What does the scouter say about his power level?
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Run The Jewels
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So is the proposal to ban either or both? it's illegal to run mega sableye + gothitelle? or it's illegal to run sableye or it's illegal to run gothitelle but it's ok to use either independently?
EDIT:
Sableye should remain OU
Sableye can be a pain but without Goth it's not that threatening. It is great on lots of teams but it's not that effectivve against really common team archetypes like Ttar/Exca/Zard, anything with Diancie or Heatran and offensive teams. I like M-Sableye because it checks hazard stacking so well and can mitigate how mediocre Excadrill, Starmie and Latias are at preventing hazards from running the match.
Overall, M-Sableye finds itself in an awkward pinch. With no passive recovery, no real offensive capabilities and its inability to manage top special attackers (Manec, Zard, Keldeo, Heatran, Clefable, Altaria, Diancie etc.) it often finds few opportunities to switch in safely against hyper offense. Despite how deadly Will-o-Wisp can be, it fails to switch in against top physical threats with impunity, even with maximum defense.
All of that said, it's by no means a bad pokemon and rightly deserves its S-rank. It effectively counters good defensive mons like Ferrothorn, Chansey and Rotom-Wash and can support its team amazingly by Magic Bouncing (or just the threat of Bouncing) status and hazards back at the opponent.
Gothitelle should be banned:
There's no doubt in anyone's mind that trapping is uncompetitive. However, Gothitelle's effectiveness at trapping is unmatched, particularly because of how well it uses Heatran, Clefable, Chansey, non-WW Skarmory, Ferrothorn and a host of other walls as an opportunity to Trick, Rest off the damage and set up CM's. When combined with the right teammates, it can almost always find a way to get into play, trick a scarf onto something and proceed to set up Calm Minds or just let Struggle take its toll. While this isn't extremely effective against offensive teams, it does find a lot of opportunities to get the crucial easy kill that allows its teammates to sweep.
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I'm not totally sure of this, but I feel like Gothitelle is the root of the problem, simply because it doesn't have checks and counters by definition. Sableye is annoying, for sure, but like I said above, it has issues with other super-viable Pokemon that prevent it from being the catch-all pokemon that Gothitelle is.
EDIT:
Sableye should remain OU
Sableye can be a pain but without Goth it's not that threatening. It is great on lots of teams but it's not that effectivve against really common team archetypes like Ttar/Exca/Zard, anything with Diancie or Heatran and offensive teams. I like M-Sableye because it checks hazard stacking so well and can mitigate how mediocre Excadrill, Starmie and Latias are at preventing hazards from running the match.
Overall, M-Sableye finds itself in an awkward pinch. With no passive recovery, no real offensive capabilities and its inability to manage top special attackers (Manec, Zard, Keldeo, Heatran, Clefable, Altaria, Diancie etc.) it often finds few opportunities to switch in safely against hyper offense. Despite how deadly Will-o-Wisp can be, it fails to switch in against top physical threats with impunity, even with maximum defense.
All of that said, it's by no means a bad pokemon and rightly deserves its S-rank. It effectively counters good defensive mons like Ferrothorn, Chansey and Rotom-Wash and can support its team amazingly by Magic Bouncing (or just the threat of Bouncing) status and hazards back at the opponent.
Gothitelle should be banned:
There's no doubt in anyone's mind that trapping is uncompetitive. However, Gothitelle's effectiveness at trapping is unmatched, particularly because of how well it uses Heatran, Clefable, Chansey, non-WW Skarmory, Ferrothorn and a host of other walls as an opportunity to Trick, Rest off the damage and set up CM's. When combined with the right teammates, it can almost always find a way to get into play, trick a scarf onto something and proceed to set up Calm Minds or just let Struggle take its toll. While this isn't extremely effective against offensive teams, it does find a lot of opportunities to get the crucial easy kill that allows its teammates to sweep.
----
I'm not totally sure of this, but I feel like Gothitelle is the root of the problem, simply because it doesn't have checks and counters by definition. Sableye is annoying, for sure, but like I said above, it has issues with other super-viable Pokemon that prevent it from being the catch-all pokemon that Gothitelle is.
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Well it's about damn time! Lol been waiting for a Shadow Tag suspect since early XY. Don't agree with the Sablenite part, but at least Gothitelle is finally up on the chopping block. This thing is absolute cancer, and I'm surprised it's survived in OU for this long. If you've ever witnessed a Gothitelle spam Rest while it forces Chansey to use all of its Seismic Tosses and finally Struggle to death, I think you'd agree that this thing is disgusting. Pretty much anything incapable of 3HKO'ing Gothitelle is a potential victim to this, and since Stall teams in particular are so passive, Gothitelle can pretty much shut them down single handedly. Gothitelle is mostly seen on stall, but stall itself struggles so much against it. Pursuit trappers aren't a solid answer at all, and there are plenty of ways around this (my favourite being U-Turn). Gothorita is also capable of being a little bitch, and while Wobbuffet is somewhat different, I'd still like to see it go too. People underestimate what Wobbuffet can actually do. It's usually at least 1 free kill against offense, and it can PP stall more passive Pokemon, in my case Umbreon :[
So please, BAN SHADOW TAG!
As for Mega Sableye, keep in mind that it's a Mega Pokemon. Of course it's good! I'm not saying that Mega Pokemon can't be broken, but I don't think that's the case for Mega Sableye. It's just different to other Mega Pokemon in that it has Magic Bounce. But it isn't as powerful as other Megas (obviously) and its bulk is sub-par when compared to stuff like Mega Venusaur and Mega Slowbro. Mega Sableye's bulk is actually pretty bad. Beating it isn't too difficult. The only argument I'm really seeing is that it limits hazard stacking, making stall 'unbreakable'. Teams that rely on hazards alone to beat stall should just find a better answer tbh. If that answer is stopped by Gothitelle, then Gothitelle is the problem!
There's no other Mega like Sableye, but that isn't a reason to ban it. DON'T BAN SABLENITE!
Well, those are my thoughts anyway. I know alot of people feel differently, but that's how I see the issue. At the very least, we should ban Shadow Tag first and then see if Mega Sableye is still an issue. Anyway, guess it's time to break out the Ditto Stall one last time and abuse Goth while I can :p
So please, BAN SHADOW TAG!
As for Mega Sableye, keep in mind that it's a Mega Pokemon. Of course it's good! I'm not saying that Mega Pokemon can't be broken, but I don't think that's the case for Mega Sableye. It's just different to other Mega Pokemon in that it has Magic Bounce. But it isn't as powerful as other Megas (obviously) and its bulk is sub-par when compared to stuff like Mega Venusaur and Mega Slowbro. Mega Sableye's bulk is actually pretty bad. Beating it isn't too difficult. The only argument I'm really seeing is that it limits hazard stacking, making stall 'unbreakable'. Teams that rely on hazards alone to beat stall should just find a better answer tbh. If that answer is stopped by Gothitelle, then Gothitelle is the problem!
There's no other Mega like Sableye, but that isn't a reason to ban it. DON'T BAN SABLENITE!
Well, those are my thoughts anyway. I know alot of people feel differently, but that's how I see the issue. At the very least, we should ban Shadow Tag first and then see if Mega Sableye is still an issue. Anyway, guess it's time to break out the Ditto Stall one last time and abuse Goth while I can :p
Personally, it is my opinion that both Gothitelle and Sableye should be banned, and also that this is a very important suspect for the future of the metagame. There’s already been some discussion in the Policy Review forum, so I’m going to incorporate some of that here. This is going to be a very lengthy post, and so I’m going to put summaries and conclusions under sub headings, because I realise that not every person on this forum is going to be prepared to read the whole thing, nor should you be obligated to in order to get a basic understanding of the points I will be putting forward.
The reason as to why the ban is necessary is not a typical one, rather than being outright broken, both pokemon significantly reduce the amount of skill that can be used effectively to put the game in your favour. Essentially, they both make matchup almost the deciding factor. Thus, the reason why I want them both banned for the following reason, taken from the tiering policy framework thread:
So now that I have outlined the reason for both being banned that I am arguing for, I’ll go over the important factors to bear in mind when building up to this conclusion.
1) Sableye is used as more than just an individual pokemon, it is part of a larger defensive core. It is important to look at Sableye in the context of how it will perform in a battle. Overcoming Sableye is one thing, beating the core that it is part of is quite difficult. However, it is clear that Sableye is in fact the uncompetitive element of the hazard control core because while the other members can be replaced and the core will have the same effect, Sableye can not.
2) It is not just a question of it being possible to beat the teams that these two pokemon are a part of, but whether it is possible to do so and still be adequately prepared for the rest of the metagame. If the options are so limited that players are forced to make their team using extremely specific pokemon, or make otherwise very suboptimal choices for a team, then this is an example of overspecialisation.
3) If one pokemon is banned, and the teams utilising the other subsequently become weaker, this might not still be indicative of a balanced metagame. Due to these pokemon not being banned for the typical reason of being too powerful, but rather, too restrictive, the underlying concept in a match involving them is much more relevant than in previous suspects. If banning one causes the other’s frequency in matchup based wins to decrease, this should not be considered a success, provided that the other is still obtaining a very significant number of matchup based wins. “Match up based wins” refers to winning with little to no effort on the part of the user. A pokemon that reduces the relevance of skill in a significant number of matches still falls under the category of “uncompetitive”, even if this even occurs with less frequency than before the suspect.
Sableye
The most significant thing about Sableye is how effective it is at keeping hazards off of the field. If a defogger such as Skarmory is used with it, getting hazards up at all becomes nigh impossible. Hazards have always been very important in breaking stall builds. They are a form of long term damage, a way of rewarding double switches, and also a good way to pressure the opponent into switching into a defogger that something can take advantage of. Without these, there is little reward for pulling aggressive switches, getting chip damage on pokemon becomes very difficult, and as such you become increasingly reliant on powerful stallbreakers to achieve a victory.
