np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

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Since MegaGross is the only top tier Pokémon who forces ppl to make their team basically around checking him, that argument is also invalid.
Yet it really doesn't FORCE you to edit your team around it. Me personally, I make teams using stuff I want to use and go try it out, and if I notice that everything is weak to something, one thing, the I'd edit it to work around that. Simple. As for Megagross itself, it really can't touch my Skarm and Mandi, and it can't switch in on MegaTar sweeping. But that's just my team.

Back to the argument, it isn't the only top tier threat that makes you need to check it/counter it. What about Mega Lopunny? With Scrappy and Normal/Fighting Typing and STABs, it hits everything in the metagame for neutral damage or greater, and that's not including coverage.

Sorry, i said it wrongly. What i was trying to say is that Metagross forces ppl to put many Pokémon that they usually would not use in their team only to handle him, making their team weak to MANY other threats, only because they're afraid of being crushed by only one Pokémon. That's absurd. There's no other Pokémon that do this with the teambuilding process. Not even Sableye, Altaria, Lopunny, Landorus, Keldeo, nor any other top tier mon.
Tyranitar, Heatran, Lando, Bisharp, etc. all check it and do solid damage to it, and are also very good mons outside of Megagross stuff. Physically Defensive Rotom-W is also a great counter(maybe, I know it can take some hits but not how well) and it takes nothing from Grass Knot due to being so light. Mega Scizor, and regular Scizor, another OU mon, is not hit Super effectively by any of it's attacks except HP Fire, and if you're running HP Fire just for Scizor it's doing more harm than good to your side.
 
He was probably drunk.


That is why he is a top tiers. And if you think 2 minutes more, you will see that you need more than 1 check to dragoons, more than 1 check to fly spam, etc.


Most of Fairy mons have a ground- and/or fire-type move to kill these steel types (Diancie has Earth Power / HP Fire, Altaria has Earthquake / Fire Blast, Clefable as HP Ground (LO set) / Fthrower or Fire Blast). And most of them are eaily trappable / overloadable.
The only 2 fairies who can use effectively the Ground and Fire coverage in the same moveset are Diancie and Altaria. First of all, Diancie is really fragile. Therefore, any bullet punch, flash cannon or any other steel type move can OHKO her. She isn't really fast, which make her even more subject to get bursted by any scarfedmon that can use steel-type moves. Altaria can be easily stopped by Clefable in her physical set, and by Excadrill in any moveset.
 
Yet it really doesn't FORCE you to edit your team around it. Me personally, I make teams using stuff I want to use and go try it out, and if I notice that everything is weak to something, one thing, the I'd edit it to work around that. Simple. As for Megagross itself, it really can't touch my Skarm and Mandi, and it can't switch in on MegaTar sweeping. But that's just my team.

Back to the argument, it isn't the only top tier threat that makes you need to check it/counter it. What about Mega Lopunny? With Scrappy and Normal/Fighting Typing and STABs, it hits everything in the metagame for neutral damage or greater, and that's not including coverage.



Tyranitar, Heatran, Lando, Bisharp, etc. all check it and do solid damage to it, and are also very good mons outside of Megagross stuff. Physically Defensive Rotom-W is also a great counter(maybe, I know it can take some hits but not how well) and it takes nothing from Grass Knot due to being so light. Mega Scizor, and regular Scizor, another OU mon, is not hit Super effectively by any of it's attacks except HP Fire, and if you're running HP Fire just for Scizor it's doing more harm than good to your side.

Physical defensive M-Scizor is the only Pokémon besides Skarmory that we can considerate a check for Metagross since every single other Pokémon you said can be outspeeded and OHKOed or 2KOed by MegaGross. But, how much Scizor can do in return to MegaGross? Not very much, principally if Metagross has Magnezone at his side. (Sorry for my bad english again)
 

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The only 2 fairies who can use effectively the Ground and Fire coverage in the same moveset are Diancie and Altaria. First of all, Diancie is really fragile. Therefore, any bullet punch, flash cannon or any other steel type move can OHKO her. She isn't really fast, which make her even more subject to get bursted. Altaria can be easily stopped by Clefable in her physical set, and by Excadrill in any moveset.
Clefable can run Flamethrower very effectively in it's moveset, and recently Life Orb Focus Blast sets have gotten more popular, being able to bypass it's most common switchin in Heatran and opening up either an opportunity for itself or a team mate to do a lot of work. The only common user of Bullet Punch is Scizor(assuming you're talking about the suspect metagame, and not that many Gross run it anyway), in general Steel type moves are rare due to the pretty poor coverage they get outside of hitting Fairies. Clefable needs to be very healthy to be able to take a Return from Altaria, as Moonblast isn't KOing back so it has to be able to take 2 or one boosted one. Excadrill is an ok check I guess if it can come in on a Return, however if Altaria Dragon Dances before it comes in, unless you have sand or are scarfed Excadrill loses. Not to mention it can be caught be Earthquake or Fire Blast as it comes in.(Not trying to say Fairies are OP just clarifying a few things)

Physical defensive Scizor is the only Pokémon besides Skarmory that we can considerate a check for Metagross since every single other Pokémon you said can be outspeeded and OHKOed or 2KOed by MegaGross. But, how much Scizor can do in return to MegaGross? Not very much, principally if Metagross has Magnezone at his side. (Sorry for my bad english again)
You need to redefine your definition of check, because you're right in that Physically Defensive Mega Scizor and Skarmory are about the closest things that could be considered counters, but even then, Skarmory has to either run Rocky Helmet and / or Counter to be a true answer to it. However all the things that DoubleMP gave could be considered viable checks given the right item or set.
 
