np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Run The Jewels

[bludz]

So some people arguing stuff like Gothorita and Gothita aren't broken. Hey, Gothitelle isn't broken either, it's uncompetitive. Now paired with something as team restricting that adds to the matchup problems of this gen (cough Mega Sableye), maybe it appears to be broken under certain circumstances.

I also don't understand those who are acting like Wobbuffet is some innocent bystander about to be a casualty of war. Okay, I think many of us agree that it's not on the same level as Gothitelle. However, it shares many of the same uncompetitive traits. First off it eliminates the option to switch out. When I say Gothitelle is uncompetitive, it is because I believe it limits your options to the point that it often doesn't matter what you do. And yeah, the first aspect of this is it's ability. The second part is Choice Scarf + Trick, which many people are using as an argument as to why it's Goth and not Wobbuffet. Being choice locked and unable to switch out makes you pretty helpless, right? Well hey, aren't we forgetting that Wobbuffet learns Encore? Sure, it won't lock you in long enough to PP stall you, but it creates a smaller scale version of the Trick scenario with Gothitelle. Okay, it's not removing any relevant wallbreaker that you want it to for stall teams, but it's sure a helluva lot better at removing offensive threats than Gothitelle is, and there isn't a whole lot you can do about it unless you want to provide the opponent with a setup opportunity (provided you aren't an all out attacker, in which case this isn't even an option). IMO, the reason this doesn't appear as alarming is because offense is so hard to deal with already that any extra help is often welcomed.

 

[FatherofGray]

This is not a snide remark but a genuine query:

Why is Goth such an issue now as compared to earlier metas like X/Y or even Gen V when it's frankly been capable of doing what it's doing now since B2/W2?

Please explain it like I'm 5. Thank you in advance.

 

[Ramses]

STag needs to go.

It's crazy how just seeing Goth on your opponent's team literally means you should click "X" if you don't run obscure items like Shed Shell Manaphy or Togekiss. That's centralizing and uncomepetitive in nature if you're forced to run something that only worsens your matchup against other playstyles. After reading some of the posts, I see a lot of people are under this strange illusion that Mega Sableye has Blissey Base HP along with it's Mega Evolved Defenses.

JUST HIT THE LITTLE BASTARD.

Literally any powerful enough hit can 2HKO it (hint, hint EP Lando-T, Outrage Chomp). And the pivotal nature of Mega Sableye makes it very susceptible to taking heavy damage from the powerhouses of the tier. Honestly people, Mega Bro and Mega Venu are easily bulkier than it and more so of a priority to make sure you can actually defeat. Teams get swept + walled by Mega Bro easily and Mega Venu can wall you to hell and back easy.

The fact people are echoing each other's posts about it's brokenness makes me want to drop kick them through my computer. It gets stomped by any Stallbreaker save common Taunt users such as Gengar (except MGyarados). Manaphy, Talonflame, Thundurus, Mega Gard, Hoopa-U, Serperior, hell even PH Breloom all can easily circumvent the supposed mayhem is causes. And while teambuilding a Stallbreaker should easily be one of the few mandatory components of the team, or in simpler terms a "WinCondition", oftenly a Special Breaker to evade burns.

The only reason it's "broken" know is only because of STag and without STag it's easily manageable.

This is not a snide remark but a genuine query:

Why is Goth such an issue now as compared to earlier metas like X/Y or even Gen V when it's frankly been capable of doing what it's doing now since B2/W2?

Please explain it like I'm 5. Thank you in advance.

In X & Y there wasn't a Mega Sab for it to support. So now it's much more of a problem.

 

[FatherofGray]

In X & Y there wasn't a Mega Sab for it to support. So now it's much more of a problem.

Well if that's indeed the case and Goth was just fine before Mega Sableye, then clearly Mega Sableye is the problem and not Goth or ST.

JUST HIT THE LITTLE BASTARD.

So in other words "If you're not Offense you're fucked"? Where's the respect for Pure Stall? It may not be everyone's favorite playstyle, but that's no ground on which to discriminate against it. I think this is exactly what the intro blurb for this thread was talking about: Mega Sableye can make you autolose at Team Preview because of how matchup based it makes the meta rn.

I frankly don't care about whether or not we drop Shadow Tag, but I think Mega Sableye should probably go.

