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I will probably vote for no ban because he is obviously not broken since lots of Pokemon counter him as already pointed out in this thread many times. And even though he can cover many of his counters, doing this will give him new weaknesses since he has 4MSS. And there are Pokemon who do this much better anyway. Like Charizard. Charizard is even worse since if you cannot guess his mega then you do not even know what role he will be playing, at least Megagross is predictable.
i find it a bit strange that players who decide to vote ban for megagross because they view him as a largely negative impact on the oras ou metagame are criticized for voting improperly or something, yet there's an influx of players who say they'll vote no ban because he has checks and counters, which has been stated several times throughout this thread as not a signifier as to whether or not a mon is broken.
i find it a bit strange that players who decide to vote ban for megagross because they view him as a largely negative impact on the oras ou metagame are criticized for voting improperly or something, yet there's an influx of players who say they'll vote no ban because he has checks and counters, which has been stated several times throughout this thread as not a signifier as to whether or not a mon is broken.
How about you explain to us why having no checks and counters does not make a mon broken? Every time ive seen someone say something about that they gave no proof.
Even when it does not come to checks, some things handle MMeta at low health, because if they handled them at full health they would be considered a check/counter. In this case, MMeta has many viable counters and checks, which makes him much different than the other suspects.
also the "comparing other suspects is a bad thing" is stupid because comparing mmeta to other suspects in terms of power and over centralization you can see why MMeta is a joke compared to them.
When a mon has no checks/counters, it obviously shows how much coverage it has and how overcentralizing it is; i mean look at Greninja, MMence, etc. and thats one of the founding statements for anti ban players.
imo comparing other suspects to this one it silly unless the impact was similar, and aegi and mence had a really different impact on the metagame. Some veterans state that BW Exca comes close to impact on the meta, but i dont think it matters that much cos the meta is different. Thing with Mega Metagross is, that its checks need some prior requirement to be fulfilled in order for its checks/counters to function properly. Now, how do you fulfill those requirements? Obv you sometimes have to sack something in order to do so, which is a big loss. Ik more often than not it can be deciphered what coverage Metagross may be running/lacking on team preview and you can play accordingly, but still it's an uphill task. i can't believe i sound pro-ban, but it's just a reply to the current chain of posts going on, and i'm still open to be persuaded by either side given that the arguments are strong.
How about you explain to us why having no checks and counters does not make a mon broken? Every time ive seen someone say something about that they gave no proof.
Even when it does not come to checks, some things handle MMeta at low health, because if they handled them at full health they would be considered a check/counter. In this case, MMeta has many viable counters and checks, which makes him much different than the other suspects.
i never said having no checks/counters does not make a mon broken. every mon in the game has a check or a counter. this is why we look for checks/counters that are viable within the tier wherein it's relevant. having said, that, if a mon did have literally 0 checks/counters, it would be broken, but that isn't the case for any mon we've ever banned. name one. it had a check/counter. greninja? people like to cite him. P2. aegislash? charizard-y was a check.
what i'm saying is that the argument "megagross has checks/counters therefore he's not broken" is just a stupid argument and to vote on that platform is ridiculous, at least as ridiculous as people claim banning on grounds of impact on the meta is. every mon has checks/counters. just because megagross has checks does not make him healthy for the meta, nor does it make him unbroken. so that's a bad argument. and i'm not going to provide proof, i don't have to. it's literally in the suspect etiquette thread. it's about as close to official as it gets here on smogon, so take it or leave it as far as i'm concerned.
When a mon has no checks/counters, it obviously shows how much coverage it has and how overcentralizing it is; i mean look at Greninja, MMence, etc. and thats one of the founding statements for anti ban players.
i never said having no checks/counters does not make a mon broken. every mon in the game has a check or a counter. this is why we look for checks/counters that are viable within the tier wherein it's relevant. having said, that, if a mon did have literally 0 checks/counters, it would be broken, but that isn't the case for any mon we've ever banned. name one. it had a check/counter. greninja? people like to cite him. P2. aegislash? charizard-y was a check.
what i'm saying is that the argument "megagross has checks/counters therefore he's not broken" is just a stupid argument and to vote on that platform is ridiculous, at least as ridiculous as people claim banning on grounds of impact on the meta is. every mon has checks/counters. just because megagross has checks does not make him healthy for the meta, nor does it make him unbroken. so that's a bad argument. and i'm not going to provide proof, i don't have to. it's literally in the suspect etiquette thread. it's about as close to official as it gets here on smogon, so take it or leave it as far as i'm concerned.
