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Metagame NP: NU Stage 3 - Rain On Me [Bans Post #87]

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:tauros: super good speed in conjunction with an amazing attack stat and great coverage makes this mon hard to switch into. i think this mon is still too strong for the nu-tier as it hits everything like a truck and its resists are usually weak to its coverage options in throat chop (ghosts), close combat / earthquake (steels), furthermore it isn't easy to manage to break a potential substitute. ya no pls BAN.

:exeggutor-alola: same stuff like tauros, but in a different way; usually steel-types wall the grass-dragon combination but with flamethrower it can break past through these steel-type-pokémon. it can have plenty of sets, which you all have to scout for first. it can run specs, mixed, even more defensive-ish ones with leech seed to blow holes in a slower way. i just think this is too much for nu thus i'm leaning towards BAN.

:drampa: oh boy least with the many ghosts it has some stab-hyper voice checks but it can just predict and dish out a draco meteor instead and choice specs isn't the only set which it can run to break holes easily. its special attack is absolutely no joke and i feel like the few switchins are getting blown away with coverage like flamethrower (steelvally as example) i would lean towards BAN.

:duraludon: ABSTAIN for now, i would like to see how it fits in the nu-tier first in my opinion at least, to see if it is really too much for this tier. it's spdef sucks and with so many ground-types dropping like gastrodon it should be managable. I think we can always suspect it later, if we figure out it's potentially too much.

:frosmoth: its held back by its trash speed and physical hits as well as mons like ninetales, rapidash, silvally-steel and silvally-fire will hold it back. it has to setup a quiver dance first before it can break and without 1 boost it is way too slow as the nu-tier has a lot of faster pkmn and scarfers. the typing itself isn't a blessing either, thus i would say let it stay.

:ribombee: let's not talk about this broken tiny bumbelbee, that mon has insane speed, a great typing, furthermore utility in stun spore and a solid spatt, furthermore sticky webs is dumb as hell, cause this mon always gets them up and with the affromentioned stun spore it can help its teammates even further. u-turn gives the partners of ribombee momentum. bumbelbee too good, i would say BAN.

:vikavolt: ABSTAIN

:haunter: we all know what it does, specs, scarf, life orb, has good speed and great dual-stab + coverage in thunderbolt, dazzling gleam, energy ball. it can do what it needs to do for the team. furthermore its spatt is really pressuring to most mons, i'm leaning towards BAN.

:sneasel: ABSTAIN aswell.

the Abstainers i think COULD be problematic but dont have to be problematic, so lets see how they fit into the nu tier first i would say. if they are too good we can always suspect them on a later point.

thanks for reading & have a nice day every1.
 
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While Duraludon makes for a nice wallbreaker with its hefty special attack and varied movepool, lack of setup, low special defense, and average speed at best mean that lots of checks can come in to put a halt to its rampage. Mons like Magneton, Gastrodon, Quagsire and Lanturn are solid enough defensive options to keep it from spamming, especially against choice specs sets which are the optimal build for Duraludon for that extra firepower.

Vikavolt is strong as hell, but it's so painfully slow that it really doesn't feel necessary to ban it with how many fast sweepers there are in the metagame. It honestly works best as a lead for Sticky Webs that can counter other leads, but I've never found its presence to be so overwhelming that it can't be dealt with.
 
As stated before, the nu council has now voted on the slate of Drampa / Duraludon / Exeggutor-Alola / Frosmoth / Haunter / Ribombee / Sneasel / Tauros / Vikavolt, and we now have the results.

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As can be seen from this list, Exeggutor-Alola, Haunter, and Tauros are all now banned from SS NU, effective immediately.

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:exeggutor-alola: Exeggutor-Alola
The only one of the dragons that ended up being banned, Exeggutor-Alola differentiates itself with having two high powered stabs to back itself up with, as well as a better defensive typing that allows it to take advantage of a larger majority of pokemon in the tier. While its speed leaves a lot to be desired, it can offset that by running trick room, and even base 45 when invested can be enough to outspeed a large amount of bulkier mons in the tier. It also has the coverage in flamethrower to pressure steel types, making the only really reliable check to exeggutor-alola either revenge killing it or with a very specially bulky fairy type like clefairy, which can still be 2hkod via specs even with max spdef. Overall Exeggutor-Alola was found to be the most problematic of the dragons, and finds itself banned on the first slate.​

:haunter: Haunter
Previously banned in a prior stage of SSNU, Haunter finds itself banned again after showing that not much has changed for it since its last ban. With the shift to SS, Haunter gained a lot in the loss of pursuit from the movepool, allowing it to be more free when revenge killing or switching in, without having to worry about pursuits from mons like Sneasel or Tauros. It also appreciates the drop in power level from previous generations, allowing it to be one of the hardest hitters in the tier with 115 SpA, and has an excellent offensive dual stab combination that allows it to hit all NU mons at least neutrally, aside from Skuntank. Its defensive typing is also not the worst, as it gives it two different type immunities in Normal and Fighting, with levitate giving it the immunity to ground type moves as well.​

:tauros: Tauros
Tauros is also banned again, after being one of the more recent bans in the tier before the DLC fully reached NU. A lot has changed for it from previous generrations however, and the addition of throat chop&close combat to its movepool makes it much harder to counter/check. Throat chop in particular being a dark move that gets the sheer force boost, and allows it to 2hko all ghosts in the tier aside from sableye. Close combat as well gives it the ability to pressure steels/rocks even harder than earthquake could. It also has a great speed tier, allowing it to be one of the fastest mons in the tier, which when combined when all the other upsides makes it very hard to deal with. The defensive counterplay that Tauros forces mandates Pokemon like Sableye being run solely to check it, as most defensive mons get 2hkod by the right coverage, and even offensive pivots have to be afraid of being ohkod by body slam or its coverage.​
Tagging Marty The Immortal to update the ladder and builder whenever they get the chance.

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For those who wanted to see more bans, this will not be the end of the voting that council will be having of the rest of the month. Expect at least one more vote to happen before this month culminates, as we are not sure what this new meta will look like once these bans take effect. I've loved seeing all the posts in this thread so far, so please keep them up, they really do help when I am trying to form my opinions on the slate.
 
Hello NU!

Just wanted to share some of my general thoughts on the tier after some pretty big changes that I'm sure you are all aware of. There's a lot to be discussed for this exciting new meta so let's begin

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Sneasel will always be good because it is the best knock off user in the tier. Being able to knock off items such as Eviolite or Heavy duty boots is hugely beneficial as it can help break down defensive cores and force progress. On top of this, Sneasel boasts an impressive 115 base speed stat and access to new moves such as Triple Axel, making it one of the fastest threats in the tier.

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I was honestly pretty surprised that I was the only person who voted ban on this since I really do think Frosmoth is absurdly strong given the lack of viable Rock and Fire types within the tier. I’ve always thought that Ice was one of the best offensive typings and with the introduction of HDBs, Frosmoth no longer has to fear taking hazards damage giving it many more opportunities to set up and threaten a sweep. Its ability, Ice Scales, also makes it much harder to revenge kill than another QD sweepers we have seen in the past like Butterfree :psyduck:. However, I could see arguments to keep it in the tier such as the lack of direct recovery like roost, which would’ve definitely put it over the edge otherwise, and a somewhat mediocre move pool.

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Drampa is back! This time to stay for the forseeable future. If you have played SS NU, then you know the threat that is specs drampa. A crazy high 135 spa and decent bulk makes Drampa one of the best breakers in the tier. Having said that, I do think that there are many more offensive threats now, making it easier to revenge Drampa (specs Ribombee, Sneasel, Vanilluxe etc.) and harder as a whole to get Drampa in. Per the above reasons, I would like to see how it fares in the current metagame before giving it the boot.

Lastly, I want to touch on one more topic: Sticky Web.
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Webs has been a popular Hyper Offense tool ever since the move was introduced in Generation VI. Although we haven’t seen much of webs in SS NU, I would not be surprised at all if that were to change since we just got not 1, not 2, but 3 new web setters in Galvantula, Ribombee, and Vikavolt. I think there is a lot to be explored here given the combination of multiple Sticky Web users and the newly introduced offensive threats. Really enjoyed reading all of your posts and looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with in the new meta!
 

