making ORAS great? That's what we said when we had a Lando-I suspect. ORAS is dogshit, and it will never be good nor fun again.As for stag/msab: thank satan almighty we are about to get rid of 2 of the last 3 things preventing oras from being really great, #3 being scald of course!
edit: oh and torn-t. fuck that thing.
Aldaron said:II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
The problem is that it can't reliably prevent hazards from going up.There's really a common misconception here that "if sableye can be checked easily with common, viable pokemon then it's clearly not broken." No. It doesn't matter if you can fit a Clefable or a Gardevoir or a Heatran on your team. Playing against Sableye teams as a whole, and not as 6 individual pokemon acting in a vacuum, is the unhealthy part. People should really be focusing on the types of builds Sableye forces, and how it could arguably be overpowering in its ability to control hazards. It can be said that Sableye is in fact "broken" because of its ability to prevent hazards so easily, and resist most viable forms of wallbreaking, such as taunt and hazards.
Not doing that. One, the other, none, or both. Those will be the options.Let's start by saying...KEEP BOTH BUT BAN THEM FROM BEING ON THE SAME TEAM
To be honest, I'm not the type of person that enjoys playing full stall nor do I enjoying playing against it, but I think it's safe to say it has it's ups and downs. I understand when people say stall its a mindless playstyle when they face it, but it does take some skill to an extent. You have a lot of Stallbreakers that stall surprisingly have no switchins too, which suprises me. A few being Hoopa-Unbound, CM Mega-Gardevoir and Mega-Garchomp which you don't see too often. On to Gothitelle. Goth adds support in which it can either take down passive mons or cripple some wallbreakers and kill itself in the process. Now stall isn't as good as it used to be. I'd say stall was semi-decent during mid-late XY. Reason being is There are too many stallbreakers roaming around in the current metagame. Again, scarf gothitelle is a useful niche but not a broken one, there's a reason it's used on ONE archetype, being stall. I do agree I hate goth stall with a passion but let's be honest, if your team auto loses to gothitelle alone, there's a problem. The problem persists in your Teambuilding. Don't be that person that completely avoids preparing for stall because it's not as common as any other playstyle and cry because you can't beat it.
What you don't understand is that stall is also restricted on its own teambuilding.
Sure, stall can work just fine without Sableye, but the hazard control that he provides is irreplaceable. Hazard stacking vs stall is rather easy since most mons are passive. If you hazard stack vs stall, the stall user is forced to defog, seeing as how not all stall teams can fit starmie or Excadrill on them. That means that bisharp hazard stacking is a threat and that you have to have something for that.
Then you have to have something for hoopa, talonflame, most Manaphy forms, keldeo, breloom, heracross, etc.
You shouldn't just look at teambuilding in an offensive vs stall view, but in a stall vs every other play style as well. The one thing a lot of people forget is STALL IS A LEGIT PLAYSTYLE.
"Get rid of Lando-I it literally is unbeatable with RP"
then prepare for it, bring priority water or ice. After we got rid of Lando what happened??? Stall rose in popularity and it was the only thing people were using. The real truth of the matter is keeping the metagame balanced NOT healthy. If we got rid of Sab, then offense can just hazard stack and spam and be overpowered for stall and balance. I don't want to hear all that "stall is cancer, nobody has time for long matches" then why are you even playing mons if you don't have time? MSab keeps the metagame in check disallowing stuff to just come in and shit on one playstyle.
My friend MattyBrollic said this:
"Stall will still be viable even without goth and sab, but the fact that you can more safely stack hazards and run stall breakers with an item that isn't shed shell and not be forced to run a pursuit trapper on top of that, is healthy for the meta."
I disagree with this to an extent. I for one don't like playing full stall nor do I like playing against it but if we got rid of two Pokemon in attempt to eliminate a whole playstyle just because "we don't like playing against it, we don't have time for long matches" then why are you on Pokemon showdown if you "don't have time" (general statement, not directed towards you Matt) it makes no sense to demoralize a whole playstyle just so we (offensive users) have it easier. You shouldn't be playing mons to begin with if you don't have time. Also, PREPARE FOR STALL, I don't know how many times I have to say this.
Bring a pursuit user.
I don't want to hear:
"being forced to run a pursuit trapper or a shed shell toge is HEAVILY limiting to team building"
Not really. With this logic, that's like saying I shouldn't be forced to bring a check to any wallbreaker or threat or playstyle for that instance, I should have freedom in what I want to use. It's ignorant to only look at mons in a offense vs offense point of view and completely ignore stall like it doesn't exist. You're not forced to run either if you can make a semi decent team that has wallbreakers and shit like hoopa diggers garde etc etc you should have no problem beating Sab stall. Only thing people cry about is Sab because offense can't hazard stack and spam shit and kill, so they complain. Key to being a good teambuilder is preparing for all playstyles not just offense and balance. stall is a legitimate playstyle.
Matt: "Dude... there are plenty of mons and teams that destroy goth stall, but they make you more susceptible to fast paced offense"
Me: Run wallbreakers and other stuff that wear down stall I have a few teams that are anti stall that don't have too bad of a matchup against offense
Matt: Yea but "not too bad of a match up" is not as good as a good match up
Me: No team is perfect don't forget, so with that logic you can't complain about goth stall, amirite?
