kanga makes forced moves, allowing Riolu to sit back and bring in that Golem/Misdreavus/Regirock).
Both teams are overcentralizing, up to the point there are only three counters to Riolu; Encore Liepard, Magic Coat on Psychic- and Grass-types, and Kangaskhan. The remainder - including other priority users - are handled just fine.
AssistLiepard has no counters at all outside of Leftovers Kangaskhan and regenerator cores + TSpikes absorber (provided you run those yourself), and teams without hazards.
That's way easier said than done. I've had people try that against me, in which case I'd just shuffle the opponent's team around with Liepard until I get a Pokemon with hazards. Then I'd just bring Ditto in on the hazard user and set them up anyway. There are cases here and there where it doesn't work, sure, but 90% I'm still getting hazards up one way or another.
Of course, by far the worst games with that Assist team were against players who run no hazards at all. Just saiyan.
do you read posts in this thread before posting or do you watch two or three ladder games and then feed your confirmation bias when skilled players win with assist/copycat teams because they can skillfully maneuver around the opponent's checks to it
Really, if you're that worried about these teams, then run something scarfed with Taunt and make good predictions when you think they'll switch in Ditto. If you don't like that, just run anything FLCL listed. If you're going to complain about something like this, then don't play. Pokemon is about strategy, and this just happens to be a good strategy. Cradily can set up SR and is a decent special wall. Torkoal spins and sets up SR. Probopass sets up SR, traps steels, pivots, etc. Kanga is good. seriously, these are all viable Pokemon on the right team, so just please stop whining about it. No one is telling you to run fucking Mail Cradily; but don't act like nothing resists SR or Dark Pulse.
Ofcourse I do.
But Torkoal, Cradily & friends are quite limiting your options, aren't they? (I admit Kangaskhan isn't, but Kanga isn't on every team either despite being very good).
No counters at all is a bit of an exaggeration, but still, very few, and the counters there are, are not common and Magic Coat users can be set up on unless it is something that does not normally carry Magic Coat.
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To be fair, not everything on FLCL's list works perfectly in shutting down those sorts of teams. Several of those things can be played around quite easily, as I have experienced playing with the team over the past couple of days. For example, Torkoal can be worked around by going to Haunter, which puts your opponent in a pickle. If they stay in, you might Trick a Scarf onto them, putting them at a risk of winning the speed tie against Ditto and spinning before SR is set up, when pretty much ends Torkoal right there. If they switch out, they risk you double switching to Ditto first (since Haunter is faster) and possibly getting SR up, depending on what is switched in. Probopass can't be killed easily by Liepard itself, but it won't save the rest of the team from Assist phazing + SR damage, and it can be easily killed by Nature Power if it's the last man standing. This applies for many other SR resistant Pokemon with Leftovers and Regenerator Pokemon as well; they themselves can survive the phazing, but that doesn't mean their teammates will.
There are a few things that I do think stop Liepard teams cold. I agree with Suction Cups Cradily, as Liepard can't phaze it out or set up on it easily. Provided you keep it away from Trick and Switcheroo, it almost singlehandedly stops Liepard. Faster priority (Kangaskhan's Fake Out, Linoone's Extremespeed, Swellow's Quick Attack) can heavily damage a Liepard that doesn't have a Sub up. Now, it is possible for Liepard to recover the damage done by stalling for Leftovers recovery with Assist, but it has to be lucky enough to not bring the priority user back in frequently. Bastiodon might not be as good overall as Probopass, but a specially defensive Bastiodon with Magic Coat + Roar plays insane mind games with Liepard. You either Assist and risk being Magic Coated, or you try to set up and risk being Roared out. Unlike Probopass, Bastiodon actually has a good shot at stopping Liepard's Assist chain in its tracks.