Hi guys! I hope I'm not in error posting this here. Sorta still learning how the slogan forums work and such. If nobody minds I would just like to add something real quick which I have observed while reading this thread.

To be honest I'm still new to competitive battling so I don't really feel qualified to post pro ban or anti ban. Especially as I'm pretty sure everything that needs to be said has been said already. However on the other side I have been in many debates and arguments myself in the past over other topics and if I may I think a big part of the problem here is a lack of definition of the terms being discussed. Many of the posts here appear to be acciden accidentally caught up with semantics and wording which is really unfortunate as the actual question at hand becomes slightly marginalized.

I would suggest if Im not overstepping my reach here that another thread could be posted where people can freely debate about what 'broken' and other words actually mean to the majority. Its hard to have a level debate when people have different ideas of what the words they are using actually mean.

Anyway apologises if I have spoken out of turn, just trying to help here where I can to get the big debate moving forwards.
 
So i am pro ban and here is why:

First i want to compare Metagross to Greninja, the last banned Pokemon using metagross most valued set (stabs + hammer arm)
calcs:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 187-222 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 158-186 (46.3 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 164-192 (48 - 56.3%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 168-199 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO


As you can see, hammer arm hits a bit weaker than gunk shot or ice beam but both of metas stabs hit harder.
now what meta relevant stuff does resist metagross attacks?
slowbro and slowking, starmie, victini, doublade resist all 3 attacks
jirachi and scizor bronzong and skarmory resist the stabs without being weak to hammer arm.

of those mons, slowbro/king and starmie get beaten by grass knot while doublade victini and jirachi fear a potential earthquake and skarmory gets even beaten by hammer arm, leaving bronzong and scizor as the only mons that resist its powerful stabs without being weak to coverage.
while this doesn mean that scizor and bronzong are the only metagorss answers (physiccally defensive mew is for example also a good counter) it means that theys are the only ones that can stomach a hit and dont have to recover immediately after being hit, what means that most of the time the metagorss user wont lose momentum against even stall teams.

Greninjas speed tier made it only being able to get easily revenge killed by (jolly) talonflame and weavile everythign else needed either a scarf or a megastone an thus werent easy to slap on a team.
While more mons out speed metagross, most of them fail to ohko it. non band jolly talon comes closest being able to do roughly 80% n average, and weavile and dugtrio also do a lot.
Now what makes metagross really more difficult to revenge kill than greninja is how it doesnt fear priority in contrast to greninja:
Its typing makes metagross resist the hardest hitting priority moves, including ice shard, ralondflames bravebird and mpinsirs qa, dragonite band espeed and band scizor bullet punch, moves that would kill greninja after a few rounds of lo recoil.
only shadow sneak which now one uses atm and sucker punch hit metagorss supeeffective, and there are sub sets that can make advantage of this..

While overall greinja is better offensively because of its better supereffective coverage, sligthly higher speed tier and more coverage options, Metagross comes pretty close to it due to its higher stab power against neutral targets.

Now additionally, Metagross in contrast to greninja has a shitton of bulk and a good defensive typing meaning it supports the team by being able to reliable sitch into attacks, something greninja could never do.


Therefor for me Metagross is too good because its a pokemon that doesnt do one stuff perfect like greninja ans sucks in other stuff, but it has just enough base attack and coverage and speed + bulk that the all around package is too much to handle.
 
I guess I'll post my thoughts since I am leaning toward voting to ban Mega Metagross.

I think Mega Metagross is a borderline case. I guess I'll just say a few words about what makes the pro-ban side make a little more sense to me. I'm sorry this is long, but maybe it's kind of unique? Here goes:

I'm not advocating for #banallmegas, but the point I want to make is that the mechanic of the mega evolution has warped our intuitive notion of what an OU Pokemon is.

The standard "invisible line" between OU/Uber has generally been around the 600 BST line as far as I can remember. (Spare me the lecture about Cube. I know there are exceptions to this - it's just a general framework.) I think back to playing DPP, with suspects like Manaphy, Latias, Salamence, and Garchomp, all mons around that line. (I didn't play fifth gen so I won't comment on that.)

What I am struck by in a broad sense is how mega evolutions have warped this invisible line. Most megas aren't any more broken than a traditional OU legendary like Keldeo (so, not broken), but they are still top-tier threats that have really added to the power creep, or if not that, then they have certainly added to the huge diversity (or over-saturation, if you prefer) of threats in OU. This point has been made numerous times in arguing that removing Mega Metagross is one step toward lessening this effect. I agree with that, but I think there are even more nuances to examine.

Usage is skewed because of the function of mega evolution as a game mechanic - there is a far greater opportunity cost. I bring this up because I think this limiting aspect of the mechanic impacts our perception of the metagame in profound ways.

Consider that each individual mega evolution sees less usage than it would in a vacuum (i.e. if you could use multiple mega evolutions). As a thought experiment, imagine lifting the one mega per team restriction. If this were the case, each individual mega evolution would exert its "true" "pull" on the metagame, like something like Keldeo does. I would argue that the opportunity cost of megas, by lessening an individual mega's impact on the metagame, lessens our perception of the mega's power, as our intuitive sense of how strong a Pokemon is will often be tied to its impact on the metagame around it.

