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out of all the potential suspects I feel we need to vote on Jynx soonest; as it is the closest to broken in this tier.
Even before Jynx is set out she has already put your team at a disadvantage. Unless you're running Magmortar you will lose something to sleep; and even Magmortar can't defeat Jynx 100% of the time(especially with Fire Blast). On top of that Jynx can easily run Psyshock or Focus Blast and run through the normal "stops' to her. As Steamroll said, it is hard to judge whether Jynx is runnong one of these coverage moves before it's to late. And whenever Jynx switches in you have to choose between taking the sleep and letting it set up, one false move and its basically over. Jynx has also been shown to be effective against nearly every playstyle(except for high speed physical hyper offense), as stall teams struggle to take on the mono attacker, and other styles tend to fall to either or, depending on team choices. So essentially no matter what you do you will always be Jynx weak. That is why I want to suspect Jynx, it is to effective against to many playstyles in this meta.
Ironically, I've ran a team with every suspect listed here in the recent meta.
Sun teams have been really underwhelming. If Mesprit was still around, I would think that these teams could probably have a better chance (especially with Memento). However, all of the suspects (Charizard / Sawsbuck) have been proven to be manageable even under the sun.
Braviary is powerful, but it's still questionable for me to assume if it should be a suspect or not. I have been wanting to try a Sub + 3 Attacks set for a while though, since so many of the Braviarys out there are scarfed/banded.
Jynx is probably the only Pokemon out of all of these that I would consider to be broken. Jynx is just way too versatile in this metagame, and although I'm not sure if it should be banned, it should definitely be the main suspect for this round.
I'm saying no to Braviary as a suspect. The Choice Band set is too slow and too high-maintenance for this meta, and is nowhere near broken, despite its huge damage output.
I also agree with Jynx being a suspect. Lovely Kiss / Substitute can be extremely hard to play around, and if she is running coverage, her list of checks changes and shortens drastically.
o_O Jynx? Jynx is no where neeeeear broken. Its frail as fuck, meaning it cannot switch in risk free on anything besides a water move, with its awful typing and piss poor defenses. Meaning you either have to predict a water move, (Fun fact most water types wall Jynx), come in on something scary as it sets up (meaning there's a chance that you die if your opponent predicts), or, more likely, let something die before you can come in. Being super frail also means she cannot take any hits AFTER she gets in, meaning you have to have Scarfers gone, priority gone, stuff thats faster than you gone. (Jynx is slow too, outsped by Swellow, Charizard, Cinccino, Raichu, Cryogonal, Tauros, all scarfers etc and then has to risk a tie with stuff like Haunter and Sawsbuck). jynx's nonexistant bulk is futher compounded by her weakness to Stealth Rocks, Pursuit (Seriously, if you're having trouble with Jynx just stick Pursuit on LO Tauros or Swellow and have fun).
Furthermore, Jynx can't hurt a fly, unless she sets up, with Nasty Plot. Without any bulk, the only thing you're setting up on is choice locked water moves, or trying to scare out something like Tangela, or she can rely on Lovely Kiss, with its 75% accuracy. Bascially, every time Jynx goes for a sweep, shes got to sacrifice something to get in, gamble to set up (Tangela can just as easily stay in an cripple you with Stun spore/take out half your health with Giga Drain, or your Lovely Kiss could miss [I can't tell you how many times Lovely kiss has missed and Absol just shits on her with Night Slash].), and then you're very prone to revenge killing.
Jynx has another problem then, it has horrible 4mss. She can't run Lovely Kiss/Substitute/Ice Beam/Nasty Plot/Focus Blast/Psyshock. She either has to sacrifice some security while setting up, or some coverage. With only Ice Beam, she gets walled pretty hard by common stuff, Miltank, Camerupt, Cryognal, every bulky water in the tier. Without Psyshock she crumples to regular special walls. Without Subsitute, I can just sac something and revenge with my Swellow, Scarf Sawk, Charizard, or something.
Tl;dr: Jynx can't switch in, is Pursuit weak, is slow, is weak before Nasty Plot, Lovely Kiss has accuracy issues, she has moveslot issues, which can make her easy to wall, or have a hard time setting up.
Also I find it kinda funny how Raseri pointed out Fire Blast's Accuracy issues right after hyping Lovely Kiss.
Braviary is also a bad Swellow. More people need to use Swellow, that thing shits on 90% of the metagame, and combos absurdly with Gorebyss.
i ran a team with four quadpeds (four foorted animals i guess) including Samurott, Sawsbuck, Rapidash, and Tauros. this hyper offensive tam was great because they all hit from the same side of the attacking spectrum, weakeneing each other's counters and having great type synergies. (for example, sawsbuck beats alomomola which walls the other three, and samurott and rapidash beats tangela which walls the other two.) this kind of hyper offensive teams have been fun, but the other two pokemon choices are hard, since i need a rapid spinner in this meta and all of them suck.
i also ran a similar hypro offensive team involving 3-4 birds (CB braviary CB doudrio, Swellow) and that was very strong as they weakened each others counters.