Those mons did not have checks/counters that could effectively function in the tier besides just dealing with that one mon. Almost all the mons that are considered to be answers to metagross are some of the best mons in the tier and have plenty of other uses outside of dealing with metagross. You are mis quoting the argument you are talking about the argument is " Megagross has OU viable checks/counters therefore he is not broken". obviously this isnt the sole argument for anti-ban people but it is one of them. People do not need to scour other tiers to look for obscure checks to handle metagross, they can just look at some of the best mons in OU and pick from them, and then deal with metagross as one of their many fucntions. In the case of greninja, porygon 2 wasnt as bad as everyone made him out to be, but he was a rather obscure counter that couldnt do too much else in the tier, and same thing with avalugg and megamence. I could go on but hopefully you see the mistake you are making. Just because greninja had a counter(and was broken) does not mean that we can not use the argument that having counters are a good reason to keep him.
i never said having no checks/counters does not make a mon broken. every mon in the game has a check or a counter. this is why we look for checks/counters that are viable within the tier wherein it's relevant. having said, that, if a mon did have literally 0 checks/counters, it would be broken, but that isn't the case for any mon we've ever banned. name one. it had a check/counter. greninja? people like to cite him. P2. aegislash? charizard-y was a check.
what i'm saying is that the argument "megagross has checks/counters therefore he's not broken" is just a stupid argument and to vote on that platform is ridiculous, at least as ridiculous as people claim banning on grounds of impact on the meta is. every mon has checks/counters. just because megagross has checks does not make him healthy for the meta, nor does it make him unbroken. so that's a bad argument. and i'm not going to provide proof, i don't have to. it's literally in the suspect etiquette thread. it's about as close to official as it gets here on smogon, so take it or leave it as far as i'm concerned.
Yes, but the thing is is that if it had no checks and counters then it would be really dominant anyways.
However, i do agree every mon has a check, but never a counter. P2 basically didnt function outside walling shit and dealing small damage back, and char y isnt switching into a shadow ball. It also loses to the rare sub set if its already set up.
Were not basing that on our anti ban argument; Its the combination of that mmeta isnt
a. over centralizing
b. broken
c. weak compared to other suspects
d. has common checks/counters (something that all other suspects didnt)
e. would unbalance the meta and give playstyles the short end.
if we based it off of just c then i would be on pro ban because thats stupid. Are you implying he does not have counters? Gourgeist, Skarm, Victini (no eq=insta counter) are just a few. sure they arent that great of mons, but there are some mons that dont have counters, either. Char Y basically has minimal counters (tflame is like the only one) and no one thinks its broken. Explain to me that having 20+ checks and around 10 total counters makes a mon with no recovery options and no way to boost stats (which it would love) unless it wants 4MSS? Just want a reason.
You dont have to provide proof? You're making your pro ban side look like a bunch of idiots. If you arent gonna give me proof, then your argument falls straight on your ass because you are only spewing out opinions now.
i never said having no checks/counters does not make a mon broken. every mon in the game has a check or a counter. this is why we look for checks/counters that are viable within the tier wherein it's relevant. having said, that, if a mon did have literally 0 checks/counters, it would be broken, but that isn't the case for any mon we've ever banned. name one. it had a check/counter. greninja? people like to cite him. P2. aegislash? charizard-y was a check.
what i'm saying is that the argument "megagross has checks/counters therefore he's not broken" is just a stupid argument and to vote on that platform is ridiculous, at least as ridiculous as people claim banning on grounds of impact on the meta is. every mon has checks/counters. just because megagross has checks does not make him healthy for the meta, nor does it make him unbroken. so that's a bad argument. and i'm not going to provide proof, i don't have to. it's literally in the suspect etiquette thread. it's about as close to official as it gets here on smogon, so take it or leave it as far as i'm concerned.
MMence had Avalugg used, not just by scrubs either, some good players used it too.
Gren had far weaker 4MSS than Meta,as the 4 moves it chose covered far more than Meta can in 4 moves. Gren only had Chansey/P2 who put up a fight on stall, while Meta doesn't have the power to easily beat stall, and Skarm, Gliscor and others I posted earlier beat it on stall.
Basically, MMence had crap checks/counters and saw usage on plain unviable stuff, while nothing could beat Gren on stall. The difference between Meta and them is Meta's checks are viable, splashable and on each playstyle. A standard, well built team can get around Meta without going out of it's way, and MMeta weak mons are still viable (unlike much of what Aegi forced), which is why I don't think it warrants a ban.
Going to vote ban on Mega Metagross. It has incredible bulk, a fast speed tier, and very limited switch ins. Not going too into depth since everyone else already posted calcs, and summed up the pro ban arguments.
"A Pokemon doesn't have to necessarily be broken or uncompetitive to be banned. Another qualifier for a Pokemon being banworthy is a negative effect on the tier. That's the entire reason Aegislash was banned. ... It is absolutely valid for Mega Metagross's negative effect on the tier and creating a worse metagame than one without it to be used as a pro-ban argument."
It always seemed like this was just an unspoken elephant in the room but having it stated openly is pretty refreshing to see.
However, I don't think pro-ban people really need to grasp at this nebulous idea of negative/positive battling environment. A simple tl;dr summary of all the situations where metagross just gets off too many powerful hits or tanking too many things is probably enough.
Basically has qualities similar to aegislash where that steel typing gives it too many exploitable resistances on a pokemon that has too much offensive firepower. There are only about 3 pokemon that can outspeed and ohko metagross without being choice locked (scarfed). That's crazy. Everything else is taking a huge hit either because gross is faster or because they only 2hko. Alternatively, you can stay choice locked into earthquakes and hope it doesn't get you swept. Finally, gross has a move for every single one of his counters. You can run the sets through sweepercalc yourself and see that the only 100% answer, scizor, is killed by the rare but useful hp fire. Leaving no true counters. Compound this with the ability to just luck through checks with atk boosts or flinches and you have something that seems objectively broken.
