np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

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-gizmo-

Smogon's Kingpin
Alright, now that I've laddered and gotten reqs for the suspect test, I feel it's time that I share my opinion on metagross.

Thoughts After Laddering: To be honest, not much has changed in the suspect metagame. Though, creating a great metagame takes more than one ban I suppose. The name of the game is still balance, though, without metagross there are many more hyper offensive teams. Though hyper offense has lost a steel that manages to be bulky, hit hard, and reach a good speed tier was a bit of a blow, the archetype also lost one of its biggest threats. Metagross absolutely wreaked havoc on common hyper offense builds, having no switch ins and forcing you to "play around" it.

Is It Broken?: I don't think anyone could ever try to argue that mega metagross is a broken pokemon, beacause honestly,I don't think it is. The real question is if metagross is "unhealthy for the current overused metagame". The first thing that bothers me is metagross' sheer power + coverage. It's a pain for any sort of offensive team to switch into, while still holding its own vs defensive play styles/stall because it still hits pretty damn hard. But is it too strong? Not really. Is it too fast? Nope. Is its coverage really that impossible to play around? I wouldn't say so. Yet, in my opinion, it's still unhealthy for the metagame. Meta isn't outright broken, but I feel it's just too solid. With 80/150/110 defensive stats, A great move pool with good filler options(grass knot,pursuit, even ice punch) a great ability pre and after mega, and a good defensive typing(9 resistances and 1 immunity rocks resist), I think metagross may be arguably unhealthy for the metagame, but on the other hand, even with all this, it does have a good amount of checks in the ou metagame. Though most of meta's checks can be bopped, and that brings up the terrible argument centered around prediction, and these checks should still be noticed as ways to combat metagross.

Final Thoughts: Not going to type something crazy long, but I'd have to say metagross has an unhealthy effect on the metagame, being an abnormally huge threat to most teams, especially balanced offense (one of the more common playstyles in this metagame) It's an overbearing force that is just downright unhealthy, and is helping to create a stagnant metagame with people using Pokemon that don't really fit on their teams instead of new sets and Pokemon being used that show a shift in the metagame. Please BAN
 

Clone

Free Gliscor
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Jukain

I'm not gonna reply to your entire post because frankly, I don't have the time. However, some of the stuff you said simply doesn't make sense to me.

First off, I, and many others who are anti ban, do not expect "a ban to fix everything that's wrong with the metagame." I can't speak for others, but what I expect from a ban is a significant shift towards a more enjoyable meta (keyword significant - it does no good if a ban barely changes anything). Metagross does not provide that significant shift, which leads to my next point.

You say that the suspect ladder is not representative of the post Metagross metagame. Um, how is it not representative of it? The whole point of gross being banned on the ladder is so that we can see what the meta is like with it gone. Yeah there are people who play it just for getting reqs, but to say that most people don't care about experimenting is a severe exaggeration. I've already stated that I did not notice very much change, and I still stand by that. However, I did say that Clefable (and in hindsight, Diancie and Mega Altaria) are more prominent as the most notable difference. This does not show a significant enough shift towards a more enjoyable metagame. The difference is slight. And if that difference is only slight, then a ban for that reason is simply not warranted. Furthermore, even if the suspect ladder isn't representative of the new metagame, it still shows a glimpse of what it will be like. And like I said in my previous post, all the same mons exist. Ferro, Slowbro, Lando T, Gliscor, ScarfTar, Bulky Chomp, Clefable, Heatran, Mega Altaria, etc still plague this balance infested metagame. And no, these are obviously not all Metagross checks. But of those that are (Lando t, ferro, ScarfTar, Slowbro, chomp), they still exist and have not lost viability in the new metagame. And for the record, I say ferro checks Metagross because it's too easy to pivot it into the safe Meteor Mash to rack up iron Barbs damage, and to switch out the following turn into something like say, a Lando T, which gets off an intimidate since Metagross has now mega evolved. Obviously ferro is not staying in on hammer arm unless it has t wave, in which case 70% damage in return for a para and 25% recoil damage is a fair trade. Regardless, I'm getting off track.

Finally, I want to touch on offense and its matchup vs. Metagross. As a player who uses offense and offensive balance pretty much exclusively, I'm fairly confident when I say that gross's matchup vs it is severely exaggerated. Is it a threat? Fuck yeah it is. Is it unbeatable, or make it so that my chances of winning are slim to none? Not in the slightest. It's on par with other monsters such as Life Orb Bisharp, or Specs Keldeo. Hell, mega Lopunny is a shiton more threatening than Metagross is because of its incredible speed tier. Anyways, back to Metagross. Metagross has to find a way to come in in order to safely mega evolve. And to do that, it either comes in on a resisted hit (such as a Latios Draco), or through a revenge kill. In either case, the switch in is not free as many people make it out to be. Assuming the former, gross is taking crucial damage that allows it to be revenged later on in the game. I've said multiple times on PS, and once in the thread, that gross is never at 100%. And it's not. Realistic game scenarios have it at somewhere near 70-80%, and even that's a bit high. Offense has enough offensive pressure that Metagross is often in range of being revenge killed by Talonflame, ScarfTar, Scarf Lando, Garchomp, what have you. Yeah gross has teammates for them but this goes both ways. Team matchup is a thing and one player is bound to have it. That player will not always being the one using Metagross.