One key factor most people forget about playing offense vs stall is that the offensive users seems to play lazy. If you have a way of beating stall and wearing it down, make doubles, if you have a pursuit user, make a double and trap and kill goth. You guys don't mind making doubles and triples vs offense and balance, so why play lazy vs stall?
That's all I have for now, thanks for reading, hope you enjoy!!
Specifically stated to use the OU tiering policy framework as it helps objectify some of these buzzwords so that they're not thrown around left and right.I would have liked to have seen Shadow Tag suspected (and banned) separately first because if there's one thing in this game that the buzzword "uncompetitive" fits, it would have to be Shadow Tag. Removing arguably the most important game mechanic and option a player has at their disposal in a near universal and one-sided manner has all sorts of bad implications for the game. The Goth family has proven to be cancerous for well known reasons both on and against stall teams and warps the metagame. Wobb isn't particularly problematic at this point, but the ability itself is undeniably dubious to the point where it's safe to say that the meta is always going to be better off without it due to the inherent issues it introduces. Without Shadow Tag around, I reckon we'd have a better ground for determining whether Sablenite is worthy of a suspect and ban, because they are intermingled quite strongly at the moment.
Therefore I'd encourage voting to Ban Shadow Tag and Keep Sablenite. Cross the bridges one at a time. Shadow Tag is inherently cancerous and has to go if the health of the game is considered a priority. After that if we feel Sablenite is still problematic, sure, put it up for a suspect again.
I thought this was p.interesting. And, broadly, I agree - yeah, MSableye definitely does centralize the hazard game, can't disagree there. And the rapid spin immunity on top of everything else is just salt in the wound. But hazards have always been an inherently centralizing force anyway, and even though in practice games can come down to who can control hazards best, it's not like that's something we're entitled to as players. Anyway, hazard stacking teams can and have been doing increasingly well and even t-spikes gained some traction for a while before the meta started trending against them, all after MSab's release. While I'd personally fight against any SR suspect, when it comes to limiting factors on what can and can't set up hazards, I really can't complain. Until moves like Defog and RS become seriously ubiquitous on a whole bunch of other 'mons, how we handle hazards in any given meta is more or less an outcome of whatever decisions Game Freak wants to arbitrarily make during design time and I'm totally cool with MSableye limiting reliable SR setters to Clef and Heatran. *shrug* It's something we can and do adapt to, and not without success.Last, I don't think hazards should get a free pass as a necessary condition for winning.
Just butting in here with a very broad and general addendum. Ideally, since bans are catered towards high-level players, we're talking (or at least should be talking) about scenarios where both players can predict with approximately equal success. With both Goth and MSab there is a difference though, coming back to the risk/reward thing, and I apologise if it's a bit cliched: You have to be lucky every time, the Sab/Goth player only has to be lucky once.Finally many of the arguments put forward seem to suggest that only the player with sableye is capable of making predictions.
ORAS is a fantastic tier other than what bkc already pointed out, I'm tired of people hating on it because it's the "in" thing to do.making ORAS great? That's what we said when we had a Lando-I suspect. ORAS is dogshit, and it will never be good nor fun again.
The thing about rocks clefable and lum sd chomp as being mons that can set up rocks vs msab is that they are sets specifically made as a result of mega sab stopping common stealth rock setters. Literally the only set out of those three that was remotely common on teams prior to mega sab exploding in popularity (specifically in the higher portions of the ladder) was rocks heatran, which gets fucked up by cm sets anyways, whereas the other two rock setters were pretty much unheard of before the rise of msab, so the centralization that it causes forces previously uncommon to sets just so that teams have a mon that can set rocks vs sableye. About your point about double switching, prediction goes both ways, so they can predict the incoming diancie and pivot out to their iron head spdef skarm or chansey in order to gain momentum, just saying.The problem is that it can't reliably prevent hazards from going up.
Heatran, Clefable, and Garchomp are good examples of hazard setters who abuse Sableye. With Lum Berry or Swords Dance, Garchomp can predict the Sableye switch in and then proceed to nuke it. Heatran loves burning Sableye on the switch in and isn't that afraid of coming into play against it, bar Knock off. Other hazard users like Skarmory, Ferrothorn or Chansey can be used as bait to bring Sableye into play and gain free momentum by double-switching to Diancie, Gardevoir, Azumarill, Altaria, Clefable, etc. OU is not at a loss for good Fairy Type attackers, and these fairies are often hard to wall effectively once in play
Having a slower game isn't exactly why we want to ban mega sab/stag, it's because they are inherently uncompetitive when used in tandem with one another. There is nothing competitive of having 20 turns literally spent on pp stalling something when the user opposing gothtitelle has no choice in the matter, and the fact that the ability shadow tag takes away one of the core aspects of competitive battling in switching with little to no skill required to take out said mon is literally uncompetitive by the very definition that we have laid out in the framework posted by Aldaron: II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.I get that some people might want to be able to spam battles and climb the ladder as fast as possible, and just sigh when they see stall teams. I panic too when I see sableye and both blobs. But I don't really complain about it, it's a true test to see how well my supposedly good team *actually* is. It's also supremely satisfying to 2hko something that naively switched in. If you want a faster game then just go play PU or another tier with terrible hazard control.