 

[Shaka Brah]

"banning sab makes goth mostly unviable unless you're counterteaming someone due to the huge opportunity cost presented when using it in basically anything that isn't full blown sab stall, but banning goth doesn't change the fact that there'd still be a lot of teams that use sableye in combination with a specific, usually unrunnable, rock-weak mon or core that basically aim to win straight from team preview. wonder trio is the most obvious example of this type of team, but there are more. so, basically, from where i'm standing, banning sab takes care of everyone's worries about how "degenerate/unfair" goth is (not really my opinion but w/e) while also putting a stop to all of those matchup-oriented teams. IK it's your posting gimmick to basically defend stall super hard in every PR/OU thread but we aren't (or shouldn't be) balancing the three arbitrarily-defined "playstyles", we're (or should be) balancing the metagame in general.

e: and yeah, as you can glean from this post it's my opinion that a metagame where you can basically lose from team preview with not even a 5% chance to win because somebody decides to bring a team that happens to wall whatever you bring and you have no hope of getting hazards up is one not worth playing, which is mostly why i've stopped playing Pokemon"

^ just my favorite relevant post from the PR thread.

Ok first impression is that STag needs to go, not just because of stupid fat Goth Stall which I agree is dumb in conjuction with what Sableye brings to the table but also because of Goth's use for more balanced or offensive teams. It gets access to just the right moves it needs to trap and snipe some very prominent bulky Pokemon in the tier for some very powerful sweepers in the tier such as Altaria, Diancie, and Gyarados.
There's just very little skill involved in using STag Gothitelle and it's a lot more versatile than say, Magnezone, a Pokemon with a similar role but can only trap Steel types. Gothitelle has no such restriction and despite having mediocre stat distribution overall, it has just the right moves and stat total to do its job almost every game unless the opponent plays flawlessly, and the burden to do so will always be on the opposing player, and not the Goth player.
Lower tiers have long since banned STag and it's about time OU followed suit, the ability just has no place in competitive battling in my opinion.

Goth is close to unviable on Balance because they need all 6 slots to not get swept by infinite things (trust me, I've tried it) and it's a huge momentum sink with a large opportunity cost on any offensive team, I've only seen one consistently successful Gothitelle offensive team and none of the matchups it presents are by any means unwinnable for a large number of reasons. People using this fucking argument have either never tried to use Goth on their balance/offense teams or just have really poor metagame/teambuilding knowledge. There isn't any doubt that Goth/Sab combined is very restrictive, but Gothitelle is far from restrictive as soon as Sableye gets banned for a lot of reasons and it'll probably be stall's only way of being both reasonably viable and "balanced" (not creating a large number of unwinnable matchups).

Also, it doesn't matter what lower tiers have banned because they aren't relevant to OU at all. Technically speaking, most (or all?) of the stag bans in lower tiers are grandfathered in because they banned it extremely early in UU back when koko was leading the tier and the ability's "brokenness" in the tier is pretty much untested.

Mega-Sableye:

I followed with disappointment the thread on Policy Review because honestly the idea of a Sablenite test makes me laugh. I don't want to sound arrogant but the fact that people require this kind of tests goes to show how the new kids generation of pokemon is completely clueless on how to prepare and play against a defensive team, despite the last two generations gave us an incredible power creep and plenty of ways to break through cores.

Yes I am an intensive Sableye player and because of that I know that the statement for which Sableye is difficult to break without resorting to obscure unviable sets is blatantly false.

Among the viable things that threaten to lay Stealth Rock while 2hoking Sableye or putting status on it we have non-bulky Lando, Heatran (any set really), SD Chomper (a well played bulky Chomp can also be an hassle thanks to D-tail), Clefable, Mold Breaker Exca, I'm sure there are more.

What people fail to comprehend is that the blessing of Magic Bounce comes at the price of the loss of Prankster, which is reasonably exploitable. No more Prankster means that the Sableye player has to costantly keep his guy healthy, as sending in a weakened Sableye will probably result in a 2hko cause no more +1 Recover and WoW. This in turn can be exploited by the opponent by switching into a threat and gain momentum.
Many times I was put in a position where I had to sac a mon cause I couldn't risk to switch Sableye in straight away.
I would be all for a ban if Sableye could have both the abilities, that would be fcking ridicolous.

If anything, the reason for which some defensive Sableye team are very difficult to break without the use of gimmicks and shitty unviable sets is not Sableye itself but rather Gotithelle

So no ban (lol)

Mega Sab's loss of Prankster is really negligible because every team is on isn't built around it having Prankster, it's built around having the bulkiest magic bounce user being used in conjunction with a number of walls to make Sableye's job as easy as possible and win the hazard game. The one turn of Prankster Will-O is just a bonus.

"Among the viable things that threaten to lay Stealth Rock while 2hoking Sableye or putting status on it we have non-bulky Lando, Heatran (any set really), SD Chomper (a well played bulky Chomp can also be an hassle thanks to D-tail), Clefable, Mold Breaker Exca, I'm sure there are more."