And I just quickly want to say that I'm fully aware that RP. Is a thing and it fucks up offense, but then it loses out on crucial coverage against balance. It's set determines its checks and counters, and unlike Greninja (or any other comparison people are making) it simply does not have the raw power to break through them when it lacks that coverage. Each set has its checks, and even then there are universal checks that are found on all of offense, balance, and stall. Refer to Agent Gibbs's post where he defines a check there, because I'm referring to those.

Lastly, what megas are held back in viability lol. Chances are if you're using gross, you're using gross because you wanna use gross, not something else. Even those that lose to it such as Diancie, Altaria, and Gallade are plenty viable as it is now. This extends to anything else gross checks. They're still present and still viable. Just look at Clefable. This isn't Aegislash where mega Hera, Gardevoir, Medicham, Hawlucha, Starmie, Slowbro, Celebi, a Mew, Terrakion, etc were pretty much fucked if Aegislash was on the opposing team. Gross doesn't do that. It just checks its targets just like Latios checks it's targets. Gross is a top tier mon that is just as threatening as any other top tier mon. The strain it puts on teambuilding is no more of a strain that Latios, Bisharp, Lopunny, Keldeo, Zard X, etc exert. It's already been stated multiple times that gross is not broken by BOTH sides of the spectrum. Once you take a look at this, you'll see that its place in OU. Is not unhealthy. It's presence keeps certain mons or cores in check without being broken. This isn't broken checking broken. Metagross's presence in the metagame isn't a negative one, and it shouldn't be banned just to "change the meta".

Holy fuck that was longer than I thought it would be
 
People are opnely admitting that you need to run multiple Pokemon to stop MegaGross. Hello? How is this fair? You need to have more than one teamslot dedicated to stopping this threat? How can this be fair? That is ridiculous. A pokemon bulky enough to live hits from HO and fast and strong enough to destroy balance and stall, which you need to carry two checks for? In what universe is this 'not broken?' 110 Speed, better bulk in every way than Skarmory, and insane offensive stats combined with a Life Orb Boost and the movepool to absolutely abuse it. There is no stat or area in which MegaGross is bad.
I've addressed this in a post a long way back, but disregarding the fact that you don't even NEED to run more than one pokemon to beat it if you don't want to (M-Scizor hard counters), keep in mind that it's the best pokemon in the tier so it's simply not going to always be a cakewalk to KO it. It's the best of the best, what else can you expect? I'm not going to rehash my old points in too much depth but it can be beaten by using common cores that have myriad other benefits besides beating Gross. You can use cores like Lando-T/M-Manectric, or you can use any effective core really. I only added that last sentence to preemptively refute the argument that being forced to run common cores limits diversity, and seeing as Smogon doesn't see a lack of diversity as a prominent metagame issue, I don't see the problem with taking this route.

Wanna use one pokemon to beat it? Use its hard counters. Or use a core that's effective against the entire metagame in addition to Megagross. Or use however many checks you feel comfortable with. You have plenty of options.

And I can't stress this enough, it's not ridiculous that you can't always have a safe switchin to a single pokemon, this has been happening with a few pokemon since BW. This is nothing new.
 
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lol jesus christ clone you've gone insane

First off, I, and many others who are anti ban, do not expect "a ban to fix everything that's wrong with the metagame." I can't speak for others, but what I expect from a ban is a significant shift towards a more enjoyable meta (keyword significant - it does no good if a ban barely changes anything). Metagross does not provide that significant shift, which leads to my next point.
not reaching your unrealistic expectations of how you want the metagame to be doesn't justify not banning something for the sole reason of it not accomplishing what you want. ORAS is a remake of an old game and only introduced new mega evolutions and some relatively unimportant hidden abilities, not something like the introduction of x/y that 100% changed OU.

You say that the suspect ladder is not representative of the post Metagross metagame. Um, how is it not representative of it? The whole point of gross being banned on the ladder is so that we can see what the meta is like with it gone. Yeah there are people who play it just for getting reqs, but to say that most people don't care about experimenting is a severe exaggeration. I've already stated that I did not notice very much change, and I still stand by that. However, I did say that Clefable (and in hindsight, Diancie and Mega Altaria) are more prominent as the most notable difference. This does not show a significant enough shift towards a more enjoyable metagame. The difference is slight. And if that difference is only slight, then a ban for that reason is simply not warranted. Furthermore, even if the suspect ladder isn't representative of the new metagame, it still shows a glimpse of what it will be like. And like I said in my previous post, all the same mons exist. Ferro, Slowbro, Lando T, Gliscor, ScarfTar, Bulky Chomp, Clefable, Heatran, Mega Altaria, etc still plague this balance infested metagame.
It actually isn't! Literally every player has access to this ladder, regardless of whether they even know what the overused tier is or what a "suspect ladder" is as well, and that 100% includes high ladder players as they are far from indicators of ability or metagame changes. Like I said before, a "slight" difference as opposed to a large one is not a reason for something to be not banned. Also, expecting top level metagame threats to disappear due to the effect of one hardly polarizing mega evolution is not a justification for keeping a blatantly broken thing in the tier.