Consider Mega Gardevoir. No one likes facing this thing - most teams have to play around it, and it arguably restricts stall in team building as much as Metagross does with offense or balance. With minimal team support and smart in-battle execution, you can break down a huge majority of stall and defensive cores. In a vacuum, this thing is a terror, but since it's something of a matchup mon that carries high opportunity cost, it is perceived as being a lesser threat because of the team-building restriction of the mega evolution mechanic that necessitates that it is less common (and therefore less threatening in a general sense) than it would be if it wasn't a mega. In a vacuum, could it replace Landorus as the best (or perhaps most *viable*) stall-breaker in the tier? Could stall adapt to a metagame where Mega Gardevoir was more common? In other words, I am arguing that on an individual level, Mega Gardevoir is better than the metagame tells us it is. I think this is true of every mega. (Mega Blastoise could be a nice offensive spinner if it didn't mean forgoing another superior mega, after all…) This is why I think that the "600 BST" thing I mentioned above is interesting - not because there's any inherent value in the number or "line," but because this distortion of perception is keeping arguably overpowered Pokemon in the tier that very precariously "balance" each other out, even if it really centralizes the non-mega mons that people use (see ubiquity of Glisc/Land-T/Keld/Latis/Ferro/Heatran/Rotom-W etc.).

These perceptions of individual megas are right in the aggregate and wrong in individual circumstances. By this I mean that you can afford to prepare for Mega Gardevoir less because game mechanics restrict its usage, but in the small percentage of times you have to face it, especially if you're a stall or slow balance player, this thing is going to cream you. When you build teams, it is with the aggregate - the metagame, basically - in mind, since you want to at least check most threats. This means preparing for every mega, but the fundamental incongruity here is that you must prepare for a greater presence of mega evolutions than any individual opponent can ever bring since they can only bring one, creating an inefficiency in team building. (And people wonder why bulky offense cores are always Lati/Keld/Land-T or bulkier balance looks a lot like what CTC described. The common theme is they all have amazing defensive utility without forcing you to run a stall. Aegislash operated this way as well.)

If there was no mega restriction, then the metagame would centralize "naturally" and this incongruity would not exist. Each Pokemon's individual strength would impact the metagame equitably. Right now this is not the case and probably can never be the case.

When people talk about how OU is too variable, I believe the mega evolution mechanic is a major source of this, for the reasons I described above.

How the hell do you decide the tiering of a Pokemon whose impact on the tier as a whole and whose impact on individual matches do not necessarily line up? I have no idea - megas are such an unprecedented mechanic. I've struggled a lot with this point, personally.

…So *finally* coming around to Mega Metagross specifically, I think it is probably broken and should be banned because I think that it restricts team-building to a tremendous degree and is therefore unhealthy for the metagame. Maybe not much more than other incredibly strong megas, but as I hopefully outlined with some clarity with my philosophy above, I think maybe those should get banned too.

Just my two cents. :x
 
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No. Ferrothorn can (if no Hammer Arm), Quagsire can (if no Grass Knot).
Those moves are common for exactly that reason. Taking away some of its strong coverage, then pointing out that the mons it was beating using that coverage now no longer lose to it is a moot point.

"Skarmory", "Ferrothorn", "Sableye", "Mew", "Excadrill", "Landorus-Therian", "Quagsire", "Defensive Mega Scizor",... I won't list everyone, I guess you got you are wrong.
Skarmory and Scizor work fine, mew with massive physical defense investment can take it on. Sableye isn't a reliable counter, having a chance to be 2hko'd by meteor mash. Any residual, it doesn't work. 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

As for Landorus Therian, if you are talking about the scarf set, then it takes big damage because Metagross keeps clear body as it switches in:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 226-267 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Besides the fact that Metagross isn't actually 1HKO'd by scarf Lando T's Earthquake, this only switches in once, and it has to make sure it doesn't take any residual first. This makes it a check, not a counter.

I'd agree that these are checks, but having checks doesn't really say much about whether a pokemon should or shouldn't be banned. Skarmory doesn't tend to fit onto any non-stall team very well, and Scizor is one mega out of many that should be viable in OU. Really, you've offered about 2 or 3 specific pokemon that deal with Metagross, and don't fit onto teams easily at all, the others are checks, and every pokemon has checks.
Jukain
First off, I, and many others who are anti ban, do not expect "a ban to fix everything that's wrong with the metagame." I can't speak for others, but what I expect from a ban is a significant shift towards a more enjoyable meta (keyword significant - it does no good if a ban barely changes anything). Metagross does not provide that significant shift, which leads to my next point.

You say that the suspect ladder is not representative of the post Metagross metagame. Um, how is it not representative of it? The whole point of gross being banned on the ladder is so that we can see what the meta is like with it gone. Yeah there are people who play it just for getting reqs, but to say that most people don't care about experimenting is a severe exaggeration. I've already stated that I did not notice very much change, and I still stand by that. However, I did say that Clefable (and in hindsight, Diancie and Mega Altaria) are more prominent as the most notable difference. This does not show a significant enough shift towards a more enjoyable metagame. The difference is slight. And if that difference is only slight, then a ban for that reason is simply not warranted. Furthermore, even if the suspect ladder isn't representative of the new metagame, it still shows a glimpse of what it will be like. And like I said in my previous post, all the same mons exist. Ferro, Slowbro, Lando T, Gliscor, ScarfTar, Bulky Chomp, Clefable, Heatran, Mega Altaria, etc still plague this balance infested metagame. And no, these are obviously not all Metagross checks. But of those that are (Lando t, ferro, ScarfTar, Slowbro, chomp), they still exist and have not lost viability in the new metagame.
The shift is supposed to be that there is no Mega Metagross, not that any other pokemon become less popular. Honestly, this is more of a point towards the pro-ban side, because, if this is true, then Mega Metagross is not contributing to the meta by keeping threats in line.

