np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

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In what world is M-Gross an opportunity cost by all of these you mentioned WebBowser >_>? Also classify a set up sweeper exactly because M-Gross has access to Hone Claws along with Agility / Rock Polish so it's silly to actually argue that he sucks as a set up sweeper when in reality it really doesn't unless you're running like 3 of the shaky checks to it all at once to combat it, making you weaker to the archetypes M-Gross will fall under. This isn't a case for anything specifically but I must be misinterpreting something if you're seriously considering that there is some sort of huge competition for a mega slot with M-Gross v everything else cause I must be seriously missing the logic you're presenting here.

Hone Claws is honestly really lackluster. Hammer arm, one of his better coverage moves, lowers it's speed upon use, which really sucks if you're going for a sweep. Bullet Punch, even at +1, is not going to allow it to bypass any of it's common revenge killers (which is now much more pertinent since mmeta bothered to take a turn to setup), and a lot of his defensive checks still check him at +1 (he's probably not running grass knot if he's running hone claws, so slowbro still works, rotom-w can still take a hit and burn back, whirlwind skarm still doesn't give a crap, etc). Basically, hone claws doesn't allow him to bypass most of his common checks while at the same time taking one of his precious free turns to setup. Compare to SD talonflame, who at +2 can bypass a lot of things that would normally check him like Scarf Lando-T, Skarm and mega Gyarados.

Rock Polish, while better, isn't amazing, because most of his checks are on the defensive side anyway. He already has the bulk to take on most scarfers, but rock polish doesn't help out at all against common checks like ferro, slowbro, and rotom-w. It does allow him to beat lando-t(assuming ice punch), but the entire point of setting up is that you hand your opponent a free turn to bypass some checks, and speed boosters beating scarfers is nothing new(remember back when agility duck-z was dominating the meta? I don't either). The most obvious comparison to make is to Mega-Diancie, who does not have the bulk to take on most scarfers and therefore really appreciates the speed boost.

And then we have these mons that can boost both attack AND speed at the same time using this nifty move called "dragon dance", some of them are pretty bulky too!(hello Mega Gyarados)

Alright, sarcasm aside, Mega Metagross is primarily a bruiser, he comes in, hits stuff, and leaves when he feels like it. In this he excels and if he is broken, it's because of his capabilities as one. He also has a few other nice utility niches like pursuit trapping, stealth rock, and fast priority (now that I think of it, why has nobody on this thread mentioned his potential as an offensive SR setter? That actually sounds pretty neat). His sweeping capabilities are lackluster because he doesn't have enough power to be an effective speed booster and hone claws is a crummy setup move in this day and age where if you aren't boosting at least 2 relevant stats at a time, you're wasting your time and free turns(which are at a premium in this game).

Anyway, as for competition, he faces competition from any mega that isn't a bruiser, so walls like mega sable and mega bro or sweepers like megazard-x or mega pinsir can easily find themselves a niche. Even as a bruiser, his typing leaves him vulnerable to common attacking types like ground, fire, or dark, meaning that depending on the teamcomp, you may prefer a different mega like mega venusaur (trades offense and speed for much, much better typing and a sweet defensive ability) or bulky zard-x (amazing typing AND amazing power in exchange for speed and defense). These megas are still plenty viable and I even run into them at times (heck, my team doesn't even run a mega anymore, but when it did, it was bulky SD zard-x).


So yes, the opportunity cost for using him is in fact real, much more so then previous mega suspects.
 
If I could vote, I would say ban without any hesitation.

I have 5 criteria to identify an uber :

1)Very high AND good stats. Yes, having high stats doesn't forcibly mean that they're good. For example, I prefer having a pokemon with 100 in all stats rather than a pokemon with 695 in speed and 5 everywhere else (I know, I'm exaggerating, but you get what I mean).

2)A special ability that will be useful to the pokemon in most situations (so, not in the same style as Keldeo with Justified).

3)An excellent double-type, offensively and/or defensively.

4)A varied movepool which either allows the pokemon to excel in many roles, to become unpredictable and/or to make its supposed "counters" not reliable at 100 %.

5)The ability to destroy a whole OU team without much, if any, support.

So, let's see Metagross-Mega.

Good stats ? Check. I prefer fighting a Mighty Glacier* like Kyurem-Black rather than a Lightning Bruiser* like Metagross-Mega.

Useful ability ? Check. It's moves are already powerful on their own. With a free Life Orb, it destroys everything.

Excellent double type ? Semi-Check. Defensively, it's definitely the case. Offensively...not so much (though it's still satisfying to defeat the Fairy mons).