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council transparency = rabia reasonings on the two bans I voted that didn't go through

:vikavolt: In my eyes, not really anything has changed for Vikavolt since it was last here outside of the metagame being slightly faster. It still has the same opportunities to switch in, and it still wallbreaks just as easily as it did last time. It's got deceptively good bulk, can enable its team with Sticky Web, and competes with the other dummy strong wallbreakers for the spot as most potent wallbreaker in the tier through its great power and coverage.

:duraludon: Originally, I had Duraludon as my worst of the three dragons because of how compromising it can feel in the teambuilder. It's a Steel-type that... gets OHKOed by Whimsicott's Moonblast. Yikes. As I played more against it, though, it felt more and more oppressive. It's weaker than Alolan Exeggutor and Drampa, but it's much faster, which in my eyes is what pushes it over the edge. Being able to threaten possible revenge killers like Vanilluxe and Toxicroak (if you're ballsy enough to win the tie lol) is super helpful and further complicates the issue of how to actually deal with it. And yeah, its coverage isn't amazing, but Dragon + Steel + Electric with Body Press filler is really all it needs.

general thoughts on the other mons

:frosmoth: This Pokemon is very matchup at times I feel; overwhelming Steel-types isn't the worst to ask your team to do, but I still feel it can struggle to really get going. Teams commonly have been running two Steel-types because of the overabundance of Dragon- and Fairy-types, which only complicates things further for Frosmoth. Additionally, it's not a tall task to pair these Steel-types with Wish recovery via Aromatisse, making it even harder to overwhelm them in the long term.

:ribombee: I view Choice Specs as the only good set at the moment for this because Quiver Dance sets feel far too weak and outdone by Frosmoth; even then, I think the Steel-type spam harms it enough to keep it in check. Trick is annoying to deal with if you don't have a Silvally-Steel, but it becomes much weaker if it drops its Choice Specs; is weak to hazards, which makes it easier to keep in place; and isn't very bulky, so it doesn't have the easiest time getting into battle.

:drampa: Part of my vote is due to not having seen this Pokemon... at all. On paper it looks bonkers, but the most Drampa has going for it compared to April meta is more chances to come in. I think it gained a LOT of offensive countermeasures (Sneasel, Vanilluxe, Ribombee, to name a few) and some defensive answers. It also sort of sucks (if you're running Choice Specs sets) that Drampa's STAB attacks have immunities, which makes it harder to brainlessly throw out attacks. Definitely a Pokemon to keep an eye on, but I'm not sold on immediate action being necessary.

:sneasel: Also something that should be kept a close eye on, Sneasel has a bit more counterplay now than it did when we originally had it, but STAB Knock Off still hurts a lot, and it's fast as hell. I'm not sure on how long I want to see this remain around, but I didn't feel confident in it needing a ban yet.
 
hey I'll be adding some thoughts on what I voted ban on, what was banned and what was nominated to be banned

the bans:
eggy-alola- this mon had a big resurgence in SM actually and many people struggled to switch into it. it usually came down to either golbat or predicting the grass and dragon spam correctly and pivoting accordingly. however, there are even less pokemon in ss because of the dex cut, which leads to even less switch-ins and counters. it's impossible to switch in with specs/lo grass, dragon and fire coverage because of how switch ins to particular types like stunfisk-galar being a dragon resist are irrelevant because grass stab will do a lot to it and fire is super effective

haunter- haunter honestly doesn't look busted at all as a pokemon and has never been thought to be too good for nu in any generation it's in (which is literally every gen from adv-ss now). right now, it just gets too freedom with its typing actually making it easy to pivot into and really difficult to switch into. nothing in the tier can safely take a strong shadow ball along with sludge wave, and it even has coverage to cover some ohkos like sandaconda being nuked by energy ball. no surprise that it's banned because it limits teambuilding a lot and has continuously been awful to play around

tauros- tauros has been a premier nu mon across many generations and it only got better with ss gaining access to throat chop (which triggers sheer force) and close combat. this gave it 2 more powerful moves that would decimate its would-be counters in the previous generations. Science The Voices I'm sorry you were not happy with my vote lmao but it's one of the mons I didn't play around with too much and in my head seemed not too difficult to pivot around

my other ban:
sneasel- I think having one of the fastest pokemon in the tier with access to the strongest knock off and strongest physical ice stab is just too much personally. knock off is one of the best moves in the game, and in a meta like nu where hazards and hazard control is rampant, having a pokemon just knock your recovery off or knock off your boots makes building really difficult. like yeah, mawile and poliwrath can counter it but they also just get knocked and then are required to switch into multiple attacks. you can also use boots swords dance or just normal banded knock/low kick/axel and it's incredibly difficult to pivot into without suffering a los

other noms:
drampa- the only thing that's really changed for drampa is having more pokemon that can easily force it out. this is a pretty big shift, though, because previously it wasn't that easy to exert pressure onto a drampa because the only things were like sawk and dragonvally. I think yache berry cm roost is the best set for this because it can easily live at least 1 powerful ice move from like sneasel or frosmoth then ohko in response with fire stab. I think it'll still be incredibly strong and could even be revisited later on.

duraladon- this pokemon is honestly pretty insane. I think the combination of a strong draco meteor/flash cannon + something that handles the switch ins to its stabs and coverage like ferroseed/stunfisk can easily be lured and knocked or just chipped down. a lot of the switch ins to it can easily crumble after long-term pressure and then it'll go crazy because it has a solid speed matching that of croak and its typing makes it only have a couple weaknesses. its spdef is awful and it will struggle to switch into many physical moves unless you run max hp max defense for some reason, but I think it'll be a strong hitter that has enough bulk and the typing to live some hits

frosmoth- its coverage is too limiting, its speed is too slow and it's required to pretty much only use 1 item ever. if it was 100 speed, it would pretty much just be volcarona except ice. think the speed is the main thing limiting it because so many offensive pokemon outspeed it.. the only ones that don't are like abomasnow? I guess it does hard counter aboma but yeah

ribombee- this pokemon seems really strong. I think a set like boots, webs, moonblast, psychic, u turn would be kinda crazy and would act as a psuedo-webs setter as well as just spamming damage and u turning out safely, kinda similar to ninjask. it's the fastest viable pokemon apart from ninjask so I think it would settle into this role pretty freely. specs is also super strong and can be used to cripple answers like stunfisk and ferroseed, making them bait for the rest of your team

vikavolt- vika is just super potent and boots only makes it stronger. electric and bug is a really difficult stab combination to switch into, and having access to energy ball as a move makes it even harder. either boots webs or boots 3 attacks roost seem like the best. I like boots webs as a set because it doesn't force you into committing to a solo-HO team composition and with roost you could heal up and set webs up later. its typing is also pretty solid defensively so you could run a bulkier one to pretty solid success

excited to see how this new meta turns out!
 
gonna put a few teams here so if anyone is struggling a little bit to think of possible sets/cores they have a potential reference point (or if anyone just straight wants teams that aren't too unusable lol)

:mudsdale: :ninetales: :miltank: :garbodor: :rotom: :whimsicott:
https://pokepast.es/f3f65c404439d8e5

This team was built on stream today and was really fun. Choice Band Mudsdale is pretty strong and has fair offensive synergy with Ninetales, helping weaken Jellicent for Ninetales while it deals with Grass-types for the horse. Miltank + Garbodor + Rotom felt like a generally fine utility core from here, with Growth Pixie Plate Whimsicott rounding out the team and serving as a revenge killer and secondary setup sweeper that benefits from what Mudsdale and Ninetales threaten.

:gallade: :vikavolt: :piloswine: :kingler: :silvally:(steel) :decidueye:
https://pokepast.es/2f0e501549a244a2

Sticky Web offense. I think there is room for improvement still with this team, mostly looking at some EV spreads and nature choices. The team is pretty simple: Sticky Web Vikavolt with four really strong wallbreakers and a Silvally-Steel to patch up the inevitable defensive holes while still offering some offensive potential. Decidueye could probably be Hurricane > Roost so it's not fodder for Drampa.