To conclude, Mega Metagross is a pokemon with few counters, not that this reason alone means it is broken. It is a culmination of its strong points that lead to the conclusion that it should be banned. To quote an anti-ban post:
this shit is moderately fast, moderately bulky, has moderately good coverage, and hits pretty fuckin hard. its in the right place at the center of the meta because it is a gr8 glue and breaker
Mega Metagross isn't too strong because of any one of its factors, it can break teams with strong coverage and a high attack stat + tough claws, threaten a huge amount of pokemon with its nice 110 base speed, and has fantastic 80/150/110 bulk. So I'd agree with CTC that Metagross doesn't just run over teams using any one of strong points, but when it contributes so much to a team using its sheer number of strong points, even compared to the rest of OU, it becomes obvious that it outshines everything else, and gives the team using it an advantage because of everything that it can offer, whilst taking up just one team slot.
 
Those moves are common for exactly that reason. Taking away some of its strong coverage, then pointing out that the mons it was beating using that coverage now no longer lose to it is a moot point.


Skarmory and Scizor work fine, mew with massive physical defense investment can take it on. Sableye isn't a reliable counter, having a chance to be 2hko'd by meteor mash. Any residual, it doesn't work. 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

As for Landorus Therian, if you are talking about the scarf set, then it takes big damage because Metagross keeps clear body as it switches in:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 226-267 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Besides the fact that Metagross isn't actually 1HKO'd by scarf Lando T's Earthquake, this only switches in once, and it has to make sure it doesn't take any residual first. This makes it a check, not a counter.

I'd agree that these are checks, but having checks doesn't really say much about whether a pokemon should or shouldn't be banned. Skarmory doesn't tend to fit onto any non-stall team very well, and Scizor is one mega out of many that should be viable in OU. Really, you've offered about 2 or 3 specific pokemon that deal with Metagross, and don't fit onto teams easily at all, the others are checks, and every pokemon has checks.
I was quoting a guy saying Metagross only has 1 check. That's why I listed all these checks (never mentionned they were counter to Metagross, only defensive Zor is one. Please make sure to fully understand what I'm saying.

Also, the list isn't complete, there is a lot of checks depending of the team you are running, and you will always find what you want without any restriction in your teambuilding process.
 

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MMeta ha a bunch of checks and a few counters (don't fucking start with your HP Fire bullshit) and while I was initiall VERY pro ban, I've since gone closer to the no ban side. MMeta is kind of like Mienfoo in LC for those of you who play the tier. They have one or two jobs, and they perform the job extremely well. I feel like MMeta isn't as splashable of a pokemon as people make it out to be. It's not like Mega Kang, where, in her time of rule, there wasn't a reason to use a different mega. It was either Mega Kang as your mega or you're trash. Now we have Mega Sableye for stall, Mega Lopunny for your HO, Mega Altaria as a DDance sweeper, and Mega Sharpedo (my favorite) as a good cleaner. There are also older Megas such as Mega Manectric who can intimidate MMeta and blast it with Overheat, Mega Scizor who walls it practically all day, Mega Charizards, X being able to burn it and stall it out, Y I believe can live a ZHB and fry it. There are many Megas to use... I guess what I'm saying is that your mega slot isn't just limited to MMeta like it was when Mega Kang or Mega Luke were in the tier. Just some food for thought.
 
Mega Metagross has counters. I think it's best whenever we talk about it to assume the most coverage it has on it at one time is the Hammer Arm/Grass Knot/Dual Stab set. This set annoys the crap out of me because i can't throw Hippo, Slowbro, or (the suprisingly fat) Starmie. Starmie actually surprised me :C. i tried to use it as an offensive check but then got trounced by Grass Knot. Rotom w can check, but can't switch in. Also Refresh sets troll it. Defensive lando t is a check that only works if metagross has already mega evo'd, scarf lando t i would consider a limited check, barely above rotom-w. Quagsire is destroyed by GK, and ferrothorn by hammer arm. Mega Sableye is 2HKO'd by meteor mash, Manetric can't knock it out with guarenteed w/ overheat and is destroyed if it hasn't mega evolved yet, taking over 80-90% from Zen headbutt. Please don't list these. Defensive Scizor shuts it down. Counter Skarmory shuts it down. Alomomola Shuts it down. It's not uncounterable. The main problem with this pokemon is how annoying it is to kill without a strong defensive stop or sacking something (which doesn't even guarantee a trade, infact, usually doesn't). It limits balance building and is a nightmare to face on offensive because of how bulky, fast and strong it is. It's nearly impossible to knock out with a scarfed Revenge Killer. Keldeo Can't, Terrakion Can't, a bunch of other things can't. (too lazy to list). It's not overly broken but it's combination of superb defensive typing, good coverage, speed, bulk and strong power make it just barely overwhelming in OU. This thing is nowhere near as broken as Khan, Mence, Mawile or even Greninja. Please god stop with these comparisons/asking for those to come back. Playing with and against it this pokemon is a massive asset to offensive and balance teams that has little reason not to use, and doesn't require much team support if at all. It's just too good to pass up using. The only megas i can really justify using over it are diancie, sableye, altaria and lopunny because they all occupy solid, strong niches that nothing else is in. And even then Mega Metagross is easily a superior team asset. The Opportunity cost for using this pokemon is just too good, albeit not overwhelming enough to kill diversity (think Mence/Khan), and not Aegis level. It's just too much for OU. Ciao mega metagross, sorry -Clone- , but i'm going for Ban.