I agree with Leman. I think Jynx is in the same boat as Sawsbuck, it's just a great Pokemon. Anyone relying on Lovely Kiss to set up knows what they're getting into. Jynx's Subs are going to be broken by anything that connects so it's only usable on a status move or Sucker Punch or a switch (plus the amount of Rock Blast users in the tier...). Then there's Nasty Plot which is essential to make it threatening. If you want coverage then you'll have to give up Lovely Kiss or Sub. Its coverage consists of Psyshock or Focus Blast. Psyshock allows it to beat special walls but gets walled by Steel types. Focus Blast is the better option of the two imo but it has 70% acc.
I think anyone using Jynx knows that they have a real wildcard on their hands. It's devastating if everything goes to plan but if something goes wrong then Jynx is so frail that it is likely to have waved bye bye too. Basically if you carry something decent that resists Ice, and you make sure there isn't a complete set up bait on your team (and boy will it have to be set up bait considering Jynx's defences) and a faster Pokemon then you're unlikely to have any problems with it imo.
o_O Jynx? Jynx is no where neeeeear broken. Its frail as fuck, meaning it cannot switch in risk free on anything besides a water move, with its awful typing and piss poor defenses. Meaning you either have to predict a water move, (Fun fact most water types wall Jynx), come in on something scary as it sets up (meaning there's a chance that you die if your opponent predicts), or, more likely, let something die before you can come in. Being super frail also means she cannot take any hits AFTER she gets in, meaning you have to have Scarfers gone, priority gone, stuff thats faster than you gone. (Jynx is slow too, outsped by Swellow, Charizard, Cinccino, Raichu, Cryogonal, Tauros, all scarfers etc and then has to risk a tie with stuff like Haunter and Sawsbuck). jynx's nonexistant bulk is futher compounded by her weakness to Stealth Rocks, Pursuit (Seriously, if you're having trouble with Jynx just stick Pursuit on LO Tauros or Swellow and have fun).
Water types wall Jynx? How exactly? Water types are just setup fodders for subCM Jynx, or will lose to the LO 3 attacks set, as their best option is to Toxic it. Also, its special defense lets it to come in most Psychic types in the tier (Gardevoir/Grumpig/Psychic Hypno, unless Thunder Wave), most Ice types in the tier (Regice/Cryogonal mainly) and starting to set up on them. Some Jynx sets run Substitute to be able to deal with its frailty and it's inability to tank most attacks, which makes "sticking Pursuit on Tauros or Swellow" a not-so-reliable way to deal with it, since both of them will have problems tanking attacks from Jynx, and they can't switch in. Also, in that list, Raichu and Cryogonal can't kill it while they get KOd back, and all of those can't switch in at all into Jynx.
Furthermore, Jynx can't hurt a fly, unless she sets up, with Nasty Plot. Without any bulk, the only thing you're setting up on is choice locked water moves, or trying to scare out something like Tangela, or she can rely on Lovely Kiss, with its 75% accuracy. Bascially, every time Jynx goes for a sweep, shes got to sacrifice something to get in, gamble to set up (Tangela can just as easily stay in an cripple you with Stun spore/take out half your health with Giga Drain, or your Lovely Kiss could miss [I can't tell you how many times Lovely kiss has missed and Absol just shits on her with Night Slash].), and then you're very prone to revenge killing.
Yeah, hitting harder than Starmie with a better STAB move and amazing coverage = not being even able to hurt a fly. In what universe doesn't Jynx hit hard? STAB Ice Beam from that Special Attack will hurt everything that's not resistant or has very good special defense. Jynx doesn't even NEED TO setup to start hitting heavily. A simple set consisting of Lovely Kiss / Ice Beam / Psyshock / Focus Blast will dent almost anything in the tier. Also, it's not THAT frail on the special side, allowing Jynx to switch into a good amount of Special Attacks.
Jynx has another problem then, it has horrible 4mss. She can't run Lovely Kiss/Substitute/Ice Beam/Nasty Plot/Focus Blast/Psyshock. She either has to sacrifice some security while setting up, or some coverage. With only Ice Beam, she gets walled pretty hard by common stuff, Miltank, Camerupt, Cryognal, every bulky water in the tier. Without Psyshock she crumples to regular special walls. Without Subsitute, I can just sac something and revenge with my Swellow, Scarf Sawk, Charizard, or something.
Tl;dr: Jynx can't switch in, is Pursuit weak, is slow, is weak before Nasty Plot, Lovely Kiss has accuracy issues, she has moveslot issues, which can make her easy to wall, or have a hard time setting up.
I already addressed this point, also, the 4mss isn't that bad on Jynx. I mean, it really depends from what you want it to do. NP isn't a must, you can just run something like this:
Trust me, you'll have A LOT of problems facing this. If you are running something with Sucker Punch, it will lose unless Sleep Clause is already activated the 75% of the times (actually more since the Jynx can still switch out). It can switch out of priority users. I've always found NP Jynx quite underwhelming, so I haven't used it that much, but I guess I'd run NP + LK + Ice Beam + Psychic/Psyshock, although I'm not sure. If you want it to take a different approach, you could try the SubCM one with Ice Beam + LK to round off the set. This is "walled" only by things like Lapras. Metang and Walrein, and only Metang can fight back (+ Metang is terrible). Another approach no one else mentioned to run Jynx is a Choice one. Good speed, amazing Special Attack, 1 immunity, amazing coverage and access to Trick makes it a very effective user of a Choice Item, be it Specs or Scarf. Specs hits hard right off the bat, has access to Trick to cripple walls, and can eventually Lovely Kiss another thing that could potentially wall it. The scarf set outspeeds most common scarfers in the tier (Magmortar / Rotom-S for example), can OHKO all of them, and still has Trick / Lovely Kiss. The only thing that might make it not so viable it's the SR weakness, but a lot of Pokemon have that and still are top-tiers/in higher tiers, and it's possible to get rid of them/stop your opponent from setting them up.