Movepool so large and unpredictable that the "counters" aren't even guaranteed to switch in safely, let alone defeating it ? Check. This thing literally pick its counters...yes, Metagross-Mega is just that badass :cool:

Autonomy ? Check. Pretty much have a move for each of it's weaknessess. Dark scares the kids ? It doesn't scares Metagross-Mega, it just break the darkness with it's Hammer Arm. Fire burns ? Metagross-Mega doesn't need to touch the flame, it just punches the ground, provoking an Earthquake. The fire decided to fly ? Ok, then it punches a wall, provoking a Rock Slide. A ghost can't be punched ? Metagross-Mega doesn't need to punch it, it create a Shadow Ball and throw it to the Ghost. Ground ? Metagross-Mega just cool down the game with Ice Punch.

Conclusion : Metagross-Mega is just too cool to stay with OU pokemons. Welcome to the world of badasses.

Jokes aside, Metagross-Mega is too powerful to stay with OU Pokemons. I know that some of you like Metagross, me too I like it. But it's precisely because I like it that I think it deserve to a tier where it can finally find an opponent with the level rather than stay in a tier where it's strength only cause only unbalanced battles and it's centralization.

Notes :

*Mighty Glacier : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyGlacier
*Lightning Bruiser : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LightningBruiser
 
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I don't really post much these days but as I now have reqs I shall give my personal opinion and how I will vote.

Its easy to see why people think MMeta is broken when you just look at its raw stats. It has a great 110 speed tier, wonderful defenses, a good defensive typing and access to a tasty 145 attack plus tough claws. And the combination of all these things does make MMeta a top threat in OU. However as soon as I started using it and fighting against it its flaws became very clear to me which imo are more then enough to keep it balanced.

People have often compared MMeta with the recently banned Greninja due to its unpredictability in move-sets and being able to pick its checks and counters. While this is true to a degree MMeta simply cannot sweep though teams in the way Ninja could. This is partly due to its offensive move-pool and the severe lack of high BP moves, most of which do not pass beyond 100 (and have less than ideal accuracy). Therefore despite its high attack I have never succeeded in sweeping though a team (unless the team was severely weakened in which case any fast sweeper like MSceptile could have done the same job). The only way to up its power to sweeper level is to either use hone claws or agility, but then its checks and counters become so numerous that most teams can wall it completely.

A common counter argument is that due to how bulky MMeta is and how good its typing is it can come in again and again until its checks and counters are worn down. This again is something I do not agree with. Yes its typing is great, but it has 4 weakness to the most common offensive moves in the meta-game (fire, ground, dark and ghost). Therefore most offensive mons will likely have at least on move that is super effective to it, while the defensive ones can take a few hits and dish out a few themselves. I have always been shocked how quickly MMeta gets worn down in a match and combined with with not amazing attacking power and good but not great special defense it often dies well before the opposing team is crippled. MMeta is also slow before it Mega evolves which means its easy to remove a good chunk of health from it before it gets going.

At no point in my team-building have I ever given Mega-Metagross a single thought, simply because its checks and counters are so numerous and commonly used in OU that I always seem to have at least 2 pretty good answers to it. It leaves me baffled how people can say its a centralizing force. Yes its a powerful Pokemon but it does not need any special treatment for your team to deal with him, unlike Ninja who could steamroll though almost everything unless you have a solid answer. In fact I see other S rank and A+ Pokemon such as Keldeo, Bisharp, Landorus I and others to be far more threatening to any team than MMeta. With MMeta you simply bring in something that has decent physical bulk and access to one of its common weaknesses and you will give it significant trouble. Even 110 speed Mons that should lose to MMeta can do heaps of damage to it if they win the speed tie( Lati@s, Gengar, Diancie etc) and it can easily be out-speed and killed by common scarf users.

This is the most easy No-ban I have ever given since I joined Smogon. It does not hit really hard, its common weaknesses make up for its high bulk and checks and counters are easy to be found on every team. Even things its supposed to beat can cripple it if they have full HP or you win the speed tie. There is not one single aspect to MMeta that is broken, its just a very good Mega.
 
Alright, after seeing arguments for a good 20+ pages, I think I have to reconsider my thoughts.