So Clef and three things that flat-out lose to spd Skarm, which is standard on a lot of sab stall teams and is probably the best defogger to use with Sab, no questions asked?

 

[jpw234]

Can the council please explain why we're banning M-Eye on the suspect ladder and not Gothitelle? It's far more likely that Goth is what breaks M-Eye than the reverse, isn't it?
AM McMeghan

 

[Tressed]

yawn

I don't really think there's much of an argument to keep Shadow Tag around, so I'm not gonna go super in-depth with this one. Gothitelle being able to neuter almost anything without a Mega Stone is a huge issue, be it a wallbreaker, hazard setter, wall, cleric, or whatever else your team doesn't want to deal with at that point. It makes the match an uphill battle for the opponent because on while on paper it looks like a 5 on 5 match, in practice you're going to be down a critical member of your team in the matchup that they should be doing their best in. While I can understand how adapting based on the meta is expected, the idea that running Shed Shell wallbreaker + Pursuit trapper to deal with one Pokemon is normal or healthy... lol I don't know what to tell you

Sableye's also not great tbh. Getting up hazards is one of the main ways of breaking down a stall team, and a mon that shuts down most of the hazards users in the tier kinda ruins that plan until it gets dealt with. That much is easier said than done, of course. Sableye isn't going to be switching into most of the heavy wallbreakers, that's what it's teammates are there for. Sableye makes the most out of those defensive pivots, things like Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Lando-T, and the like, who tend to be pretty much fodder for whatever Sableye wants to do. In fact there's only two things (that aren't terrible or unreliable) that actually get up Rocks against your typical stall build, namely Clefable and Heatran. There are other, short term options, of course, but they tend to lose to Skarmory (great teammate for Sab) or can't keep up over the course of a match (Lum SD Chomp is only good to deal with Sableye once). That's the big issue that I have with Sableye, not that it denies hazards, but that it denies hazards for teams that already have methods of dealing with hazards and are made to outlast other teams. Unless you're packing one of the mons that can set up hazards on the Skarm + Sab combo, the stall team will be able to sit back and play passively without having to worry about hazard damage at all. I've been trying to avoid dropping common suspect buzzwords but there's no other way to put this. Sableye's presence on a team determines how most of the match will play out from team preview. fleggumfl covered this idea better than I can, so

Essentially, Sableye makes stallbreaking a much more matchup-based process than it ever was. What happened before was a player could pressure a stall team down by setting up hazards and double switches. If you predicted a switch in to something, you could double out into the appropriate threat, and get 12.5% on whatever just came in, which could be crucial for bringing it in range of being 2hko'd on the switch in. Now, predicting a switch becomes useless if there is no reward for doing so, which is what a hazardless game vs a stall team does. Without the opportunity for hazards, you are simply left with the 6 pokemon in your party, and what is worse, they all work as individuals, rather than as a team. What I mean by this is that one pokemon which can effectively remove checks and counters for another does not work well if the opposing player can just keep switching out into their counter for each with no repercussions.

TLDR; Gothitelle is cancer, Sablenite makes it difficult to actually punish stall for playing passively and forces specific hazard setters in order to actually get around it.

 

[Random Passerby]

Can the council please explain why we're banning M-Eye on the suspect ladder and not Gothitelle? It's far more likely that Goth is what breaks M-Eye than the reverse, isn't it?
AM McMeghan

The OP says this:
" We decided to not suspect Gothitelle because we think Shadow Tag is the main part of the problem. Gothorita has the same trapping abilities as its evolution, and thus could also become an issue should Gothitelle be banned. We also think Wobbuffet and Wynaut, despite being quite unseen and less effective than Gothitelle, are problematic, as they can punish the opponent by trapping a target and create a hole and punish the opponent with little to no counter play.

Due to the fact that the ability works extremely well with a Mega Sableye stall team, we have decided to only ban Sablenite from the Suspect Ladder."

Personally, I really really hate Shadow Tag because it takes away one of the most fundamental parts of competitive battling, which is switching. Plus, the fact that you only need to predict correctly once to eliminate something on the opponents team means the odds are skewed in your favour (as the best your opponent can do is to attack on something.). The fact that people need to resort to sub-par sets like Shed Shell + Pursuit means they are using 2 slots to beat such teams and make their team worse against everything else in general. Furthermore, the support by Mega Sableye (difficulty to lay hazards) also means you can't really punish the safe and obvious plays used by Stall.