To go into that last point in more detail, these stallbreakers can’t just be any pokemon that hit hard, they have to be ones that are very effective against the stall team in question. Hypothetically, suppose that a particular wallbreaker does about 40% to whatever check the opponent is running for it, and that you also have a pokemon which can force this check out. It’s not hard to see a good strategy against this team, you can get up stealth rock, and pull a double once or twice to make the opponent tentative to switch it in again against this stallbreaker, then proceed to get a kill. However, in a hazardless game, the extra 20% or however much is needed becomes many times more difficult to get. Provided that the opponent recognises that it is important to keep this check at high health, short of a well timed crit, the required chip damage just isn’t going to happen. Even if you do play smart and double in whatever beats x threat every single time, there will be no reward for doing so provided that the opponent also has a check to whatever you are doubling into.
The above scenario is what I mean when I talk about Sableye cutting off support between pokemon in a team, because rather than being able to force out threats and get some chip damage for each other, they function separately, and you don’t stand very much chance of winning unless you run a pokemon which is sufficiently threatening to the whole team. This is the main issue with Sableye, it has the astounding ability to turn a bad matchup into what seems like a guaranteed loss. There is no series of smart plays that will enable you to get the required chip damage on the stall team in question, and thus it takes a great deal of control out of the hands of the player, making the game all about the teams rather than the people using them. Furthermore, due to the player facing the Sableye team having so few options at their disposal, provided the matchup is good and it very often is, the Sableye player can make very obvious plays without fear of being punished. It’s no wonder that games involving this pokemon are long and boring, despite a winner and loser being established almost immediately. Note that while stall teams should not be punished for every predictable play, because stall is sadly a low-risk low-reward playstyle in which the most obvious play is almost always the best one, there is a huge difference between being having the opportunity to get slight chip damage which will be useful in the long term, and not being able to do so at all, whatever move you make.
Conclusion of my analysis on Sableye
Overall, Sableye necessitates the use of very specific breakers in order to not lose at team preview, and serves as a large restriction on teambuilding. Due to a lack of hazards, and thus the ability to get chip damage through doubles, there is a distinct lack of smart plays available to the player facing it. As for the player using it, Sableye turns a safer play for stall into an unpunishable one. Building for stall in general is not enough, one must build specifically to face the exact stall team that Sableye is being used on, and use the exact pokemon required. Sableye takes a great deal of control out of the hands of the players, and places it instead in into what is being used. It is clear that Sableye deducts from the usefulness of skill in a game wherever it is present, because the outcome of the game is more or less decided immediately. Due to these reasons, Sableye is an uncompetitive pokemon, and strongly deserves a ban.
Gothitelle
It should already be obvious what this pokemon can do already, but just to be clear, the set in question is:
What this can do is to trap a large range of pokemon and trick them a choice scarf, usually significantly decreasing their effectiveness to point of no longer being able to perform their function against the opposing stall team. Alternatively, it can Thunder Wave a pokemon, making 2hkos very difficult to achieve because a check can be switched in, then spam recovery in an attempt to fish for paras. Finally, it can just eliminate certain pokemon outright, and if used carefully, can retain the choice scarf after doing so. Examples of pokemon that it can defeat to this degree would be Clefable and Heatran, who might otherwise be useful in being a good switch into moves that inflict status (scald, will o wisp, toxic), and set up rocks or fish for burns on Sableye respectively.
To return to my first point, Gothitelle seriously restricts the number of breakers that are effective against a stall team that it is used against. Most breakers rely on either a life orb, choice specs, or choice band item to receive the necessary power, or are very dependent on switching up moves, such as Manaphy setting up Tail Glow then spamming scald. What this means is that if a stall player lacks a switch in to a certain breaker, they can still make use of this, in many cases going so far as to render what could have been a valuable member of your team in this matchup useless.
The effect of this is that a player in order to beat a stall team containing this pokemon, bearing in mind that it will usually be used on a team with Mega Sableye, must bring one of the very few breakers which can actually use the shed shell item, Togekiss and Manaphy being the only examples that come to mind, plus a pursuit trapper specifically for this team. Alternatively, a team can be absolutely stacked with breakers, or make use of one of the few mega evolutions that can beat this team, supported by a healing wish user, the most obvious example being Mega Gardevoir. There may be pokemon which do not fall into one of the above categories, such as lures, and Gengar, which is unable to be trapped, but this is a very small category. What this amounts to is a limited range of options, which can be limited even further depending on what the Gothitelle player chooses to run on their stall team. So just to make that clear, unless you dedicate about two slots specifically to working around this pokemon, often running the otherwise useless Shed Shell item on one of those pokemon, you are left with no opportunity to outplay it. This is a clear example of overspecialisation for a specific teamstyle.
It is certainly true that this pokemon removes the available options for the player facing it, because if they utilise the pokemon that the stall player wants to trap, then it can be eliminated with little effort required on the part of the Gothitelle player. Furthermore, it turns passive pokemon into bait, and although I personally prefer more offensive builds, it almost always puts the Gothitelle user in a vastly favourable position against any kind of build in which a significant number of pokemon are used defensively.
Conclusion of my analysis on Gothitelle
Gothitelle functions as a very effective way of eliminating otherwise threatening pokemon, almost a catch-all safety measure for what the stall team can’t initially handle. This results in an even more specific list of pokemon which are effective, or the necessity to stack breakers to an unreasonable degree, which is overspecialisation. The effect it has on more bulky builds is even more terrifying, being able to eliminate any pokemon which can not deal significant damage. It takes control out of the hands of the player facing it, and puts it absolutely in the hands of the player using it, with it only needing to be present on the team to accomplish this goal. Due to this lack of control that the player facing Gothitelle has over the game, the range of useful plays they can make is dramatically reduced, and thus it is uncompetitive. For the aforementioned reasons, this pokemon should be banned.
Overall Summary
Together, these pokemon have a devastating effect on a match they are used in.
Due to Sableye, without breakers which are very effective against the specific stall team, the match is already decided, making the outcome of the game more about matchup rather than skill shown by the players.
Due to Gothitelle, the range of breakers that would be effective against the stall team is now dramatically reduced, and thus in combination with Sableye, this results in excessive overspecialisation required to win. Furthermore, the Gothitelle user has much more control over the match than the player facing it.
Adaptation is one thing, but if I have demonstrated anything, I hope that it is that the degree of adaptation required is unreasonable. In considering the future of the tier, we must also consider that the typical team containing these two suspect pokemon can be changed to handle different pokemon to better suit common threats, and therefore it is not as simple as everyone picking from the short list of pokemon that currently beats this team.
Furthermore, for the reason that I outlined at the start of this post, whereby a decrease in frequency of games decided by uncompetitive pokemon still does not result in a desirable tier provided that the games in question still occur a significant amount, whether or not one pokemon becomes worse by the other getting banned should not impact your decision on banning both. We have already given the meta time to settle, and in order for it to be fun, enjoyable, and test of skill rather than team matchup, it is clear that these two should have no part in it.
The reason as to why the ban is necessary is not a typical one, rather than being outright broken, both pokemon significantly reduce the amount of skill that can be used effectively to put the game in your favour. Essentially, they both make matchup almost the deciding factor. Thus, the reason why I want them both banned for the following reason, taken from the tiering policy framework thread:
Aldaron said:
So now that I have outlined the reason for both being banned that I am arguing for, I’ll go over the important factors to bear in mind when building up to this conclusion.
1) Sableye is used as more than just an individual pokemon, it is part of a larger defensive core. It is important to look at Sableye in the context of how it will perform in a battle. Overcoming Sableye is one thing, beating the core that it is part of is quite difficult. However, it is clear that Sableye is in fact the uncompetitive element of the hazard control core because while the other members can be replaced and the core will have the same effect, Sableye can not.
2) It is not just a question of it being possible to beat the teams that these two pokemon are a part of, but whether it is possible to do so and still be adequately prepared for the rest of the metagame. If the options are so limited that players are forced to make their team using extremely specific pokemon, or make otherwise very suboptimal choices for a team, then this is an example of overspecialisation.
3) If one pokemon is banned, and the teams utilising the other subsequently become weaker, this might not still be indicative of a balanced metagame. Due to these pokemon not being banned for the typical reason of being too powerful, but rather, too restrictive, the underlying concept in a match involving them is much more relevant than in previous suspects. If banning one causes the other’s frequency in matchup based wins to decrease, this should not be considered a success, provided that the other is still obtaining a very significant number of matchup based wins. “Match up based wins” refers to winning with little to no effort on the part of the user. A pokemon that reduces the relevance of skill in a significant number of matches still falls under the category of “uncompetitive”, even if this even occurs with less frequency than before the suspect.
Sableye
The most significant thing about Sableye is how effective it is at keeping hazards off of the field. If a defogger such as Skarmory is used with it, getting hazards up at all becomes nigh impossible. Hazards have always been very important in breaking stall builds. They are a form of long term damage, a way of rewarding double switches, and also a good way to pressure the opponent into switching into a defogger that something can take advantage of. Without these, there is little reward for pulling aggressive switches, getting chip damage on pokemon becomes very difficult, and as such you become increasingly reliant on powerful stallbreakers to achieve a victory.
To go into that last point in more detail, these stallbreakers can’t just be any pokemon that hit hard, they have to be ones that are very effective against the stall team in question. Hypothetically, suppose that a particular wallbreaker does about 40% to whatever check the opponent is running for it, and that you also have a pokemon which can force this check out. It’s not hard to see a good strategy against this team, you can get up stealth rock, and pull a double once or twice to make the opponent tentative to switch it in again against this stallbreaker, then proceed to get a kill. However, in a hazardless game, the extra 20% or however much is needed becomes many times more difficult to get. Provided that the opponent recognises that it is important to keep this check at high health, short of a well timed crit, the required chip damage just isn’t going to happen. Even if you do play smart and double in whatever beats x threat every single time, there will be no reward for doing so provided that the opponent also has a check to whatever you are doubling into.