How is Braviary a bad Swellow? They are different in basically everything bar the typing. In the first place, Braviary is bulkier and has access to Superpower, Swellow can't touch Rock types and Steel types, and it's OHKOd by every priority. Braviary is more of a wallbreaker, Swellow is more of a cleaner, why are you comparing them? Aside from the fact that Braviary hits way harder
My opinion on Jynx? Broken (I think I already stated that in the logs in the pastebins, but I guess writing a little organic summary doesn't hurt here).
- Very high special attack and amazing coverage / STABs
- Access to a reliable sleeping move (Lovely Kiss - 75% accuracy)
- No Pokemon can switch safely 100% into it, aside from...Metang I guess, and it STILL has a chance to lose between Lovely Kiss/Focus Blasts on the switch.
- Most of the things that wall it are setup fodder for the CM set
- If it gets a NP and you can't revenge kill it, it's game over
- It can run various sets, and you don't know which set is it running usually
You're talking as if Jynx has all of those options available to it all of the time.
- Good speed and great spatk with access to Trick, it sounds like an excellent Choice user.
- Access to a sleeping move and Nasty Plot; amazing sweeper/wallbreaker.
- Access to Sub and CM; decent specially bulky booster.
- Sub + 3 attacks; Good hole puncher, Sub is somewhat unreliable thanks to lack of bulk.
- Lovely Kiss + 3 attacks; Good hole puncher, Lovely Kiss is somewhat unreliable thanks to accuracy.
- Sub + Lovely Kiss + NP/CM; easy to set up but needs certain Pokemon to be gone.
At what point are any of the above options individually broken?
It can be argued that the threat of not knowing Jynx's set is the most threatening thing about it but I've lost count of how many Pokemon that can be said of. Altaria rips things apart with Specs, is that Sawk/Braviary Banded or Scarfed? Which HP does Magmortar have? Does it have Sub? What coverage is Sawsbuck using? Is it Banded, Scarfed, Lum or Life Orb? Is it Sub SD?
Jynx is fantastic at doing the job you give it, but every set has counters and it can't have everything at once. Its bulk is low so the vast majority of weak attackers in the tier can break its Subs, its speed is high to make it threatening but allows it to be revenged easily, how much coverage it wants to run compromises its set up ability. It's balanced precariously on the edge of very dangerous, which makes it a perfect Pokemon to play with and against imo.
If the opponent has removed all of my Jynx checks and revengers then it's not a broken Jynx that's sweeping me, it's a very well played opponent and thoroughly deserved.
o_O Jynx? Jynx is no where neeeeear broken. Its frail as fuck, meaning it cannot switch in risk free on anything besides a water move, with its awful typing and piss poor defenses.
or Giga Drain's and weak special moves in general. Her physical bulk is pathetic, but 65/95 is not "piss poor". It's not great but it's definitely usable in a pinch.
Leman said:
Meaning you either have to predict a water move, (Fun fact most water types wall Jynx)
"Common" water types in NU: Gorebyss, Lapras, Huntail, Samurott, Wartortle, ludicolo, quagsire, alomomola.
Ones that wall Gorebyss: Lapras(uness Jynx runs coverage), spdef quagaire?.
Gorebyss with HP Bug can defeat Gorebyss but sure as hell can't wall her; same goes for Huntail and Samurott with Crunch and Megahorn respectively. Wartortle and Alomomola can't touch her and Ludicolo can't do much back and loses 1v1.
Leman said:
, come in on something scary as it sets up (meaning there's a chance that you die if your opponent predicts), or, more likely, let something die before you can come in. Being super frail also means she cannot take any hits AFTER she gets in, meaning you have to have Scarfers gone, priority gone, stuff thats faster than you gone. (Jynx is slow too, outsped by Swellow, Charizard, Cinccino, Raichu, Cryogonal, Tauros, all scarfers etc and then has to risk a tie with stuff like Haunter and Sawsbuck). jynx's nonexistant bulk is futher compounded by her weakness to Stealth Rocks, Pursuit (Seriously, if you're having trouble with Jynx just stick Pursuit on LO Tauros or Swellow and have fun).
Well I do agree that it isn't always easy to set Jynx up, it isn't nearly as hard as you say it is. Jynx can set up in front of many stall pokemon like Vileplume or Garbodor(with Substitute), Weeing, the aforementioned water types. Many psychic types if needed(though this isn't reccomended), Cradily without stone edge etc... and mid game if you need to sacrifice something in order to sweep with Jynx why wouldn't you? She is fast, I don't know what you're saying when you say she's slow; NU is really focused around the base 85 tier, and Cryogonal that outspeed you don't run haze and can be set up on. Charizard has the Fire blast issues and can't revenge at all if Jynx preserved her sub. Cinccino is legitimate as a revenge killer with Rock Blast. and Raichu will die before Jynx unless its a physical set. Tauros and Swellow also beat subless Jynx.