Finally, I want to touch on offense and its matchup vs. Metagross. As a player who uses offense and offensive balance pretty much exclusively, I'm fairly confident when I say that gross's matchup vs it is severely exaggerated. Is it a threat? Fuck yeah it is. Is it unbeatable, or make it so that my chances of winning are slim to none? Not in the slightest. It's on par with other monsters such as Life Orb Bisharp, or Specs Keldeo. Hell, mega Lopunny is a shiton more threatening than Metagross is because of its incredible speed tier. Anyways, back to Metagross. Metagross has to find a way to come in in order to safely mega evolve. And to do that, it either comes in on a resisted hit (such as a Latios Draco), or through a revenge kill. In either case, the switch in is not free as many people make it out to be. Assuming the former, gross is taking crucial damage that allows it to be revenged later on in the game. I've said multiple times on PS, and once in the thread, that gross is never at 100%. And it's not. Realistic game scenarios have it at somewhere near 70-80%, and even that's a bit high. Offense has enough offensive pressure that Metagross is often in range of being revenge killed by Talonflame, ScarfTar, Scarf Lando, Garchomp, what have you. Yeah gross has teammates for them but this goes both ways. Team matchup is a thing and one player is bound to have it. That player will not always being the one using Metagross.
Haha, nope! your subjective opinion on what gives your particular hyper offense archetypes trouble does not reflect what troubles the playstyle itself. Metagross is not even close to specs keldeo and bisharp in terms of how it can terrorize offense. it's bulk and ability to destroy its checks with its coverage is something that is literally impossible for keldeo and bisharp to overcome, not to mention the fact that metagross is both stronger and faster than bisharp, as well as faster than keldeo. also, building a team and preparing for metagross under the assumption that it will "never be at 100%" is downright awful and sets an awful example for new players on how to deal with certain threats, and you should seriously be ashamed for misleading players to acquire lazy teambuilding habits.

Lastly, what megas are held back in viability lol. Chances are if you're using gross, you're using gross because you wanna use gross, not something else. Even those that lose to it such as Diancie, Altaria, and Gallade are plenty viable as it is now. This extends to anything else gross checks. They're still present and still viable. Just look at Clefable. This isn't Aegislash where mega Hera, Gardevoir, Medicham, Hawlucha, Starmie, Slowbro, Celebi, a Mew, Terrakion, etc were pretty much fucked if Aegislash was on the opposing team. Gross doesn't do that. It just checks its targets just like Latios checks it's targets. Gross is a top tier mon that is just as threatening as any other top tier mon. The strain it puts on teambuilding is no more of a strain that Latios, Bisharp, Lopunny, Keldeo, Zard X, etc exert. It's already been stated multiple times that gross is not broken by BOTH sides of the spectrum. Once you take a look at this, you'll see that its place in OU. Is not unhealthy. It's presence keeps certain mons or cores in check without being broken. This isn't broken checking broken. Metagross's presence in the metagame isn't a negative one, and it shouldn't be banned just to "change the meta".
this post has next to zero substance and doesn't actually add to any discussion, and i'm having trouble approaching it



what i'm trying to get at with this post is I'm not criticizing you for your objective black or white opinion on metagross, but rather the fact that you're in a position to influence players on this forum due to your high activity and forum presence, but instead present blatantly biased and incorrect opinions. ive seen great arguments for metagross to be not banned, but yours garner the most attention in tandem with providing the least logic, and it bothers me to think that people might vote based on the rationale of what you've been posting.
 
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Henry

At the moment, the primary argument for banning Mega Metagross is that it is overcentralizing and that by banning it, the metagame will be less centralized. I've never actually seen a definition of "centralizing", but from what I've seen, an "overcentralizing mon" is one that causes teams to deviate significantly (as in, dedicate one or two slots) to simply check it and little else. If this were the case, then we would expect that banning mega metagross would cause team comps to change drastically, because players won't have to run crappy do nothing checks just to prevent mega metagross from sweeping your team. As -Clone- has stated, and I can attest to, this has not happened. This implies that most of the mons used to check mmeta were already good mons, meaning that mmeta isn't overcentralizing.

Now, if you'd like to argue that mmeta was actually broken, then I'll be happy to listen (indeed, I actually thought this was the case less then a week ago). However, I have not seen or heard any arguments on this thread to convince me that mmeta is broken (including my own).
 

Bluwing

icequeen
is a Tutor Alumnus
u know what this shit is getting too dumb..