The above scenario is what I mean when I talk about Sableye cutting off support between pokemon in a team, because rather than being able to force out threats and get some chip damage for each other, they function separately, and you don’t stand very much chance of winning unless you run a pokemon which is sufficiently threatening to the whole team. This is the main issue with Sableye, it has the astounding ability to turn a bad matchup into what seems like a guaranteed loss. There is no series of smart plays that will enable you to get the required chip damage on the stall team in question, and thus it takes a great deal of control out of the hands of the player, making the game all about the teams rather than the people using them. Furthermore, due to the player facing the Sableye team having so few options at their disposal, provided the matchup is good and it very often is, the Sableye player can make very obvious plays without fear of being punished. It’s no wonder that games involving this pokemon are long and boring, despite a winner and loser being established almost immediately. Note that while stall teams should not be punished for every predictable play, because stall is sadly a low-risk low-reward playstyle in which the most obvious play is almost always the best one, there is a huge difference between being having the opportunity to get slight chip damage which will be useful in the long term, and not being able to do so at all, whatever move you make.
Conclusion of my analysis on Sableye
Overall, Sableye necessitates the use of very specific breakers in order to not lose at team preview, and serves as a large restriction on teambuilding. Due to a lack of hazards, and thus the ability to get chip damage through doubles, there is a distinct lack of smart plays available to the player facing it. As for the player using it, Sableye turns a safer play for stall into an unpunishable one. Building for stall in general is not enough, one must build specifically to face the exact stall team that Sableye is being used on, and use the exact pokemon required. Sableye takes a great deal of control out of the hands of the players, and places it instead in into what is being used. It is clear that Sableye deducts from the usefulness of skill in a game wherever it is present, because the outcome of the game is more or less decided immediately. Due to these reasons, Sableye is an uncompetitive pokemon, and strongly deserves a ban.
Gothitelle
It should already be obvious what this pokemon can do already, but just to be clear, the set in question is:
Gothitelle (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 128 HP / 128 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave
- Rest
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 128 HP / 128 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave
- Rest
What this can do is to trap a large range of pokemon and trick them a choice scarf, usually significantly decreasing their effectiveness to point of no longer being able to perform their function against the opposing stall team. Alternatively, it can Thunder Wave a pokemon, making 2hkos very difficult to achieve because a check can be switched in, then spam recovery in an attempt to fish for paras. Finally, it can just eliminate certain pokemon outright, and if used carefully, can retain the choice scarf after doing so. Examples of pokemon that it can defeat to this degree would be Clefable and Heatran, who might otherwise be useful in being a good switch into moves that inflict status (scald, will o wisp, toxic), and set up rocks or fish for burns on Sableye respectively.
To return to my first point, Gothitelle seriously restricts the number of breakers that are effective against a stall team that it is used against. Most breakers rely on either a life orb, choice specs, or choice band item to receive the necessary power, or are very dependent on switching up moves, such as Manaphy setting up Tail Glow then spamming scald. What this means is that if a stall player lacks a switch in to a certain breaker, they can still make use of this, in many cases going so far as to render what could have been a valuable member of your team in this matchup useless.
The effect of this is that a player in order to beat a stall team containing this pokemon, bearing in mind that it will usually be used on a team with Mega Sableye, must bring one of the very few breakers which can actually use the shed shell item, Togekiss and Manaphy being the only examples that come to mind, plus a pursuit trapper specifically for this team. Alternatively, a team can be absolutely stacked with breakers, or make use of one of the few mega evolutions that can beat this team, supported by a healing wish user, the most obvious example being Mega Gardevoir. There may be pokemon which do not fall into one of the above categories, such as lures, and Gengar, which is unable to be trapped, but this is a very small category. What this amounts to is a limited range of options, which can be limited even further depending on what the Gothitelle player chooses to run on their stall team. So just to make that clear, unless you dedicate about two slots specifically to working around this pokemon, often running the otherwise useless Shed Shell item on one of those pokemon, you are left with no opportunity to outplay it. This is a clear example of overspecialisation for a specific teamstyle.
It is certainly true that this pokemon removes the available options for the player facing it, because if they utilise the pokemon that the stall player wants to trap, then it can be eliminated with little effort required on the part of the Gothitelle player. Furthermore, it turns passive pokemon into bait, and although I personally prefer more offensive builds, it almost always puts the Gothitelle user in a vastly favourable position against any kind of build in which a significant number of pokemon are used defensively.
Conclusion of my analysis on Gothitelle
Gothitelle functions as a very effective way of eliminating otherwise threatening pokemon, almost a catch-all safety measure for what the stall team can’t initially handle. This results in an even more specific list of pokemon which are effective, or the necessity to stack breakers to an unreasonable degree, which is overspecialisation. The effect it has on more bulky builds is even more terrifying, being able to eliminate any pokemon which can not deal significant damage. It takes control out of the hands of the player facing it, and puts it absolutely in the hands of the player using it, with it only needing to be present on the team to accomplish this goal. Due to this lack of control that the player facing Gothitelle has over the game, the range of useful plays they can make is dramatically reduced, and thus it is uncompetitive. For the aforementioned reasons, this pokemon should be banned.
Overall Summary
Together, these pokemon have a devastating effect on a match they are used in.
Due to Sableye, without breakers which are very effective against the specific stall team, the match is already decided, making the outcome of the game more about matchup rather than skill shown by the players.
Due to Gothitelle, the range of breakers that would be effective against the stall team is now dramatically reduced, and thus in combination with Sableye, this results in excessive overspecialisation required to win. Furthermore, the Gothitelle user has much more control over the match than the player facing it.
Adaptation is one thing, but if I have demonstrated anything, I hope that it is that the degree of adaptation required is unreasonable. In considering the future of the tier, we must also consider that the typical team containing these two suspect pokemon can be changed to handle different pokemon to better suit common threats, and therefore it is not as simple as everyone picking from the short list of pokemon that currently beats this team.
Furthermore, for the reason that I outlined at the start of this post, whereby a decrease in frequency of games decided by uncompetitive pokemon still does not result in a desirable tier provided that the games in question still occur a significant amount, whether or not one pokemon becomes worse by the other getting banned should not impact your decision on banning both. We have already given the meta time to settle, and in order for it to be fun, enjoyable, and test of skill rather than team matchup, it is clear that these two should have no part in it.
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Keep Mega Sableye, ban Shadow Tag
Echoing what pretty much everyone has said, but I don't exactly see what makes Mega Sableye broken, per se. When looking at the teambuilder, I only felt considerably threatened by it when it was paired up with Gothitelle; Ergo, it follows that Shadow Tag is the culprit here. I mean, sure, only a select few Pokemon can set up hazards through Sableye (Clefable and SD Lum Garchomp are a couple I can think of) but unless you play like an idiot, you can probably tell when Sableye is coming in and just hit it to get some chip damage off on it (I think someone earlier mentioned that it's not that hard to wear down due to having 50 base HP?)
Even when we're only looking at M-Sableye and Shadow Tag individually rather than when they're on the same team, let's really look at it - Mega Sableye at least keeps hazard-stacking teams in check, but due to the very nature of how Shadow Tag works, it can't meet the definition of "competitive" regardless of how far you twist it. This adds to why I feel like we shouldn't be banning Mega Sableye because it keeps lazy cookie-cutter hazard-stacking teams from having a field day, esp. against stall.
tl;dr: Shadow Tag is the culprit here, ergo ban Shadow Tag
Echoing what pretty much everyone has said, but I don't exactly see what makes Mega Sableye broken, per se. When looking at the teambuilder, I only felt considerably threatened by it when it was paired up with Gothitelle; Ergo, it follows that Shadow Tag is the culprit here. I mean, sure, only a select few Pokemon can set up hazards through Sableye (Clefable and SD Lum Garchomp are a couple I can think of) but unless you play like an idiot, you can probably tell when Sableye is coming in and just hit it to get some chip damage off on it (I think someone earlier mentioned that it's not that hard to wear down due to having 50 base HP?)
Even when we're only looking at M-Sableye and Shadow Tag individually rather than when they're on the same team, let's really look at it - Mega Sableye at least keeps hazard-stacking teams in check, but due to the very nature of how Shadow Tag works, it can't meet the definition of "competitive" regardless of how far you twist it. This adds to why I feel like we shouldn't be banning Mega Sableye because it keeps lazy cookie-cutter hazard-stacking teams from having a field day, esp. against stall.
tl;dr: Shadow Tag is the culprit here, ergo ban Shadow Tag
not trying to be a sheeple or anything
but if you guys watch blunder's heatah fajita #50, their first battle they spent like 20 or so turns and who knows how much time just wasting away their lives so the goth user could stall out and beat a heatran 1v1. when your method of winning includes rest stalling like 20+ PP of a move to win, is that really making the metagame "healthier"? Other methods of stall at least require some form of skill other than clicking rest 10 times.
Ban goth/stag/goth family
(just using the vid as an example bc i have no replays)
but if you guys watch blunder's heatah fajita #50, their first battle they spent like 20 or so turns and who knows how much time just wasting away their lives so the goth user could stall out and beat a heatran 1v1. when your method of winning includes rest stalling like 20+ PP of a move to win, is that really making the metagame "healthier"? Other methods of stall at least require some form of skill other than clicking rest 10 times.
Ban goth/stag/goth family
(just using the vid as an example bc i have no replays)
Hey everyone.
Honestly, I'm really on the fence with the Mega Sableye ban; MSab doesn't force as many obscure sets or mons as Gothitelle, and with the prevalence of fairy types like Diancie, Altaria, Gardevoir, and Clefable, MSab does have its fair share of vulnerabilities. However, the aformentioned perspective is quite objective, and it is important to note that MSab used in conjunction with a full-stall environment alongside mons like Skarmory or (gasp) Gothitelle makes it incredibly difficult for otherwise "viable" teams to function. MSab stall almost forces teams to come prepared with mons that would not be a quarter as effective in battles against archetypes other than stall, which forces a more matchup-based metagame. While I'm leaning towards a ban on Sablenite, I'm going to look into the matter a bit further to come up with a final conclusion. That's what the suspect (and subsequent forum thread) is for.