Yes, Megagross has very good base stats. And yes, it has very good typing and a very good movepool. But it isn't as broken as I originally thought. Steel/Psychic is a great type defensively, but not as good offensively. It hits only 5 types for super effective damage and Psychic is walled by Dark. With Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt basically required on every set it doesn't leave a lot of room for coverage options, or Bullet Punch. Because of this, Megagross has what I believe to be referred to as 4MSS. Or something. If it get's burned, Flame Body, Will-O-Wisp, or otherwise, it's basically shut down unless you have a Heal Bell/Aromatherapy mon. Although immune to stat drops in base form, it can be Intimidate'd, Sticky Web'd, etc. in mega form. Lack of recovery (unless it gets Rest, but even then Rest is not very good on Megagross because it either needs to stay asleep and be punished, or run Sleep Talk, further giving it less coverage options.) doesn't help either, as any damage it takes is going to stay, outside of Wish Passing. Bug/Steel types such as Forretress and Scizor(and Mega Scizor) basically wall it, and it has to run HP Fire if it even wants a chance of dealing with them. And if it does, it's losing speed-wise to every other max speed base 110. And Scizor gets Pursuit. And I'm not sure where restricting teambuilding comes into play because my current OU team (Serperior/Azumarill/Gengar/Tyranitar/Skarmory/Mandibuzz) deals with it without even thinking about it. Unless you are severely bad at teambuilding, this thing SHOULD NOT be giving you trouble. Not much anyway.
After the teambuilding argument comes the too many threats argument I've seen within this thread. If we're seriously going by "There's too many threats to prepare for, we should pick them off one by one." then there's some problems. If Threat A checks/counters Threat B, and Threat B checks/counters Threat C, etc etc etc, then would that or would that not be a balanced metagame?
Plus, Ditto and Shedinja work great. Sometimes. Possibly. Watch out for Rock Slide and HP Fire though, Shedinja users. :P
I would like to vote on this test but I'm afraid I won't make the COIL requirement. If I could though, it'd be NO BAN.
 
If I could vote, I would say ban without any hesitation.

I have 5 criteria to identify an uber :

1)Very high AND good stats. Yes, having high stats doesn't forcibly mean that they're good. For example, I prefer having a pokemon with 100 in all stats rather than a pokemon with 695 in speed and 5 everywhere else (I know, I'm exaggerating, but you get what I mean).

2)A special ability that will be useful to the pokemon in most situations (so, not in the same style as Keldeo with Justified).

3)An excellent double-type, offensively and/or defensively.

4)A varied movepool which either allows the pokemon to excel in many roles, to become unpredictable and/or to make its supposed "counters" not reliable at 100 %.

5)The ability to destroy a whole OU team without much, if any, support.

So, let's see Metagross-Mega.

Good stats ? Check. I prefer fighting a Mighty Glacier* like Kyurem-Black rather than a Lightning Bruiser* like Metagross-Mega.

Useful ability ? Check. It's moves are already powerful on their own. With a free Life Orb, it destroys everything.

Excellent double type ? Semi-Check. Defensively, it's definitely the case. Offensively...not so much (though it's still satisfying to defeat the Fairy mons).

Movepool so large and unpredictable that the "counters" aren't even guaranteed to switch in safely, let alone defeating it ? Check. This thing literally pick its counters...yes, Metagross-Mega is just that badass :cool:

Autonomy ? Check. Pretty much have a move for each of it's weaknessess. Dark scares the kids ? It doesn't scares Metagross-Mega, it just break the darkness with it's Hammer Arm. Fire burns ? Metagross-Mega doesn't need to touch the flame, it just punches the ground, provoking an Earthquake. The fire decided to fly ? Ok, then it punches a wall, provoking a Rock Slide. A ghost can't be punched ? Metagross-Mega doesn't need to punch it, it create a Shadow Ball and throw it to the Ghost. Ground ? Metagross-Mega just cool down the game with Ice Punch.

Conclusion : Metagross-Mega is just too cool to stay with OU pokemons. Welcome to the world of badasses.

Jokes aside, Metagross-Mega is too powerful to stay with OU Pokemons. I know that some of you like Metagross, me too I like it. But it's precisely because I like it that I think it deserve to a tier where it can finally find an opponent with the level rather than stay in a tier where it's strength only cause only unbalanced battles and it's centralization.

Notes :

*Mighty Glacier : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyGlacier
*Lightning Bruiser : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LightningBruiser

While MMeta does indeed fit the definition of "lightning bruiser", in that it has strong attack, defense, and speed, that alone does not make a mon broken. First off, mmeta will never, ever need to run shadow ball because STABs take care of virtually every reasonable ghost out there except sableye (which shadow ball doesn't hit very hard anyway). Rock Slide is really only good for hitting volc and talonflame, and frankly zen headbutt is just as good since neither of them are known for their impressive bulk. HP fire has been discussed to death as well and is rather unimpressive even against the things it's supposed to hit.