(Now, if you'd like to argue that mmeta was actually broken, then I'll be happy to listen (indeed, I actually thought this was the case less then a week ago). However, I have not seen or heard any arguments on this thread to convince me that mmeta is broken (including my own).)

sorry if this is comes out in any way off calling u out, but man this is not true!


i think we need to clear this up, whether or not metagross is banworthy or not doesn't come down to how the suspect ladder plays or how broken other suspected mons have been before it. people have to realize that a suspect test is to gain more knowledge in how the mete "might" play out without the suspected pokemon being present in the meta, or vice versa if lets say a pokemon is dropped into the meta to being suspected, then the mon is being tested out in the meta. however there is a lot off arguments on metagross being broken or not, but we can not only look at the pokemon itself remember this is a metagame not 1v1. we can not ban only because we don't like the pokemon and because u "feel" it's to strong or too centralizing.

well theres a lot off good arguments on both sides off the spectrum, i have to say that seeing metagross as banworthy or not is really hard because i fell it lays a lot in the middle. you have to consider every small detail from how the meta will be with or without metagross to actually make a picture for yourself on how the meta will play out in the future, ofc no one can say AND the suspect ladder is not a good way to do this nor a good argument to state metagross beeing banworthy or not as it only shows a small picture on how the metagame will or can get.

i am not gonna drag up a ton off arguments here, but look through the thread, have wider look at the whole picture here before u make ur decision or make posts that will only consume little to no information or discussion OR drag the discission into a loop off irrelevant stuff like the suspect ladder.
 
Henry

At the moment, the primary argument for banning Mega Metagross is that it is overcentralizing and that by banning it, the metagame will be less centralized. I've never actually seen a definition of "centralizing", but from what I've seen, an "overcentralizing mon" is one that causes teams to deviate significantly (as in, dedicate one or two slots) to simply check it and little else. If this were the case, then we would expect that banning mega metagross would cause team comps to change drastically, because players won't have to run crappy do nothing checks just to prevent mega metagross from sweeping your team. As -Clone- has stated, and I can attest to, this has not happened. This implies that most of the mons used to check mmeta were already good mons, meaning that mmeta isn't overcentralizing.

Now, if you'd like to argue that mmeta was actually broken, then I'll be happy to listen (indeed, I actually thought this was the case less then a week ago). However, I have not seen or heard any arguments on this thread to convince me that mmeta is broken (including my own).
You're talking about a ladder that has existed for all of 2 weeks(?) and you expect signifigant shifts to happen in that short time, you yourself just laddered with a bp team with minor changes to it's overall composition so it would function a little bit better than before. What happens on the ladder is that the higher-end ladder players will build a team that has a good enough match-up versus most other team archetypes and has a way to handle most of the mons in the higher usage bracket and rely on plays to win unfavorable match-ups.

It's a suspect ladder you can't expect a bunch of people who want to get reqs as fast as possible as easy as possible to use anything other than what helps accomplish that.

Also where did Henry say anything about his own views on the suspect in that post anyways? He was just pointing out incorrect information.
 
It's the best of the best, what else can you expect?
This is exactly the reason why I want Metagross out of OU. It's the best of the best and there are no real flaws to using it. Pokemon such as Zard and Pinsir have to worry about stealth rock, Scizor has to play carefully around magnezone, and has to be wary of HP Fire/flamethrower and such, Sableye has to watch out for fairies, Diancie is very frail and has a 4x Steel weakness among common rock ones, etc. All the other megas in OU have some sort of hindering flaw and Metagross lacks this besides things that hit him super-effectively.

I just don't want something running around that is a top-tier "jack of all trades". The guy has everything a sweeper wants, and he can reliably boost with Hone Claws even though it isn't as good as SD. Mega Meta has a variety of viable sets, and each set allows him to get past a certain threat that would usually wall him. Or he can destroy offense with RP/Agility loadout. So basically, you have to pray that the metagross counter/check you brought is able to deal with the type of metagross that the opponent brought.

Mega Metagross reminds me of the UMP.45 from Modern Warfare 2.
High-reward, non-existent risk. That's Metagross' entire deal. There is no drawback to using this thing.

- You can repeatedly switch him in and out due to a SR resistance.
- He resists the vast majority of priority (and Sucker Punch isn't even reliable damage).
- He sits in a great speed tier, and beats most of the things in his speed tier.
- He has awesome bulk, and acts as a great "Last Man Standing" because of his resistances.
- He has access to priority
- He has unpredictability. Zen Headbutt and Meteor Mash/Iron Head are the only two moves you can be sure of.
- His movepool allows him to get around would-be counters. (and his pool isn't lacking)
- Most of his weaknesses are easily manageable. Ghost is the exception.
- He wrecks offense and balance
- Not hard to build a team around, and is very self sufficient.
- He can take hits and dish out damage, so he helps to break things for other sweepers on the squad. Meta is a great team player.
- Steel/Psychic is such an awkward offensive typing that it works in metagross' favor.

Now there are tons of other stuff, but most of the points have already been brought up, and I don't want this list to get silly in length.
Anyway, if you like Metagross, then vote for him to stay if you made reqs.
 