Shadow Tag, the recently emerged aegis of competitive stall, has caused quite some chaos in the current metagame, with legitimate reason to back the up the commotion. Specifically Gothitelle, the kingpin of Shadow Tag users, has allowed stall (and not just stall, at that) teams to effectively cripple, if not rid themselves, of a cleric, hazard remover, or wallbreaker, giving opponents extremely low chances of recovering and overcoming their losses. The same goes for Gothorita, Wobbuffett, and Wynaut, but to a far lesser extent. Sure, there are ways to deal with Shadow Tag, but most of the time, the abstruse sets the ability results in come at a significant cost to any team's overall performance against teams without Shadow Tag. (Otherwise, simply having a Shadow Tag user on the team forces 50/50 predictions, and occasionally, a near auto-loss for "unprepared" teams.) The "low-risk, high reward" playstyle and the thoughtless picking and choosing of which threats to remove granted by Shadow Tag leads to the development of an absurd and holistically unhealthy metagame. All-in-all, my resolution is to ban Shadow Tag.
Honestly, I'm really on the fence with the Mega Sableye ban; MSab doesn't force as many obscure sets or mons as Gothitelle, and with the prevalence of fairy types like Diancie, Altaria, Gardevoir, and Clefable, MSab does have its fair share of vulnerabilities. However, the aformentioned perspective is quite objective, and it is important to note that MSab used in conjunction with a full-stall environment alongside mons like Skarmory or (gasp) Gothitelle makes it incredibly difficult for otherwise "viable" teams to function. MSab stall almost forces teams to come prepared with mons that would not be a quarter as effective in battles against archetypes other than stall, which forces a more matchup-based metagame. While I'm leaning towards a ban on Sablenite, I'm going to look into the matter a bit further to come up with a final conclusion. That's what the suspect (and subsequent forum thread) is for.
Shadow Tag, the recently emerged aegis of competitive stall, has caused quite some chaos in the current metagame, with legitimate reason to back the up the commotion. Specifically Gothitelle, the kingpin of Shadow Tag users, has allowed stall (and not just stall, at that) teams to effectively cripple, if not rid themselves, of a cleric, hazard remover, or wallbreaker, giving opponents extremely low chances of recovering and overcoming their losses. The same goes for Gothorita, Wobbuffett, and Wynaut, but to a far lesser extent. Sure, there are ways to deal with Shadow Tag, but most of the time, the abstruse sets the ability results in come at a significant cost to any team's overall performance against teams without Shadow Tag. (Otherwise, simply having a Shadow Tag user on the team forces 50/50 predictions, and occasionally, a near auto-loss for "unprepared" teams.) The "low-risk, high reward" playstyle and the thoughtless picking and choosing of which threats to remove granted by Shadow Tag leads to the development of an absurd and holistically unhealthy metagame. All-in-all, my resolution is to ban Shadow Tag.
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The problem is that it can't reliably prevent hazards from going up.
Heatran, Clefable, and Garchomp are good examples of hazard setters who abuse Sableye. With Lum Berry or Swords Dance, Garchomp can predict the Sableye switch in and then proceed to nuke it. Heatran loves burning Sableye on the switch in and isn't that afraid of coming into play against it, bar Knock off. Other hazard users like Skarmory, Ferrothorn or Chansey can be used as bait to bring Sableye into play and gain free momentum by double-switching to Diancie, Gardevoir, Azumarill, Altaria, Clefable, etc. OU is not at a loss for good Fairy Type attackers, and these fairies are often hard to wall effectively once in play.
When used for stall, Sableye can be a great defense against hazards but its inability to deal with set up attackers often has a cost. Sableye pretty much needs Chansey and/or Quagsire, both relatively non-viable pokemon, as support. Even with great hazard control, its weakness to fairies and burns can make its job a lot harder. I've never felt really restricted playing against stall teams that don't have Sableye+Gothitelle, and I suspect a lot of OU players can relate.
Last, I don't think hazards should get a free pass as a necessary condition for winning. Every other aspect of the metagame is well checked, save hazard stacking teams. Spinners like Starmie and Excadrill struggle to provide offense, prevent spinblockers from stopping them and fulfill their purpose on teams. Both have few abuseable resists and often run Life Orb, meaning that switching in, taking LO recoil and using a turn to Spin equates to them often losing half of their HP. If they instead run more defensive sets, they are both roughly one-trick ponies who can't break any common walls or spinblockers. Defoggers like Lati@s are at the mercy of Bisharp and Pursuit Metagross/Tyranitar, while Skarmory struggles to do anything but manage hazards and Roost off damage, limiting offensive potential. There are few pokemon who can regularly switch in and clear the field of hazards. Hazards are most punishing for offense, where Stealth Rock can drastically limit how effective Talonflame, Zard, Volcarona or Kyurem-B are and where Spikes can wear down anything without recovery moves. Sableye helps to bridge this gap for offense, allowing the player to invest in one wall that manages hazards moderately well without having to give up needed turns to clear hazards.
I've been thinking about the Shadow Tag vs Goth standpoint for the suspect and I've come to a question I can't figure out.
So let's go over what issue I came across when it comes down to Shadow Tag:
Wob, Wyanut, Gothita. They simply can't do the incredibly niche role that stall currently needs, and as such their success is practically non-existent. I feel like it's a complete failure of the OU suspect system to can't ban something that can't be broken but it really doesn't matter, as this is the less important point. We could put Caterpie in Ubers and it'd have about the same effect on the metagame as putting Wob in Ubers.
What makes me more concerned are people think Gothorita is also alarming suspect. Yes, she can do what Goth does... but to a much lesser extent. While the common argument is that she has "the same trapping abilities as her evolution", this statement is grossly exaggerated, as she crumples under some of the harder hitting stallmons and a large amount of offensive mons that Gothitelle is capable of handling. A lot of the major arguments I've seen towards why she is so dangerous are paper thin and full of holes, calcs and replays that are supposed to be showing her off falter when you notice that she's vulnerable to being 1 shot by high rolls and is totally reliant on Sableye to keep hazards off the field to survive offensive threats, and I feel that bringing up the Stall mirror for STag ultimately is pointless, as it being legal or not effectively negates itself in the match-up, and there should be a larger focus on vs offensive match-ups, where Gothorita notably under-performs. There are some exceptions to this though, but the only one I feel is game defining is blocking Manaphy from just tearing a stall teams apart... and that's the fact got me to one question I asked myself.
If it is so absolutely gamebreaking that stall can eliminate Manaphy from its threatlist, and Gothorita is broken on the sole reason that it can do this, then is stall too strong, not Shadow Tag?
The idea goes like this: ultimately, I feel like pretty much any other threat the Gothorita covers CAN be handled if you're the better player when using a non-trapper stall, but Manaphy is this special edge case that keeps popping up. The Goth line stops it from flatting stall teams, when very little else that can consistently contribute to the stall playstyle can. It's simply the most efficient way to deal with something that otherwise should win the game nearly by itself. But is Goth broken because they remove a key out that players feel like we "should" have to stall? I feel like this common answer is backwards thinking.
I feel like the more logical conclusion should be the fact that Sableye is forcing stall into a position where Gothorita could be put on the team for the sole purpose of neutering a single threat and be successful because that single threat is one of the best bets we have left against stall. If this really is the case, then let me create a metaphor to demonstrate my issue with this: If teams could be measured by distance, and a team would be broken if it passed a Kilometer, a standard stall team might start at 600m, and adding sableye adds another 390m, and adding Gothorita adds another 20m to that. Yes, you've broken the game and made an Uber 1.01km team, but saying Gothorita is at fault for reaching that point is sort of ridiculous. You can argue semantics on the numbers I used, but the general idea is true: Stall has a mediocre starting point, Sab skyrockets its power level, then the Goth family takes the already high power level and pushes it over the edge. If you assume this metaphor true, the statement that Goth breaks stall is correct, but it feels more correct by saying it's Sab's doing.
So the real, final question I reached from that:
If Gothorita is worth suspecting, is it actually broken, or is Mega Sableye broken for creating a meta where so few threats to stall exist?
So let's go over what issue I came across when it comes down to Shadow Tag:
Wob, Wyanut, Gothita. They simply can't do the incredibly niche role that stall currently needs, and as such their success is practically non-existent. I feel like it's a complete failure of the OU suspect system to can't ban something that can't be broken but it really doesn't matter, as this is the less important point. We could put Caterpie in Ubers and it'd have about the same effect on the metagame as putting Wob in Ubers.
What makes me more concerned are people think Gothorita is also alarming suspect. Yes, she can do what Goth does... but to a much lesser extent. While the common argument is that she has "the same trapping abilities as her evolution", this statement is grossly exaggerated, as she crumples under some of the harder hitting stallmons and a large amount of offensive mons that Gothitelle is capable of handling. A lot of the major arguments I've seen towards why she is so dangerous are paper thin and full of holes, calcs and replays that are supposed to be showing her off falter when you notice that she's vulnerable to being 1 shot by high rolls and is totally reliant on Sableye to keep hazards off the field to survive offensive threats, and I feel that bringing up the Stall mirror for STag ultimately is pointless, as it being legal or not effectively negates itself in the match-up, and there should be a larger focus on vs offensive match-ups, where Gothorita notably under-performs. There are some exceptions to this though, but the only one I feel is game defining is blocking Manaphy from just tearing a stall teams apart... and that's the fact got me to one question I asked myself.
If it is so absolutely gamebreaking that stall can eliminate Manaphy from its threatlist, and Gothorita is broken on the sole reason that it can do this, then is stall too strong, not Shadow Tag?
The idea goes like this: ultimately, I feel like pretty much any other threat the Gothorita covers CAN be handled if you're the better player when using a non-trapper stall, but Manaphy is this special edge case that keeps popping up. The Goth line stops it from flatting stall teams, when very little else that can consistently contribute to the stall playstyle can. It's simply the most efficient way to deal with something that otherwise should win the game nearly by itself. But is Goth broken because they remove a key out that players feel like we "should" have to stall? I feel like this common answer is backwards thinking.