Furthermore, mmeta has in fact been known to have a great deal of difficulty bypassing some of his checks. Scarf Lando-T can revenge given a small amount of prior damage. Scarf Victini and Scizor have been brought up multiple times as hard counters to mmeta. Specs Analytic Zone can make a fantastic mmeta lure:

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 280-330 (81.3 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 289-342 (96 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Slowking and Sableye both hardwall mmeta, SP defensive Hippo is a solid check, Skarm can phaze all day, phys defensive garchomp is becoming popular to counter mmeta, he has plenty of checks and even a handful of hard counters. I would not call him "autonomous".


DoubleMP Just an FYI, but virtually anything that can learn TM moves can run restalk. Also, the reason nobody runs shedninja is that it gets screwed over by hazards and sand.
 
specs analytic magnezone is trash. don't use it, even as a lure. the only reason youd want to use magnezone in ou is for its trapping ability, and analytic takes that away from it. please dont use analytic mag
It's actually quite effective at dealing with things thanks to its slow speed for Analytic to take advantage of. It can leave a major dent in Megagross and Megagross can't escape that dent.
 
It's actually quite effective at dealing with things thanks to its slow speed for Analytic to take advantage of. It can leave a major dent in Megagross and Megagross can't escape that dent.
Um, if you have Analytic, you don't have Magnet Pull, so yeah it can. Also, Hammer Arm and Earthquake are a thing.

EDIT:
It doesn't need to OHKO though. It's safer than running Specs because you'd get destroyed by EQ. Then Zone does its job and another Poke can finish it off.
Yes, it does need to OHKO. A combination of Zen Headbutt + Hammer Arm is a guaranteed kill even on max HP variants, and because it outspeeds you only get 1 shot. Please stop arguing for the sake of arguing because it's clear you aren't even running proper calcs, and arguing whether 1 mon checks a suspect is a pointless argument that proves nothing in regards to whether or not something is broken.
 
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Um, if you have Analytic, you don't have Magnet Pull, so yeah it can. Also, Hammer Arm and Earthquake are a thing.
Whoops, forgot I was talking about one ability and included the other. :P
But if it was a 1v1, neither switched in manually (only after something has died) Then a 252 HP Magne can survive a Hammer Arm and Air Balloon is a thing. Whatever though, Magnezone is a neutral party on Megagross checks. :| I think, at least.
 
Whoops, forgot I was talking about one ability and included the other. :P
But if it was a 1v1, neither switched in manually (only after something has died) Then a 252 HP Magne can survive a Hammer Arm and Air Balloon is a thing. Whatever though, Magnezone is a neutral party on Megagross checks. :| I think, at least.
air balloon causes zone to miss out on the OHKO.
 
It doesn't need to OHKO though. It's safer than running Specs because you'd get destroyed by EQ. Then Zone does its job and another Poke can finish it off.
While I am anti-ban for mega meta, that logic and argument isn't very good in my opinion, because you are sacrificing a teamslot to get a poke who's job is to die to metagross to allow another poke to revenge kill. Thats flawed in my opinion and magnezone shouldn't be used as a megagross check unless its scarfed.
 

Merritt

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Whoops, forgot I was talking about one ability and included the other. :P
But if it was a 1v1, neither switched in manually (only after something has died) Then a 252 HP Magne can survive a Hammer Arm and Air Balloon is a thing. Whatever though, Magnezone is a neutral party on Megagross checks. :| I think, at least.
Not so.

If Magnezone lacks Choice Specs, it cannot OHKO, no matter the investment.

252+ SpA Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 193-228 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

For this reason, however, Magnezone has its only chance. By running Air Balloon it can avoid the obvious OHKO from EQ, but Hammer Arm will certainly 2HKO if not OHKO... But Magnezone needs to run 235 speed to outpace it after a since hammer arm drop. This necessitates Timid, but fortunately not quite 252 investment. This means it can run only 232+ speed. This leaves it, with max special attack investment, 24 HP.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 280-330 (97.5 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

You'd hope that maybe, since you're going for the 2HKO, Magnet Pull will still suffice? Well...

252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 135-160 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

You need analytic to 2HKO. However, the second attack (since you outspeed in order to win) doesn't get the boost. So let's find the optimal EV spread to make sure you will 2HKO after one analytic boosted T-Bolt and one non-boosted.

After EVs calculations, the optimal spread is 72 HP, 204 SpA, and 232 Spd, as that gets the 2HKO 99.9% of the time.