 

[Anacleto]

Mega Sab's loss of Prankster is really negligible because every team is on isn't built around it having Prankster, it's built around having the bulkiest magic bounce user being used in conjunction with a number of walls to make Sableye's job as easy as possible and win the hazard game. The one turn of Prankster Will-O is just a bonus.

So what? What has that to do with what I said? Of course the team is built around to take advantage of the sweet Magic Bounce on a bulky mon to achieve better hazard control, the point I was making is that losing Prankster is a flaw that can be exploited with smart play, thus saying that M-Sab is too difficult to break is overly exagerated. As others have pointed out Sab's bulk is great but not godly either.

"Among the viable things that threaten to lay Stealth Rock while 2hoking Sableye or putting status on it we have non-bulky Lando, Heatran (any set really), SD Chomper (a well played bulky Chomp can also be an hassle thanks to D-tail), Clefable, Mold Breaker Exca, I'm sure there are more."

So Clef and three things that flat-out lose to spd Skarm, which is standard on a lot of sab stall teams and is probably the best defogger to use with Sab, no questions asked?

Again, so what? Teambuilding exists for a reason and it's to cover weaknesses. Defog is a joke move cause it gets rid of their hazards as well, basically achieving nothing for them especially if you are on the offensive. If they carry a rapid spinner you can bring a ghost of your own.

I have the impression some people have this idea on their mind of Sableye being unbeatable because of that lame stall team with Gotithelle.
Dudes, that team was too difficult to break and extremely matchup reliant because of Goti, not Sab. Without her there are so many threats that shit on the team and no Sableye nor Defog Skarm can do shit about it.

 

[Martin]

About time lol.

I predict the ladder to be riddled with spikes stacking teams and FingersCrossed stall. Anyway...

Anyway, so that this post isn't wasted...

Shadow Tag as a whole is fine. Wobbuffet and Wynaut do not cause problems. Before I get a chorus of people saying that I am only saying that because my dick is hard for Wobb (which, if I'm honest, it is), the reason I am saying this is because I have used Wobb extensively. I understand what it can and can't do better than I am sure most of the people who post in the OU sub-forum do. Wobbuffet has lots of counterplay options, with just flat out losing to anything with Taunt, Toxic and Will-O-Wisp, facing problems v.s. mixed attackers (especially Diancie) and often needing to be in V.S. U-turn and Volt Switch users which can not only escape, but can also form cores with Ghost- or Dark-types, respectively, to get free damage onto Wobbuffet which it can do nothing about. Sure, it can maybe lure a Volt Switch into a Ground-type or a U-turn into a Helmet, but it can't consistently stop users of these moves. Worst of all, it forces 50:50s with itself. The drawback to only having CounterCoat to attack is that you are forced to take damage and predict if your opponent will use a physical or special move if you are within 2HKO range. This means that it needs a lot of support (things to keep it healthy, answers to Taunt, VoltTurn, darks (even for Colbur variants) ghosts, Diancie etcetera).

The real problem that this has been brought up for is Gothitelle, and I feel that it and Gothorita are the only problematic users of the ability. Once its trapped what it wants to, its set to cripple it and potentially just be obnoxious. It can directly attack, it can recover health, it can permanently lock its target, it can cripple the dedicated stallbreaker on the opposing team with its Choice Scarf... there is no counterplay. You've seen the Shed Shell+Scarftar offense squads which have been running around just to beat this thing; when you can centralise a metagame to that level, there is a serious problem. Its impact on multiple playstyles is unrivaled, and this is where the problem comes from. Neither stallbreakers nor stallers are safe from it, and it just uses and abuses such a large range of mons that it is unhealthy. You may have noticed that I said "and Gothorita" in my first sentence. This is because Gothorita is capable of filling precisely the same role as Gothitelle only very slightly worse, and as a result it should be banned alongside Gothitelle.

As for Sablenite, the matchup issues that it causes are dumb as hell to try and deal with. IMO its issue does not come from its matchup v.s. hazards (in fact, it is (rather ironically) one of the very few things that is preventing the metagame from staling due to spikes being too difficult to beat at this point), but rather it comes from its ability to reflect Taunt, Toxic and all the other traditional stops to stall. This split of necessity as a spikes check and unhealthiness on stall is why I am much more split on my opinion of it. As I go for reqs, I am going to be paying close attention to whether spikes stacking just becomes boring to play against or not, and I am most likely going to base my call on it around that. The question this suspect will answer is this: is it a necessary evil like GSC Snorlax is? Is it necessary to keep the metagame fun? This is a question which I still need to answer myself, and one which I think should be a pivotal part of the discussion.