:ribombee: :weezing: :ferroseed: :lanturn: :silvally:(steel) :sneasel:
https://pokepast.es/7b6a26f2299ee64f

Choice Specs Ribombee is pretty fun, but a funny way to enable it more is by stealing eternally's tech of Infestation Weezing and trapping random Steel-types. I did Silvally-Steel here because I wanted a Toxic Spikes-immune Defogger that also could check a boosted Frosmoth, although there is probably some room for experimentation there. Lastly, I felt like trying Heavy-Duty Boots Sneasel because enough people made noise about it being good. It's... fine. Not taking entry hazards damage is cool, and Knock Off is still really spammable.
 
Hi all, I'll be handling the second council vote of the month. Here's the slate that has been nominated by the NU Council (note that we vote on everything that gets nominated by the council, regardless of the amount of votes they receive):

:toxicroak: Toxicroak, :frosmoth: Frosmoth, :vikavolt: Vikavolt, :drampa: Drampa, :duraludon: Duraludon, :gallade: Gallade, :vanilluxe: Vanilluxe, :sneasel: Sneasel, :ribombee: Ribombee, :kingler: Kingler

You can expect posts from some NU Council members within the next couple of days to give insight on their nominations / votes, but until then please feel free to discuss this slate and let us know how you feel about these Pokemon in the current metagame!
 
:toxicroak: i think croak is a bit overwhelming for the tier as it can demolish almost everything in the tier with plenty of superb copverage options. it doesnt matter if you go special or physical even the sturdiest pkmns can suffer a loss to croak as it has a way of breaking even its best check in runerigus with a strong dark pulse after a nasty plot-boost. i think croak is too much for the tier as the couting of the set can be difficult already. ban

:frosmoth: big snom does what it does, quivering up and dancing through the nu tier; it may not seem as powerful on paper but once it gets a quiver dance up it can run through many teams. sure we have a great steel back in silvally, and togedemaru is also a great considerable option, which also counts for ninetales and rapidash, but i think frosmoth, especially after a qd, has not much proper counterplay and its ability ice sclaes prevents it to get revengekilled by a speial move that easily. abstain leaning towards ban

:vikavolt: just slap a choice specs on it and its busted. vikavolt is very overwhelming for the tier as it can even hit grounds like rhydon for super-effective damage with a specs-boosted energy ball. togedemaru can stall it out w wish + toxic but i think this bug for sure is too much to handle. ban

:drampa: with the many ghosts running around, silvally-steel being there and many fast threats i feel like drampa can stay in the tier. no ban

:duraludon: abstain

:gallade: & :vanilluxe: & :kingler: abstain

:ribombee: fast, good spat, can bypass poisons with psychic, has u-turn to get out of complicated MUs and with specs it hits hard. i think the only pkmn which resist both its stab and its coverage in psychic and u turn are steelvally, togedemaru and stunfisk-galar, anything else gets hit at least for neutral damage output. it is also fast enoigh to not being prone to revengekillers. i think bumbelbee is a bit too much for nu. leaning towards ban

:bw/sneasel: my personal big concern is this thing. steelvally and poliwrath are the only real defensive switchins which we have right now. but with access to knock of it can punish those switchins, least poliwrath and maybe other calibers like gurdurr and scarf togedemaru and then it opens up a lot for itself and its teammates. i just feel the defensive counterplay to sneasel is way too limited currently and all its sets are viable options and its a mon i do not see many drawbacks in using it with a superb speed-tier as well. ban
 
I admit, the NU ladder hasn't been seeing much activity in my area for whatever reason, so I don't necessarily have the most accurate feel on what is or isn't broken. Still, here are my general thoughts based on what experience I have had and what I've seen in my calcs and theorymon-ing. This is just my opinion on things.

Probably Ban
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My opinion on Drampa hasn't really changed at all. While plenty of mons can revenge kill it (although only Fighting types can really guarantee the OHKO), few can really afford to safely switch in, especially with Specs. This is largely because Drampa's spectacular movepool, packing dangerous options like Fire Blast, Energy Ball, Thunderbolt, Hydro Pump, Focus Blast- you need to be very careful with predictions, or else you sack a mon. That's not even touching on its abilities, allowing it to either increase its already great SpA without set up or blanking Grass types. Sure, in a higher level game Drampa will usually only take one mon out, but that's all it really needs to do. Plus, you could also be facing bulky CM or just generally bulky- you can never be sure with this guy.

Gallade is a pretty self-explanatory mon: with SD or Scarf this thing just cleans house like nobody's business. Sure, it doesn't have the best speed tier anymore, but it's still sufficient for getting the jump on quite a few NU staples. Between its STAB combo and Knock Off, it basically hits everything relevant super hard, meaning Choiced sets have a good amount of options for that last slot. Need priority? Just slap on Shadow Sneak. Need to bypass stall mons? Trick has got you covered. Physical sweepers giving you trouble? Will-o-wisp to cripple or Destiny Bond once Gallade's done all you need it to. Plus you got good coverage like Triple Axel, Stone Edge or Thunder Punch. This gent is probably the most broken thing on this slate.

Kingler is just generally a bit restrictive on the team builder. If you want to counter Double Dance, you basically need Poliwrath, and he can't really do that much in return without boost thanks to Kingler's naturally good Defense stat. Of course, you could always drop Agility for, say, Superpower, seeing as at +2 that move is guaranteed to 2HKO even the most physically bulky Wrath. Either way, Kingler just smacks the tier way too hard.

While the other mons in this section are mostly here for their sheer power, Ribombee becomes broken in my eyes due to its speed and its great amount of versatility. Specs seem to be the most dominant right now, as outside of Scarf only Ninjask outspeeds (and Ninjask is not known for having an easy time coming in). It does also possess Quiver Dance to get a sweep going or great utility in Sticky Web, U-turn and occasionally Stun Spore to help give its teammates that same breezy feeling it experiences. This thing honestly just does too much and at a pace must mons can't keep up with.

Could Go Either Way
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Duraludon
packs a slightly lower Special attack than Drampa or the recently banned A. Exeggutor, but makes up for it with somewhat decent speed tier. It's movepool is shallow but manageable, with Steel STAB for those fairies, Thunderbolt for bulky waters, Dark Pulse for the abundant ghost types or Body Press if you need hit Steels; you also get utility in Rocks and TWave. So why am I not as hard on Dur as I am on Drampa? First off, its obvious Achilles heel of abysmal special bulk allowing even neutral special hits to 2HKO with little difficulty. Second, while its Speed tier is an improvement over Dramps, it's still not overwhelming, having to Speed tie with a lot of dangerous threats and failing to outspeed Silvally, which is not a good place to be for something so specially frail. Also, its reliance on Choice items makes it a bit prediction reliant, and since it lacks the movepool necessary to still be unpredictable that Drampa has, I feel that the banhammer isn't necessarily a done deal for this guy.

Admittedly, my reluctance to outright say Sneasel has to go may just be because I always factor "Can it come in?" into my analysis when it comes to these things; it's hard to argue that Sneasel can come into any non-Psychic attack, especially since it can't effectively run Boots to cover its Rocks weakness. There are other factors, sure, namely that revenge killing it isn't that hard between priority and Scarf, its best STAB has less than stellar accuracy (I'm the kind of guy who gets screwed over by RNG a lot, so I definitely have a bias here) and how it has two perfect counters in Poliwrath and A. Persian; Wrath just blows this thing back while Persian cripples it with Parting Shot. That said, Banded or SD Sneasel is still nothing to be taken lightly- unless you can burn it, its STABs heavily threaten most of the tier, while Low Kick provides coverage against those pesky Steels. Also, those two mons I listed are the only things that can safely eat a hit, and even A. Persian doesn't really want to take 3-hit Axel. I'm a bit more reluctant to ban it than most, but this thing is easily the most suspect thing in my "maybe" section.