The problem is, every single S rank threat sounds the same if scrutinized like this. You could post a (secretly fake) suspect thread for any top threat and you'd get 100 posts of complaints for every 5 defensive posts. Diancie is a good example. It's perfectly balanced overall but make a fake suspect thread for it and you'd get a flood of posts about how it gets around its checks and counters with the superman set with rock polish and calm mind and hp fire and all 5 coverage moves too. Anyone who is on the fence will be too lazy to really post to defend it. On the other hand whoever just recently got swept by diancie will post about how broken it is and sheer volume will eventually win out. Someone could post how diancie is always 100% checked by scizor but then ten followup posts about how scizor can't switch in to HP fire, people shouldn't be forced to run scizor, diancie is centralizing the meta, and they've gotten nowhere.
Overall I don't think metagross is broken. Kill it with fire, jesus. But when you dedicate a whole thread to a pokemon like this, it will inevitably just get full of people theorymonning how it can get around counters, how it can ohko too many things, etc. But since apparently you can just ban things because you don't like it, and because everyone has been swept by a metagross once, it seems a foregone conclusion that the voting group is gonna get rid of it.
Those mons did not have checks/counters that could effectively function in the tier besides just dealing with that one mon. Almost all the mons that are considered to be answers to metagross are some of the best mons in the tier and have plenty of other uses outside of dealing with metagross. You are mis quoting the argument you are talking about the argument is " Megagross has OU viable checks/counters therefore he is not broken". obviously this isnt the sole argument for anti-ban people but it is one of them. People do not need to scour other tiers to look for obscure checks to handle metagross, they can just look at some of the best mons in OU and pick from them, and then deal with metagross as one of their many fucntions. In the case of greninja, porygon 2 wasnt as bad as everyone made him out to be, but he was a rather obscure counter that couldnt do too much else in the tier, and same thing with avalugg and megamence. I could go on but hopefully you see the mistake you are making. Just because greninja had a counter(and was broken) does not mean that we can not use the argument that having counters are a good reason to keep him.
no, i'm not boiling the anti-ban's argument down to "he has checks/counters therefore he's not broken"
i'm just pointing out a discrepancy. somehow it's viewed as valid and okay to criticize the judgment of those who argue that megagross should be banned due to his impact on the metagame, so much so that players have come and literally said that you can't and shouldn't do that. yet, when (a vast number of them, mind you) a group of people come and periodically post some standard "he has checks so he's not broken no ban" post, it gets glanced over like it's not contributing to a poor mindset. let's also consider that the former isn't outright breaking one of the rules of the suspect etiquette thread and the latter is. regardless, i'm not here to compare metagross to greninja, but if you really think his counters/checks are some of the best mons in OU you're fooling yourself. slowbro needs to run a substandard SpDef set, skarm needs counter, arcanine and cofagrigus are considered, etc etc. look back a few pages at that counters list, notice how many aren't even OU viable, then pay attention to the ones that are. most of them have to run substandard sets or they're shaky, or he has the coverage move to bop them if we're talking theory mon. he doesn't have a large number of near hard-stops like pretty much every threat has. he's clearly on a different level than the majority of the OU meta.
Yes, but the thing is is that if it had no checks and counters then it would be really dominant anyways.
However, i do agree every mon has a check, but never a counter. P2 basically didnt function outside walling shit and dealing small damage back, and char y isnt switching into a shadow ball. It also loses to the rare sub set if its already set up.
do you know what check means? char-y beat aegi one-v-one. period. this is another example, i can't argue that megagross can hit slowbro with GK on the switch but you can say "aegislash wins vs char-y if it's the toxic stall set that sets up a sub before it comes in". be real bruh, char-y checks aegislash. please let's not dispute that.
Were not basing that on our anti ban argument; Its the combination of that mmeta isnt
a. over centralizing
b. broken
c. weak compared to other suspects
d. has common checks/counters (something that all other suspects didnt)
e. would unbalance the meta and give playstyles the short end.
a: i disagree, subjective
b: i disagree, subjective
c: i disagree, subjective
d: i disagree, i don't want to go over the list of checks/counters again (also if you think greninja didn't have common checks you're fooling yourself, plenty of mons beat ninja one-v-one, he lacked counters, or will you try arguing that scarf-pretty much anything/talonflame/pinsir/bisharp on a non-dark-resistant type etc etc didn't beat it?)
e: i'm not sure what you're saying here. are you saying that the meta would be unbalanced if he would go? you have no proof of that. what we do have proof of is the meta that he has already impacted though. i personally view it as stale and bad.
if we based it off of just c then i would be on pro ban because thats stupid. Are you implying he does not have counters? Gourgeist, Skarm, Victini (no eq=insta counter) are just a few. sure they arent that great of mons, but there are some mons that dont have counters, either. Char Y basically has minimal counters (tflame is like the only one) and no one thinks its broken. Explain to me that having 20+ checks and around 10 total counters makes a mon with no recovery options and no way to boost stats (which it would love) unless it wants 4MSS? Just want a reason.
you've proven my point. here are the top things that came to your head, one terrible mon, one adequate mon at best (which loses to right coverage), and one mon that already has 4mss that loses if it isn't packing the right move (counter), AND can get bopped by the right coverage. so much for megagross having answers scattered all over the place.
char-y has no counters?