Fuck bans they are overrated. According to this article, we are to make a fun metagame by adding as few rules (i.e. bans) as possible. Otherwise it won't be "fun" because, who likes to play a heavily modded game? There needs to be a balance between fun and aherence to the original game. Increasing one compromises the other. We can't just keep on banning things like there's no limit, because there is a limit, and every ban we make is a cost to adherence which I feel a lot of pro-ban arguments are ignoring.

So, only stupidly broken stuff like MegaMence can outweigh the (already heavy) cost of a ban. We are banning borderline shit like MegaGross just for a tiny step "towards a better meta" - sounds like BS to me, and who the fuck knows how many more bans are needed for that to even happen.

No ban.

(edit: simplicity --> adherence)
 
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FrocoTerra

Banned deucer.
Fuck bans they are overrated. According to this article, we are to make a fun metagame by adding as few rules (i.e. bans) as possible. Otherwise it won't be "fun" because, who likes to play a heavily modded game? There needs to be a balance between fun and simplicity. Increasing one compromises the other. We can't just keep on banning things like there's no limit, because there is a limit, and every ban we make is a cost to simplicity which I feel a lot of pro-ban arguments are ignoring. Why did we ban Greninja and not specifically Timid Protean Gunk Shot Greninja? Simplicity again.

So, only stupidly broken stuff like MegaMence can outweigh the (already heavy) cost of a ban. We are banning borderline shit like MegaGross just for a tiny step "towards a better meta" - sounds like BS to me, and who the fuck knows how many more bans are needed for that to even happen.

No ban.
What? I hope you aren't serious. You are saying that the game will be more 'simple' if MegaGross isn't banned? Really? That is a logical argument for you?

1. How on earth is that possibly more simple? Does it really take that much of an effort to remember that Metagrossite the item is banned? I'm sure it's really not that complicated for one thing to be banned.

2. Even if it were more simple to not ban MegaGross, how does that matter in any way? The aim of the suspect is to make a more balanced meta, not a simpler one.
 
What? I hope you aren't serious. You are saying that the game will be more 'simple' if MegaGross isn't banned? Really? That is a logical argument for you?

1. How on earth is that possibly more simple? Does it really take that much of an effort to remember that Metagrossite the item is banned? I'm sure it's really not that complicated for one thing to be banned.

2. Even if it were more simple to not ban MegaGross, how does that matter in any way? The aim of the suspect is to make a more balanced meta, not a simpler one.
You completely missed my point. Read again. In the short term it's just a ban, no big deal. But for a ban that doesn't resolve anything more than a progression to a better metagame, we lose out in the long run - we are relying on this ban AND succeeding bans just to solve a little imbalance we're not currently happy with. No doubt that GF will keep releasing more powerful shit in the future so it's only a matter of time before we have to accept it, like in Gen 4 when it's no longer possible to counter everything. Either that, or increase our banlist to an outrageous number of mons and we have essentially "modded" this game beyond repair. Fun metagame, but no adherence to the original. And just to be clear - I'm not saying that's where we are at right now, but is where things are slowly heading towards.

If you're correct that the aim here is to make a more balanced meta no matter how small the improvement may be, then it's a policy issue, and I apologize for bringing it up in this thread.

EDIT: ok I guess "simplicity" wasn't the right word (tagging Master Sunny-EX). By simplicity I meant less rules, or "modding the game less" if that makes sense.
 
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Fuck bans they are overrated. According to this article, we are to make a fun metagame by adding as few rules (i.e. bans) as possible. Otherwise it won't be "fun" because, who likes to play a heavily modded game? There needs to be a balance between fun and simplicity. Increasing one compromises the other. We can't just keep on banning things like there's no limit, because there is a limit, and every ban we make is a cost to simplicity which I feel a lot of pro-ban arguments are ignoring. Why did we ban Greninja and not specifically Timid Protean Gunk Shot Greninja? Simplicity again.

So, only stupidly broken stuff like MegaMence can outweigh the (already heavy) cost of a ban. We are banning borderline shit like MegaGross just for a tiny step "towards a better meta" - sounds like BS to me, and who the fuck knows how many more bans are needed for that to even happen.

No ban.
That is a very awkward stance to take? I mean who's to say that banning it will not make the metagame simpler and more fun as opposed to not banning it? The whole goal is here is to land up with a more balanced metagame so what you're saying about stuff being simple is frankly irrelevant. Regardless if you did get reqs you have a chance to let your voice be heard I guess.
 
The issue with mega meta can be summarised as "it's difficult to revenge kill or check."
That's it. Some here expressed their surprise at the notion that it limits building of HO teams since such teams shouldn't be scrambling for switch-ins in the first place, and that's a given. But I think the issue here isn't that it limits them counter wise, but check wise. Few mons on HO possess enough speed and power to muscle through mega meta, i.e. check it.
Stall/balance teams usually have enough cores to deal with/play around mega meta's limited coverage moves so it doesn't trouble them as it does HO.
Does it render HO unplayable? I don't think so but it hurts it a lot.
 