Also don't go on this rant about "if you ban this something else will be broken", or "Fairies will be OP no ban" For the latter, Fairies weren't OP before, and certainly won't be when it's gone. Too many steel types in the tier for it to be good, and it's not an amazing attacking type to begin with. As for the Former, the only pokemon who benefit from this ban are the fairies and Pinsir/Terrakion, none of which were broken before hand and won't be broken afterwards. Altaria isn't broken, Diancie isn't broken, and Clefable isn't broken. This meta will be actually quite stable after it's gone. Luckstard. pokemon like clefable, altaria and diancie certainty won't be broken when it's gone. Clefable wasn't broken before hand, altaria loses to most fairies and walls that can phase it or just tank the 3 attacks set, and diancie is so frail and hard to set up (thinking of rock polish) not to mention almost every offense team carries priority like azumarill or scizor it's never going to be broken unless we ban like every steel/decent wall/priority user. Honestly, if you can't deal with these pokemon without mega metagross, you're bad at teambuilding. (and don't complain about your other stops being trappable, thats complaining zard x is broken because goth can trap your hippowdon.)
 
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Freeroamer

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Mega Metagross has counters. I think it's best whenever we talk about it to assume the most coverage it has on it at one time is the Hammer Arm/Grass Knot/Dual Stab set. This set annoys the crap out of me because i can't throw Hippo, Slowbro, or (the suprisingly fat) Starmie. Starmie actually surprised me :C. i tried to use it as an offensive check but then got trounced by Grass Knot. Rotom w can check, but can't switch in. Also Refresh sets troll it. Defensive lando t is a check that only works if metagross has already mega evo'd, scarf lando t i would consider a limited check, barely above rotom-w. Quagsire is destroyed by GK, and ferrothorn by hammer arm. Mega Sableye is 2HKO'd by meteor mash, Manetric can't knock it out with guarenteed w/ overheat and is destroyed if it hasn't mega evolved yet, taking over 80-90% from Zen headbutt. Please don't list these. Defensive Scizor shuts it down. Counter Skarmory shuts it down. Alomomola Shuts it down. It's not uncounterable. The main problem with this pokemon is how annoying it is to kill without a strong defensive stop or sacking something (which doesn't even guarantee a trade, infact, usually doesn't). It limits balance building and is a nightmare to face on offensive because of how bulky, fast and strong it is. It's nearly impossible to knock out with a scarfed Revenge Killer. Keldeo Can't, Terrakion Can't, a bunch of other things can't. (too lazy to list). It's not overly broken but it's combination of superb defensive typing, good coverage, speed, bulk and strong power make it just barely overwhelming in OU. This thing is nowhere near as broken as Khan, Mence, Mawile or even Greninja. Please god stop with these comparisons/asking for those to come back. Playing with and against it this pokemon is a massive asset to offensive and balance teams that has little reason not to use, and doesn't require much team support if at all. It's just too good to pass up using. The only megas i can really justify using over it are diancie, sableye, altaria and lopunny because they all occupy solid, strong niches that nothing else is in. And even then Mega Metagross is easily a superior team asset. The Opportunity cost for using this pokemon is just too good, albeit not overwhelming enough to kill diversity (think Mence/Khan), and not Aegis level. It's just too much for OU. Ciao mega metagross, sorry -Clone- , but i'm going for Ban.

Also don't go on this rant about "if you ban this something else will be broken", or "Fairies will be OP no ban" For the latter, Fairies weren't OP before, and certainly won't be when it's gone. Too many steel types in the tier for it to be good, and it's not an amazing attacking type to begin with. As for the Former, the only pokemon who benefit from this ban are the fairies and Pinsir/Terrakion, none of which were broken before hand and won't be broken afterwards. Altaria isn't broken, Diancie isn't broken, and Clefable isn't broken. This meta will be actually quite stable after it's gone. Luckstard. pokemon like clefable, altaria and diancie certainty won't be broken when it's gone. Clefable wasn't broken before hand, altaria loses to most fairies and walls that can phase it or just tank the 3 attacks set, and diancie is so frail and hard to set up (thinking of rock polish) not to mention almost every offense team carries priority like azumarill or scizor it's never going to be broken unless we ban like every steel/decent wall/priority user. Honestly, if you can't deal with these pokemon without mega metagross, you're bad at teambuilding. (and don't complain about your other stops being trappable, thats complaining zard x is broken because goth can trap your hippowdon.)
A few points about this post:

#1 If Metagross runs Refresh, then it is giving up valuable coverage, meaning something on your team likely handles it better than it already would have done. This is one of the biggest issues I have with pro ban arguments, that a lot of them mention all the moves Metagross could run, but at the end of the day it has 4 slots, not 7 or whatever.

#2 Aren't all top tier threats difficult to prepare for? People are very willing to keep emphasising this point about oh it has no switchins except certain ones that fit on certain types of teams. First of all this assumes it's running about 6 moves because no one set hits everything, and Metagross is hardly the only thing that this applies to, for one I can think of Lando-i, who has very few switchins except the kind of passive things you mentioned, and AV Torn-T because Rock Slide Lando is a myth. Latios could also be considered in this kind of bracket, it can run coverage to get past most of it's initial switchins other than Tyranitar and the kind of passive things I mentioned previously.