Mega Sableye in conjunction with Gothitelle has caused huge problems for the OU metagame due to the two in combination being able to tear apart a large number of teams, and the only counterplay is Shed Shell Mana/Toge/whatever. When you centralise a metagame to that extent, problems are caused. However, I don't really think that their combination is the only thing at work here. You see, the problem is that neither is dependent on the other to be problematic. Gothitelle and Sableye both function well without each other to back them up. This is why I don't feel that delving too deep into the Sab+Goth matchup is a good idea here, but rather thinking about Sab+Goth and Sab or Goth is just as necessary.

Now for those who were too lazy to read what I typed above, here is a summary:

• Shadow Tag: Do not ban (the ability as a whole is not problematic)
  
• Wobbuffet and Wynaut: Do not ban (these Pokemon are not problematic and have counterplay beyond gimmicks)
  
• Gothitelle and Gothorita: Do ban (these Pokemon are problematic and do not have counterplay beyond gimmicks)
  
• Sablenite: Undecided (whether it is a necessary evil is still to be seen)

 

[LukeWithJazz]

This suspect was much needed and i do appreciate this. M-Sab+Goth is really hard to deal with and the only answer to that is M-Gardevoir(Idk whether am i right or not) but you just add heatran to this core and then GG.You bring out a fairy type ( Clefable ) and then its M-sab vs Clef . You even know it but still you bring Goth and if your opponent is a n00b then BOOM Goth wins.M-Sab is still checked by the fairies and can be played around but Goth just gives it invincibility. Also S-Tag shouldnt be ignored that how wbba does give you the chance to set up and then take out the game.So I do think that Goth needs to get banned and not M-Sab bcoz people have dealt with it before

Thanks for reading and every Comment is appreciable :) and Stag is always noncompetitive for a valid reason ;)

Have A Nice Day,
MightySwagger013

 

[yuruuu]

You need a minimum of 80 GXE? That's ridiculously harsh sigh. It was like 85 game limit, now decreased to 75...this is no longer accessible to the average player.

Shadow Tag is just cancerous and should be banned. I don't think anyone thinks that it is uncompetitive ONLY in conjunction with Mega Sableye, and Mega Sableye isn't even the best teammate for it (Yes, I know the stall team, but come on.) It's the offensive teammates that really benefit from this. It puts a lot of pressure on the opponent when playing, and sets up a ton of 50-50s every turn where the Shadow Tag player is at an advantage, as one mispredict and the opponent loses his Mega Charizard-X check or something important.

Mega Sableye isn't really that bad in comparison. Lots of fire type checks, Fairy checks, and it's pretty easy to abuse this thing. It limits the number of viable Stealth Rock users, but it is something that can be played around, unlike Shadow Tag.

 

[Albacore]

Not going to talk about Shadow Tag too much since I don't have much too add, I agree with the general consensus that Shadow Tag is an inherently dumb ability, as if trapping in general wasn't already already bad enough to deal with. Facing something that can trap such a wide range of threats as our Shadow Tag users is completely asinine since you literally have to perform guess work throughout the battle unless you want to run some Shed Shell+TTar bs. Switching is such a fundamental aspect of Pokemon that I can't possibly see something which removes that mechanic and completely subverts the notion of checks and counters on such a large scale to be healthy at all.


Still undecided on Sableye, I will however adress a pretty bad argument I've seen a few times on this thread, which is "why not just kill sableye it has keldeo-level bulk and no lefties recovery lol". It is true that Sableye isn't unkillable or anything, however that's completely missing the point. Sableye is being suspected for its support capabilities, not its defensive capabilities. Saying you can kill Sableye is a lot like saying you can kill Deo-D, of course you can, what matters is if the support it provides is. Speaking of which, Sableye pretty much does for stall what Deo-D did for offense : give the user much greater control over the hazards game, putting the opponent at a natural disadvantage in that field. That why people find it uncompetetive, it generally neccesitates way more skill to play around than to use.

And yeah, you can point to SR setters that can 2HKO it or wear it down, but the thing is, you can't attack and set up rocks at once. You may force out Sableye, but you're still not guaranteed to get rocks up, unless you predict perfectly. A Sableye at 30% can still bounce rocks back, so it still exerts hazard control even when it's very weak. Getting rocks up vs a team with a healthy Sableye with, say, an Earth Plate Garchomp is akin to beating a Bisharp with an SD Excadrill And even if you do manage to get those rocks up by winning the necessary predictions, the opponent will still have a spinner or defogger so it's not like you've permanently gotten rocks up. So you have to go through great lengths to both get and keep rocks up, whereas if you're not using sableye, the opponent can literally just do it anytime really. The only thing that's really guaranteed to get up rocks on Sableye consistently and without repercussions is Clefable, and even than it may end up with rocks on its own side.