Leman said:
Furthermore, Jynx can't hurt a fly, unless she sets up, with Nasty Plot. Without any bulk, the only thing you're setting up on is choice locked water moves, or trying to scare out something like Tangela, or she can rely on Lovely Kiss, with its 75% accuracy. Bascially, every time Jynx goes for a sweep, shes got to sacrifice something to get in, gamble to set up (Tangela can just as easily stay in an cripple you with Stun spore/take out half your health with Giga Drain, or your Lovely Kiss could miss [I can't tell you how many times Lovely kiss has missed and Absol just shits on her with Night Slash].), and then you're very prone to revenge killing.
Jynx has the same SpAtk stat as Raikou, trust me you don't always need to set up to start throwing Ice Beams around hurting things. She isn't ridiculously powerful but she can hurt things without a boost. I've covered bulk already. And teams can't risk leaving Tangela in especially if I have a physical threat lurking. Even if Jynx dies eliminating it she has done her job. And with leftovers recovery even Stealth Rock damage can be negated if there is fodder on the opposing team. Jynx can switch in quite a few times. And it's not like spinning is that hard, Missy seems pretty rare this round.
I'll finish later since I have to go but Jynx is definitely better than what you said.
That's the one thing I give Jynx, it still needs support to do its job effectively. From a typical team match-up Jynx likely won't be able to sweep the opponent without one or two mons being killed beforehand, namely its checks. The matchup isn't an automatic loss whenever you see Jynx (unless you're dumb and your team is wide open to it), it takes good prediction and a gameplan in order to play around Jynx, just like Absol and other top threats in the tier. Besides the fact that Jynx is a powerhouse she really is benefited by Lovely Kiss, and hurt by it, too. Lovely Kiss has a 75% acc. which means you might miss the move when the opponent switches their check in, either forcing Jynx out or killing her in terms of pursuit.
Jynx does suffer from 4mss but it isn't anywhere near as bad as what Gorebyss has to deal with.
Except that, when considering the brokeness of a Pokemon you should consider all the sets it can run, or at least the most common ones. If you see, most of the pokes have counters for each specific sets (heck, even most of the Ubers do), but they are still banned, why? Because let's take any Pokemon that got banished to the respective BL/Ubers list. Most of them have counters/checks for 1 or 2 sets, but then flat-out loses to another set, does that mean they are not broken? Totally not. Also, could we please stop treating all the Pokemon as if they were the same? Magmortar, Sawsbuck, Jynx are completely different Pokemon, you can't compare them basing your comparison ONLY on the sheer power / theorymon'd power. Jynx has no "counters" in the strict sense of the world "counter", mainly because NOTHING in the tier can withstand its assaults, and I'm not talking about TrickChoice or whatever, just see the LO set I posted above, that's already enough to rip into most things in the tier. The fact that it has a lot of checks doesn't make it any less broken, when it will probably kill a poke every time it comes in, or simply severely dent one. Its frailty isn't that big of an argument really, Deoxys-A is frail, Staraptor is frail, yet they got banned from their respective tiers, simply because they can switch out from what can outspeed them/kill them with priorities. Also, another thing to consider when discussing brokeness is how the Pokemon fares against all the playstyles, let's see what Jynx does:
Against offensive teams, either you are running 6 pokes that outspeed it (unrealistic), or you are bound to lose a poke everytime it switches into those 1/2/3/4 pokes that are slower in your team, then it switches out from the thing you send in that outspeeds it and then repeat. If you switch out and it puts up a Sub, you lose one of your revenge killers, same if it Lovely Kiss while you switch in.
Against balanced teams, your best bet is STILL to revenge killers (since Jynx has like...1 counter...sleep talk Metang...), and see what I wrote about offensive teams, except Jynx is able to come into even more pokes, since balanced teams are overall slower than offensive ones.
Stall is what has the most problems vs Jynx, for all the reasons mentioned above. Of course stall has things that can tank a hit and phaze it/kill it (Lickilicky comes to mind), but NP Jynx destroys those with just 1 turn of setup, and in a stall team there surely are at least 1-2 pokes Jynx can set up on.
Jynx doesn't promote a healthy metagame at all, causing problems to all the playstyles, being a huge threat and able to incapacitate its few "counters" by just using Lovely Kiss.
What you said would be true if Jynx had Lickilicky's bulk. You're vastly over-estimating Jynx's ability to 'switch in'.
Let's take a more balanced view of it:
Against offence: The only time Jynx can switch in is after kill, or on a Water move or a special move it resists. Jynx will generally have a hard time because even after switching in successfully it will face a pretty hard task putting up a Sub, which leaves Lovely Kiss as the best option. But Lovely Kiss leaves it vulnerable to revenge killing and most offensive teams will likely have one Pokemon faster than Jynx + a Scarfer. If Jynx can come in safely and grab a Sub then it will cause serious problems, but that will require good play and good support on the part of the Jynx user.