I didnt go far in the suspect ladder, so my thoughts can obviously be wrong, but i saw a heatran overusing. That may be because heatran is strong against fairies for being a steel-type, strong against steels for being a fire type and strong against fire-types for having the flash fire ability.As many people said in this suspect, fairies wont go on a rampage if only because of scizor, skarmory, heatran, magnezone and ferrothorn.

About MegaGross, he is somewhat like MegaKhan(both are bulky and strong, have abilities to boost their attack and advantage over a certain kind of items/abilities/attacks in the meta(SR and toxic for metagross, sash,sturdy and substitute for megakhan)

Now to some comparations:
1-type: Megakhan 1 immunity 1 weakness
Megagross 1 immunity 1 double resistance 8 resistances 4 weaknesses
2-attack x ability Megakhan 1.5 x 125 = 187.5
Megagross 1.3 x 145 = 188.5

Tough claws requires contact moves, but hey, both are physical sweepers, and most physical sweeping attacks make contact.

3- bulk
8.6 - 10.2% for mega metagross 50 physical attack


10.5 - 12.5% for mega kangashkhan same

11.2 - 13.2% megagross 50 special attack

10.5 - 12.5% megakhan 50 special attack

thats the damage they take from attacks made by blank page mew with no critical hitting. Thank you ORAS damage calculator!

4-speed
base speed 110(MegaGross) is higher than 100(MegaKhan)


they have both versatile movesets.

tell me if i made a mistake, but it seems megagross is equal or beter than megakhan, thus they should be in the same tier.

you can call me pro-ban, but my dream was megakhan coming back to OU
 
Thread's staying open for about 8 more hours or so and then I'm locking it, approximately 3:30 p.m GMT-5 just to give you guys an idea. So if you have anything relevant to say for the purpose of meeting the subjective requirement for Tiering Contributor (paragraph), to reply to the feedback of others, or just a general statement on your point of view, do so within this 8 hour period and if you have a friend who was meaning to do so but hasn't let them know. Once the thread is locked it's gonna be locked for the remainder of the suspect test regardless if you guys are in a heated debate or whatever the situation may be. Stick to the subject at hand M-Metagross and any questions or concerns about this particular comment in general should be expressed via PM to myself as I won't be replying to this particular comment on this thread. Thanks.
 
I didnt go far in the suspect ladder, so my thoughts can obviously be wrong, but i saw a heatran overusing. That may be because heatran is strong against fairies for being a steel-type, strong against steels for being a fire type and strong against fire-types for having the flash fire ability.As many people said in this suspect, fairies wont go on a rampage if only because of scizor, skarmory, heatran, magnezone and ferrothorn.

About MegaGross, he is somewhat like MegaKhan(both are bulky and strong, have abilities to boost their attack and advantage over a certain kind of items/abilities/attacks in the meta(SR and toxic for metagross, sash,sturdy and substitute for megakhan)

Now to some comparations:
1-type: Megakhan 1 immunity 1 weakness
Megagross 1 immunity 1 double resistance 8 resistances 4 weaknesses
2-attack x ability Megakhan 1.5 x 125 = 187.5
Megagross 1.3 x 145 = 188.5

Tough claws requires contact moves, but hey, both are physical sweepers, and most physical sweeping attacks make contact.

3- bulk
8.6 - 10.2% for mega metagross 50 physical attack


10.5 - 12.5% for mega kangashkhan same

11.2 - 13.2% megagross 50 special attack

10.5 - 12.5% megakhan 50 special attack

thats the damage they take from attacks made by blank page mew with no critical hitting. Thank you ORAS damage calculator!

4-speed
base speed 110(MegaGross) is higher than 100(MegaKhan)


they have both versatile movesets.

tell me if i made a mistake, but it seems megagross is equal or beter than megakhan, thus they should be in the same tier.

you can call me pro-ban, but my dream was megakhan coming back to OU
Kangaskhan has a swords dance that does damage, can break subs and still hit the opponent, breaks sashes, has more powerful priority, its moves generally have higher base power so the attack can't be compared like that, and can run a bulky wish/stoss set. You simply can't compare the two at all, and there are a lot more reasons than what I just gave.

Mega metagross isn't (as many, many people have pointed out) anywhere near the level of earlier threats that got banned such as the aforementioned mega kangaskhan. The fact that it isn't blatantly overpowered isn't really a good anti-ban argument though, since there are other reasons that can get something banned.

It's fairly obvious that megagross puts a lot of strain on the metagame. For those saying it reduces the strain because it keeps fairies in check, that way of thinking is just plain wrong. There are still fairies running around - metagross isn't stopping people from using them, so what will you do? Bring metagross on every team? Bring fairies and hope they don't bring metagross? How about preparing for metagross despite the fact that you're now beaten by CM keld/rp lando/fairies/whatever other threats are running around that you can't beat on top of metagross? This sort of matchup garbage is exactly what everyone wants to avoid, and it's one of the reasons bans happen in the first place.

A big problem is the development of the meta in the event that metagross doesn't get banned. I'm of the opinion that banning a few things to make a less matchup oriented metagame is a better option than either bringing other things down and creating a volatile broken-beats-broken metagame, or simply having the metagame sit like it is now. I don't think anybody here really likes the meta as it is, so who would honestly want us to get stuck with it?