Those are the closest things to "perfect" answers to the strategy I can think of. Besides that, the level of resistance against this strategy also depends on the team as a whole; if you have a few Pokemon that are SR resistant and/or have Leftovers, as well as a Protect user or two (Liepard can set up on a predicted Protect, so be careful), you'll probably survive more easily. Like FLCL mentioned, depending on what your SR user is, you might be able to go to something like Sawk or Samurott and shut Ditto down. Of course, the effectiveness of that can differ from one circumstance to another.
Liepard sucks; we get it. I want to talk about the almighty Fire Water Grass cores and their relevance in NU.
Up until today, I hadn't used a nice bulky offensive FWG core in NU probably since Emboar was in the tier. It's amazing how relevant and threatening these cores can be in RU and UU, but in NU, they don't seem to be around much. This is probably most likely because we don't have very many good Fire-types outside of Charizard, which is kind of hard to build a core with because of its Stealth Rock weakness. The cool thing about FWG cores is that they cover each other really well both offensively and defensively, and Charizard can't typically contribute much to the defensive side of that without some pretty huge support from other Pokemon such as CB Sawk (which doesn't work that often anyways against good players) or Armaldo/Wartortle.
However, today, I built a team around Specs Camerupt, Life Orb Samurott, and offensive Eviolite Roselia, and it's really a lot of fun. Each of these Pokemon are bulky enough to take at least a hit or two when they absolutely need to—though Camerupt is actually pretty frail without investment and can mostly take resisted attacks—and cover each other really well. Camerupt in particular is so nice to have around because it gives me a fantastic offensive check to Eelektross.
I know that Fighting Psychic Dark cores are a lot more popular in NU because of the viability of Pokemon of these types and how well they also cover each other, but FWG cores have a lot of potential. So what do you guys think about them? To me, the only really hard part about these cores is finding a Fire-type. What kinds of Pokemon would you used and have you used in these cores? Are there any good substitutions for Fire-types if you can't really find one?
Up until today, I hadn't used a nice bulky offensive FWG core in NU probably since Emboar was in the tier. It's amazing how relevant and threatening these cores can be in RU and UU, but in NU, they don't seem to be around much. This is probably most likely because we don't have very many good Fire-types outside of Charizard, which is kind of hard to build a core with because of its Stealth Rock weakness. The cool thing about FWG cores is that they cover each other really well both offensively and defensively, and Charizard can't typically contribute much to the defensive side of that without some pretty huge support from other Pokemon such as CB Sawk (which doesn't work that often anyways against good players) or Armaldo/Wartortle.
However, today, I built a team around Specs Camerupt, Life Orb Samurott, and offensive Eviolite Roselia, and it's really a lot of fun. Each of these Pokemon are bulky enough to take at least a hit or two when they absolutely need to—though Camerupt is actually pretty frail without investment and can mostly take resisted attacks—and cover each other really well. Camerupt in particular is so nice to have around because it gives me a fantastic offensive check to Eelektross.
I know that Fighting Psychic Dark cores are a lot more popular in NU because of the viability of Pokemon of these types and how well they also cover each other, but FWG cores have a lot of potential. So what do you guys think about them? To me, the only really hard part about these cores is finding a Fire-type. What kinds of Pokemon would you used and have you used in these cores? Are there any good substitutions for Fire-types if you can't really find one?
Charizard always has a looming presence in the tier, too many players underestimate it due to the SR weakness, but there's no denying it can wreck a ton of shit if there wasn't SR. A core devised by FLCL iirc, Torterra's main job is to beat up SR leads like Golurk, Seismitoad, Piloswine, and even Golem thanks to Bullet Seed, all while covering Electric and Rock attacks aimed at Charizard. Charizard in turn absorbs Will-o-Wisps and destroys pretty much any physical wall that can stand up to Torterra. The FG core is complete here, but there is a pretty huge Water weakness here since neither can't take those attacks well. Mantine or Ludicolo work well as Water-type counters, but Carracosta makes a fine choice for a more offensive edge.