The calcs.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 280-330 (93.6 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

204 SpA Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 169-201 (56.1 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

204 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 132-156 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO

Magnezone still loses 62.5% of the time...

Or the Metagross player agrees to take damage and uses any other move first. Air Balloon Magnezone will not win against Mega Metagross.
 
Whoops, forgot I was talking about one ability and included the other. :P
But if it was a 1v1, neither switched in manually (only after something has died) Then a 252 HP Magne can survive a Hammer Arm and Air Balloon is a thing. Whatever though, Magnezone is a neutral party on Megagross checks. :| I think, at least.
The 1v1 argument again? It's obvious that if you run Max HP+Air Balloon Magnezone you are going to take a hit from M-Metagross, then what? you can't do more than 60% without Specs, you will get 2HKO if it has EQ or Hammer arm no metter what.
Air Balloon/Max HP is bad anyway, you are just using it to handle M-Metagross so the argument is not reasonable.
 
calcs n' stuff
I had already said in this 1v1 situation, damage is dealt.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 280-330 (81.3 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Survives a Hammer Arm, Air Balloon pops.
252+ SpA Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 193-228 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Does major damage back.
At this point that is all it could do and unless Megagross misses a Hammer Arm, it's GG.

We good now? Okay. I am going to stop arguing about Magnezone in this thread as it will most likely not lead to anything important.
 
I suggested specs analytic magnezone as a possible lure to non-EQ mmeta sets, not as a hard check. Given that it is sacrificing magnet pull, it needs to be useful for a heck of a lot more then simply luring certain mmeta sets. I would argue that in addition to luring mmeta, specs analytic zone can lure in bulky grounds expecting to take a thunderbolt and nail them with flash cannon (For example, he ohkos phys defensive lando-T and gliscor on the switch, which regular specs zone cannot do).

Regardless, the thread is getting derailed. I think that we can agree that specs analytic zone is a shaky mmeta check at best, and that's all that matters for now.
 

Pendulum Swing

It's yours.
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Yesterday I obtained 2700 coil to vote, and I'm going to vote Not Ban.
It has very good stats and typing, good coverage and STABs, tough claws, and even a usefull ability before it megaevolves. I admit Metagross deserves a suspect. But there are some counters and a good amount of checks for stopping him. Don't say even greninja had a lot of checks, or MMeta is similar to MSalamence and MKangaskhan 'cause you're wrong. You don't have to loose 2 pokèmon only for scouting his set, and it can't do 2HKO to the entire metagame. Metagross can't sweep entire teams alone like the other three. Some people thinks "It's not unstoppable, but we need a ban 'cause now every team get rekted (cit.) from a mega of ORAS and we must balance the new metagame", but they're wrong too. Just think how MSableye defeats alone stall and how MLopunny kills H.OFF (And better we don't talk about Altaria and Diancie). I say is the most easy new oras mega to deal with. If 2-3 pokèmon already get banned MAYBE i could vote for ban. Anyway I see the majority of post are pro-ban so I guess my future vote won't be a problem.

ss
 
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Water Drone

I COULD BE BANNED!
I have already achieved reqs and confirmed them, so I think I'll post my thoughts now.

I'm leaning towards banning Mega Metagross, given its good coverage, abiity, and stats. One thing about metagross is that even some of its more solid checks and switchins like Slowbro and Ferrothorn and Skarmory are beaten by its coverage moves and cant repeatedly take hits. Another thing is that really only a few things can reliably switchin repeatedly, namely M-Scizor, but thats what teammates are for. The fact that Metagross whittles down its switchins with such ease is problematic. Not to mention it practically single-handedly tears apart Hyper Offense teams. Mege Metagross is so powerful in this metagame, and while I dont necessarily agree that it is broken, I don't like how the current metagame is shaping out. Currently I liked the suspect ladder a lot more than the ladder with Mega Metagross, but some other pokemon such as Mega Diancie stand out as suspect worthy to me now. Ultimately, I believe banning Mega Metagross will be one step closer to a healthier metagame. Feel free to disagree and/or discuss.
 
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I'll try to keep this short.

First off, let me just admit that I'm bias towards pro-ban because I want Pinsir to get better in the meta. I'm not going to beat around the bush on my main reason for voting Metagrossite to leave OU. And I'm mentioning this because I don't want to hide, or sugarcoat my bias, like other guys in the thread. It annoys me when people try to act completely neutral on this stuff because it's impossible to do.