Toxicroak has been a dominant force in NU for months on end, between a great STAB combo, great movepool, and the ability to go either physical or special. Nothing about it necessarily screams overwhelming to me, and whichever set you go for will have consistent counters, such as how it needs Earthquake to take on Garbodor, but that may just be because I haven't actually encountered Croak that much. I decided not to pass judgement on this thing because I simply can't tell this one on calcs alone and I don't feel I have the experience to make a call one way or another.

But wait, you say. What exactly makes Vikavolt less problematic than Drampa? Well, a few things: while some have brought up the terror of Specs Volt, I find that set isn't too good since Volt, unlike Drampa, needs to content with a Rocks weakness, especially with its propensity to click Volt Switch, meaning it simply needs Boots more and so ends up not hitting as hard as Specs Drampa does. Plus, it again does not have the ability to just slot in anything on Specs, bringing back the issue of predictability for a hypothetical Specs set. That's not to say its weak, though: its STABs are pretty good and Energy Ball hits the Ground types that are its biggest hinderance, plus it gets Webs, Roost for longevity or Agility to set up. This is where its other problems become apparent to me, though. As a Web setter, it can struggle a bit since its low Speed leaves it vulnerable to Taunt, which also prevents that sweep from starting or hinders its ability to heal itself. This speed also means that it can be revenge killed without too much issue, unable to get itself out quickly like fellow Web setters Bee or Galvantula can even when Webs are up. Finally, it usually forgoes Tbolt for the weaker Volt Switch, so it again may find itself surprisingly lacking in power. Volt is easy to play around, but you do still need to more careful around it than with other mons.

It's (probably) Fine
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Frosmoth,
from what I have seen, tends to be a fairly hit or miss mon. Sure, Quiver Dance is terrifying, but even at +1 speed there are still quite a few mons that can outspeed (especially with a bevy of good Scarfers), and +1 Hurricane fails to OHKO Froslass, never mind Jellicent and SteelVally, who both easily blank it. Unboosted, Frosmoth is a sitting duck against the onslaught of strong physical attackers and cannot switch into anything that carries Knock Off, since without Boots it just dies to Rocks. Frosmoth basically needs to get +2 to actually be consistently threatening, and even then we do have a few solid priority users that can revenge kill it after whatever damage it takes while it sets up (no good player is just going to let it get to +2). Therefore, I don't find the moth too overwhelming.

Honestly, discussing Vanilluxe is just a discussion about Hail. Vanilluxe itself is not that threatening against common Ice resists, especially struggling against Steels like SteelVally, A. Slash and Gunfisk; heck, it doesn't even 2HKO offensive Togedemaru. The only reason to ban Vanilluxe would be if you just can't stand Aurora Veil, but it is possible to play around Veil and it's not like Defog and Taunt aren't viable in this tier. Even if we lost Luxe, Abomasnow is more than happy to pick up the slack on the Hail teams Vanilluxe currently manages, especially with how potentially lethal A. Slash can be under Hail even without Veil. So, while I know this opinion may be controversial, I don't feel Vanilluxe is broken in NU anymore, although it is still pretty damn good.

But wasn't Veil the deciding factor in the case of UU A. Ninetales, you may ask? Well, I was in support of keeping Alolatales banned, but I feel there were some key differences in that scenario.
  1. Alolatales also has the Fairy type, meaning that it could actually take some attacks without Veil thanks to actually having resistances.
  2. Alolatales has additional utility outside of just Veil, namely Encore and Hypnosis to create even more switch in opportunities for its teammates.
  3. Alolatales had a naturally great speed tier in UU, increasing its reliability in setting Veil; that is not true of NU Vanilluxe. This difference means that many mons in NU can simply take the cone out or Taunt it before it gets a chance to set Veil.
  4. UU just generally had a lot more speedy set up sweepers who abused Veil. Most of the sweepers in NU right now are on the slower side (most of the faster set-up sweepers are also on this slate), so it isn't as much of a burden to deal with them.
Again, I acknowledge I'm not the most accurate voice when it comes to NU, but this is my approximate ranking. Feel free to disagree if you want.
Broken
  1. Gallade
  2. Kingler
  3. Drampa
  4. Ribombee
  5. Sneasel
  6. Duraludon
  7. Toxicroak
  8. Vikavolt
  9. Vanilluxe
  10. Frosmoth
Not Broken
 
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The NU Council has voted! Here are the results of our second slate of the month. As always, keep in mind that these Pokemon can and likely will be revisited at a later date once the tier's power level rises with the next DLC arriving in November.

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:drampa: Drampa was banned by the NU Council due to it's insane wall-breaking potential and unlimited coverage. It's typing and respectable bulk allowed it to come in on many passive Pokemon and fire off ridiculous hits, while also having the flexibility of running moves such as Calm Mind and Roost which gave it impressive staying power on top of it's great defensive utility as a Grass, Fire, Water, Ghost, and Electric-type resist. Overall, the NU Council felt that Drampa was too powerful to remain in the tier in its current state.

:toxicroak: Toxicroak is our next ban, having been a frequent participant on our council slates for the entire generation. Ultimately the NU Council felt that it's Specially based sets (namely Nasty Plot and AoA) were incredibly difficult to deal with defensively and allowed it to break through every single counter it has in the tier due to it's unresisted coverage. This coupled with it's fantastic defensive utility and unpredictability (with other less seen sets such as SD and Scarf) allowed it to shine against every play-style in the tier, and restrict teambuilding immensely.

:vikavolt: Vikavolt was banned for much of the same reasons it was previously banned. It's incredibly powerful and able to break through almost everything with its STAB attacks alone, while also having just enough speed to pull off a deadly Agility set or simply outrun most defensive pivots in the tier. It also sports a unique typing with solid bulk and reliable recovery, which allowed it to stomach many neutral hits and wreak havoc on teams of any playstyle.

And that concludes this weeks NU Council vote. Tagging Marty and The Immortal to ban Drampa, Toxicroak, and Vikavolt from the NU tier as soon as possible, thank you as always.

Our next council slate is planned for the final week of the month, so until then feel free to discuss the tier in this post-ban meta, and let us know what you think has changed, what you like, and what Pokemon are still on your radar. Enjoy!
 
I voted ban on four Pokemon: Drampa, Vikavolt, Toxicroak, and Duraludon. Here is why:

:Drampa: is, in my eyes, the single most broken Pokemon in the metagame of last week (is there a better way to label this metagame? It is all coming at us so quickly between shifts and vote slates -- you get what I mean). I predominantly used Choice Specs sets, but I have seen Calm Mind sets or even utility sets with Heavy Duty Boots or a berry, too. Overall, it is impossible to handle defensively. There are a grand total of zero defensive counters and there are only a handful of situational checks. Even through resistances, Draco Meteor can do massive amounts of damage. if it hits you neutral, then you are almost definitely going to die from high amounts of health. Seeing as Drampa is not the slowest thing in the world once you invest in speed, the tier has various viable Sticky Web setters, and it is easy to force opponents on the defensive, getting it in, when it already has respectable natural bulk, is not particularly challenging. With a low barrier-to-entry and coverage to hit anything that could spell trouble (Hyper Voice for Clefairy, Ribombee, etc. and Fire Blast for Stunfisk-Galar, Silvally-Steel, etc.), it takes 1 correct turn or just 2-3 entries with the STAB moves being clicked for Drampa to make substantial amounts of progress. I understand the arguments that claim "Drampa can be pressured and your team can run resists, thus minimizing the offensive progress it can make" and I believe that a well constructed bulky-offense has a good chance of limiting Drampa to significant chip or a single kill, but this is not every team and it would make the tier super restrained if we were to allow for this type of dynamic to linger. Drampa was something I voted ban on without hesitation.