I feel like the more logical conclusion should be the fact that Sableye is forcing stall into a position where Gothorita could be put on the team for the sole purpose of neutering a single threat and be successful because that single threat is one of the best bets we have left against stall. If this really is the case, then let me create a metaphor to demonstrate my issue with this: If teams could be measured by distance, and a team would be broken if it passed a Kilometer, a standard stall team might start at 600m, and adding sableye adds another 390m, and adding Gothorita adds another 20m to that. Yes, you've broken the game and made an Uber 1.01km team, but saying Gothorita is at fault for reaching that point is sort of ridiculous. You can argue semantics on the numbers I used, but the general idea is true: Stall has a mediocre starting point, Sab skyrockets its power level, then the Goth family takes the already high power level and pushes it over the edge. If you assume this metaphor true, the statement that Goth breaks stall is correct, but it feels more correct by saying it's Sab's doing.
So the real, final question I reached from that:
If Gothorita is worth suspecting, is it actually broken, or is Mega Sableye broken for creating a meta where so few threats to stall exist?
I honestly don't know why Shadow Tag is being suspected instead of just the Goths. It's not like you can just swap in Goth for Wobbu and it just works the same. Wobbu is a pure prediction pokemon, and you can bring up the 50/50 argument, but you waste an entire slot to use a pokemon that's not guaranteed to give you anything. It's not like Goth where you're virtually guarenteed to screw up something.
I mean we might as well suspect and ban Arena Trap as well, if the ability to stop switching is uncompetitive regardless of the pokemon it's on. Wobbuffet has sat in BL tier for the entirety of 5th gen and 6th gen up to present and no one has said a peep about it problematic or banworthy. Even in the viability rankings, it's been sitting in C+ for the longest amount of time, and multiple nominations for moving him up were dismissed or brushed off, so I know the problem is not the ability but the pokemon that's using it.
I mean we might as well suspect and ban Arena Trap as well, if the ability to stop switching is uncompetitive regardless of the pokemon it's on. Wobbuffet has sat in BL tier for the entirety of 5th gen and 6th gen up to present and no one has said a peep about it problematic or banworthy. Even in the viability rankings, it's been sitting in C+ for the longest amount of time, and multiple nominations for moving him up were dismissed or brushed off, so I know the problem is not the ability but the pokemon that's using it.
I would have liked to have seen Shadow Tag suspected (and banned) separately first because if there's one thing in this game that the buzzword "uncompetitive" fits, it would have to be Shadow Tag. Removing arguably the most important game mechanic and option a player has at their disposal in a near universal and one-sided manner has all sorts of bad implications for the game. The Goth family has proven to be cancerous for well known reasons both on and against stall teams and warps the metagame. Wobb isn't particularly problematic at this point, but the ability itself is undeniably dubious to the point where it's safe to say that the meta is always going to be better off without it due to the inherent issues it introduces. Without Shadow Tag around, I reckon we'd have a better ground for determining whether Sablenite is worthy of a suspect and ban, because they are intermingled quite strongly at the moment.
Therefore I'd encourage voting to Ban Shadow Tag and Keep Sablenite. Cross the bridges one at a time. Shadow Tag is inherently cancerous and has to go if the health of the game is considered a priority. After that if we feel Sablenite is still problematic, sure, put it up for a suspect again.
Therefore I'd encourage voting to Ban Shadow Tag and Keep Sablenite. Cross the bridges one at a time. Shadow Tag is inherently cancerous and has to go if the health of the game is considered a priority. After that if we feel Sablenite is still problematic, sure, put it up for a suspect again.
So a couple of things I've seen.
We're not banning Sableye + Goth together as described here.
To everyone arguing about, ban the users not the ability, and "Zarel had some good points here in a PR thread." Well fun fact, we (members of the council) had this debate with Zarel before hand in a conversation before posting this. Two, that discussion that people keep referencing actually has never been concluded once and for all if you aren't aware, and I think it's safe to assume we're not waiting 2+ months (normally when stuff like this ever becomes concluded) to figure that out with spl on the horizon and tensions already boiling over.
We're suspecting STAG not the users because we believe that STAG, the ability itself, is what aggravates the meta and amplifies Goth and Wobbs potential. We did not want to represent the users as the culprit because the ability is the main reference point. STAG itself has been banned in the lower tiers, not the user themselves, for more or less the same reason we are looking into it now for OU. Whether or not that current ban is still warranted, this happened during kokolokos time as UU leader fyi, is another story for an entirely other place but this is sort of some condensed logic to go off so people don't keep asking the question and instead address the points that are pertinent to what everyone is looking for.
You're free to argue any of these points if you feel inclined to do so but be aware the OU tier as much as people like to assume and say "it's easy just suspect this" isn't that simple due to the amount of scrutiny these suspect tests get in comparison to other tiers and the natural time it takes to review the meta for legitimate potential suspects, if any were to be fostered.
Your last sentence is fine if that's what you think, that is a legitimate stance. The statement before that is implying again, stability in the meta to see if it's an issue. That takes months, and as mentioned prior with spl around the corner we were inclined to get this over with so that we don't hit, we sort of have but not like some past suspects from what I've seen, a breaking point where the obvious answer becomes just to ban it from a community standpoint. Evidently judging by the posts there's at least some logic being used where not everyone is going ban happy, something that happens way too often when it takes toooo long to suspect something. Double jeopardy is pretty rare and has only happened in the instances of Deoxys (where the meta was all sorts of nonsense for those who remember) and that's really about it as far as 6th gen goes unless you count Aegislash retest as one. We'd like for this to be concluded now and move on to make the meta stability depending on the communities perception of what they believe is truly the problem in regards to the suspects.
Most of these posts have been pretty good barring trolling posts so let's try to keep it that way thanks.
We're not banning Sableye + Goth together as described here.
Not doing that. One, the other, none, or both. Those will be the options.
To everyone arguing about, ban the users not the ability, and "Zarel had some good points here in a PR thread." Well fun fact, we (members of the council) had this debate with Zarel before hand in a conversation before posting this. Two, that discussion that people keep referencing actually has never been concluded once and for all if you aren't aware, and I think it's safe to assume we're not waiting 2+ months (normally when stuff like this ever becomes concluded) to figure that out with spl on the horizon and tensions already boiling over.
We're suspecting STAG not the users because we believe that STAG, the ability itself, is what aggravates the meta and amplifies Goth and Wobbs potential. We did not want to represent the users as the culprit because the ability is the main reference point. STAG itself has been banned in the lower tiers, not the user themselves, for more or less the same reason we are looking into it now for OU. Whether or not that current ban is still warranted, this happened during kokolokos time as UU leader fyi, is another story for an entirely other place but this is sort of some condensed logic to go off so people don't keep asking the question and instead address the points that are pertinent to what everyone is looking for.
You're free to argue any of these points if you feel inclined to do so but be aware the OU tier as much as people like to assume and say "it's easy just suspect this" isn't that simple due to the amount of scrutiny these suspect tests get in comparison to other tiers and the natural time it takes to review the meta for legitimate potential suspects, if any were to be fostered.
Specifically stated to use the OU tiering policy framework as it helps objectify some of these buzzwords so that they're not thrown around left and right.
Your last sentence is fine if that's what you think, that is a legitimate stance. The statement before that is implying again, stability in the meta to see if it's an issue. That takes months, and as mentioned prior with spl around the corner we were inclined to get this over with so that we don't hit, we sort of have but not like some past suspects from what I've seen, a breaking point where the obvious answer becomes just to ban it from a community standpoint. Evidently judging by the posts there's at least some logic being used where not everyone is going ban happy, something that happens way too often when it takes toooo long to suspect something. Double jeopardy is pretty rare and has only happened in the instances of Deoxys (where the meta was all sorts of nonsense for those who remember) and that's really about it as far as 6th gen goes unless you count Aegislash retest as one. We'd like for this to be concluded now and move on to make the meta stability depending on the communities perception of what they believe is truly the problem in regards to the suspects.
Most of these posts have been pretty good barring trolling posts so let's try to keep it that way thanks.
I thought this was p.interesting. And, broadly, I agree - yeah, MSableye definitely does centralize the hazard game, can't disagree there. And the rapid spin immunity on top of everything else is just salt in the wound. But hazards have always been an inherently centralizing force anyway, and even though in practice games can come down to who can control hazards best, it's not like that's something we're entitled to as players. Anyway, hazard stacking teams can and have been doing increasingly well and even t-spikes gained some traction for a while before the meta started trending against them, all after MSab's release. While I'd personally fight against any SR suspect, when it comes to limiting factors on what can and can't set up hazards, I really can't complain. Until moves like Defog and RS become seriously ubiquitous on a whole bunch of other 'mons, how we handle hazards in any given meta is more or less an outcome of whatever decisions Game Freak wants to arbitrarily make during design time and I'm totally cool with MSableye limiting reliable SR setters to Clef and Heatran. *shrug* It's something we can and do adapt to, and not without success.
'Course that's where the STag thing comes in because locking down switching closes off most avenues to adapt to something like MSableye, or whatever inevitable new thing comes along to abuse it with. Maybe in a vacuum no-switching isn't a terribly bad thing, but in practice it has a huge impact on well built teams in removing the risk associated with several important plays (like the aforementioned MCharY + Goth v. Chansey) and (IMO) I really hate low-risk high-reward plays in any meta :'( Not to mention what's likely floating around everyone's head at the moment: Gothitelle, without STag, is shit. Really really shit. As are the other STag 'mons. And if 'mons even remotely decent BSTs and movepools were getting STag as their ability, I'm certain there'd be far too many ways to abuse them, and a very likely wave of suspects. Sure, yeah, Wynaut and Gothita might also be terrible, even with STag. But we're discussing them, right? How telling is that? Even though my mind tells me that Gothitelle specifically (with Shadow Tag) is the problem, and Gothita and Wobb are just relative annoyances, STag considered objectively (even if that's not something that's a practical thing to do) is such a problem that I find myself unable to really care about any collateral from a blanket ban.
That's all just IMO, though, I'll probably change my mind like 4 times by the end of the suspect.
Definitely an interesting decision for a suspect test. Sableye is obviously very powerful but I feel there are certain misconceptions about it and its partner in crime, Goth. First and foremost is the mechanics of trick + choice scarf. It's plain that many people just don't know exactly how this works. An example was given earlier about a Manaphy facing Sableye and having a decision to make due to the possibility of a Goth switch. However Manaphy is free to go for Tail Glow regardless of Goth switching in. Choice Scarf locks you into the move you use AFTER receiving the item, so you can still fire off plus 3 hits, generally strong enough to break these kinds of teams.