This core is also cool:
Combusken has kick-ass STABs that are only stopped cold by a few, like Altaria and Grumpig. Why not lure those bastards out with Samurott? Use Megahorn to lure in Altaria, then smash it with Ice Beam. Use a special move to lure Grumpig in, then skewer the tub of lard. For the bulky pokes Samurott can't break, like Regice and Lickilicky, Combusken's got them covered too. What's that, want a Grass mon? I dunno about you, but Sawsbuck could be good to offer some initial speed to the core, and tends to lure in Will-o-Wisp users like Weezing and Misdreavus that Combusken can switch in on. It even knows Baton Pass, which it can use to pass Substitutes or even Swords Dances if you use a physical Ken (tweak the Samurott accordingly). Roselia gives no f**ks about Alomomola and can stop Ludicolo while offering Spikes or Toxic Spikes support, the latter of which Ken loves since it has Sub+Protect to rack up damage. It should be noted that this core cannot effectively deal with Mantine, and adding a Flying-weak Grass mon stacks up weaknesses (Roselia also stacks Psychic weaknesses), so.....Cradily I guess? Not really sure with this one, but hey, insurance against ShufflePard
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Gorebyss is a fantastic set-up sweeper but has trouble with some bulkier Pokemon like Mantine and Ludicolo. Rapidash, in turn, smashes those Pokemon with Flare Blitz and Wild Charge. The grass type is really up for debate. Roselia shits on Alomomola/Ludicolo and offers Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes, which Gorebyss and Rapidash both make good use of. Cradily lays down Stealth Rocks and soaks up Water moves aimed at Rapidash. Tangela can take a hit and offers sleep/paralysis support. Honestly, the grass type is really based on preference; Torterra, Ludicolo, and Exeggutor are all viable options as well, along with many others. Gorebyss also loves fighting-type support, so Sawk is a great option to throw in too.
Since Gorebyss was mentioned I wanna briefly say something about it. On the ladder I think it was deserving of its usage last month, and even in general it's very easy for Gorebyss to get a chance to set up and sweep in this meta, especially if you predict incorrectly. These two are examples where every other Pokemon on my team was pretty much useless for most of the match because Gorebyss is so good. http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nucurrent-54716896 and http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nucurrent-54730491 are examples of where Gorebyss just needs to find the opportunity to set up and can completely destroy other teams. So for that reason I think it can be a pretty huge threat in the meta under the right conditions.
I disagree actually. Supporting Gorebyss is really hard against good players because they usually have a Scarfer that can outspeed Gorebyss, or just straight out attack Gorebyss the moment it comes in to prevent it from setting up. From my experiences with it, it can't prevent itself from being revenged without a Sub and setting up a Sub and Smash is really difficult. Granted, once it sets up and gets rid of scarfers, it's really dangerous, but it doesn't really find those opportunities apart from on walls that status it as it subs
I'm kinda skeptical. Even with Timid, Gorebyss can only beat out base 85 Scarfers, which haven't been the standard for a long time. Scarf Ape, Jynx, Haunter, Sawsbuck, Zard, Electabuzz, Zebstrika and Tauros can all OHKO you at -1, and if you run White Herb then you can't break stuff like Lickilicky or SDef Ludi, especially if they sack something at low health to bring them in. I could see Gorebyss doing well on the ladder, but not so much against a well prepared player.
Gorebyss is kinda well prepared for, and can't really break through its checks. It's still a solid Pokemon, though. It would probs see a lot mire usage with SmashPass being unbanned, but yeah, it'll remain that way.
Also Punchshroom how is Torterra beating Piloswine?!?
Edit-k, but shaky imo
Also Punchshroom how is Torterra beating Piloswine?!?
Edit-k, but shaky imo
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Kingler12345 Choice Band / Grass Gem Wood Hammer. Or you could predict the Ice Shard and OHKO with Overgrow CB / Gem 3-hit Bullet Seed.
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