:Vikavolt: was the Pokemon I found second most problematic of the bunch. While I feel it packed a bit less of a punch than a boosted Drampa, which was much more possible to obtain due to the item-slot not being limited to Heavy Duty Boots always and access to Calm Mind, I still feel that Vikavolt was too strong for the metagame. It can run an Agility set, a Sticky Web set, or a specially offensive pivot set, but regardless of which you run, you will find people struggling to find their way around it in the long-haul (and longevity is not an issue with HDB + Roost). I found myself routinely getting Vikavolt in 5+ times throughout the course of the game and despite the surplus of specially defensive poisons and pivots, there was still not much standing in the way of Vikavolt. Are there checks and counters? Yes, but not all are durable and the pool is still ridiculously limited. Vikavolt has had no place in NU this generation in the past and this remains the case for the same reasons in the present.

:Toxicroak: has been broken for a few months now probably. I am glad we kept it around because we ended up retesting things anyway, but my stance remains the same. I alluded to it in a post in the prior thread, but Toxicroak has had insufficient counterplay in the metagame for a while, in my opinion. I thought it might get overwhelmed by the new drops and for a few days this seemed to be the case, but then a flip-switched and everyone remembered that Toxicroak was still prevalent in the metagame. Special sets in particular are devastating to face. Be it All-out-Attacker (4a with LO or Specs) or even Nasty Plot, the metagame was forced to shift promptly to people spamming specially defensive poison types and they were not even sufficient in the long haul sometimes. Do I believe Toxicroak could remain in NU while the metagame would be playable? Yes, I think we have had a good metagame leading up to the drops and it is not the most uncompetitive option due to some trends being carved out specifically around it, but it being removed opens up teambuilding a lot, removes a lot of defensive guesswork when using bulky-offense, and also validates a lot of Pokemon that remained in its shadow as offensive presences. Not all of these are necessarily reasons to ban it, but they do give me hope for the future metagame now that Toxicroak is gone. As for reasons to ban it specifically, I did not feel we had a large enough pool of counterplay defensively and I also felt revenge killing could be a chore ever since Silvally became a bit less mandatory. Some of the new drops helped with the latter at least, but even then there are few pivots that can handle it consistently. Versatility helps, too, but I feel the versatility argument is only as strong as it is due to how oppressive the special sets are on Toxicroak.

:Duraludon: is probably my "hot take" ban vote of the bunch. I realize this was not a popular opinion and I also realize some people are going as far as saying it is not living up to their expectations. To this I say: that's on you. Duraludon is a Steel type, but you cannot apply your conventional Steel type defensive metrics to it. Same goes for the Dragon typing. Sure, it does have some resistances canceled out that suck for it, especially when it is so frail on the special end. I get this and I also realize that it makes it much more possible to revenge kill, especially with things like Scarf Toxicroak now out of the picture. What I do not get is how people can play around it defensively in the long haul. Stunfisk-G is a great Pokemon and perhaps one of the premier answers, but even if is 1-2 Body Press away from being in trouble, which is important seeing as it cannot even OHKO Duraludon. Beyond this, not many Pokemon like eating the Draco Meteor + Flash Cannon STAB combination. It may not be as strong as Drampa or Exeggutor-Alola, but it is far faster and it can pivot in to many Pokemon on the physical end if you time things properly. Duraludon is accessible enough to leave its mark on the game and that is one ridiculously painful mark. I do not understand why people are not more worried about this Pokemon. Preparing for it is a pain and it is not something you can ignore and get away with without facing significant consequence due to the speed tier it has. We got it right with the two other Dragons because they nuked things without as much of a barrier. Duraludon is framed in a very different light and I get why it may be more difficult to replicate the results of those with it, but it is a different Pokemon that takes a different path to find an eerily similar result -- breaking the SS NU metagame. Are there checks? Yes, a handful. Are there counters? No, not by definition. Is it the most accessible Pokemon? No, but it can get in on at least a semi-consistent basis without having to bend over backwards. I feel like Duraludon remaining in the tier will end up either causing restrictions in developing teambuilding restrictions, but ultimately turning out ok as most metagames nowadays tend to have some driving force(s) of centralization or people will catch-on to the offensive presence it brings to the table surpassing the issues it may have defensively and then it will be back come next vote.

---

:Ribombee: is something I feel a lot of people are overrated because it is fast, Heavy Duty Boots are great, and it has coverage for Poison types. I get that it has a ton going for it, but between Silvally-Steel, Stunfisk-Galar, the fact that it is a literal glass cannon, and its lack of OHKO prowess, I cannot get around to calling it broken now. I want to try Quiver Dance sets and maybe tinker with the last moves on the more offensively geared sets besides that, but my current opinion is that it is more "very good, A+/S rank threat" than it is "broken".

:Sneasel: is the one Pokemon I lack much firsthand experience with. I found it suffocated in my brief firsthand experiences -- it is very frail and it has a mediocre defensive typing after all, but I did not feel confident enough to say this would be enough to keep it unbanned. However, I also did not see a ton of evidence to ban it personally either. Without the most accessibility, I feel like it really needed a bit more firepower to prove problematic. I do recognize that I have not made the best use of it thus far and with the right teammates and synergy, perhaps it can get in more, make more progress, and break the tier as it has in the past. I am willing to change my mind on this in the near future and will be sure to make an effort to improve my knowledge in this area.

Nothing else is on my personal radar. Kingler is a great Pokemon, but it is frail and very easy to check/limit with all sorts of common options I feel. Ice Cream I want to use more and I worry that once the tier settles, it will prove problematic. However, right now it is contained nicely by the pace of the tier and some specific defensive presences such as Silvally-Steel. Let's see where it is in a few weeks/months. Frosmoth is a Pokemon I feel is more cheesy than the others, but the upside does not warrant a ban at this time. And Gallade is just...not broken. Great addition to the tier that I feel has counterplay on both ends.
 
:drampa: :vikavolt: (covering both here)
In my eyes, the Drampa ban was a very weird one.

People cite the difficulty of switching into Choice Specs sets and how Calm Mind sets tore through defensive teams as the two general arguments for it, with other contributing factors being its great defensive utility and options like Defog, Roost, and hell Glare as other options that need to be taken into account.

Banning slow wallbreakers is always challenging in my eyes because of how clear cut general counterplay will be to them. Typically, there will be a dearth of defensive counterplay in favor of significant offensive counterplay, i.e. you can't switch into the threat at hand but can easily revenge kill it or pressure it offensively and thus prevent it from making significant progress. Consider Mega Camerupt last generation. This was a Pokemon that quite literally had no reliable defensive counterplay. Even foes like Vaporeon and Assault Vest Slowking were under certain conditions at risk of being 2HKOed by Earth Power, with Vaporeon having to win a coinflip to get a successful Wish off to remain a capable answer later on. We ended up keeping it banned because despite there being ways to offensively revenge kill it, its overall bulk and power were too great.

I think a good comparison for Drampa this generation is Alolan Exeggutor. They are both slow Dragon-type wallbreakers that have a good amount of defensive utility, which eases its ability to switch in. So... why did I view Alolan Exeggutor (and Vikavolt, for what it's worth) as problematic but not Drampa? Two main reasons: 1) Alolan Exeggutor's STAB moves are harder to deal with than Drampa's, and 2) counterplay to Alolan Exeggutor is less simple.

Alolan Exeggutor had the benefit of two insane nukes for STAB moves: Leaf Storm and Draco Meteor. Even with resistant Pokemon, this simply meant there was even less need to predict because you could so easily overwhelm these Dragon-type checks without even predicting really. I'd even say the option for neutral damage on Galarian Stunfisk without using Flamethrower is pretty convenient because it makes pivoting around the Pokemon even harder. Compare this to Drampa, and yeah you can still make heavy progress with spamming STAB Draco Meteor and Hyper Voice, but not as easily. Furthermore: both of Drampa's STAB moves have immunities. This is a big reason why Choice Specs sets aren't as potent on Drampa as they are on Alolan Exeggutor. If your opponent does make those hard reads each time, you're so much more vulnerable to being put in bad positions because you can't guarantee progress with Drampa like you could with Alolan Exeggutor. This issue had been worsened as this metagame developed further with Protect getting used a lot more frequently on Pokemon to see what Drampa would lock itself into. Sure, non-Choice Specs sets still hit like a bitch, but they are 1000% manageable.