M-Altaria
Char-X (in almost every circumstance)
Heatran-Scarf (in almost every circumstance)
Latios
Latias
Talonflame
Garchomp
SpDef Hippowdon
Chansey
and i'll just stop here, less than half-way through B-rank (also tyranitar wins if it comes in on solar beam)
If you want a reason as to why I think megagross is broken, look at post #519, I described why I view him as broken.
You dont have to provide proof? You're making your pro ban side look like a bunch of idiots. If you arent gonna give me proof, then your argument falls straight on your ass because you are only spewing out opinions now.
...wat....first of all we're all spewing out opinions. I think he's broken, you do not. Secondly, I do not represent those who share the same opinion of me, so no, I am not making anybody on any side look like an idiot. At most I'm making myself look like an idiot. and Thirdly, why should I provide proof as to why having checks/counters does not inherently make a mon not broken when every single mon in the entire game has a check or a counter and plenty of them have been deemed broken within their respective tiers, some of which by you, yourself. i just applied logic and the proof came, just like that. Do you want me to cite a research paper, like?
To be honest, Megagross is really incomparable to previous suspects such as Aegi and Greninja. Greninja had less 4MSS because it didn't have to use STAB on its set. Megagross's 4MSS stems from the fact that it tries to use Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt on each of its sets, which is a problem Greninja didn't have. In addition, it can't run coverage moves to beat its counters without sacrificing its powerful ablilties (Hammer Arm), and is unable to have an effect. If a mon has to sacrifice its abilities in order to get past viable counters, it shouldn't be suspect tested.
Again, it does not have the same abilities as Greninja or Aegislash. Greninja's reason for being banned had to do with how it could run any set specific to cover its team's needs. Megagross can't and so the comparisons should stop there. Megagross's movesets can't even cover its own checks, without decreasing its viability, so it shouldn't be compared to Greninja.
I don't know if I agree that Mega Metagross was broken but I will agree that it was over-centralizing. The previous meta was really stale with Mega Metagross around. Playing in the suspect ladder, teambuilding was less restrictive in that you didn't have to always use Scarf Lando-T on almost every team. Not that Scarf Lando-T is bad, but it's nice to see fast SR sets and bulk sets coming back. Also, even if there is gonna be more fairy spam, it's a lot more tolerable a meta than if Mega Metagross is around. Mega Meta has a nice 110 Base speed, has a diverse enough movepool to have stuff like Grass Knot to hit Slowbro, Ice Punch for Lando-T and Dragonites, Hammer Arm for Ferrothorn, and EQ for Heatran. You always had to be careful about any movepool it could possibly be running since it would just ruin your entire team if you get caught off guard. Things like Mega Diancie, while powerful, have a limited movepool so you can actually prepare for it better since it will have either Protect/bostting move, Moonblast, Diamond Storm, and then Earth Power or HP Fire.
Again I can't say that I'd ban it for being a broken mon, because there are checks to it that work. However, it definitely was overcentralizing OU and it'd be better if it was gone if we want the meta to diversify.
I don’t think I can bring a lot more to the table at this point but I will still share my thoughts. while I’m currently leaning towards ban, I ironically don’t completely agree with the main pro-ban arguments.
Brokenness:
I think we can pretty much all agree that Mega-Metagross is not outright broken. It cannot effortlessly sweep any offense and there are definitely good checks and counters (although not many) that can stop him from dismantling defensive cores on balance/Stall. Additionally, it has to rely on predictions to break a prepared team and generally doesn’t have a great lifespan, so the user has to be careful while making decisions or otherwise lose precious momentum.
Overcentralization / Unhealthy Metagame:
Now this will probably be the main reason for the ban, if it ends up happening and also the reason why I'm hesitating. As opposed to many, I don’t think the metagame is bad right now, I even find it somewhat enjoyable. You can’t be prepared for all the threats, but I don’t think Metagross is the culprit, it’s just a natural and inevitable consequence to the growing number of pokemons and therefore banning it for that wouldn’t be totally justified. If you actually try, you can find tricks to pressure it/make it take damage and take advantage of its lack of recovery, without using the same cores everytime.
However, While I enjoy the game in it’s current state, I acknowledge it is not optimal and I don’t think losing one pokemon could make it worse. So I basically don’t mind banning Mega-Metagross to give a chance for a better metagame to exist.
To be honest, Megagross is really incomparable to previous suspects such as Aegi and Greninja. Greninja had less 4MSS because it didn't have to use STAB on its set. Megagross's 4MSS stems from the fact that it tries to use Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt on each of its sets, which is a problem Greninja didn't have. In addition, it can't run coverage moves to beat its counters without sacrificing its powerful ablilties (Hammer Arm), and is unable to have an effect. If a mon has to sacrifice its abilities in order to get past viable counters, it shouldn't be suspect tested.