Against balanced teams: Jynx has more opportunities to set up here. It still has trouble coming in safely, most likely on a weak special attack ie Tangela or Cryogonal. Balanced teams may have a dedicated special wall or tank, which Jynx without NP will struggle against. If it has NP then it is more liable to revenging just like against offensive teams. Again Jynx will have to be played well to do damage.
Against stall: With a set like SubKissNP it can single-handedly destroy stall. However any sets without NP will be useless. It's a balance and the team builder will have to consider the advantages of using the different Jynx sets and whether Jynx will be the one that deals with stall. It is vulnerable against Toxic Spikes so even the NP set will need to be played well and either be supported or have to come in before TSpikes are set up.
No one is denying Jynx is a top threat, but it is balanced imo with only stall having a really hard time against it. However it is not going to be switching in at will to nab kills like you describe. Most times Jynx will need support and good play to be effective.
N.B. I am generally really against banning anything unless it is absolutely proved to be unplayable so generally when a suspect discussion pops up I try to find ways that such Pokemon can be redeemed. I'm open to the idea of Jynx being broken if it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt, otherwise I'm inclined to think it's just a fantastic Pokemon.
I haven't played loads of NU (or at least balanced NU, seeing as I run HO rain which is usually over in 20 turns or less), but I don't think Jynx is broken. There is a very distinct line curbing each set's capabilities. Scarf sets are easily gotten round by something that has special defense+something that can take a trickscarf, NP sets can be beaten by so long as you're not too stubborn to leave your sleeping pokemon in (which sometimes will be unavoidable) with something that can take an ice attack and hurt it (hint, it's defense can't take hits for peanuts) or just something fast with u-turn (though this may require a little more prediction).
It also has a very tough time switching in due to lack of resistances and a SR weakness as well as having its presence known by team preview, meaning if you're playing a half-decent player, it won't even be switching in safely on water types.
Tricking a Choice Item into special walls also works,so does CMing up on Special attackers, something you don't mention when facing stall, also the LO set can destroy most stall teams singlehandedly without even needing to boost up.
The fact that Jynx isn't as threatening against offensive teams as other Pokemon doesn't make it any less broken, it still can easily get 1 or 2 kills just by coming in after something in your team died to something slow, or Sleep it.
Balanced team usually only have 1 chance, 2 at best to revenge kill Jynx, and that chance could be easily be thrown away from a well timed Lovely Kiss/attack, since your revenge killer wouldn't be able to switch into a Jynx unless prediction (which goes both ways, hence shouldn't be accounted), leading you to have to sacrifice one poke, send in your revenge killer and hope your opp doesn't switch out with Jynx (amazing gameplan!!!).
About the faster mons with U-Turn, they all lose if they come into a Substitute, you'd U-Turn out while breaking the sub, then switch in something that will lose a lot of health (unless something such as Lapras on Ice Beam), then have to switch it in, not a good plan at all to deal with Jynx.
The way I see it is that there's no reliable way to beat Jynx 100% of the times.
Balanced team usually only have 1 chance, 2 at best to revenge kill Jynx, and that chance could be easily be thrown away from a well timed Lovely Kiss/attack
You can't use Jynx being able to predict a switch in as a reason for it being broken. You could just as easily have said Jynx is useless because it can be predicted to come in.
since your revenge killer wouldn't be able to switch into a Jynx unless prediction (which goes both ways, hence shouldn't be accounted) leading you to sacrifice one poke, send in your revenge killer and hope your opp doesn't switch out with Jynx (amazing gameplan!!!).
That sounds like a pretty standard sequence of events in a battle. In fact would it make a difference if we replaced 'Jynx' with any other fast and powerful NU Pokemon?
That I agree with, it wouldn't be a very good Pokemon if there was a way to beat it 100% of the time.
Honestly I don't think Jynx is too much trouble for offence or balanced teams. It is fast and powerful with good coverage or good set up options depending on what you choose. It is frail which means both players can play the prediction game which in fact encourages good play. Be too rash with your Jynx and it could be dead before it has started, but be too conservative and predictable and you won't remove its checks.
Tricking a Choice Item into special walls also works,so does CMing up on Special attackers, something you don't mention when facing stall, also the LO set can destroy most stall teams singlehandedly without even needing to boost up.
Jynx gives immense trouble to stall, but how many stall teams have you seen recently? How many successful stall teams are there on the ladder? Is Jynx the one broken monster that is supressing stall and not allowing it to flourish? If the answer is yes then Jynx will have a case to answer to, but I suspect NU is just not very kind to stall in general.
I concord with LuckOverSkill, Jynx have very few chance to be revenge killed if the opponent is a bit smart. In my teams the only chance that i get against jynx is to let jynx kill something and put in my full-health golem that kills her with rock blast while she sleep me (consuming my lum) or ice beams me (activing Sturdy) or she can simply switch and then, i have to wait that something else dies. Another way is to use my ScarfGardevoir, but if the opponent jynx is scarf too, she beat me in speed. The last chance is to kill her with hazards, but my garbodor is pratically a setup fodder for jynx (sometimes i catch her on the switch with GunkMiss).