I also want to talk about counterplay to these two Pokemon, and why I think Alolan Exeggutor was much more clearly broken than Drampa. I think a big selling point that was ignored with Alolan Exeggutor was Trick Room. I talked about how offensive counterplay is generally the more consistent way to deal with these slow wallbreakers because they're just really bad at ceding momentum to the foe. Well, Trick Room made Alolan Exeggutor really hard to manage on either end! Yeah, there were different checks to such sets---certain defensive Pokemon like Clefairy fared better against these sets---but overall I viewed this interaction between Choice Specs and Trick Room sets really negative for the tier because of how it flipped dealing with Alolan Exeggutor upside-down. Compare this to say, Calm Mind Drampa, something that people argued pushed Drampa further over the edge really badly because of what it did to defensive Pokemon. I... don't really agree. At least, I don't think it changed much about dealing with Drampa, and this mostly has to do with my philosophy on dealing with slow wallbreakers. Passive counterplay is really easy to punish; Pokemon like Clefairy and Galarian Stunfisk can only do so much to threaten what they're switching into (unless they can force a lot of damage onto the foe, which usually isn't the case). To put it simply: I don't think these Pokemon were really ever that great of counterplay to begin with outside of pivoting into Draco Meteor (Hyper Voice too in the latter's case) as a way to slightly disrupt momentum for the opponent. Drampa, regardless of set, had insane potential to get by passive checks as all stood; I think Calm Mind sets just really solidified that these Pokemon are not consistent options in general. While Alolan Exeggutor was able to trade a minor amount of defensive Pokemon matchups for SEVERAL favorable offensive Pokemon matchups, Drampa really had no way to significantly shrink the pool of options that checked it.

Vikavolt deserves some mention here too in terms of another slow wallbreaker that I viewed as problematic. It has a lot of similar traits to Alolan Exeggutor and Drampa in that beyond specially defensive Togedemaru, there really wasn't great long-term defensive counterplay to it, and it also had a pretty decent time getting into battle because of Levitate and typing + longevity via Roost and Heavy-Duty Boots. I view in the same light as Alolan Exeggutor in that Vikavolt has Agility and Sticky Web to trivialize a lot of matchups, its typing is a lot better than Drampa's and makes it harder to deal with offensively in general, and pivoting around it is really punishing because of Electric + Bug + Grass coverage being pretty great and Special Defense drops just being insulting.

:duraludon:
I think Finchinator raises good points about Duraludon in that its still strong as hell a la Drampa and has the benefit of a good Speed tier. Its Draco Meteor is similarly punishing, and Flash Cannon just removes Fairy-types as defensive counterplay. And yet, I have consistently found Duraludon underwhelming. I think the defensive issues it has are significant; being a Steel-type that doesn't handle Fairy-types at all (literally OHKOed by Choice Specs Whimsicott...) is awful in this metagame. As a result, teambuilding just doesn't feel very rewarding much of the time when using Duraludon. Every time I have tried to justify Choice Specs Duraludon on a team, I always just couldn't pass the barrier of "why am I not just using Drampa?" I think it's a really reasonable thing to ask too (at least, it was pre-Drampa ban). Duraludon brings NONE of the defensive traits Drampa did. It doesn't like Ninetales; it doesn't like Ghost-types; it just... doesn't do a whole lot outside of wallbreak. Yeah, it's a great wallbreaker---Draco Meteor can get through Galarian Stunfisk with Knock Off and entry hazards support fairly reliably---but it just offers so little anywhere else, and for me that is a negative. I also do think Body Press is being oversold pretty hard; it does... 3% more to most Draco Meteor switch-ins than Draco Meteor. Yeah, you're not forced out as quickly, but I don't think chip damage from Body Press is much of a boon at all. Maybe without Drampa being in the tier Duraludon will feel more rewarding to build with, but I haven't felt its presence in the tier to be worth worrying about all too much because counterplay to it seems much more linear and reliable than counterplay to some of the other wallbreakers we have or had.

:ninetales:
I don't think Ninetales is broken, but I do think it warrants a LOT more attention, especially with the Drampa ban. It was already sort of annoying at times to deal with because some of the common fast Pokemon used---Ribombee and Whimsicott are really coming to mind here---can't actually beat it, and the Drampa and Toxicroak bans further remove options for counterplay. Fire + Grass + Ground coverage is quite nice, and Ninetales doesn't have competition at all for its slot. I definitely recommend trying it out more if you haven't yet.
 
I want to start the past saying thanks the council for finally banning broken ass toxicroak (better late than never), aswell as thanking for banning both drampa and vikkavolt which were so problematic and centralizing. With this said, i'll give my thoughts on how i see the current metagame. I believe that now that we almost settled the big problem produced by the september shift, the tier is back to look balanced which is awesome.

Voted pokemons

:gallade: - I'll start with my "hot take" here but i can understand why sjneider voted ban on this pokemon, the little times i saw it on the field it was the choice scarf set which is ok but is not as good as SD sets. Thanks to an amazing coverage, this pokemon can handle pretty much all its counters with not many difficulties, both stabs pair so well to cover each other and then you have knock off to help vs those annoying pokemon that may avoid a 2 ohko thanks to its item (mainly clef and quagsire). I understand why people are eager on this to be banned tho, its speed being mediocre, persian alola still existing (altho its usage decreased a lot after whimsicott and ribombee came into the tier), the already mentioned fairies being pretty much every where and having several counters such as ninjask and sneasel faster than it keeps it on check. But with good synergy and the right teammates this pokemon is on the edge to be looked as problematic at least.

:frosmoth: - This is the only pokemon that got me confused of seeing in the voting slate. Basing on my experience, this pokemon either does pretty much anything or it gets a superb mu and outright sweeps (spoiler i'm yet to see the latter happen). More of a cheesy pokemon than an actual threat, the moth is rather mediocre than broken to me, having no access to recovery filled with bad coverage makes it bulk not enough to call it close to problematic to me. There are so many steels running around and we have to mention that building with this mon is not as easy as it can happen with others that fullfill a similar role as it needs more support. I'm open to being proved wrong on this one but i just don't see it.

:duraludon: - As finch said in his post, idg why people are underating this pokemon, duraludon is by no means worst than the other 2 dragons that were already banned. Having bad bulk compensates with how hard it hits, and not having fire coverage for the steels doesn't really matter because it has body press, in adittion he can compress the rocker role aswell which makes teambuilding easier and last but not less important it has a quite alright speed tier. I believe this pokemon should or will get banned earlier than later. Putting how frail this pokemon can be defensively as an argument to say that its not broken is just not enough.

:sneasel: - Despite his bad defensive stats i find sneasel to be so problematic, the lack of actual checks and it being so fast makes it so hard to deal with. I find myself deleting a lot of teams while building because i get to think "this is dropped by sneasel in preview". I think that unless something big happens or we get some very good check to this in the near future sneasel should get banned since it can break teams so easily. Having 2 fairies that are faster, scarfers and ninjask only as the rk options when a lot of those dislike ice shard is not good.

Kingler is obviusly not broken and i 100% agree with what finch saod about ribombee so i'm not going to repeat his words.

Other pokemons i want to talk about
:ninetales: - Ninetales has been to me broken the second it dropped l, but let me explain why do i think this. I understand that people thought that not having drought would make ninetales okey but it's not the case and drampa (which tbh was the only real counter) was fine but it really didn't stopped ninetales that much it was just making it not outright sweep since you were eventually killing the drampa and despite there being faster things that can revenge kill tales but that's easily avoided with good teammates that support it well. Now we lost the one real counter and find ourselves on a spot where NP ninetales is pretty much unstoppable, having fire+grass+ground coverage is just to good. There's no solid way of pressuring ninetales out and it can even stomach some attacks such as lanturn or jellicent scald and stunfisk eq and rocks/spikes won't do shit to it thx to hdb. I would like people to try this out more because i really think this should be explored as a possible future banned mon.