Anyway, my other reason for voting ban on Metagross is because the combination of Mega Metagross + Mega Lopunny within the tier is neutering Hyper Offense as a viable playstyle, not just challenging it in a competitive way. I always hear people preach about how the metagame should keep all playstyles on equal footing (*cough* Deoxys-D ban *cough*), and right now, that doesn't ring true for HO.

*Please don't suggest that I add slowbro or hippowdown to a Hyper Offense team.

The main problem with Metagross from a HO perspective (besides being very bulky, having priority, huge attack, resisting SR, and being faster than most HO mons) is that he has resistances in most forms of priority, which means reliably revenge killing this 110 Speed Behemoth without a scarfed mon or jolly talonflame is a bitch. Scarfed mons are often locked into a ground, dark, or fire move which we all know is a very poor choice, and jolly t-flame without a band doesn't even come close to OHKOing meta (if Meta stays in of course). Also, Gengar speed ties with the guy, so even that answer is still a shaky check. So in theory...

1. Bisharp
2. Gyarados

are the the only other NON-MEGA, HYPER OFFENSIVE MONS, that are LOW RISK checks for Mega Metagross. These guys resist Bullet Punch, don't have to be locked into a scarf, don't require sand, don't depend on a scald burn, and aren't bait for flying types/bulky mons. But too bad Gross + Keldeo exists to get rid of bisharp, and Gyarados is SR weak.

But why do I emphasize low risk so much? Well its because HO wants to minimize the amount of free turns given to the opponent, and scarfed revenge killers create free turns.

Anyway, Steel/Psychic typing is amazing against HO due to key resistances in

Ice, Flying, Rock, Normal, Fairy, and Dragon, plus a neutrality to Fighting (which is highly physical, and Metagross is very physically bulky). Metagross is only vulnerable to Sucker Punch, which isn't even reliable damage.

Long story short, I'm voting ban partly because I think Mega Meta smashes HO too much.
 
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Im just going to say that Megagross is being a bit overhyped. He has very solid checks, and common ones (lando-t, rotom-w, scarftran) as well as having pretty solid answers on all playstyles. For stall, rocky helmet or counter skarmory, for balance, bulky mega scizor, for HO, victini, unless he's carrying the rare and mediocre eq. So I'm in favor of spiderman staying, and although he's overcentralizing he is much more manageable than previous banned mons.
 
So basically everything about megagross has been said already and talked into the ground in this wonderful thread, but I'll just leave my 2 cents here. Megagross is bork. Its lack of reliable counters and offensive checks make it a menace in the OU metagame. It's not as overpowered as mons like Mega Mence, that are just flat out blatantly bork; it's more like Mega Mawile in that it is just a bit too much for the tier to handle because of its bulk and power, but Gross also has great speed on top of that to matchup better against offense. This is a mon that is extremely low risk and very high reward, capable tearing apart all archetypes of play when used correctly. Ban
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
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I'll try to keep this short.

First off, let me just admit that I'm bias towards pro-ban because I want Pinsir to get better in the meta. I'm not going to beat around the bush on my main reason for voting Metagrossite to leave OU. And I'm mentioning this because I don't want to hide, or sugarcoat my bias, like other guys in the thread. It annoys me when people try to act completely neutral on this stuff because it's impossible to do.

Anyway, my other reason for voting ban on Metagross is because the combination of Mega Metagross + Mega Lopunny within the tier is neutering Hyper Offense as a viable playstyle, not just challenging it in a competitive way. I always hear people preach about how the metagame should keep all playstyles on equal footing (*cough* Deoxys-D ban *cough*), and right now, that doesn't ring true for HO.

*Please don't suggest that I add slowbro or hippowdown to a Hyper Offense team.

The main problem with Metagross from a HO perspective (besides being very bulky, having priority, huge attack, resisting SR, and being faster than most HO mons) is that he has resistances in most forms of priority, which means reliably revenge killing this 110 Speed Behemoth without a scarfed mon or jolly talonflame is a bitch. Scarfed mons are often locked into a ground, dark, or fire move which we all know is a very poor choice, and jolly t-flame without a band doesn't even come close to OHKOing meta (if Meta stays in of course). Also, Gengar speed ties with the guy, so even that answer is still a shaky check. So in theory...

1. Bisharp
2. Gyarados

are the the only other NON-MEGA, HYPER OFFENSIVE MONS, that are LOW RISK checks for Mega Metagross. These guys resist Bullet Punch, don't have to be locked into a scarf, don't require sand, don't depend on a scald burn, and aren't bait for flying types/bulky mons. But too bad Gross + Keldeo exists to get rid of bisharp, and Gyarados is SR weak.