Secondly is the perception that Sableye is overly bulky. It's actual overall bulk is comparable to things like Zard Y when you account for the awful HP. Obviously Rotom-w makes do but that is because of a far superior defensive typing. Sableye is dog food when faced with big offensive threats like Zard, Lopunny or Azumarill. These are obviously not the pokemon that Sableye is supposed to handle but the fact remains it's just not bulky enough to handle half decent offensive cores.
Finally many of the arguments put forward seem to suggest that only the player with sableye is capable of making predictions. The presence of a Magic Bounce pokemon has never been a total deterrent against setting up rocks or using status in general. Sableye switches are often easy to predict so a big hit or a suitable double can give you great momentum. If you have something like Skarmory on the field the double is actually so obvious that you probably will get rocks up.
As regards Gothitelle being easy to use and therefore uncompetitive I'd say that's a fair argument, but there are other pokemon that don't take much brainpower to use and get better results: Sd Scizor being a prime example.
The combination of Sableye and Goth undoubtedly shuts down certain teams, but that's no reason to ban them. A better alternative is to let the meta develop organically as counters to the strategy are definitely out there. For example a surprise sub on something can shut down sableye and cause havoc vs predicted Goth switches. To those who say Gothorita will see use if it's evolution is banned I have no words. Scarf Gothorita dies to scratch and eviolite has no purpose.
Basically the key is that if you use the kind of team this strategy is effective against, it's on you to have a reliable counter tactic. There are many similar cases in OU and pokemon in general so I'd advocate no ban.
Secondly is the perception that Sableye is overly bulky. It's actual overall bulk is comparable to things like Zard Y when you account for the awful HP. Obviously Rotom-w makes do but that is because of a far superior defensive typing. Sableye is dog food when faced with big offensive threats like Zard, Lopunny or Azumarill. These are obviously not the pokemon that Sableye is supposed to handle but the fact remains it's just not bulky enough to handle half decent offensive cores.
Finally many of the arguments put forward seem to suggest that only the player with sableye is capable of making predictions. The presence of a Magic Bounce pokemon has never been a total deterrent against setting up rocks or using status in general. Sableye switches are often easy to predict so a big hit or a suitable double can give you great momentum. If you have something like Skarmory on the field the double is actually so obvious that you probably will get rocks up.
As regards Gothitelle being easy to use and therefore uncompetitive I'd say that's a fair argument, but there are other pokemon that don't take much brainpower to use and get better results: Sd Scizor being a prime example.
The combination of Sableye and Goth undoubtedly shuts down certain teams, but that's no reason to ban them. A better alternative is to let the meta develop organically as counters to the strategy are definitely out there. For example a surprise sub on something can shut down sableye and cause havoc vs predicted Goth switches. To those who say Gothorita will see use if it's evolution is banned I have no words. Scarf Gothorita dies to scratch and eviolite has no purpose.
Basically the key is that if you use the kind of team this strategy is effective against, it's on you to have a reliable counter tactic. There are many similar cases in OU and pokemon in general so I'd advocate no ban.
I personally believe Gothitelle really needs to be banned, but M-Sableye should be 100 % not banned. M-Sab is without question a very potent force in OU and its existence has played the main part in why stall is viable in the meta-game. So while M-Sab can be defined as centralizing to some degree, unlike many suspects it actually widens the pool of viable Pokemon and play-styles in the meta-game. Therefore the way I see it is that unless M-Sab is clearly broken and too difficult to deal with in general then it should be kept in OU for the sake of maintaining a diverse tier. In fact I would go as far as saying that as long as M-Sab is not broken then it is healthy for the tier, as without this Pokemon spikes-HO would probably begin to run riot (as speculated by several individuals with lots of badges) and make the meta-game stale (it will be interesting to see if that's the case on the suspect ladder).
So with that said, is M-Sab broken? IMO absolutely not! While fully invested 50/125/115 bulk is certainly good (but not amazing) and its typing is great, its surprisingly easy to wear down even when you take magic-bounce into account. This is due to M-Sab being susceptible to all forms of hazards and once it goes Mega its speed becomes non-existent. This lack of speed makes it difficult to recover and not get overwhelmed by your opponent's wall-breaker/sweeper (heck nearly any mon in OU can finish him off when your HP gets too low). Also with scald being everywhere and other things like lava plume being about its not hard to give M-Sab a crippling status which means it cannot heal enough to keep itself alive long term. But the biggest reason why M-Sab is not broken is the abundance of wall-breakers that flat-out beat him and use this guy as set-up fodder. If you have Manaphy, M-Alt, Heatran, Talon (without foul play, but even with it M-Sab cannot always win), M-Zard Y (and to a lessor degree X), M-Garde, Serp, or Volc then M-Sab is quite helpless. Physical wall-breakers have a harder time, but M-Sab only needs to be at around 2/3 of its health for a hard physical hit to KO it which is easy to acomplish. And then there are all the super popular fairy types that cause M-Sab endless trouble. You don't need to force a specific Pokemon onto your team to get past M-Sab, there are plenty of things in OU that trouble this guy so the argument that he restricts team-building seems somewhat weak to me and only applies to hazard setting. But even then you have options such as Clef, M-Diance, Heatran, Klefki or any mold-breaker that can set hazards. M-Sab also has little offensive pressure (the calm mind set is not great as it takes ages to become remotely threatening) which means that all he can do is status you and remove your item, which means as long as you have a good cleric to keep your team healthy you have a good degree of freedom in how you play when M-sab is out.
So with all these Pokemon that can handle M-Sab and all the diversity this guy provides to OU it should absolutely not be banned. I would be so sad if he left OU and ORAS would be a far worse meta without him.
Goth on the other hand is just stupid and needs to go. Her ability to trap and remove/cripple your cleric (or hazard remover!) is what makes many of the M-Sab teams too much to handle. I remember many times playing against Goth stall using Balance teams and I was always able to hold my own against them until my cleric gets killed by Goth. Once that happens the remainder of your teams gets worn down and slowly killed off. Without Goth set-up sweepers (e.g Manaphy) would be more able to plow though the stall team and mons such as M-Sab would not be an issue. Goth is also not completely useless against offence as the scarf trick + 3 attacks can be used to pick off and revenge kill your opponent's mon with no hope of switching. Really Goth gives nothing beneficial to OU and only increases the un-competitiveness in the tier. Once its removed then M-Sab stall teams will still be a strong force in the meta, but not impossible to handle and there are plenty of Pokemon that can handle M-Sab themselves.
TL;DR M-Sableye is not broken but is good for OU as it adds diversity and keeps spikes-HO in check, Goth is cancer and should be banned.
PS. Would have liked to have seen Gothitelle being suspected and not S-tag as Wobb really is not unhealthy and becomes a casualty in all of this. But even with this setup I still vote ban on S-tag.
So with that said, is M-Sab broken? IMO absolutely not! While fully invested 50/125/115 bulk is certainly good (but not amazing) and its typing is great, its surprisingly easy to wear down even when you take magic-bounce into account. This is due to M-Sab being susceptible to all forms of hazards and once it goes Mega its speed becomes non-existent. This lack of speed makes it difficult to recover and not get overwhelmed by your opponent's wall-breaker/sweeper (heck nearly any mon in OU can finish him off when your HP gets too low). Also with scald being everywhere and other things like lava plume being about its not hard to give M-Sab a crippling status which means it cannot heal enough to keep itself alive long term. But the biggest reason why M-Sab is not broken is the abundance of wall-breakers that flat-out beat him and use this guy as set-up fodder. If you have Manaphy, M-Alt, Heatran, Talon (without foul play, but even with it M-Sab cannot always win), M-Zard Y (and to a lessor degree X), M-Garde, Serp, or Volc then M-Sab is quite helpless. Physical wall-breakers have a harder time, but M-Sab only needs to be at around 2/3 of its health for a hard physical hit to KO it which is easy to acomplish. And then there are all the super popular fairy types that cause M-Sab endless trouble. You don't need to force a specific Pokemon onto your team to get past M-Sab, there are plenty of things in OU that trouble this guy so the argument that he restricts team-building seems somewhat weak to me and only applies to hazard setting. But even then you have options such as Clef, M-Diance, Heatran, Klefki or any mold-breaker that can set hazards. M-Sab also has little offensive pressure (the calm mind set is not great as it takes ages to become remotely threatening) which means that all he can do is status you and remove your item, which means as long as you have a good cleric to keep your team healthy you have a good degree of freedom in how you play when M-sab is out.
So with all these Pokemon that can handle M-Sab and all the diversity this guy provides to OU it should absolutely not be banned. I would be so sad if he left OU and ORAS would be a far worse meta without him.
Goth on the other hand is just stupid and needs to go. Her ability to trap and remove/cripple your cleric (or hazard remover!) is what makes many of the M-Sab teams too much to handle. I remember many times playing against Goth stall using Balance teams and I was always able to hold my own against them until my cleric gets killed by Goth. Once that happens the remainder of your teams gets worn down and slowly killed off. Without Goth set-up sweepers (e.g Manaphy) would be more able to plow though the stall team and mons such as M-Sab would not be an issue. Goth is also not completely useless against offence as the scarf trick + 3 attacks can be used to pick off and revenge kill your opponent's mon with no hope of switching. Really Goth gives nothing beneficial to OU and only increases the un-competitiveness in the tier. Once its removed then M-Sab stall teams will still be a strong force in the meta, but not impossible to handle and there are plenty of Pokemon that can handle M-Sab themselves.
TL;DR M-Sableye is not broken but is good for OU as it adds diversity and keeps spikes-HO in check, Goth is cancer and should be banned.
PS. Would have liked to have seen Gothitelle being suspected and not S-tag as Wobb really is not unhealthy and becomes a casualty in all of this. But even with this setup I still vote ban on S-tag.