I talk for my actual team, and i know that you can say to put something more viable for shouting jynx, but i have experience with other teams i've played, Jynx is really hard to stop since you can't know for sure wich set she going to have. Just my point
Where do people get the idea of "offense not having any problems with Jynx" from?? I have been running offense all the way up to 1500 and Jynx was one of the greatest problems. Barely anything can survive Ice Beam/Psyshock, let alone in combination with Lovely Kiss, which has a 75% chance to sleep something which basically means death when using offense; unless you consider death fodder to be "alive". So yeah, unless you're running a team full of Base 100+ Speed Pokemon Jynx will totally wreck offensive, defensive and balanced teams alike.
Also, I agree with everything Luck said, and people should really start using LO + 3 Attacks Jynx instead of saying stuff like
Furthermore, Jynx can't hurt a fly, unless she sets up, with Nasty Plot.
So I kind of forgot to mention it, but council meeting tomorrow at 5 pm EST in #nucouncil or some similar channel. This one will be council members only because I hope that all the council members will show...
Jynx can be hard as shit to prepare for. Lots of people (including me) often go ahead and just assume it's the Sub/NP mono-attacking set seeing as how that's probably the most capable of sweeping whole teams, and switch into a Steel-type such as Probopass or Rock Blast Bastiodon. Using something like a LO + 3 Attacks with Focus Blast (as previously mentioned) will allow you to take out some of its most common switch-ins. I personally think a set with Lovely Kiss, Nasty Plot and two attacks (Ice Beam or Psychic + Focus Blast) would be very effective as well.
That being said, the Speed tier it's in is probably what stops it from being over the top. With its low defenses, the only way Jynx will ever be able to take care of any base 100+ Speed Pokemon is by holding a Scarf or already being behind a Substitute - limiting its offensive coverage to the point where it can be countered more easily.
Where do people get the idea of "offense not having any problems with Jynx" from?? I have been running offense all the way up to 1500 and Jynx was one of the greatest problems. Barely anything can survive Ice Beam/Psyshock, let alone in combination with Lovely Kiss, which has a 75% chance to sleep something which basically means death when using offense; unless you consider death fodder to be "alive". So yeah, unless you're running a team full of Base 100+ Speed Pokemon Jynx will totally wreck offensive, defensive and balanced teams alike.
Also, I agree with everything Luck said, and people should really start using LO + 3 Attacks Jynx instead of saying stuff like
"offense not having any problems with Jynx" - where are you quoting this from?
Everybody recognises that Jynx is a big threat, there's no need to make up a quotation and have an easy debate with yourself to see if Jynx is a threat.
The issue is whether Jynx is overpowering to the point of breaking NU. You claim that Jynx = death when it comes in. Let's see some calculations on what top threats Jynx can outspeed, what out of those it can 2HKO that can't 2HKO it back and what it can OHKO, and what out of those that it can safely switch in on.
That would be a much more convincing argument than saying you ran an offence team that had some trouble with Jynx.
I feel that overpowering / broken doesn't necessarily mean that you are guaranteed of a kill every time you come in, nor does it mean that you have a guaranteed sweep. Of course, if you have no measures against Jynx you are either way too optimistic or mildly dysfunctional, but that's usually not enough. Naturally, 'overcentralization' is of course a bs thing just becuase of this (no shit you need to prepare) but I'm worried about is overpreparation... in a metagame with so many strong offensive threats, you don't want to dedicate 2 mons just to counter Jynx--that's 1/3 of the team already! If you're trying to cover your bases against Sawk / (Gorebyss or Ludicolo) / (Magmortar or Charizard) / Sawsbuck / Swellow and other, it's kind of hard to prepare Jynx using 2 mons without compromising your coverage against other prominent threats. (i named these threats mostly because a poke usually can counter only two of them at the very most, and those who can double-cover tend to get wrecked by all the rest)
Also, the SubNP and 3-attacks set requires totally different counters. Let's say you have...probopass as your jynx counter: in case it's the NP set, you'll still need something else to take an Ice beam becuase Probopass gets slept. If it's the LO 3-attacks set, you need a set of two different Ice-type resists! (that means... 3 Ice-type resists, a little over the top if you ask me)
Also, even if you have a countermeasure, it will still get kills if played well. (and it's not like this 'played well' requires a type of jedi mind-force... it just requires that you have the patience to wait for the right time to come in after a slower opposing mon kills your mon / opponent gets unlucky and guesses the set wrong)
tl;dr-I'm not saying it's broken, but just saying, it can be broken without really having to kill a mon every switch-in or get a mini-sweep going every game. Like NLI said, seeing a concrete list would be ideal, but reminding that we have an okay portion of the metagame that wins 1 vs 1 against jynx doesn't mean as much as it should because of the darned sleep. (lol I have a feeling I'm gonna be shat on for posting this, but w/e.)
I guess its unpredictability is what sets it apart from other threats, but regardless of how hard it can be to counter, I still don't feel like it ''breaks'' the metagame whatsoever. Hypno is a good example of what will pretty much be a safe switch-in no matter what set Jynx is running.
And I should probably read back a little to see how much this has already been argued about, but I still think Charizard is way OP.