But why do I emphasize low risk so much? Well its because HO wants to minimize the amount of free turns given to the opponent, and scarfed revenge killers create free turns.

Anyway, Steel/Psychic typing is amazing against HO due to key resistances in

Ice, Flying, Rock, Normal, Fairy, and Dragon, plus a neutrality to Fighting (which is highly physical, and Metagross is very physically bulky). Metagross is only vulnerable to Sucker Punch, which isn't even reliable damage.

Long story short, I'm voting ban partly because I think Mega Meta smashes HO too much.
T Wave Klefki, Fire Blast Azelf, Mega Manectric, Adamant CB Talon, Mega Alakazam, Sash Mamo, Mega Sharpedo, SR Excadrill, Bulky mega Zard X, Mega Scizor, Specs Raikou, and Thundurus are all options you can take advantage of on hyper offense teams that can do massive damage to/cripple Mega Metagross. This isn't even counting the number of Scarf Pokemon that you apparently want to ignore, despite the fact that Scarf Pokemon are staples on HO teams considering they're the only option besides priority/T Wave that HO teams can deal with sweepers. They are a necessary evil, so to speak. Or are you also in favor of banning Mega Charizard X, Dragonite, and Mega Gyarados? The list of offensive checks nearly doubles adding in Scarf mons. You, as a HO player, should know that that style of team depends on strategically sacking Pokemon OR risk v reward based "predictions" in order to get free switches to set up when faced with offensive threats. You cannot tell me that Mega Metagross is any more difficult to deal with than Mega Lopunny is for Offense. In fact, Fake Out + Scrappy + incredible speed + possibility of Baton Pass for momentum + possibility of substitute makes Mega Lop even MORE of a threat to offense than Mega Metagross. I simply don't buy the fact that Mega Meta is too restrictive for Hyper Offense to deal with it. Just because Italian Offense isn't the best ladder team in the world anymore doesn't mean we should ban a Pokemon to ubers.
 
T Wave Klefki, Fire Blast Azelf, Mega Manectric, Adamant CB Talon, Mega Alakazam, Sash Mamo, Mega Sharpedo, SR Excadrill, Bulky mega Zard X, Mega Scizor, Specs Raikou, and Thundurus are all options you can take advantage of on hyper offense teams that can do massive damage to/cripple Mega Metagross. This isn't even counting the number of Scarf Pokemon that you apparently want to ignore, despite the fact that Scarf Pokemon are staples on HO teams considering they're the only option besides priority/T Wave that HO teams can deal with sweepers. They are a necessary evil, so to speak. Or are you also in favor of banning Mega Charizard X, Dragonite, and Mega Gyarados? The list of offensive checks nearly doubles adding in Scarf mons. You, as a HO player, should know that that style of team depends on strategically sacking Pokemon OR risk v reward based "predictions" in order to get free switches to set up when faced with offensive threats. You cannot tell me that Mega Metagross is any more difficult to deal with than Mega Lopunny is for Offense. In fact, Fake Out + Scrappy + incredible speed + possibility of Baton Pass for momentum + possibility of substitute makes Mega Lop even MORE of a threat to offense than Mega Metagross. I simply don't buy the fact that Mega Meta is too restrictive for Hyper Offense to deal with it. Just because Italian Offense isn't the best ladder team in the world anymore doesn't mean we should ban a Pokemon to ubers.
1. Talon wants to run jolly nature in order to outspeed magnezone, raikou, and thundurus
.
2. Why are you listing Mega Pokemon to take care of a Mega? If I have to use Megas to check a mega then that screams broken to me.

3. Sash Mamo? Ok, I'm really confused about this one. Metagross is a late game sweeper, Mamo is more of a suicide/early lead.

4. Choice Items are not a necessary evil. Many mons have priority/weather to deal with boosted threats especially in Generation 6. In addition, locking yourself into choice moves that hit Mega Metagross super effectively is just asking for trouble. Heatran (which is a staple on many teams atm) would love to eat up your Fire Blast. Keldeo and Azu say the same as well. Being locked in Earthquake is no small deal because so many guys have immunity to ground type attacks. Dark is somewhat better but is still destroyed by fairies. Also, choice locked electric isn't all that great as well (or shadow ball on Raikou for that matter).

5. I said the combination of Lopunny + Metagross. And who knows if Lopunny will ever get banned/suspected? Right now, Metagross is the open target, and I want to snipe that guy while he's available.

6. I don't think you read my post thoroughly if you're mentioning Sand Rush Excadrill. Also, Fire Blast Azelf doesn't even OHKO Metagross. And isn't Azelf a suicide lead who 99% of the time always goes out first. Metagross cleans up later in the game.