#3 I actually agree with this point, that people shouldn't worry about Fairies being OP if Metagross goes, but I disagree with the way you've put it across. Put simply, it's not because everyone is putting Metagross on their teams that they're not as worried about Fairies in the current metagame, it's that it's presence means that putting one of these Fairies on your team then inevitably means you have to build to be able to beat Metagross so your Fairy can put in a lot more work. Again, this comes from Metagross being a top threat, maybe a broken one w/e you decide to believe it doesn't really matter for the point at hand. They're not using that example because they need Metagross to beat these pokemon, but without it's presence in the tier, these pokemon will shoot up in viability now one of their biggest checks is gone and people are worried about a centralised metagame due to them. Whether you should be worried about that depends on how you approach tiering, but in my eyes, I'd rather focus on the pokemon at hand, and I don't believe Metagross is broken, I just believe it's a top threat at the center of the OU metagame.
 
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Luckstard. pokemon like clefable, altaria and diancie certainty won't be broken when it's gone. Clefable wasn't broken before hand, altaria loses to most fairies and walls that can phase it or just tank the 3 attacks set, and diancie is so frail and hard to set up (thinking of rock polish) not to mention almost every offense team carries priority like azumarill or scizor it's never going to be broken unless we ban like every steel/decent wall/priority user. Honestly, if you can't deal with these pokemon without mega metagross, you're bad at teambuilding. (and don't complain about your other stops being trappable, thats complaining zard x is broken because goth can trap your hippowdon.)
I don't remember the last time i've said Fairies are broken in a Metagross-less metagame...

But I remember saying Fairies were overcentralazing the metagame. I faced Diancie/Altaria + Magnezone builds an insane amount of time on the ladder.

I'm bad at teambuilding, I'm not a metagame innovator at all, but I never had trouble with Diancie or Clefable. I also never said that.

Like the other guy, please make sur to fully understanding my post before trying to change what I'm saying into dumb things. Excuse me if my english isn't up enough.
 
I was quoting a guy saying Metagross only has 1 check. That's why I listed all these checks (never mentionned they were counter to Metagross, only defensive Zor is one. Please make sure to fully understand what I'm saying.
Actually, you didn't specify which were which, so that would account for my confusion. In any case, of the mons you listed, two actually lose 1v1 to Metagross.
Also, the list isn't complete, there is a lot of checks depending of the team you are running, and you will always find what you want without any restriction in your teambuilding process.
Well yes, Metagross doesn't run through entire teams. That's not the reason why I think it should be banned. It's the combination of it being a breaker with good coverage, being able to tank strong hits, and the high speed that sets it apart from the rest of OU, nothing else offers all of these traits combined.
 
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I don't remember the last time i've said Fairies are broken in a Metagross-less metagame...

But I remember saying Fairies were overcentralazing the metagame. I faced Diancie/Altaria + Magnezone builds an insane amount of time on the ladder.

I'm bad at teambuilding, I'm not a metagame innovator at all, but I never had trouble with Diancie or Clefable. I also never said that.

Like the other guy, please make sur to fully understanding my post before trying to change what I'm saying into dumb things. Excuse me if my english isn't up enough.
hmm. it would appear i've been too overzealous in my actions. Sorry too used to people screaming out loud how fairies will be broken, it's probably some sort of trigger now. it's my bad.
A few points about this post:

#1 If Metagross runs Refresh, then it is giving up valuable coverage, meaning something on your team likely handles it better than it already would have done. This is one of the biggest issues I have with pro ban arguments, that a lot of them mention all the moves Metagross could run, but at the end of the day it has 4 slots, not 7 or whatever.

#2 Aren't all top tier threats difficult to prepare for? People are very willing to keep emphasising this point about oh it has no switchins except certain ones that fit on certain types of teams. First of all this assumes it's running about 6 moves because no one set hits everything, and Metagross is hardly the only thing that this applies to, for one I can think of Lando-i, who has very few switchins except the kind of passive things you mentioned, and AV Torn-T because Rock Slide Lando is a myth. Latios could also be considered in this kind of bracket, it can run coverage to get past most of it's initial switchins other than Tyranitar and the kind of passive things I mentioned previously.

#3 I actually agree with this point, that people shouldn't worry about Fairies being OP if Metagross goes, but I disagree with the way you've put it across. Put simply, it's not because everyone is putting Metagross on their teams that they're not as worried about Fairies in the current metagame, it's that it's presence means that putting one of these Fairies on your team then inevitably means you have to build to be able to beat Metagross so your Fairy can put in a lot more work. Again, this comes from Metagross being a top threat, maybe a broken one w/e you decide to believe it doesn't really matter for the point at hand. They're not using that example because they need Metagross to beat these pokemon, but without it's presence in the tier, these pokemon will shoot up in viability now one of their biggest checks is gone and people are worried about a centralised metagame due to them. Whether you should be worried about that depends on how you approach tiering, but in my eyes, I'd rather focus on the pokemon at hand, and I don't believe Metagross is broken, I just believe it's a top threat at the center of the OU metagame.
sigh.
1.) Refresh was a side point, and i clearly stated the set thought about should be the Hammer Arm-GK-DualStab set
2.) you do realize again, the pokemon i listed all lost to the 4 mixed set i lead off my post with. Metagross isn't running absurd coverage like hp fighting latios to kill these things, it's running it's standard set.
3.) I never stated everybody is putting metagross on their teams to deal with fairies, i'm targeting the people who think that banning metagross will break fairie somehow. I don't see how this keys into my main arguement.