Against offence: The only time Jynx can switch in is after kill, or on a Water move or a special move it resists. Jynx will generally have a hard time because even after switching in successfully it will face a pretty hard task putting up a Sub, which leaves Lovely Kiss as the best option. But Lovely Kiss leaves it vulnerable to revenge killing and most offensive teams will likely have one Pokemon faster than Jynx + a Scarfer. If Jynx can come in safely and grab a Sub then it will cause serious problems, but that will require good play and good support on the part of the Jynx user.
OK lets take a look at some really common and threatening Pokemon in NU that Jynx can outspeed (I left a hell of a lot of poke off this list, since they either suck or are irrelevant when considering Jynx). When talking about Jynx I'll be talking about the LK + 3 Attacks set with Ice Beam / Psyshock / Focus Blast, as that is what I feel is the most threatening set, to all playstyles.
So if we assume Jynx needs to switch in on something (its more effective coming in on a death but I'll ignore that for now) it can somwhat reliably come in on: Ludicolo, Samurott, Alomomola, Tangela, Gorebyss, Audino, Regice, Quagsire, Amoonguss. All of these will generally carry something that Jynx has to be carful of, but equally Jynx can come in on mostly the rest of their common movesets.
Ludicolo: Easy safe switch in, only fearing the relatively rare Leech Seed or Toxic, even then it doesn't care much. Once in it does this:
252SpAtk Life Orb Jynx (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Ludicolo (Neutral): 57% - 67% (208 - 247 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
While Ludicolo does very little back. Moving on.
Samurott: Has to be wary of Megahorn, but generally Samurott is looking to set up or revenge kill something with Aqua Jet. Jynx can put it to sleep and then:
252SpAtk Life Orb Jynx (Neutral) Psyshock vs 112HP/0Def Leftovers Samurott (Neutral): 49% - 58% (178 - 211 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Almost definitely a 2HKO, even without Stealth Rocks.
Alomomola: Lol ok. Jynx loves coming in on this, putting something to sleep then just pounding away at whatever it wants. Also just for reference:
252SpAtk Life Orb Jynx (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Alomomola (Neutral): 34% - 41% (186 - 222 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Considering Alomomola is either alseep or not doing anything back, thats a lot better than it looks.
Tangela: Can come in on anything that is not Sleep Powder, will OHKO with Ice Beam or put to sleep anything that switches in. Note at this point you can't simply switch in something faster since there is always the risk that they will take the Ice Beam, or the Lovely Kiss to the face. Common scarfers like Rotom-S and Sawk really cannot take an Ice Beam to the face, and Magmortar hates Psyshock.
Gorebyss: Comes in on anything, provided its not the rare HP Bug Gorebyss. If it decides to Shell Smash as Jynx switches in then
252SpAtk Life Orb Jynx (Neutral) Psyshock vs 4HP/0Def -1 Gorebyss (Neutral): 88% - 104% (223 - 264 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 29% chance to OHKO.
252SpAtk Life Orb Jynx (Neutral) Psyshock vs 4HP/0Def Gorebyss (Neutral): 59% - 70% (150 - 177 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Life Orb +2 Gorebyss (Neutral) Hidden Power (Grass) vs 4HP/0SpDef Dry Skin Jynx (Neutral): 69% - 81% (188 - 222 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Basically, Jynx will more often than not come out on top against Gorebyss.
Audino: Yes it hates T-Wave, and Toxic to a lesser extent, but Audino will generally be using Wish or Heal Bell. Between Wish and Protect it is a pretty good check, but can still be put to sleep. Once asleep:
252SpAtk Life Orb Jynx (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Audino (Neutral): 43% - 51% (177 - 210 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
(Note I think SDef Quagsire is dumb, just putting that calc there for reference) Also Quagsire gets put to sleep.
Amoonguss: As long as it avoids Spore (a lot of the time Sleep Clause is already active if the opponent has Amoonguss) it can get in safely. Stun Spore can be annoying but eh, its not that common.
These Pokemon are all very common in NU, and there are representitives from all playstyles. Jynx does having trouble switching in on a lot of the metagame yes, but the above shows it does get opportunities against almost every team. Secondly, Jynx is much much more effective when it comes in once a teammate has died to something slower than Jynx (that is a lot of the metagame). Once in, there is a 75% chance that something is going to be put to sleep. Its not 100% yes, but its still pretty damn reliable. Once you have foddered something to sleep, what now? If you switch into something faster you are running the risk of taking and Ice Beam / Psyshock to the face. In reality, what fast than Jynx can easily take one or both of those moves reliably? SNEASEL. K outside of Sneasel you have...Miltank. Considering almost every Miltank is defensive and if it is slower than Jynx then this happens...
So in reality you are going to be letting something else get either completely crippled or die. You can always sacrifice the same thing you let sleep, but then you run the risk of something else being put to sleep. Even if you do sacrifice something to get out your revenge killer, Jynx has done its job; killing something and putting something to sleep, not to mention there is nothing stopping it switching straight back out (unless you want to run Pursuit Tauros / Swellow).