So no, metagross isn't something you can just slap on your team and suddenly win with if they don't have their own, but that doesn't make it any less banworthy.

Also, what's wrong with banning things until the meta becomes stable? Bans aren't inherently bad, and the meta generally won't become less diverse when things are banned, rather it gets more diverse as lower tier threats become more prominent.
 
The only Pokémon in the current standard that can stop MegaGross is Skarmory, and Skarmory can only stop MegaGross for 1 turn since he'll obviously switch, and MegaGross ALWAYS have a teammate that can check Skarmory, such as Magnezone and Heatran. And since MegaGross have 105 base SPATK, his Grass knot can OHKO Swampert, Quagsire and severely hurts defensive Rotom-W and M-Slowbro even with 0 EVs in spatk. Everything he needs is a Hasty / Naive nature. Therefore, there's no real check or counter for MegaGross, and he's 100% unhealthy for the actual metagame. And unban megas that are currently banned isn't the solution for the MegaGross trouble, since Kangas, Lucario, Mawile and Gengar can't 1vs1 him anyway. Unbanning them would only turn the meta more unhealthy than it already is and Salamence will stay in ubers for a long, long time. Then, i think Metagrossite MUST be banned. (Sorry for my bad english, i'm doing my best)
 
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The only Pokémon in the current standard that can stop MegaGross is Skarmory,
No. Ferrothorn can (if no Hammer Arm), Quagsire can (if no Grass Knot), and Defensive MegaS cizor is safe. Also Pokémon such as Klefki can take hit and force him to switch out.

and Skarmory can only stop MegaGross for 1 turn since he'll obviously switch, and MegaGross ALWAYS have a teammate that can check Skarmory, such as Magnezone and Heatran.
Yes. He is a top tiers, he doesn't need a lot of support to do his job well, even if i guess you are misundersanting the point of Metagross. He is more a breaker than a finisher.

And since MegaGross have 105 base SPATK, his Grass knot can OHKO Swampert, Quagsire and severely hurts defensive Rotom-W and M-Slowbro even with 0 EVs in spatk.
He doesn't hurt Rotom-W with Grass Knot, he does 0. Metagross hurts Rotom-W with Zen Headbutt.

Therefore, there's no real check or counter for MegaGross,
"Skarmory", "Ferrothorn", "Sableye", "Mew", "Excadrill", "Landorus-Therian", "Quagsire", "Defensive Mega Scizor",... I won't list everyone, I guess you got you are wrong.

and he's 100% unhealthy for the actual metagame.
It helps to handle most of Fairy-types without being broken. He is also a fantastic breaker for offensive teams.

And unban megas that are currently banned isn't the solution for the MegaGross trouble, since Kangas, Lucario, Mawile and Gengar can't 1vs1 him anyway.
Who the fuck said it was a good idea to unban these monsters?

Unbanning them would only turn the meta more unhealthy than it already is and Salamence will stay in ubers for a long, long time. (Sorry for my bad english, i'm doing my best)[/quote]
The metagame is not unhealthy and won't be healthier with Metagross gone.
 
Someone said that Kangaskhan should return to OU (?). And MegaGross overcentralize the meta. I need to put more than 2 Pokémon only to handle / check him, because if i don't, he'll crush my entire team. He isn't healthy for the metagame, and Heatran, Magnezone, Skarmory and many other Pokémon can handle fairies easily. That's an useless argument.
 
Power Up Punch is no SD: it boosts attack by 1 and swords dance boosts by 2

Sucker punch is no STAB and hardly reliable: More powerful priority?

more base damage: double edge has recoil and, ok, earthquake/seismic toss is better than hammer arm, but again STAB zen headbutt/meteor mash ends up as 135

bulky wish set: ok you got me, but this isnt an invincible advantage over mega gross
 
Someone said that Kangaskhan should return to OU (?).
He was probably drunk.

And MegaGross overcentralize the meta. I need to put more than 2 Pokémon only to handle / check him, because if i don't, he'll crush my entire team.
That is why he is a top tiers. And if you think 2 minutes more, you will see that you need more than 1 check to dragoons, more than 1 check to fly spam, etc.

He isn't healthy for the metagame, and Heatran, Magnezone, Skarmory and many other Pokémon can handle fairies easily. That's an useless argument.
Most of Fairy mons have a ground- and/or fire-type move to kill these steel types (Diancie has Earth Power / HP Fire, Altaria has Earthquake / Fire Blast, Clefable as HP Ground (LO set) / Fthrower or Fire Blast). And most of them are eaily trappable / overloadable.
 
u know what this shit is getting too dumb..

(Now, if you'd like to argue that mmeta was actually broken, then I'll be happy to listen (indeed, I actually thought this was the case less then a week ago). However, I have not seen or heard any arguments on this thread to convince me that mmeta is broken (including my own).)

sorry if this is comes out in any way off calling u out, but man this is not true!
What exactly about that statement is untrue? That I am currently not convinced mmeta is broken? That I thought mmeta was in fact broken not very long ago? That I will happily listen to any arguments for him being broken?