You never actually responded to my main points. you know, the ones about how it's combination of bulk-speed-power is simply just barely too much for the OU meta, how it centralizes teambuilding on balance and offense, is hard to knock out without losing something and taking damage on something else on offense, and opportunity cost.
 
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The only 2 fairies who can use effectively the Ground and Fire coverage in the same moveset are Diancie and Altaria. First of all, Diancie is really fragile. Therefore, any bullet punch, flash cannon or any other steel type move can OHKO her. She isn't really fast, which make her even more subject to get bursted by any scarfedmon that can use steel-type moves. Altaria can be easily stopped by Clefable in her physical set, and by Excadrill in any moveset.
Not exactly true. Any variant of Excadrill gets bopped by DD Cloud Nine Altaria with EQ if it holds off on mega evolving until the switchin happens. A slight nitpick but a valid point nonetheless.
 
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bludz

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I have some problems with banning something just because it is claimed to be unhealthy for the metagame. Not that I don't think that unhealthy things shouldn't be banned, but without a concrete standard for what's unhealthy, this becomes a lot more subjective than arguing whether something is broken or not. Something's effect on the metagame is pretty widespread and cannot be fully comprehended or calculated by us -- I think we constantly overestimate our abilities in this regard. Granted we can definitely make a lot of observations, but nobody can ever predict all the trends that occur after a ban which leads me to believe we don't understand the effects that the mon we banned has on the metagame as well as we thought we did.

Then there's also the issue of what a healthy metagame actually is. I think most of us agree that no broken mons running around and a certain amount of diversity in mons/teambuilds/playstyles is healthy. But after that people have their own opinions. For example some believe that we need to reduce matchup reliance, while others claim that this is a part of the game. I personally believe matchup reliance is just part of pokemon, and although I am not against the idea of trying to reduce it somewhat, the issue becomes at what point do we stop? There's no concrete way to describe when the matchup reliance crosses the threshold from being too much to being ok. Combine this with an ever growing roster of pokemon and I just don't think it makes a lot of sense to ban things until all threats can be accounted for in teambuilding, because we'll end up banning a lot of non-broken shit just so people with a certain viewpoint (read: not necessarily the majority of players) enjoy the game more.

If we are going to ban something I think there needs to be a standardized basis for why it should go. Being broken or uncompetitive fall under this -- that's why we have varying definitions for traits of being broken -- but "being unhealthy for the metagame" does not. And like I said the problem with rigorously defining what is unhealthy for the metagame leads us to defining what a healthy metagame is which will never be fully agreed upon. Thus, something being unhealthy for the meta is kind of a weird argument because it isn't convincing at all unless you already agree. For example it is being argued that Metagross is overcentralizing (and this is unhealthy), but I'm still not totally sure what exactly that means. Obviously we don't see Arcanines running around just to counter it, but it is very possible that it leads to a higher usage of Landorus-T which is a common check. Unfortunately there's no real way to prove this is the case.

tl;dr: Let's try to define some of the terms a little more clearly otherwise misunderstandings arise (also new definitions for broken traits may be in order as WebBowser has pointed out). Beyond that I think if we can't agree on a definition then it becomes a shaky basis for banning something.
 

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I wasnt planning on posting anymore in this thread becuase Ive talked it to death, but I then saw this.

The shift is supposed to be that there is no Mega Metagross, not that any other pokemon become less popular. Honestly, this is more of a point towards the pro-ban side, because, if this is true, then Mega Metagross is not contributing to the meta by keeping threats in line.
One of the defining arguments of the pro ban side is not that Gross is OP (as stated countless times by multiple people), but rather that it is centralizing to the metagame. And when something is centralizing, it forces people to use specific / suboptimal mons to check / counter it in order to have a chance against the mon in question. Take Mega Salamence, who was not only blatantly overpowered, but also extremely centralizing to the metagame. People were forced to use otherwise shit mons like Porygon2, HP Ice Rotom, HP Ice Zapdos, etc. to "counter" it. Once Mence was banned, these mons simply faded into obscurity. Rotom went back to using its normal set, and P2 disappeared completely.

So when you say that the shift isnt supposed to be about mons becoming less popular, youre wrong. If Gross is truly centralizing to the metagame to the point where everyone is forced to use mons soley to check / counter it, then it is only logical for their usage to decrease in an environment where gross is not present. This has nothing to do with Gross keeping threats in line, which, if you want to bring that point up, is easily demonstrated by the increase in usage of Fairy types both offensively and defensively now that their main check, Metagross, is not present in the tier. My point was also not pro-ban, either.
 
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I wasnt planning on posting anymore in this thread, but I then saw this.
that mentality is a great way to never leave. (says the banned guy)
Not to one liner but, Metagross should be banned because, bulk-speed-power-coverage is just barely too over the top for OU, opportunity cost, balance and offense centralization and the meta is just so much better without it.
 
I have some problems with banning something just because it is claimed to be unhealthy for the metagame. Not that I don't think that unhealthy things shouldn't be banned, but without a concrete standard for what's unhealthy, this becomes a lot more subjective than arguing whether something is broken or not. Something's effect on the metagame is pretty widespread and cannot be fully comprehended or calculated by us -- I think we constantly overestimate our abilities in this regard. Granted we can definitely make a lot of observations, but nobody can ever predict all the trends that occur after a ban which leads me to believe we don't understand the effects that the mon we banned has on the metagame as well as we thought we did.