That being said, I am still really hesistant to support a Sableye ban. The dominance of entry hazards is one of the mose annoying things to deal with in ORAS, so anything which outs a lid on that can't be all that bad. There's kind of a rock-paper-scissors dynamic where hazard teams beat non hazard teams, non hazard teams beat Sableye teams, and Sableye teams beat hazard teams; so banning Sableye may well give us an even more centralised metagame than what we currently have (which is admittedly pretty centralised, at leats more than it was a few months ago). And since Sableye only really thrives in a hazard-centered metagame, so part of me feels that it's only "broken" or "uncompetetive" in releation to the curent state of the metagame as opposed to in OU in general, it may well pull a Metagross and just stop being a problem in a few months. Yeah, people have had time to adapt to it, but I've only heard people bitching about Sableye within the last month or so, so maybe the metagame is just going through a phaze where Sableye is really hard to deal with, much like it did a few months ago with Altaria and Manaphy.

 

[sdrumapapere]

and Stag is always noncompetitive for a valid reason ;)

Shadow Tag is uncompetitive for YOU. Because in the real world it isn't.
Gothithelle isn't bulky like people would believe. There is a motivation if she's PU. And she's PU in Smogon tiers. Trick scarf a Sylveon if you want, Hyper Voice (with little investment in SpA) is 2HKO, then I dare you to switch in your Sableye.
Wobbuffet is predictable like my grandma. Status move, he Encores, stay in until he switches. Switch out, did the opponent switched in sableye? Sylveon obliterates him even after one CM. So Mega Gard. So Clefable. And an other thousand fairies. Mega Char X can 2HKO it (possible OHKO in sun).
And the list could go on.

Of course in reality is useless even to discuss about that.
Smogon is a community where entry hazards are life, so MSableye is a nuisance. (Defog Defog Defog Defog...Scizor, Rapid Spin Rapid Spin Rapid Spin Excadrill, twice the usage of Sableye).
Smogon is a community of stally strategies. And Mega-Sableye is an insta-win against stall teams.
Obviously Mega Sableye will be banned with like 80% votes or similar. We are playing on your home ground.

But seriously talking, a 6% usage mon that deals no problems to normal and balanced teams should be banned? Don't make me laugh please.

So in other words "If you're not Offense you're fucked"? Where's the respect for Pure Stall? It may not be everyone's favorite playstyle, but that's no ground on which to discriminate against it. I think this is exactly what the intro blurb for this thread was talking about: Mega Sableye can make you autolose at Team Preview because of how matchup based it makes the meta rn.

That's really funny. You like stall? You make a stall team, then you lose. Because your team ISN'T balanced and suitable for the metagame.
Pure Hyper offense and Pure Hyper stall are BOTH wrong.
If you build a well done team, Sableye, when you encounter him (1 out of 15 battles), is not a problem for you.
You don't like to have a balanced team? Nobody forces you to. Do what you want, and enjoy low ladder.

(I do not use Sableye in my OU teams, anyway)

Obviously I'm against all proposed bans.
(And also some of the olders, but it isn't the place or time to discuss that, too late, sigh, rip balanced games T_T)

 

[komet3]

Ok, total noob question then. Why wasn't this problem presented in the xy meta game when mega gengar was being ban for the same reason? Why was it not a problem then but now it is? Wouldn't it has to be presented to all shadow tag users back then? I don't remember the suspect test that well but I am pretty sure it was because of it's ability, hell even ubers had a suspect test of the same thing. Even then only mega gengar was banned? I would assume that Goth was present at this time. Also even if we ban mega Sabeye wouldn't there be a mass complaint that mega medicham (to a lesser extent mega gallade) is taking the throne in the ou meta game with literally zeros switch in again and even you say there are checks like slowbro there are the rare breed of medichams that runs thunder punch. Sure you can argue the fact that you can still use normal sabeye however without the added bulk and the magic bounce ability it would be more of a burden than a aid on your team. It honestly doesn't matter to me whether or not these two get banned it is just that we as a community would have to adapt like we always do. However, I just want to know so I won't be confused. Seeing the track record of most people in this thread I would assume that they remember the suspect test too. This is an honest post just a guy who wants to know.