Again, it does not have the same abilities as Greninja or Aegislash. Greninja's reason for being banned had to do with how it could run any set specific to cover its team's needs. Megagross can't and so the comparisons should stop there. Megagross's movesets can't even cover its own checks, without decreasing its viability, so it shouldn't be compared to Greninja.
I think you're missing the point of the comparisons to Aegislash and Greninja. They aren't meant to prove "oh look metagross is just like greninja/Aegislash in every way", they serve to show how the current suspect has aspects that played a part in past suspects being deemed "broken" or "unhealthy", which supports that the current suspect is "broken" or "unhealthy".
Greninja and Metagross are similar in that (a) a lot of things that want to switch in have to be wary of some coverage move, and get 2HKO-ed if they switch into the wrong move(s), so you need some sort of core to scout which coverage move its running (b) most things switching in are going to have to take 2 hits because Metagross is faster than a lot of the tier (not to mention most things faster can't afford to take a hit on the switch). Thats where that analogy ends.
Metagross and Aegislash are similar because (a) can switch in on most of the tier a few times and force a switch (ie: combination of good bulk and offensive presence) (b) similar damage output to Aegilash on neutral STAB hits (see calc below), (c) has a similar set of immunities/resistances (d) Centralizes the meta a good bit around itself.
I'm assuming we're going by the 252Atk/252+Spe Metagross, 40Atk/216SpAtk/252+Spe Greninja, and 252hp/252+Sp atk Aegislash, since those are/were the common sets for all of them. We can see that, at least neutrally, Metagross outdamages both Greninja and Aegislash.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 168-199 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 187-222 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It doesn't do the 'broken' things quite like the past suspects did (Greninja getting SE STAB on most everything and Aegislash stopping half the tier cold in its tracks), which is where the analogies fall short, but it can do a mix of them. Metagross can switch in to a certain degree like Aegislash could, but its also got good enough speed to take a huge chunk off of whatever you switched in on before metagross can get hit twice, or hit the switch-in twice before it can do much back, like Greninja could. They're all similar in terms of damage output, but Metagross has the combination of Bulk+Speed that both Greninja and Aegislash lacked.
Basically has qualities similar to aegislash where that steel typing gives it too many exploitable resistances on a pokemon that has too much offensive firepower. There are only about 3 pokemon that can outspeed and ohko metagross without being choice locked (scarfed). That's crazy. Everything else is taking a huge hit either because gross is faster or because they only 2hko. Alternatively, you can stay choice locked into earthquakes and hope it doesn't get you swept. Finally, gross has a move for every single one of his counters. You can run the sets through sweepercalc yourself and see that the only 100% answer, scizor, is killed by the rare but useful hp fire. Leaving no true counters. Compound this with the ability to just luck through checks with atk boosts or flinches and you have something that seems objectively broken.
The problem is, every single S rank threat sounds the same if scrutinized like this. You could post a (secretly fake) suspect thread for any top threat and you'd get 100 posts of complaints for every 5 defensive posts. Diancie is a good example. It's perfectly balanced overall but make a fake suspect thread for it and you'd get a flood of posts about how it gets around its checks and counters with the superman set with rock polish and calm mind and hp fire and all 5 coverage moves too. Anyone who is on the fence will be too lazy to really post to defend it. On the other hand whoever just recently got swept by diancie will post about how broken it is and sheer volume will eventually win out. Someone could post how diancie is always 100% checked by scizor but then ten followup posts about how scizor can't switch in to HP fire, people shouldn't be forced to run scizor, diancie is centralizing the meta, and they've gotten nowhere.
I disagree on the first point of the second paragraph, because the other S Ranked threats don't have those qualities (bulk, power, typing, speed) like Metagross does. Keldeo can't afford to switch in on too many things (even neutral or resisted hits deal a bit of damage), and invested SE hits will guarantee a OHKO on Keldeo by a longshot (even uninvested ones will in some cases). Keldeo also requires either setup (CM) or being choice locked (specs) to get a "wallbreaker-level" damage output leaving it suceptible to giving free switches/getting locked into the wrong move, and its ability leaves something to be desired. Sableye, on the other hand, has excellent bulk and great defensive typing and an awesome ability, but is horrendously slow (takes 2 hits switching in) and requires setup to be an offensive threat. Metagross doesn't have these problems. It's a wallbreaker without setting up, can switch in on neutral/resisted hits a few times before getting worn down, and is sufficiently fast enough to beat most of the tier. None of the S rank threats have the combination of bulk/typing, immediate power, and speed Metagross has. But you already acknowledged metagross's qualities in the first paragraph.
Lastly, the set of champions counter-argument is getting old. No one is saying Metagross is running every move and then some at once. What is being said (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that Metagross has the ability to get past certain checks if it opts to go for one move over another, which is dependant on whatever the teambuilder wants. Your team already has a good way to deal with Slowbro? Well then you can forego Grass Knot and switch it with Ice Punch if you want, now you handle Lando-T/Gliscor better. And while the same can be said about a lot of offensive pokemon (team support lets them run different moves), the list of things Metagross can't deal with is small enough that minimal team support is necessary to deal with whatever metagross can't. Now, we get into the 'centralization bit', because even if the team Metagross is on can already deal with Slowbro, you can't guarantee Metagross isn't running Grass Knot, because that's the teambuilder's choice, so you need cores to safely deal with it. I'm not saying that you cannot play around Metagross, but it does put a fair amount of strain on teambuilding because most of its coverage options are viable and need to be taken seriously because if you don't account for them you may be facing that Metagross set that can handle your checks/counters really well.