Then there's also the issue of what a healthy metagame actually is. I think most of us agree that no broken mons running around and a certain amount of diversity in mons/teambuilds/playstyles is healthy. But after that people have their own opinions. For example some believe that we need to reduce matchup reliance, while others claim that this is a part of the game. I personally believe matchup reliance is just part of pokemon, and although I am not against the idea of trying to reduce it somewhat, the issue becomes at what point do we stop? There's no concrete way to describe when the matchup reliance crosses the threshold from being too much to being ok. Combine this with an ever growing roster of pokemon and I just don't think it makes a lot of sense to ban things until all threats can be accounted for in teambuilding, because we'll end up banning a lot of non-broken shit just so people with a certain viewpoint (read: not necessarily the majority of players) enjoy the game more.

If we are going to ban something I think there needs to be a standardized basis for why it should go. Being broken or uncompetitive fall under this -- that's why we have varying definitions for traits of being broken -- but "being unhealthy for the metagame" does not. And like I said the problem with rigorously defining what is unhealthy for the metagame leads us to defining what a healthy metagame is which will never be fully agreed upon. Thus, something being unhealthy for the meta is kind of a weird argument because it isn't convincing at all unless you already agree. For example it is being argued that Metagross is overcentralizing (and this is unhealthy), but I'm still not totally sure what exactly that means. Obviously we don't see Arcanines running around just to counter it, but it is very possible that it leads to a higher usage of Landorus-T which is a common check.

tl;dr: Let's try to define some of the terms a little more clearly otherwise misunderstandings arise (also new definitions for broken traits may be in order as WebBowser has pointed out). Beyond that I think if we can't agree on a definition then it becomes a shaky basis for banning something.
The problem with your proposal as that no matter what definition is established, regardless if one takes it in or out of context, at the end of the day the subjectivity will always be there based on the individual person whom you may ask. This applies to every single aspect you mentioned from the healthy metagame aspect, the nature of uncompetitive elements, broken Pokemon. A standardized is based on the community preference more so than one that you can put down in text and give yourself the illusion that it's all set and done. No matter how much objectivity you try to instill and apply to people there will always be that aspect that will ignore the objectivity and go based on preference and desires. Ask two players what's broken or unhealthy in the metagame and surely you'll get similar answers, but I guarantee you both of them will say something that is left field or not a concern to the other player. A good example of the standardized definition of what's unhealthy was Mega Salamence where the community almost as a whole agreed it was bad for the meta-game. A good example to show where the lines are drawn and the subjective aspects are put out on the table is this current suspect test, where everyone has their reasons but as you read each have differences and will even openly admit that it may not be an aspect of being broken but something that has to do with their own needs or another element being discussed. That's my response to this.

Also this is your 30 minute warning, for everyone, to say what needs to be said before I lock this.
 

bludz

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I agree there's no way to make it completely objective, and I guess it was my fault for coming off that way if I did. But it's just a major fault I find with the "unhealthy for the meta" argument, which is very difficult to form a basis for without some kind of definition. It's less about the proposal (this was honestly more of an add-on, it was my mistake to tag it as tl;dr) and more that I think that these arguments are flawed by naturally being more subjective than the others, which is why being broken or uncompetitive has been the standard for a while.

Edit: BTW Salamence as an example is fine because while it was definitely unhealthy for the metagame, it was also obviously broken. Arguing something is unhealthy and we should ban it because of that but admitting it isn't broken is what I take issue with
 
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that mentality is a great way to never leave. (says the banned guy)
Not to one liner but, Metagross should be banned because, bulk-speed-power-coverage is just barely too over the top for OU, opportunity cost, balance and offense centralization and the meta is just so much better without it.
The meta being better or worse is completely up to whoever's talking. I feel that the suspect ladder didn't even change much. It was the same except that metagross was gone. Also he is a top tier threat, sure. But he isn't as impossible to check/counter as people keep saying. He is very good but he doesn't make any pokemon unplayable(that weren't already) and he doesn't really force you to use anything weird.
 
The meta being better or worse is completely up to whoever's talking. I feel that the suspect ladder didn't even change much. It was the same except that metagross was gone. Also he is a top tier threat, sure. But he isn't as impossible to check/counter as people keep saying. He is very good but he doesn't make any pokemon unplayable(that weren't already) and he doesn't really force you to use anything weird.
Actually it was much more diverse and a lot more stuff became viable, like gardevoir, terrakion and Pinsir and a lot of the pressure on balance and offense was lifted letting you be more creative with teambuilding. Thats definitely a more healthy meta.
 

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What constitutes an enjoyable meta is ultimately subjective, and will differ from person to person. For instance I did not enjoy the suspect ladder metagame because I felt the prominence of balance teams on the ladder was overwhelming, as was the presence of Fairies on a lot of teams and the way they restricted teambuilding in my eyes. However I know a lot of people don't share that view, which is obviously perfectly fine, everyone has their own opinions. It's also the same reason that I'm basing my vote solely on what I think of Metagross and whether it's broken or not as a Pokemon by itself, not by the effect it's ban or not will have on the metagame. I see it as a top threat but not a broken one, as I've stated all along.
 
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I feel that mgross's presence didn't make those pokes less viable and creativity in teambuilding? He didn't force you into not being creative and in fact, more creativity would be much appreciated. He works like all sranks: you need to have something to stop them from steamrolling your team. You have to consider him even building but, you also have to consider a bunch of other stuff too and having to think of them doesn't scream broken to me.

Honestly this voting is just gonna be based off whether or not you like mega metagross.
 
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