There are other parts of my post that may be incorrect (for example, I mistakenly assumed that Henry was pro-ban, and for that I apologize), but the statement you singled out is an odd one indeed.

i think we need to clear this up, whether or not metagross is banworthy or not doesn't come down to how the suspect ladder plays or how broken other suspected mons have been before it. people have to realize that a suspect test is to gain more knowledge in how the mete "might" play out without the suspected pokemon being present in the meta, or vice versa if lets say a pokemon is dropped into the meta to being suspected, then the mon is being tested out in the meta. however there is a lot off arguments on metagross being broken or not, but we can not only look at the pokemon itself remember this is a metagame not 1v1. we can not ban only because we don't like the pokemon and because u "feel" it's to strong or too centralizing.

well theres a lot off good arguments on both sides off the spectrum, i have to say that seeing metagross as banworthy or not is really hard because i fell it lays a lot in the middle. you have to consider every small detail from how the meta will be with or without metagross to actually make a picture for yourself on how the meta will play out in the future, ofc no one can say AND the suspect ladder is not a good way to do this nor a good argument to state metagross beeing banworthy or not as it only shows a small picture on how the metagame will or can get.

i am not gonna drag up a ton off arguments here, but look through the thread, have wider look at the whole picture here before u make ur decision or make posts that will only consume little to no information or discussion OR drag the discission into a loop off irrelevant stuff like the suspect ladder.
I actually agree, how the suspect ladder plays out has very little to do with whether or not he is broken. However, one of the more popular pro-ban arguments is that Mega Metagross is not broken, but is "unhealthy for the metagame" via overcentralization. Because of this argument's popularity, I felt the need to address it in a post. Frankly, I think that we should stick with only banning what is broken, and since most people on both sides agree that he isn't, then we shouldn't ban him.

And trust me, I've read every single post on this thread.


You're talking about a ladder that has existed for all of 2 weeks(?) and you expect signifigant shifts to happen in that short time, you yourself just laddered with a bp team with minor changes to it's overall composition so it would function a little bit better than before. What happens on the ladder is that the higher-end ladder players will build a team that has a good enough match-up versus most other team archetypes and has a way to handle most of the mons in the higher usage bracket and rely on plays to win unfavorable match-ups.

It's a suspect ladder you can't expect a bunch of people who want to get reqs as fast as possible as easy as possible to use anything other than what helps accomplish that.

Also where did Henry say anything about his own views on the suspect in that post anyways? He was just pointing out incorrect information.

If megagross is in fact as overcentralizing as people say he is (I'm thinking aegislash levels of overcentralizing here), then yes, I would expect a significant shift in team comps to reflect the fact that you didn't need to dedicate half your team to check him. My BP team is kind of an odd example because it never really had a bad matchup against megagross (scolipede sets up in his face and he doesn't really do much to espeon). Given that most of the teams on the suspect ladder were good prior to mmeta leaving, that implies to me that they also had a pretty good matchup against mmeta (or teambuilders are lazy, that happens sometimes too).

I do apologize for making assumptions about Henry's views though. I try to be careful about that kind of stuff and I goofed.
 

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Since MegaGross is the only top tier Pokémon who forces ppl to make their team basically around checking him, that argument is also invalid.
In what way is this true? I've never gone with the approach of building my team just to check Metagross, for the simple reason that if I use that theory in building my teams, I will be strong vs Metagross but very weak vs other threats.

Now this is just my opinion, but this isn't a game where you can realistically pack hard counters for everything anymore, even on hard stall teams, but more one where when you build, you should be aiming to be able to check or match up as well as you can vs. all threats, with the consideration that you will be stronger versus certain threats or playstyles than against others. (Obviously it depends on what playstyle you're using as to how you actually deal with threats, ie. stall would aim to have good switchins to pressure the threat whereas HO would aim to have 1 or 2 ways to check it rather than defined switchins). From this, I then build my teams accordingly so they match up well vs the current popular threats and playstyles, which is a kind of vague concept seeing as OU is so diverse but for example, the teams I used on the suspect test generally matched up well vs most common Fairies and against balanced playstyles, as that's the style I felt I saw most on ladder. As a consideration, I also tried to build to match up well against countermeasures to these threats, such as Scizor being more popular for one example. The end result is that while my team matched up well vs these styles, it generally struggled with other styles like rain which I had not put as much thought into building against but I accepted that because I feel that is a natural limitation of the current OU tier, and I don't feel that any one ban, least not of Metagross who a lot of people on both sides of the argument agree isn't broken, will fix that.
 
Sorry, i said it wrongly. What i was trying to say is that Metagross forces ppl to put many Pokémon that they usually would not use in their team only to handle him, making their team weak to MANY other threats, only because they're afraid of being crushed by only one Pokémon. That's absurd. There's no other Pokémon that do this with the teambuilding process. Not even Sableye, Altaria, Lopunny, Landorus, Keldeo, nor any other top tier mon.
 
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