BUT there a few things that can always switch into Jynx. Hypno can take this Life Orb set easily, as can Grumpig and a few other select mons. The major problem with this however, is that they get completely destroyed by a Nasty Plot or Substitute set (or both). Also, Hypno is pretty bad in this metagame.
tl;dr The LK + 3 Attacks set almost always forces two pokemon to be crippled or die everytime it gets in. And it can get in. This is provided you are not running one of the few hard counters to that set, and even if you are they will be defeated by other Jynx sets, or just put to sleep if it isn't Hypno. Jynx is a monster when played right, broken imo.
That's a very interesting list Django, and very convincing that if Jynx can come in safely then it will cause plenty of problems. But how common are those Pokemon that you listed?
Using the March stats, 4 out of 8 you listed are in the top 6.67% of usage (or likely to be seen once every 15 battles), namely: Quagsire, Gorebyss, Tangela and Samurott. We'll provisionally include Ludicolo to this list too to make 5 out of 9. The others are lesser seen, less than once every 15 battles, so I'm inclined to give them less consideration (but they deserve consideration none-the-less, just a bit uncommon for a 'broken' Pokemon to be preying on). You have also not taken Stealth Rock into consideration for your calculations (not a criticism or anything, just an observation).
I don't think it's unreasonable to look at the more common threats in more detail and to consider SR in calculations.
Out of those 5, Jynx is not going to feel particularly safe coming into Quagsire and it will absolutely need Lovely Kiss to connect because Quagsire does 77.49% - 91.14% damage with Earthquake - a clean OHKO after SR. So 3 times out of 4 Jynx will sleep Quagsire and cause trouble, while 1 time out of 4 it will do nothing and be OHKOed; this is assuming your prediction skills are spot on because Quagsire has 2 out of 4 moves that Jynx wants to avoid while coming in including avoiding an OHKO on EQ.
Defensive Ludicolo is fairly good to Jynx. As long as Jynx avoids Leech Seed or Toxic it will be OK, but again that's two moves out of 4 that Jynx must avoid. Offensive Ludicolo is a bit more problematic, the combination of Ice Beam and Giga Drain is a guaranteed OHKO after rocks so Jynx must come in on Hydro Pump, or else Lovely Kiss must not miss. Again it's the 3 out of 4 times Jynx does damage, 1 out of 4 times Jynx risks doing nothing and dying.
Samurott is somewhat friendlier to Jynx; the onus is on the Samurott user to predict the Jynx switch-in because 3 out of 4 moves does not hurt Jynx. Jynx can feel pretty safe but again 3 out of 4 times it will sleep Samurott and 1 out of 4 times Samurott will get a chance to Megahorn Jynx.
Gorebyss is somewhat of a mixed bag. If Jynx switches in on a Shell Smash then Gorebyss can outspeed and has a 56.25% chance to OHKO with HP [Grass] after SR. Jynx can OHKO back with Psyshock (and it will die of LO regardless). Variants with HP [Bug] need no calculations. If Jynx comes in on an attack then, again: 3/4 chance to sleep, 1 out of 4 chance to miss and Gorebyss will Smash and unless Jynx came in on Surf then Gorebyss will OHKO.
Tangela is the kindest Pokemon on the list. Most Tangela can't hurt Jynx so it will be forced out as long as Jynx comes in safely. Jynx must try to avoid Sleep Powder and Leech Seed on the switch in. The safe thing to do would be to go straight for the Ice Beam because anything else gives a chance for Tangela to sleep or seed you. Variants carrying HP [Fire] could hurt Jynx badly however, making Tangela have 3 out of 4 moves that will hurt Jynx in that case.
Looking at the list of 26 Pokemon over 6.667% usage (this is a completely arbitrary number btw, this bar can be raised or lowered depending on your view, personally I think 1 in 15 battles is a decent cut off point) Cryogonal, Vileplume and possibly Misdreavus and Miltank stand out as potential 'safe' switch-ins for Jynx. Notice how all of them apart from Cryogonal can seriously hurt Jynx upon switching in or if Lovely Kiss misses.
There is one guaranteed way to get Jynx in safely and that is on a revenge kill against something that is slower that can't threaten Jynx very much. Does Jynx get this opportunity far too easily? Does it guarantee a sleep and a kill if it is in this position? Is the 3 in 4 chance to hit consistent enough? (Seeing as its bulk means it often can't afford to miss a Lovely Kiss unlike other common sleep inducers). This for me is the sticking point because it's Jynx's wide coverage and set up moves that cause the most headache but its own frailty means it too walks a fine line between success and failure.
Just to clear it up I made that list just by going through anything slower than Jynx and picking out a few things it can switch in on that are actually used. I could have kept going and found more or actually picked them out of the usage stats but eh, its the same thing really.
As for your questions, Jynx virtually guarantees a sleep and most likely a kill if it gets in safely. Of course its impossible to say with certainty that it will always happen, there are too many other factors (team matchups, hax etc). I don't think the reliability of Lovely Kiss needs to be called into question, as it hits more often than not. If we were talking about something like Dynamic Punch then sure. If Jynx misses a Lovely Kiss and loses because of it, then it got unlucky. Lovely Kiss hitting is what should be expected, at least on the first time it is used. I don't want to get into the statisitics of this, but I think its safe to assume Lovely Kiss will reliably hit the first time, considering we also assume things like Stealth Rock. Relying on Lovely Kiss missing should not be a factor in beating Jynx.