I just wanted to add that I don't believe a Pokemon whose usage is outside of the top ten can really be considered over-centralizing when its checks are so commonplace to begin with. Every pro ban argument seems to be moving in this direction, but I don't really see this being all that true. Yes, Metagross is the biggest threat in the tier, but it A: is only used on about 15% of teams on the upper ladder and even fewer lower on the ladder, B: checked by common Pokemon that have plenty of viability with or without Metagross in the metagame, and C: Has been named not broken by the majority of people on this thread.
I understand the comparisons to Aegislash (as both held a lot of Pokemon in check and are very difficult to counter when taking every possible set into account), but Metagross doesn't quite have the versatility of Aegislash or lack of opportunity cost that made Aegislash so easy to slap on any old team (which was part of the reason it became so centralizing). I don't think anyone here is questioning that Mega-Metagross is best Pokemon in OU or that it shouldn't be considered heavily when team building, but it just isn't that tough to beat and doesn't get enough usage to impact the metagame in a significant enough way as to consider it the reason certain Pokemon are unusable in OU.
I just wanted to add that I don't believe a Pokemon who's usage is outside of the top ten can really be considered over-centralizing when its checks are so commonplace to begin with. Every pro ban argument seems to be moving in this direction, but I don't really see this being all that true. Yes, Metagross is the biggest threat in the tier, but it A: is only used on about 15% of teams on the upper ladder and even fewer lower on the ladder, B: checked by common Pokemon that have plenty of viability with or without Metagross in the metagame, and C: Has been named not broken by the majority of people on this thread.
I understand the comparisons to Aegislash (as both held a lot of Pokemon in check and are very difficult to counter when taking every possible set into account), but Metagross doesn't quite have the versatility of Aegislash or lack of opportunity cost that made Aegislash so easy to slap on any old team (which was part of the reason it became so centralizing). I don't think anyone here is questioning that Mega-Metagross is best Pokemon in OU or that it shouldn't be considered heavily when team building, but it just isn't that tough to beat and doesn't get enough usage to impact the metagame in a significant enough way as to consider it the reason certain Pokemon are unusable in OU.
The usage argument is pretty much invalid when it comes to Megas though. Aegislash had an incredibly high usage percentage because there was zero opportunity cost to run it and was good on a number of builds. However, Mega Metagross has the opportunity cost of using your Mega slot, and in ORAS Megas have a huge amount of competition with each other. When you weigh usage data of Megas against everything else in the tier that has no opportunity cost like Landorus-T and Clefable, it becomes a meaningless argument.
This is somewhat true, but doesn't the opportunity cost of Mega Metagross somewhat play into arguments for or against how overcentralizing/broken it is?
The above paragraph was only meant to address the usage argument, not the argument of opportunity cost. However, the Mega opportunity cost argument is very fragile. When Mega Metagross is arguably the best offensive Mega, the opportunity cost argument becomes much weaker. Sure, you lose the ability to run Mega Lopunny, but if you're running a better mega, then what cost is there (just an example, please don't argue how M-Lopunny is better)? The opportunity cost argument grows weaker as the viability and strength of the mon increases. In other words, it's a strong argument when arguing why something like Mega Latios is nowhere near broken (or even good), but it becomes a much worse argument when you argue that something like Mega Metagross or Mega Sableye is not broken.
The usage argument is pretty much invalid when it comes to Megas though. Aegislash had an incredibly high usage percentage because there was zero opportunity cost to run it and was good on a number of builds. However, Mega Metagross has the opportunity cost of using your Mega slot, and in ORAS Megas have a huge amount of competition with each other. When you weigh usage data of Megas against everything else in the tier that has no opportunity cost like Landorus-T and Clefable, it becomes a meaningless argument.
This is somewhat true, but doesn't the opportunity cost of Mega Metagross somewhat play into arguments for or against how overcentralizing/broken it is?
Wait. These arguments are raising a red flag for me. We have occasional arguments that we should not use the suspect ladder as a way to determine if the pokemon suspected should be broken. However, we also get arguments that a pokemon can be banned for creating a negative effect on the metagame. My question is should we consider is a pokemon Uber if the suspect ladder has a more positive effect on the metagame than the previous meta even if the mon suspected does not create a negative effect in the metagame? Before anybody says that Megagross does create a negative effect in the metagame, this is more of a question in general. I have never seen this answered or implied and I'm curious what responses come out of it.
I will be voting not to ban Mega Metagross. Quite simply, I don't think it's broken, and I don't think that the metagame gets appreciably better in its absence.