Just butting in here with a very broad and general addendum. Ideally, since bans are catered towards high-level players, we're talking (or at least should be talking) about scenarios where both players can predict with approximately equal success. With both Goth and MSab there is a difference though, coming back to the risk/reward thing, and I apologise if it's a bit cliched: You have to be lucky every time, the Sab/Goth player only has to be lucky once.
One counter-prediction or missed prediction (and they're hardly easy to avoid) and you've wasted a turn AND set hazards on yourself, or lost one of your Very Important Pokemon to Goth's trapping prowess. On the other side of the coin, the Sab player lets you get in an attack or a sub on something that probably wasn't a win condition, whoops, or the Goth player has to switch out again. It's not really an equal trade-off.
None of this is really important or anything I just wanted to mention it.
My issue with banning Shadow Tag is that, frankly, Wobb and Wynaut aren't broken with it, yes they can come in and take out threats but in general they do not centralize the metagame in any shape or form and it is purely the Goth family which is broken. Banning an entire ability based on one (family of) pokemon is nonsensical and would therefore mean that we should ban Speed Boost and allow Blaziken back into OU. It's a hugely slippery slope and one that I am not in favour for.
I do believe that Gothitelle should be banned however as it does remove competitiveness from the game and is centralizing in the fact that people are having to bring more niche sets in order to counter it, such as needing to run shed shell on Heatran, Togekiss or Manaphy; thus hindering their overall abilities and reducing diversity. Goth-stall is similar in some regards, issue wise, to the Baton Pass scene a few months ago, as although, yes, it is counterable, the fact that if you don't play to perfection or your team matchup isn't spot on to begin with meant that one wrong move was an autoloss for you. This in turn once again hugely restricts diversity within the game. The fact that teams are being made solely to prevent stall from running over them says numbers for the state of the metagame, because although good teambuilding should prepare for all archetypes, this level of pressure is unhealthy, and will often leave the user vulnerable to other playstyles (mainly HO). Ban Gothitelle and family.
Mega Sableye on the other hand I think is actually a fairly healthy part of the metagame, it allows stall to have a significant niche by not allowing stall teams to be overrun by hazards. The mon itself is not hugely overwhelming, set up mons such as Thunderus, Clefable, SD Garchomp, to name a few, can absolutely blast through it, with Garchomp and Clefable then being able to set up rocks either through forcing M-Sableye out or through fainting it.In addition, powerful wallbreakers such as Specs Sylveon, M-Gardevoir, M-Diancie, Char-Y can prevent this mon from switching in entirely or at least get a clean 2HKO. Furthermore, playing with M-Sableye as a hazard deflector is always a high risk situation because switching into Heatran, or Clefable predicting hazards, as there is always the chance you'll be attacked and unfortunately Sableye's low base speed means you're unlikely to recover later on in the game unless your opponent has a Ferrothorn or Skarmory in play. Overall, M-Sableye is not broken and was only becoming overpowering once Goth-stall became so popular. There's no doubt it's a defining force in the metagame with a hugh plethora of utility options as well as a hugely sturdy CM set, one which often gets forgotten about and can be quite devastating if unprepared. However without Goth and thus Goth-stall being a thing, Sablenite should stay OU.
I do believe that Gothitelle should be banned however as it does remove competitiveness from the game and is centralizing in the fact that people are having to bring more niche sets in order to counter it, such as needing to run shed shell on Heatran, Togekiss or Manaphy; thus hindering their overall abilities and reducing diversity. Goth-stall is similar in some regards, issue wise, to the Baton Pass scene a few months ago, as although, yes, it is counterable, the fact that if you don't play to perfection or your team matchup isn't spot on to begin with meant that one wrong move was an autoloss for you. This in turn once again hugely restricts diversity within the game. The fact that teams are being made solely to prevent stall from running over them says numbers for the state of the metagame, because although good teambuilding should prepare for all archetypes, this level of pressure is unhealthy, and will often leave the user vulnerable to other playstyles (mainly HO). Ban Gothitelle and family.
Mega Sableye on the other hand I think is actually a fairly healthy part of the metagame, it allows stall to have a significant niche by not allowing stall teams to be overrun by hazards. The mon itself is not hugely overwhelming, set up mons such as Thunderus, Clefable, SD Garchomp, to name a few, can absolutely blast through it, with Garchomp and Clefable then being able to set up rocks either through forcing M-Sableye out or through fainting it.In addition, powerful wallbreakers such as Specs Sylveon, M-Gardevoir, M-Diancie, Char-Y can prevent this mon from switching in entirely or at least get a clean 2HKO. Furthermore, playing with M-Sableye as a hazard deflector is always a high risk situation because switching into Heatran, or Clefable predicting hazards, as there is always the chance you'll be attacked and unfortunately Sableye's low base speed means you're unlikely to recover later on in the game unless your opponent has a Ferrothorn or Skarmory in play. Overall, M-Sableye is not broken and was only becoming overpowering once Goth-stall became so popular. There's no doubt it's a defining force in the metagame with a hugh plethora of utility options as well as a hugely sturdy CM set, one which often gets forgotten about and can be quite devastating if unprepared. However without Goth and thus Goth-stall being a thing, Sablenite should stay OU.
Dread Arceus
total cockhead
ORAS is a fantastic tier other than what bkc already pointed out, I'm tired of people hating on it because it's the "in" thing to do.
Anyways I personally would like to just ban stag, it's banned in lower tiers, previous gens, sent a mon to ubers in like a week of xy being out, and was even suspectedin a tier that won't suspect something with 82% usage. It's inherently overpowered simply because it guarantees a kill on something of the stag users choosing. As far as msab goes tho, it just doesn't seem that overwhelming to me without stag support
The thing about rocks clefable and lum sd chomp as being mons that can set up rocks vs msab is that they are sets specifically made as a result of mega sab stopping common stealth rock setters. Literally the only set out of those three that was remotely common on teams prior to mega sab exploding in popularity (specifically in the higher portions of the ladder) was rocks heatran, which gets fucked up by cm sets anyways, whereas the other two rock setters were pretty much unheard of before the rise of msab, so the centralization that it causes forces previously uncommon to sets just so that teams have a mon that can set rocks vs sableye. About your point about double switching, prediction goes both ways, so they can predict the incoming diancie and pivot out to their iron head spdef skarm or chansey in order to gain momentum, just saying.
I'm definitely biased for sableye. One time when showdown was down I went to check out pokemononline and saw that sableye was banned there. I just didn't play pokemon that day :/
Not being able to get up hazards against sableye unless you use fire, fairy, boosting, or mold breaker setters just means that the ability is working correctly. It can't set up hazards on its own, is set up fodder for many things, and is very passive against many pokemon in OU especially substitute users, all of which is why it's balanced.
Defensive teams have more HP investment than offensive teams. Hazards hurt them far far more. Chansey loses like 100 hp if it switches into 1 layer of spikes which is ridiculous <_< compared to a weavile who only loses 35 hp. The playstyle is on life support and sableye is one of maybe three other megas that hold it together.
Sableye has to switch into earthquakes and u-turns and stuff to do it's job against landorus and friends. It can get punished and worn down pretty severely and you get a free switch while it recovers. Every time a switch is in order for the stall player in order to preserve their sableye, is a chance to double and go to town with something like victini, hoopa, manaphy, gardevoir, charizard etc. You don't even need hazards up if you have something like a banded azumarill. Whatever eats that playrough will have to recover which is your turn to switch and launch ANOTHER free attack (or setup). And it certainly cannot spinblock offensive starmie and drill reliably. OU has seen an overall "slower but much MUCH more powerful" trend in the last few months and sableye teams definitely suffer.
I don't play stall with sableye anymore because goth can fuck it up so instead I've used it in my own style of semistall or balance where it really does a great job keeping hazards away for pokemon like rotom-h, togekiss, thunderus, tornadus, and other such pokes. But sometimes the opponent has something that can always get up rocks against sableye which means even though I'm supposed to block hazards, I STILL absolutely need a defogger on the team because of the aforementioned disparity between the effectiveness of hazards against stall compared with low-HP offensive mons.
Stall ends up being just as strapped for moveslots and using some niche sets. Defogger should be unafraid of bisharp +2 pursuit. Need cleric and it needs shed shell or voltturn/batonpass. Need to handle all the S and A ranks without necessarily saccing every single time. I don't know why people complain about a pokemon using a niche set that supposedly makes it useless against the meta as a whole. It's still a sac fodder mon you can use against keldeo or whatever. I personally use an emboar on my sableye "stall" team to set up sub on sableye and powerhouse with flare blitz/powerpunch/g-knot. It is very often worthless against the meta but it gives me a free fodder to use against hoopa or gardevoir. I don't... think it's bad... to use niche pokemon. If it's worthless you can use it for a free switch, or just get a hit in on turn 1, or maybe it's not as worthless as you think. I've had emboar eat up some scalds and earth powers plenty of times.
I get that some people might want to be able to spam battles and climb the ladder as fast as possible, and just sigh when they see stall teams. I panic too when I see sableye and both blobs. But I don't really complain about it, it's a true test to see how well my supposedly good team *actually* is. It's also supremely satisfying to 2hko something that naively switched in. If you want a faster game then just go play PU or another tier with terrible hazard control.
My opinion: don't ban sableye, on the fence about stag because wobb is balanced
Not being able to get up hazards against sableye unless you use fire, fairy, boosting, or mold breaker setters just means that the ability is working correctly. It can't set up hazards on its own, is set up fodder for many things, and is very passive against many pokemon in OU especially substitute users, all of which is why it's balanced.
Defensive teams have more HP investment than offensive teams. Hazards hurt them far far more. Chansey loses like 100 hp if it switches into 1 layer of spikes which is ridiculous <_< compared to a weavile who only loses 35 hp. The playstyle is on life support and sableye is one of maybe three other megas that hold it together.