:weezing: - Okey so i already know i'm gettinghated for this one but just as it happened in sm people are overating weezing again. While its definetly a good pokemon that adds lots of utility to teams. Is not as spammable and good as people think it is, it only really works as a semi physical sponge (i say semi because pokemons such as silvally with sub sets or sneasel end up winning 1v1),on the special end you'll end up being useless. And is not as in sm where you could argue that this pokemon was key to check the fighting types; here the fighting types we have pretty much 1v1 weezing as they have the coverage they need for it. Again i will mention that i'm not calling this pokemon bad it definetly has is good things but i just wanted to point this out.

:poliwrath: - I feel like people has forgotten that this is the one and only real check to sneasel, wrath has an amazing role compression being a water inmunity a sneasel check and counter and also a very good pokemon if you want to use some offensive sets. It can easily break throught all the possible counters it has with the converqge it has. Ofc it's not broken but it can be quite a threat.

:ninjask: - I still remember how ninjask got called bad before summer lol. And a couple months later here we are having king ninjask dominating the tier and being pretty much everywhere, this pokemon has no competition at all and will keep to be a top tier pokemon it just adds so many good things to teams.
 
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i found the sneasel counter
:ss/rhydon:
Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 88 HP / 168 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Toxic

252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 88 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 86-101 (23 - 27%) -- 39.2% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 88 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 151-179 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 88 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 117-140 (31.3 - 37.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 88 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 70-86 (18.7 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO


168+ Atk Rhydon Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasel: 410-486 (163.3 - 193.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
168+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasel: 273-322 (108.7 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 88 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 210-258 (56.3 - 69.1%) -- approx. 2HKO
You sure about that?
Also, no Rest=Gets worn down.
Also both calc are bad bc Sneasel run CB or HDB..
Also if Rhydon switch in a knock off, he get KO by wathever STAB of Sneasel
Yeah I was wondering about that lol. I just thought I'd use the same item as him.
252+ Atk Choice Band Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 88 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 170-204 (45.5 - 54.6%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO
Clearly a solid counter.
 
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252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 88 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 210-258 (56.3 - 69.1%) -- approx. 2HKO
You sure about that?
Also, no Rest=Gets worn down.

i found the sneasel counter
:ss/rhydon:
Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 88 HP / 168 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Toxic

252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 88 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 86-101 (23 - 27%) -- 39.2% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 88 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 151-179 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 88 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 117-140 (31.3 - 37.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 88 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 70-86 (18.7 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO


168+ Atk Rhydon Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasel: 410-486 (163.3 - 193.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
168+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasel: 273-322 (108.7 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also both calc are bad bc Sneasel run CB or HDB..
Also if Rhydon switch in a knock off, he get KO by wathever STAB of Sneasel
 
Great round of bans. As always, great job to the council for making efficient and great decisions when it comes to tiering as well as those who shared their opinions in this thread. Might as well talk about the mons that were voted on and share my thoughts on the decisions (long paragraph incoming)

Vikavolt was arguably the most banworthy of those being voted on. I was surprised it didn't get banned last slate. Despite being slow, it's an absolute nuke of a wallbreaker, tearing the tier apart with it's stabs+energy ball. It can either adopt webs or agility in it's last slot, slowing the enemy team down or boosting itself. Glad to see it gone. Next up is Drampa, who isn't surprising all that much. While it has strong stabs, it's low speed did leave it to be killed by many strong threats. Still, its strong attacks+ boosting moves with calm mind, recovery with roost, and coverage with tbolt and flamethrower lets me understand why it got the boot. Last of the bans were toxicroak, as it was finally banned after being a central part of NU for so long. new drops made it more manageable, but also made it stronger as it could also beat many of these drops and take advantage to get many boosts. All in all, these bans were all very good and i believe that NU will be better after these bans.

As for the mons that stayed, I'll talk about whether they should be voted on in the future or not. Kingler, vanilluxe, gallade, and even frosmoth i don't believe should be voted on anymore. Kingler, vanilluxe, and gallade i was surprised to even see on the voting slate, they're both solid parts of the game and have their own flaws, so none of them should really be up for debate considering how little votes they had from these shifts and i think they'll be fine. Frosmoth is more cheese than broken. While it can sweep after some boosts, it's low speed and crappy defensive typing leave it vulnerable to many mons like duraludon, magneton, ninetales, rapidash, miltank, steelvally, and togedemaru. Frosmoth I feel will keep being nominated for the slate but wouldn;t get banned at all so stop nomming it. Duraludon is also very manageable, while it is fast, no way to hit steels, waters like gastro or lanturn, and piss poor spDef means its not too hard to kill. The last 2 are ribombee and sneasel, which survived this voting slate barely. I think ribombee is overhyped, it cant hit steels and finds a hard time to set up. Like others have said above, i find it to be an A+/S pokemon rather than broken. Sneasel is mixed for me. I can understand why others find it banworthy, strong stabs like knock off and triple axel and a great speed tier is very threatening but for me its poor defenses have been very underwhelming for me.

Overall, here are my thoughts on the voting slate. In my opinion, most of the stuff that was on the slate shouldn't be on the slate again as most people think they are manageable (kingler, gallade, vanilluxe, frosmoth, duraludon) while others like ribombee and sneasel should be looked into more, even if i don't consider them banworthy that much
 
Thoughts on bans and mons that should be banned/voted on.
Starting with :drampa:
As Rabia said in his video, big numbers and STAB on big numered move. Enough said.

:vikavolt: I'm neutral towards it because I havent seen it used much and have only used it on one team. I can say, however, non-specs Volt Switch does quite a lot to pretty much everything. So Specs also makes it have big numbers.

:Toxicroak: Should not have been banned. This mon got a few new checks in September namely Ribombee, Whimsicott, Mudsdale, and Jellicent. The former two outspeed it and with specs can OHKO it with a STAB Moonblast. The latter two can switch into it and often force it out if it has not yet set up. This mon felt weaker with these shifts and I think some people see it as OP without looking at everything that can check/counter it.

Now onto things that are banworthy in my opinion.
First is :frosmoth: This thing can sweep the entire tier bar like 7 Pokemon with one-to-two Quiver Dances. It can also switch into Special move users like Lanturn, Clawitzer, Decidueye, etc. without needing to recover as it can setup one QD then click buttons. More on this with the next section.

:ribombee: Specs Ribombee also can sweep a lot of the tier. Currently, we do not have many Special Tanks/Walls that can eat Moonblast after Moonblast (same goes with aforementioned Frosmoth). Its speed tier is also insane as it is the fourth fastest mon in the tier. HDB sets are also nice as they can set up QD and eventually do more damage than specs. If a Frosmoth or Ribombee sets up, its game over. You have to run a Steel type just so those two cannot be allowed to set up and sweep. Not even Toxicroak was this overpowered.

:mudsdale: This is gonna be a controversial one. Mudsdale is definetly a strong Physical wall right now. Its main hold-back is a lack of recovery, but it can just run Leftovers and Protect for 16% in 2 turns. This horse can eat a Triple Axel from CB Sneasel amazingly because of its ability. Not to mention with its ability it can have a powerful Body Press. Mudsdale can also run Special Defensive sets that still get the benefit of Stamina and is an all around tank that eats a lot of damage. Sure, there are Water and Grass typed Pokemon in the tier that can handle it in 2 turns, but it can switch out into a Jellicent and Miltank respectively. It also gets Stealth Rock which is a nice bonus to its viability, making it even stronger.

Edit: I wanna add this: I am by no means a good NU player. However, the 2 Bugs I want banned gave me a huge boost on ladder to be right around top 500. That shows the Bugs just dominate the tier with little counter play.
 
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So yeah, I feel ninetales is pretty darn underwhelming.

81 special attack just feels pretty pathetic. Even with nasty plot, it doesnt do enough damage. Sure, its coverage is nice, but it doesnt have enough special attack to use it properly.
 