Metagross is a very hard hitter and is definitely going to be a top, if not the top threat in the metagame going forward, but I don't think he's broken. His power level is decidedly not beyond other major threats in the OU tier. Some quick comparisons:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 183-216 (48 - 56.6%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 196-231 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 246-289 (64.5 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 229-271 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 153-181 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 173-204 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 207-243 (54.3 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Obviously I am not directly comparing Mega Metagross with any of these Pokemon, but it's a good indicator that on power alone, it's not above and beyond a number of other top threats in OU. Metagross has a couple of awesome things going for it - Tough Claws, awesome bulk, 110 speed, usable priority, and a smattering of interesting coverage moves that allow it to bypass a counter each. Some have compared Metagross to Greninja in its ability to "pick its counters" with its moveset. This is misleading; Greninja had only 2 (maybe even 1) required move and its coverage options were strong enough that it picked which one or two Pokemon beat it at all, Metagross usually with its fourth move picks which one or two of its usual counters no longer beat it. Grass Knot is pretty much only useful against Slowbro/Quagsire, Ice Punch against Glis/Land-T, Pursuit against Lati@s, etc., but this is not appreciably different to me than Keldeo's ability to run HP Bug or Latios' ability to run Earthquake. Perhaps the distinction is that Metagross could bypass so many of its counters? But even then, there are solid checks/counters like PDef Mew, Scizor, Bronzong, or Cresselia which beat it no matter what.
The bulk of Metagross is definitely an issue, a SR resistance and huge defense stats make it difficult to revenge kill to be sure. But Spikes do a pretty good job against Metagross as well as other popular megas (I expect an increase in Spikes usage) and wearing it down is not impossible by any means. The bulk is definitely an issue mostly for balance (since Stall tries to wall it outright and HO is likely to be able to OHKO it, balance is what struggles the most to get rid of it before having to take repeated hits) but this is by no means impossible to adapt to. Stuff like bulky RHelm Chomp, Scizor, etc. may have to see more usage but I don't see this as unhealthily centralizing. Comparisons to Aegislash fall flat because Megagross lacks two huge things that made Aegislash's bulk so threatening: Leftovers and King's Shield. Aegislash could often regain health switching into SR on a double switch, slow VoltTurn, immunity etc. with Leftovers recovery and a King's Shield turn, but damage that Megagross takes stays absent some clericing, which is a massive hit to its bulk.
To be honest I think the big thing that makes Megagross so threatening is its STAB typing. OU is simply not well prepared to defensively handle Steel types in particular because there aren't many offensively threatening ones and the answers to more common attacking types like Water, Fighting, Ground, and Dark fall flat against powerful Meteor Mashes, which contributed to Aegislash, Mega-Mawile, and Genesect being banned (I do think all these bans were deserved). I think if we allow the meta to settle a bit things will shake out and teambuilders will start coping with stuff like Mega Metagross better.
As far as "team matchup" goes, it's an overblown concern that banning Metagrossite won't help with. I disagree that the metagame is heavily matchup-based at the moment outside niche stuff like Gothitelle and BP, and the threats in the tier are diverse enough that banning Megagross wouldn't make that much of a dent. The answer to Megagross are not bad Pokemon by any means so there's no "threat bottleneck" that will be released with a ban to allow teams to better handle other top Pokemon.
Wait. These arguments are raising a red flag for me. We have occasional arguments that we should not use the suspect ladder as a way to determine if the pokemon suspected should be broken. However, we also get arguments that a pokemon can be banned for creating a negative effect on the metagame. My question is should we consider is a pokemon Uber if the suspect ladder has a more positive effect on the metagame than the previous meta even if the mon suspected does not create a negative effect in the metagame? Before anybody says that Megagross dies create a negative effect in the metagame, this is more of a question in general. I have never seen this answered or implied and I'm curious what responses come out of it.
I called this one 15 pages ago, this is pretty much a choose the metagame you would like to be in, one that allows a pokemon with a hazardous presence but apparently "restricts" a type from running rampant just by being an eligible slapable choice with great synergy on some cores despite eating the megaslot. Or a rather stable tier that frees team building a bit but ensues a bit of new toy syndrome on the low ladder due to the kids screaming said type is no longer restricted.
I know Metagross negative influence and it's perks, but if we could ignore it and see the new less restrictive metagame as a ban argument (wich by smogon standards shouldn't be as we need to focus on the qualities of said pokemon on the current metagame more) it could work, as long as you avoid the slippery slope argument and status quo fallacies.
It's up to you, I'm biased as hell on pro ban, but anyone opinion is worth as much as mine. Cast your vote based on your experience on the ladder and core team building opportunities both metagame allow.
The usage argument is pretty much invalid when it comes to Megas though. Aegislash had an incredibly high usage percentage because there was zero opportunity cost to run it and was good on a number of builds. However, Mega Metagross has the opportunity cost of using your Mega slot, and in ORAS Megas have a huge amount of competition with each other. When you weigh usage data of Megas against everything else in the tier that has no opportunity cost like Landorus-T and Clefable, it becomes a meaningless argument.