Sableye has to switch into earthquakes and u-turns and stuff to do it's job against landorus and friends. It can get punished and worn down pretty severely and you get a free switch while it recovers. Every time a switch is in order for the stall player in order to preserve their sableye, is a chance to double and go to town with something like victini, hoopa, manaphy, gardevoir, charizard etc. You don't even need hazards up if you have something like a banded azumarill. Whatever eats that playrough will have to recover which is your turn to switch and launch ANOTHER free attack (or setup). And it certainly cannot spinblock offensive starmie and drill reliably. OU has seen an overall "slower but much MUCH more powerful" trend in the last few months and sableye teams definitely suffer.
I don't play stall with sableye anymore because goth can fuck it up so instead I've used it in my own style of semistall or balance where it really does a great job keeping hazards away for pokemon like rotom-h, togekiss, thunderus, tornadus, and other such pokes. But sometimes the opponent has something that can always get up rocks against sableye which means even though I'm supposed to block hazards, I STILL absolutely need a defogger on the team because of the aforementioned disparity between the effectiveness of hazards against stall compared with low-HP offensive mons.
Stall ends up being just as strapped for moveslots and using some niche sets. Defogger should be unafraid of bisharp +2 pursuit. Need cleric and it needs shed shell or voltturn/batonpass. Need to handle all the S and A ranks without necessarily saccing every single time. I don't know why people complain about a pokemon using a niche set that supposedly makes it useless against the meta as a whole. It's still a sac fodder mon you can use against keldeo or whatever. I personally use an emboar on my sableye "stall" team to set up sub on sableye and powerhouse with flare blitz/powerpunch/g-knot. It is very often worthless against the meta but it gives me a free fodder to use against hoopa or gardevoir. I don't... think it's bad... to use niche pokemon. If it's worthless you can use it for a free switch, or just get a hit in on turn 1, or maybe it's not as worthless as you think. I've had emboar eat up some scalds and earth powers plenty of times.
I get that some people might want to be able to spam battles and climb the ladder as fast as possible, and just sigh when they see stall teams. I panic too when I see sableye and both blobs. But I don't really complain about it, it's a true test to see how well my supposedly good team *actually* is. It's also supremely satisfying to 2hko something that naively switched in. If you want a faster game then just go play PU or another tier with terrible hazard control.
My opinion: don't ban sableye, on the fence about stag because wobb is balanced
I don't mind Sableye-Mega, as it really is nowhere near broken, annoying as shit, yes, but not broken, especially with Clefable appearing in virtually once out of every two games you play. Pairing Sableye with a cancerous Pokemon like Goth is the real issue here. Shadow Tag ruins OU and should be banned.
Together, we can beat cancer.
Together, we can beat cancer.
Nice suspect there, I was tired of facing all those Gothitelle Stall haha.
Regarding Shadow Tag I think that this trait should have been "insta-banned" due to his uncompetitive nature and for its "ease of use", you don't need any skill to use it (except if the opponent has a Tyranitar/Pursuitter or if your stallbreaker has Shed Shell (NJNP's Anti-Stall is a clear example but it was specifically created to "counterteam" the Goth Stall), but as ABR already said neither Shadow Tag nor 50/50s are healthy for the metagame) as you just switch into the Pokèmon you want to trap and effortlessy kill or trap it, BAN.
As concerns Mega-Sableye, I think he is a centralizing force in the current metagame due to his typing and traits before and after Mega-Evolving.
Thanks to Prankster you can keep him unevolved if your opponent is running an offensive team with a specific physical sweeper who threats your team like Pinsir or evolve him if you are facing Stall/Balance and you want to prevent hazards. Plus, against him the two most common spiker cannot be used (Skarmory and Ferrothorn) for obvious reasons.
Stealth Rocks are a bit easier to use against Sableye but some of the SR users still struggle against him, the only two who can set up rocks are Heatran (can easily kill Sab if running MS or burn him if running a more defensive set) and Clefable (even if SR Clef isn't that used because CM Set is more powerful).
With that said, I think Sablenite should be banned too in order to make the teambuilding less centralized, BAN.
This is my first "analysis" so sorry if I made some mistakes haha, good luck in the ladder.
Regarding Shadow Tag I think that this trait should have been "insta-banned" due to his uncompetitive nature and for its "ease of use", you don't need any skill to use it (except if the opponent has a Tyranitar/Pursuitter or if your stallbreaker has Shed Shell (NJNP's Anti-Stall is a clear example but it was specifically created to "counterteam" the Goth Stall), but as ABR already said neither Shadow Tag nor 50/50s are healthy for the metagame) as you just switch into the Pokèmon you want to trap and effortlessy kill or trap it, BAN.
As concerns Mega-Sableye, I think he is a centralizing force in the current metagame due to his typing and traits before and after Mega-Evolving.
Thanks to Prankster you can keep him unevolved if your opponent is running an offensive team with a specific physical sweeper who threats your team like Pinsir or evolve him if you are facing Stall/Balance and you want to prevent hazards. Plus, against him the two most common spiker cannot be used (Skarmory and Ferrothorn) for obvious reasons.
Stealth Rocks are a bit easier to use against Sableye but some of the SR users still struggle against him, the only two who can set up rocks are Heatran (can easily kill Sab if running MS or burn him if running a more defensive set) and Clefable (even if SR Clef isn't that used because CM Set is more powerful).
With that said, I think Sablenite should be banned too in order to make the teambuilding less centralized, BAN.
This is my first "analysis" so sorry if I made some mistakes haha, good luck in the ladder.
Having a slower game isn't exactly why we want to ban mega sab/stag, it's because they are inherently uncompetitive when used in tandem with one another. There is nothing competitive of having 20 turns literally spent on pp stalling something when the user opposing gothtitelle has no choice in the matter, and the fact that the ability shadow tag takes away one of the core aspects of competitive battling in switching with little to no skill required to take out said mon is literally uncompetitive by the very definition that we have laid out in the framework posted by Aldaron: II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
Mega-Sableye:
I followed with disappointment the thread on Policy Review because honestly the idea of a Sablenite test makes me laugh. I don't want to sound arrogant but the fact that people require this kind of tests goes to show how the new kids generation of pokemon is completely clueless on how to prepare and play against a defensive team, despite the last two generations gave us an incredible power creep and plenty of ways to break through cores.
Yes I am an intensive Sableye player and because of that I know that the statement for which Sableye is difficult to break without resorting to obscure unviable sets is blatantly false.
Among the viable things that threaten to lay Stealth Rock while 2hoking Sableye or putting status on it we have non-bulky Lando, Heatran (any set really), SD Chomper (a well played bulky Chomp can also be an hassle thanks to D-tail), Clefable, Mold Breaker Exca, I'm sure there are more.
What people fail to comprehend is that the blessing of Magic Bounce comes at the price of the loss of Prankster, which is reasonably exploitable. No more Prankster means that the Sableye player has to costantly keep his guy healthy, as sending in a weakened Sableye will probably result in a 2hko cause no more +1 Recover and WoW. This in turn can be exploited by the opponent by switching into a threat and gain momentum.
Many times I was put in a position where I had to sac a mon cause I couldn't risk to switch Sableye in straight away.
I would be all for a ban if Sableye could have both the abilities, that would be fcking ridicolous.
If anything, the reason for which some defensive Sableye team are very difficult to break without the use of gimmicks and shitty unviable sets is not Sableye itself but rather Gotithelle
So no ban (lol)
Gotithelle
Let's be honest, any mon with some kind of offensive capability is uncompetitive when coupled with Shadow Tag. Uncompetitive in my book means: something with little or no counterplay (having to make an insane amount of correct double switches and win a lot of mindgames falls into this category) which prevents your opponent to develop his game forcing an important hole in his team or an unavoidable sweep.
Gotithelle has the movepool and the stats to be absolutely retarded with Shadow Tag. Wobbu is tolerated because it's a passive piece of shit and relatively easy to play around. Other trapping mons like Dugtrio and Magnezone, although toxic in my opinion cause they reward lazy teambuilding and dull play, are tolerable cause situational and selective.
So in my opinion the way to go here would be to ban Goti but if you want to ban Shadow Tag altogether that's fine too I guess
I followed with disappointment the thread on Policy Review because honestly the idea of a Sablenite test makes me laugh. I don't want to sound arrogant but the fact that people require this kind of tests goes to show how the new kids generation of pokemon is completely clueless on how to prepare and play against a defensive team, despite the last two generations gave us an incredible power creep and plenty of ways to break through cores.
Yes I am an intensive Sableye player and because of that I know that the statement for which Sableye is difficult to break without resorting to obscure unviable sets is blatantly false.
Among the viable things that threaten to lay Stealth Rock while 2hoking Sableye or putting status on it we have non-bulky Lando, Heatran (any set really), SD Chomper (a well played bulky Chomp can also be an hassle thanks to D-tail), Clefable, Mold Breaker Exca, I'm sure there are more.
What people fail to comprehend is that the blessing of Magic Bounce comes at the price of the loss of Prankster, which is reasonably exploitable. No more Prankster means that the Sableye player has to costantly keep his guy healthy, as sending in a weakened Sableye will probably result in a 2hko cause no more +1 Recover and WoW. This in turn can be exploited by the opponent by switching into a threat and gain momentum.
Many times I was put in a position where I had to sac a mon cause I couldn't risk to switch Sableye in straight away.
I would be all for a ban if Sableye could have both the abilities, that would be fcking ridicolous.
If anything, the reason for which some defensive Sableye team are very difficult to break without the use of gimmicks and shitty unviable sets is not Sableye itself but rather Gotithelle
So no ban (lol)
Gotithelle
Let's be honest, any mon with some kind of offensive capability is uncompetitive when coupled with Shadow Tag. Uncompetitive in my book means: something with little or no counterplay (having to make an insane amount of correct double switches and win a lot of mindgames falls into this category) which prevents your opponent to develop his game forcing an important hole in his team or an unavoidable sweep.
Gotithelle has the movepool and the stats to be absolutely retarded with Shadow Tag. Wobbu is tolerated because it's a passive piece of shit and relatively easy to play around. Other trapping mons like Dugtrio and Magnezone, although toxic in my opinion cause they reward lazy teambuilding and dull play, are tolerable cause situational and selective.
So in my opinion the way to go here would be to ban Goti but if you want to ban Shadow Tag altogether that's fine too I guess
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