7. T-wave klefki and thundy are good cripplers. I'll give you that from the list, but once again, you're literally sacking thundy to get Meta paralyzed. That's hardly a good thing.

8. The point I'm trying to make is that there is a lack of low risk offensive checks for Metagross. You have to use super-risky choiced stuff because he outspeeds everything and resists like all priority, and the stuff he is weak against is very risky to be locked into.
 
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Scarfed Raptor Halc never said you had to run megas to check mmeta, he simply listed them as options among several other perfectly viable options. If you don't want to use your mega slot, then try klefki (reflect klefki in particular turns a lot of offensive checks into outright counters, and helps with a lot more then just metagross). Alternatively, use adamant CB tflame and rely on something else as your electric check, or just accept that you need a scarfmon and have a game plan for common swap ins like heatran or flying types (frankly you should have an offensive swap in for tran anyway, I hear Keldeo is pretty good).
 

Karxrida

Lahabruh Moment
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
1. Talon wants to run jolly nature in order to outspeed magnezone, raikou, and thundurus
.
2. Why are you listing Mega Pokemon to take care of a Mega? If I have to use Megas to check a mega then that screams broken to me.

3. Sash Mamo? Ok, I'm really confused about this one. Metagross is a late game sweeper, Mamo is more of a suicide/early lead.

4. Choice Items are not a necessary evil. Many mons have priority/weather to deal with boosted threats especially in Generation 6. In addition, locking yourself into choice moves that hit Mega Metagross super effectively is just asking for trouble. Heatran (which is a staple on many teams atm) would love to eat up your Fire Blast. Keldeo and Azu say the same as well. Being locked in Earthquake is no small deal because so many guys have immunity to ground type attacks. Dark is somewhat better but is still destroyed by fairies. Also, choice locked electric isn't all that great as well (or shadow ball on Raikou for that matter).

5. I said the combination of Lopunny + Metagross. And who knows if Lopunny will ever get banned/suspected? Right now, Metagross is the open target, and I want to snipe that guy while he's available.

6. I don't think you read my post thoroughly if you're mentioning Sand Rush Excadrill. Also, Fire Blast Azelf doesn't even OHKO Metagross. And isn't Azelf a suicide lead who 99% of the time always goes out first. Metagross cleans up later in the game.

7. T-wave klefki and thundy are good cripplers. I'll give you that from the list, but once again, you're literally sacking thundy to get Meta paralyzed. That's hardly a good thing.

8. The point I'm trying to make is that there is a lack of low risk offensive checks for Metagross. You have to use super-risky choiced stuff because he outspeeds everything and resists like all priority, and the stuff he is weak against is very risky to be locked into.
1.) Band always ran Adamant so it could revenge kill easier, it doesn't need to outspeed those threats when it's not sweeping.

2.) [redacted because I can't words]

3.) Fair point.

4.) Yes they are because Offense is not designed to have switch-ins for everything and Scarfing stuff lets you revenge shit that threatens you.

5.) So use Band Talonflame or Scarfers? They do shit other than revnege those two. X_X

6.) Doesn't need to, it just needs to put it into revenge range.

7.) That's literally been Thundy's job since Gen V. It will always sack itself when T-Waving unless you get lucky with Para-hax.

8.) Offense is risky by its nature. Again, they don't carry swtich-ins to shit since they win via offensive pressure.
 
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Scarfed Raptor Halc never said you had to run megas to check mmeta, he simply listed them as options among several other perfectly viable options. If you don't want to use your mega slot, then try klefki (reflect klefki in particular turns a lot of offensive checks into outright counters, and helps with a lot more then just metagross). Alternatively, use adamant CB tflame and rely on something else as your electric check, or just accept that you need a scarfmon and have a game plan for common swap ins like heatran or flying types (frankly you should have an offensive swap in for tran anyway, I hear Keldeo is pretty good).
Web Bowser, you keep mentioning swaps like Hyper Offense is about constant switching. That's not how it works most of the time. But I will say that I forgot that Klefki did OK against gross with foulplay and other gimmicks. But anyway, HO is about always being able to apply pressure no matter what the circumstance (well that's what a good HO team does anyway). Ending up choice locked into earthquake against a flying type, should never happen. (Or a locked electric vs. ground situation) There is no excuse. You should be able to at least deal damage to all switch-ins...

Unless your name is Life Orb Swords Dance Diggersby lol.

***
Anyway, Halcyon. this will be my last post in this thread because we clearly won't see eye to eye on this buddy!
 
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