EDIT:
The above paragraph was only meant to address the usage argument, not the argument of opportunity cost. However, the Mega opportunity cost argument is very fragile. When Mega Metagross is arguably the best offensive Mega, the opportunity cost argument becomes much weaker. Sure, you lose the ability to run Mega Lopunny, but if you're running a better mega, then what cost is there (just an example, please don't argue how M-Lopunny is better)? The opportunity cost argument grows weaker as the viability and strength of the mon increases. In other words, it's a strong argument when arguing why something like Mega Latios is nowhere near broken (or even good), but it becomes a much worse argument when you argue that something like Mega Metagross or Mega Sableye is not broken.
Megagross may be the best physically nonsettupping sweeper, but many megas beat him in other ways. He is not a mixed sweeper like Mega Diancie, not specially offensive like Zard Y, not a good set up sweeper like Zard X, not as good defensively as M-Sableye. So not being able to use these Pokemon when using Megagross is barely a downside? I disagree with that. If Megagross is much lower on the usage ladder because he uses up the mega slot, then using up the mega slot is a considerable disadvantage.
For example, Rotom-Wash prevents you from using other Rotoms, yet he is pretty high because (and this is where your argument would be correct) that is not much of a disadvantage because he outclasses the other Rotom's so much. When your argument does apply the usage ladder will reflect that. That is why Rotom-Wash is so much higher than the other Rotoms. However obviously Megagross is not like Rotom-Wash in this regard since Megagross is not superior to all other Mega's in many ways, so when using Megagross there is a whole bunch of good Pokemon that only your opponents can use, which is one of Megagrosses downsides and should definitely be considered when voting.
This is my first suspect test, so please excuse me if I fuck up/leave something out. I got reqs a couple of days before posting this, and I am definitely voting BAN. Mega metagross is ridiculously powerful. It's attack is amazing, and boosted by tough claws it's ridiculous. There is literally no switching in to this pokemon. The only pokemon I can think of that can even think of switching into mega metagross is mega scizor and hell, all you have to do is slap hp fire on metagross and mega scizor is no longer a switch in. Metagross has amazing coverage and it's mega evolution hits a great speed tier. But this mon is not only an offensive beast, it can take hits like a champ. There are very few pokemon that can revenge mega metagross. Hell, scarf landorus-t can't even ohko megagross without rocks or a hasty nature.
Megagross may be the best physically nonsettupping sweeper, but many megas beat him in other ways. He is not a mixed sweeper like Mega Diancie, not specially offensive like Zard Y, not a good set up sweeper like Zard X, not as good defensively as M-Sableye. So not being able to use these Pokemon when using Megagross is barely a downside? I disagree with that. If Megagross is much lower on the usage ladder because he uses up the mega slot, then using up the mega slot is a considerable disadvantage.
For example, Rotom-Wash prevents you from using other Rotoms, yet he is pretty high because (and this is where your argument would be correct) that is not much of a disadvantage because he outclasses the other Rotom's so much. When your argument does apply the usage ladder will reflect that. That is why Rotom-Wash is so much higher than the other Rotoms. However obviously Megagross is not like Rotom-Wash in this regard since Megagross is not superior to all other Mega's in many ways, so when using Megagross there is a whole bunch of good Pokemon that only your opponents can use, which is one of Megagrosses downsides and should definitely be considered when voting.
You are right in that Mega Metagross does not outclass any of the mons you mentioned and that they all have their uses. But, if you think about it, are they even similar enough to where you can say that there's an opportunity cost? Mega Diancie and Mega Charizard Y have very different targets than Mega Metagross since they primarily hit from the special spectrum, Mega Charizard X is more of a set-up sweeper and usually requires a turn of set-up, and Mega Sableye is primarily used either on Stall or as more of a utility mon. Assuming that you chose your Mega at the end of teambuilding as opposed to building around the Mega, none of these mons will really compete for your Mega spot because their niches are too distinct. It would be like saying that when choosing your tools for a job, the hammer is competing with the screwdriver and the drill for the job of putting a nail in a board: no one tool outclasses the other tools, but you know from the get-go that the hammer is the best tool for that job.
Ultimately, as you said, MegaGross is arguably the best physical sweeper that requires no set-up. Thus, there's no real opportunity cost because while other Megas do their jobs well, and while the jobs the other Megas do are important, few, if any, do Mega Metagross's job as well as Mega Metagross.
I don't get why people use HP Fire MMeta as an argument
It literally hits only Scizor (I'm pretty sure Ferrothorn can actually heal off the damage w/ Leech Seed + Protect), while providing absolutely nothing else coverage-wise. MMeta can barely afford to run HP Fire just because it needs the coverage, if you drop Grass Knot, Slowbro, Hippo and any physical wall not weak to its STABs wall the living hell out of it, if you drop Hammer Arm for some reason, you're walled by Steel types that can easily take a weak 60 BP move coming off 105 Special Attack with minimal investment and on top of that, it isn't even boosted by Tough Claws. And another crippling issue with HP Fire is that you are guaranteed to lose speed ties with other base 110 pokemon that aren't running HP Fire. Grass Knot is good because it actually gets a TC boost and most pokemon it hits are usually hit by a 80+ BP move
HP Fire is garbage coverage and has no place of Mega Metagross because you're wasting its well needed coverage that could hit 5+ pokemon for dealing with only 1 pokemon