 

[AM]

Ok, total noob question then. Why wasn't this problem presented in the xy meta game when mega gengar was being ban for the same reason? Why was it not a problem then but now it is? Wouldn't it has to be presented to all shadow tag users back then? I don't remember the suspect test that well but I am pretty sure it was because of it's ability, hell even ubers had a suspect test of the same thing. Even then only mega gengar was banned? I would assume that Goth was present at this time. Also even if we ban mega Sabeye wouldn't there be a mass complaint that mega medicham (to a lesser extent mega gallade) is taking the throne in the ou meta game with literally zeros switch in again and even you say there are checks like slowbro there are the rare breed of medichams that runs thunder punch. Sure you can argue the fact that you can still use normal sabeye however without the added bulk and the magic bounce ability it would be more of a burden than a aid on your team. It honestly doesn't matter to me whether or not these two get banned it is just that we as a community would have to adapt like we always do. However, I just want to know so I won't be confused. Seeing the track record of most people in this thread I would assume that they remember the suspect test too. This is an honest post just a guy who wants to know.

because it was never addressed until oras plain and simple.

M-cham being king and complaints about that time is a gross overexaggeration that wasn't even a thing when aegislash was banned barring a few vocal minority.

This question was ok but for everyone reading this please do not make assumptions of "why was this addressed now and not before." It is being addressed now, just like landorus, just like greninja, and other suspects. Please stay on topic thanks.

 

[Kav]

People did dislike it back in xy. It was just less effective so people kinda just put up with it.

if it wasnt for mega sableye then it would probably still be the case. Regardless stag is still an extremely annoying and easy to use ability; and even if its not OP, the metagame can still be made more fun by banning it.

 

[EraiMHFU]

(I do not use Sableye in my OU teams, anyway)

You destroyed your own argument by saying this, if you never used Sab, why bother in posting? theorymon is never taken seriously. (Unless you participate on Recreant's theorymon thread).

Anyways, everyone agree that shadow tag is uncompetitive because there's no reliable counter play outside of Shed Shell Stallbreaker + Scarf/ Mega Tyranitar, and most of stall breakers such as Manaphy need their items to work, Manaphy can't setup safely without Wacan Berry nor heal itself with Lefties, Gliscor isn't immune to status without Toxic Orb( and Goth Can trick the toxic orb to other mon later) There's zero skill involved in shadow tag, just a ridiculous ability that ignores one of the pillars of battling: Switches.

 

[BKC]

You need a minimum of 80 GXE? That's ridiculously harsh sigh. It was like 85 game limit, now decreased to 75...this is no longer accessible to the average player.

thank god, the average player tends to have really stupid opinions on what's good for the metagame. "don't ban/unban aegislash" - a bunch of geniuses

 

[Anacleto]

The bulk argument wasn't bad. It shows that you can't just mindlessly switch Sab into all the SR setter and expect him to keep rocks away from the field anytime. Hell, you can't even switch him into Fable and Mold Exca to begin with. So I wouldn't say it necessitates more skill to play around it than to use it.

Ok, you can switch him into whatever spikes setter no problem, but is that an evil? I mean look at BW. One of the main reasons it's a shitfest is that spikes are too stupid strong. Too easy to lay down and extremely difficult to get rid of. Then Defog happened. I personally dislike the move cause the downsides are too uncomfortable but it helped checking spikes stacking. Now we have another option into M-Sab to realiably check spikes and sometimes Rocks and we call it broken? lol.

 

[EraiMHFU]

The argument is pointless if its theorymon, the only relevant fairy that sets rocks is Clefable, who is walled to the hell by SpDef Skarmory, a common Sab Teammate.

This is not enough to ban Sab IMO, Its so passive that it almost always ends as a setup bait like I stated yesterday, M-Gyarados, Manaphy, Serperior, M-Gardevoir, BD Azumarrill, even Zard X if Sab doesn't pack Foul Play.

What is troublesome is Goth, who beats almost every non mega stall breaker just by PP Stalling it, and the others get severely crippled, Serperior can't afford lock itself into leaf storm because of unperfect accuracy and few PP.

I feel that Goth should be banned first, and then see how the Metagame develops without the Duo, every stall team that I faced ran Goth + Sab.

 

[Kav]

Of course you cant switch him into everything. But between skarmorys defog and chansey eating literally any special attack you can be forced to play without hazards entirely. That itself isnt bad, but sableyes pseudo-immunity to taunt and status pretty much hard counters any stallbreakers that cant 2hko it.

 

[miltankmilk]

Ban Mega-Sableye
In my opinion, the reason that gothitelle becomes the problem that it is comes from the pokemon behind it. On a stall team, mega-sableye really limits your ability to set hazards as well as cripples a lot of offensive threats with will-o-miss. And as has been discussed, most of the threats to sable can be trapped and killed by Goth. Without the stall backbone, however, I don't see gothitelle as being as useful. Yes it can trap things for other teams like garchomp and lando, but breaking non-stall gothitelle teams is nowhere near as stupidly difficult. If Sablenite gets banned, I think gothitelle just won't be as much of a nuisance.