Here's what I feel about the slate, and what I think should be beaned.
:drampa: Drampa: Why didnt we do this earlier? Drampa's perfect coverage in fire/normal/dragon, a massive 135 base special attack, further boosted by Berserk, and it's most common set being specs, makes it really hard to find checks.
:duraludon: Duraludon: I really havent seen much of Duraludon, so I really havent developed an opinion of it.
:frosmoth: Frosmoth: This thing is underestimated as frick. Not banworthy doe
:gallade: Gallade: Same with Gallade, I really dont have an opinion on it.
:kingler: Kingler: I've been advocating for this crab's unbanning for a while now, and it looks like it will be healthy.
:ribombee: Ribombee: The literal definition of a glass cannon. Probably might be banworthy in the future.
:sneasel: Sneasel: Although Sneasel can 2hko pretty much anything in the tier, it's too frail to be that effective of a sweeper.
:toxicroak: Toxicroak: No explanation is needed as to why this thing shouldve been banned.
 
I agree on the Drampa and Vikavolt ban, Toxicroak ban was quite surprising but its w.e; But Ninetales is just threatening to a lot of teams considering Drampa was its ultimate check; yes Toxicing it with Rapidash/Miltank/Vibrava/etc despite its miss chance but I don't feel like its healthy , maybe how it performs during tours can give a better decision but eh
 
Hello its me, but who cares
So yeah, I feel ninetales is pretty darn underwhelming.

81 special attack just feels pretty pathetic. Even with nasty plot, it doesnt do enough damage. Sure, its coverage is nice, but it doesnt have enough special attack to use it properly.
:ss/Ninetales:
First I want to respond to this post and disagree with it because I think this is far from true.
While I do have to admit that 81 SpA doesnt look so good, in combination with Nasty Plot and fire-grass(-ground) coverage it is a breaker/cleaner you have to prepare for or otherwise will be demolished with ease. I think when people say that Ninetales is underwhelming they thing every Ninetales sets up Nasty Plot on the turn they switch into their Wishiwashi or smt and either take a huge hit and KO it back or scare it out and repeat at another point of the battle. But that often isnt the case. With access to its ok bulk and access to Substitute Ninetales can force damage on pokemon and gets the chip damage it needs. Ninetales also fills a really powerful niche being an offensive fire type we all desperately looked for. I know Rapidash also fills that roll but it makes a huge difference that Ninetales is specially offensive and now with both roaming arround usual checks like Wishiwashi have to decide what they want to invest in (physdef or spdef). Also, with the explosive rise of fairy and steel types, especially Silvally-Steel which most of the time cant really hit Ninetales, it gets a lot of opportunities to fire off its attacks.
Overall I think this mon is far from underwhelming and in fact really good. Let me know if you think otherwise.


I actually want to bring up two PU mons that may have a niche and seem to not be fully discovered:
#1: :ss/Appletun:
Do you remember this? Maybe from early to mid NU but after Toxicroak became the god of NU, grass types really took of in usefulness. After the latest shift, Exeggutor-Alola outclassed it in every way. With the current state of NU, I think this can have a legit niche as a Choice Specs user or defensive wall. With its ability Thicc Fat, it it one of if not the best Ninetales answers we have. Ninetales can hit it with nothing bar Toxic or Hyper Beam to hit for at least neutral damage (there are some other moves like Shadow Ball but you get the drift, nothing that would be really viable outside of the face to face againt Appletun). In return, Appletun has a respectable SpA stat of 100 and access to Draco Meteor which can return the table and hit like a truck. It also likes the increase of defensive water and ground types it can take on.
As a defensive grass type it has competition in Eldegoss. Both have its benefits but from what I heard most people dont like Eldegoss atm because it is to passive. Even if you go a more defensive set on Appletun (e.g. smth like Apple Acid/Recover/Dragon Pulse/Leech Seed) its signatur move Apple Acid allows it to be really offensive, lowering the SpDef stat of the opposing pokemon 100% of the time. While it also is another mon that "gets walled by steel types" it has almost the same tools as Duraludon to bypass these issues. It has access to Iron Defense and Body Press as well as Earthquake. Dont get me wrong tho, I dont think Appletun is a meta defining pokemon or anything. It is more of a underrated/surprise pick that can have its use. And it also has it flaws, especially its speed stat, which is only base 30. That leaves it outrun my a majority of the tier meaning it has to take a hit before getting one of itself. It really shines against slower bulkier teams.
Feel free to let me know what you think about this mon!

#2: :ss/Mawile:
This is for sure a niche pick and I know that. But with how good Sneasel is atm its niche is ok to mention. It is with Poliwrath the best Sneasel counter we have. It resists both of Sneasel's STABs and threatens it back with a super effective attack (steel and fairy). It also takes nothing from Low Kick since it is really light. It sucks that Intimidate doesnt work against Sneasel but it lets Mawile check other physical threats like Ninjask pretty reliable while. Its typing is arguably one of the best in the game but sadly its stats are...mediocre at best. It really needs special defensive support, especially with all the special breakers like Ribombee in the tier which is kinda upsetting. It also lacks reliable recovery and only got either Leftovers which takes away the nice chip damage Rocky Helmet provides or the exploitable Pain Split which does work pretty ok on it because of its low HP stat. It does have some cool utility options in Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Taunt, Toxic and the mentioned Pain Split.
Overall, Mawile really relies on its Intimidate ability to weaken the things it switches in and special moves it cant take at all. Still an interessting pick in my opinion and maybe worth trying out.
Let me know what you think about this - I'd like to discuss in here about other mons you may feel are underrated/worth mentioning.
 
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I would like to second Corthius' shoutout for Appletun. I've been using it on Doublebees. Right now, offensive answers to Ninetales are a little bit thin considering that the usual checks (water types, etc) all fall to Ninetales' coverage options. Drampa is out of the picture now, and Silvally-Dragon is hard to justify when you really want to run Silvally-Steel.

Enter Appletun, who, even as an offensive set, defeats Ninetales pretty well:

+2 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Appletun: 157-186 (37 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Appletun Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 292-344 (101.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

+2 252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Appletun: 196-232 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


(Basically, in order to 2HKO a bulky offense Appletun, Ninetales needs time to click Nasty Plot twice.)
* It's a bit weaker, but Appletun can also opt to use Dragon Pulse if they're worried about Substitute Ninetales.

In addition to filling this valuable niche as [Dragon that answers Fire types reliably], Appletun is also a solid offensive Dragon in its own right. Apple Acid means that opposing fatmons trying to wall you will be in for a rude awakening as their SpDEF drops. Specially Defensive fairies like Aromatisse are put in a tough spot after trying to switch into Apple Acid, since they have to click Moonblast (instead of Wish!) or risk being quashed by repeated Apple Acids. Clefairy doesn't even have the luxury of threatening a return 2HKO.

Basically, you could say that Appletun is a viable stallbreaker because it greatly pressures opponents that want to use their recovery moves, since it's pointless in the face of Apple Acid.

Also, Appletun makes a pretty nice lure for certain Pokemon. A Roseli Berry or Yache Berry lets it eat a hit from the likes of Ribombee or Sneasel, and it can strike back with whatever.

You can go Roseli and eat the hit from Ribombee:
Basic: 20 Atk Appletun Gyro Ball (99 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ribombee: 192-226 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

... or you could just dong Ribombee on its supposed 'safe switch'
lmao min speed: 0 Atk Appletun Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ribombee: 282-334 (108 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I don't think I need to demonstrate any calcs for Sneasel, right? Eat a Yache hit, drop a draco.

I also haven't even mentioned the hilarious memery that can commence thanks to Appletun's access to Ripen (Starf Berry sets, anyone?) along with Recycle and Recover together.

SUMMARY:
Appletun is a solid offensive check to Fire types. Recover means that Appletun is also a very reliable switch-in.
Appletun;s pool of counters is limited when factoring in Apple Acid
Appletun deters recovery moves with Apple Acid.
Nice lure sets for offensive threats like Ribombee and Sneasel
Meme Pokemon
 
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SUMMARY:
Appletun is a solid offensive check to Fire types. Recover means that Appletun is also a very reliable switch-in.
Appletun;s pool of counters is limited when factoring in Apple Acid
Appletun deters recovery moves with Apple Acid.
Nice lure sets for offensive threats like Ribombee and Sneasel
Meme Pokemon
Eaten by Ninjask with is good for you..
Leech Seed also provide nice chip in a more defensive set...
 
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