 

[P3DS]

Thought this was coming. TBH, I actually made a sableye stall team about a month ago, and didn't see any goth stuff, and just added it on for the lols... didn't really see break stuff, but that might just be cause I was new to the archetype

Don't Ban Sableye

Mega sableye isn't a problem. The biggest argument about it is the Hazards control, but there are games where hazards are barely used. Personally, I rarely set up hazards; they are nice, but not a need. And strong hazard control is good, but on the flipside, it takes your mega slot from other pokemon which can do other stuff. Also, strong special moves will hurt, its just a fact of removing the physical wall of the team. Alo, there are strong pokemon out there that destroy sableye. Fairies cause sableye a pain, and a strong return from mega alt is strong. Mega charizard-x is powerful against it, so is the Y form. Special wall/stall breaker is a good cure for the goth+sableye+blob.

Ban STag (Sadly)
If there was a ban goth choice, that would be how I'd choose.

Goth: TRick scarf is good, but any team with a decent volt turn core beats it. Megas can beat it too, and so does ghost types, like gengar and other sableye. Some steel types already run shed shell just for magnezone. Goth as an ally to fighting and poison weak pokemon are good, especially things like bisharp and lopunny, as it traps against fighting types and beats them. BAN

Gothorita, people say that if goth was only banned, gothorita would take on the role, but it is arguably worse. Poor bulk in comarison, poor speed. Stronger in lower tiers, but not in the high OU

Wob: Strong, and powerful, but can't do much. Needs to take a hit first, and not as versatile. Has to usually rely on

No others are available... Lets see how things turn out with duggy taking the spot of goth in teams. Basically, removing goth would be the best cause of options, and I highly oppose anyone who thinks STag is an easy mode: it isn't I've seen people use it, and then balls it up cause they played it out wrong. Its good with the high players.

If Sablenite gets banned, I think gothitelle just won't be as much of a nuisance.

Try facing Chansey/goth/zard. It hurts, as goth traps stuff. Goth trap can eliminate a specific threat quickly. Sabe isn't broken at all. It is strong, but it has a lot that can take it out.

 

[Get this Money]

ok so I decided to make a post on here for once. I am not the most eloquent person and please excuse any grammar or spelling mistakes on my side.
With that said I'll start with my opinion on sableye:
I think sableyes ability to keep spikes and most likely stealth rock off the field is still really unhealthy because it makes teammatchup against stall teams that are abusing m sableye way more important than the playing that happens during the game. It takes away the possibility to beat stall by using hazards and smart switches to weaken checks for certain mons and win by doing so, since m sableye allows the stall player to play 100% safe in case he doesnt run into one of the few threats that are able to beat his specific stall build. And this is not my opinion because "hehe fuck stall xd", I think sableye is broken because it puts the player who uses it in a position where he won the hazard game from t1 in a lot of games and makes it very hard to break defensive cores without having the one mon that just straight up destroys it.
therefore sab is broken and deserves to be banned

my thoughts on gothitelle are pretty much the same everyone else has from what I've seen:
Being able to trap every mon except for ghosts and those who hold a shed shell, which is almost crippling the mon considering how big the lack of lefties recovery/LO damage output is, is really stupid especially considering that the only counterplay to being trapped by gothi is double switching into something that can take it on/isnt as important as the mon thats threatened to get trapped, this involves a huge risk, as the opponent might stay in and predict your double (prediction always goes 2 ways) or your opponent might go out into something that isnt gothitelle and completely kill your momentum.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ Person above my post

"Don't Ban Sableye
Mega sableye isn't a problem. The biggest argument about it is the Hazards control, but there are games where hazards are barely used. Personally, I rarely set up hazards; they are nice, but not a need. And strong hazard control is good, but on the flipside, it takes your mega slot from other pokemon which can do other stuff. Also, strong special moves will hurt, its just a fact of removing the physical wall of the team. Alo, there are strong pokemon out there that destroy sableye. Fairies cause sableye a pain, and a strong return from mega alt is strong. Mega charizard-x is powerful against it, so is the Y form. Special wall/stall breaker is a good cure for the goth+sableye+blob."
So you think sableye isnt broken because you rarely use hazards, "altaria ohkoes xd" and you can use other pokemon as your mega? Did you ever consider that there are other playstyles than hyper offense, that use hazards and pressure from 1-2 wallbreakers to deal with more defensive teams instead of just having 5 mons that can sd and just kill stuff?