np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]

[TM13IceBeam]

Yare yare...

I am so disappointed how you guys are bitching about another competitive pokemon.
Doesnt it remind you a bit of aegislash? ^^ Changing Type / Changing Form? No? well maybe its just me^^

ANYWAYS lets get to the real shit.
Does Greninja need to go to uber?

My answer is no.

Upsides to Greninja:

-THE POTENTIAL for excellent STAB coverage (which you all should have noticed by now)
-There is no counter to this pokemon
-Ways of countering enemy moves by changing type (which is very risky tho)

Downsides to Greninja:

-Can switch in as bad as the enemy can switch out IF NOT EVEN WORSE
-Loses to choice scarfed pokemon
-Loses to neutral priority after LO and SR in OU
-Gets worn down quickly (no recovery, life orb recoil, SR are neutral)
-Can not run : Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Gunk Shot, Grass Knot, Low Kick, Extrasensory, Dark Pulse, Hidden Power Fire, Shadow Sneak, Spikes, U-turn, Rock Slide;

WHAT DO YOU NEED TO TO BEAT GRENINJA?

Lets assume you have Stealth Rocks up wich you usually have.

Some examples of what I figured out I could do on a team I did not even THINK OF GRENINJA in my teambuilding:

-Switch in Choice Scarf Keldeo into a predicted ice beam / hydro pump / gunk shot / low kick / shadow sneak / spikes / hidden power whatever.. LET IT TAKE LO DAMAGE and klick hydro. GG

-Switch in Life Orb Bisharp into a predicted ice beam / gunk shot / ... LET IT TAKE LO DAMAGE and klick sucker punch. GG

HOW DO YOU GET TO KNOW WHAT MOVESET GRENINJA IS RUNNING?

Scouting.

Since only Ice Beam and Gunk Shot are on every Greninja and if the enemy Greninja is running extrasensory HE DOES NOT EXPECT YOU TO KNOW THAT!!!
So if you have the matchup KELDEO VS GRENINJA there are 2 things he can do:
1. Klick Extrasensory (if you are scarfed you could just klick secret sword...) = He has Extrasensory ->>> you need to scout for 1 more move
2. Switch out = He has no Extrasensory ->>> your keldeo will fuck his greninja
There is no way he will go for ice beam / w.e. since extrasensory is not that common on ninja and he will try to kill you with this surprise factor.

SO NOW YOU CAN EASY SWITCH IN SOMETHING IMMUNE OR RESISTANT TO PSYCHIC AND SCOUT FOR EXTRASENSORY!

As addition if you are bisharp you can klick sucker punch now and either force it out which will force it to switch in again and greninja hates switching in or will kill it.
You could also go for sword dance if you think he predicts you to sucker punch and sweep from there ^^

That all being said I think Greninja is a very good mon in OU and can beat inexperienced people by itself however if you get higher on the ladder you can play around it and it does not deserve a bann.

ok fuck eye cancer pls

on a serious note you forget one thing: greninja user can switch out, because Keldeo and bisharp can't trap greninja: nothing is stopping greninja from switching out to a keldeo/bisharp counter (and in the case of bisharp, it gets a free switch because sucker punch does shit, gg)

also this does not take into account that the 'scouting' is not something that can be done at zero cost, and often the cost of scouting is too much for balanced teams to handle because greninja literally can 2hko the entire tier with stealth rocks up except for chansey and porygon2.

playing around it isn't even that easy, considering that not every offense team is capable of running chansey (correction, i mean, all of them). choice scarf isnt even that hard to deduce lmao

EDIT: I also have a question for you. What do you do when you see a charizard? Tell me one mon that can switch in and beat him 1v1 but I will be able to chose what kind of charizard it is since people always do that with greninja too and you have to scout for charizard sets as well.

 

[Norne]

NOOBS DON'T UNDERSTAND THE META.WE DON'T WANT EVERYTHING TO GET BANNED IN OU AND THEN BECOME USELESS IN UBERS!!

HE SHOULD NOT BE BANNED!

Insulting people would get you as far as a 10 pesos coin in New York if you want to ride a cab.

It's irrelevant how a pokemon fares in the tier it's being moved to as long as it's considered an unhealthy piece on the meta he was banned from.

Also adapting, is different from facing a threat to all team archetypes that limits the usage of pokemon during teambuilding. I refuse to use a shed shell umbreon just to avoid getting uturned into a goth supporting a Greninja and random set up mega.

Honestly start seeing ninja as an assassin to checks and you'll see how broken this thing can get. Instead of rising fallacies of adapting when the enemy team has that option as well.

When unorthodox unviable spreads are used, items that hinder viability of sets in attempts to preserve team integrity(LOL assault vest tentacruel and gyarados) , and Pokemon's are sacked in a hopeless attempt to revenge kill on top of forcing uneficient pokemon species on terms that have to sacrifice not only utility but momentum one can say a pokemon has become cancerous for its metagame. Greninja just became that.

Revenge killing scrub jokes asides my vote is for ban. And with extreme prejudice.

 

[TheInsanity]

Banning Greninja is dumb. No seriously.
The Meta just needs to adapt to it and not just ban a Pokemon because it makes a Play style unviable. Heracross made stall pretty much unviable in X and Y and yet it wasn't banned!!!

Thundurus: a decent Pokemon that was slightly over powered but never got suspected.. The meta just adapted to it.

Mega Slowbro: Seriously? This set up defensive Pokemon could literally 6-0 teams just by coming in because of the match up. The Meta Adapted yet again, NP Celebii became more viable as did electric types.

In other words, we shouldn't ban Greninja. The Meta just needs to adapt.
See, things like Tentacruel and Empoleon and Porygon2 wouldn't really be run if Greninja wasn't around. Greninja being around helps create diversity in the metagame. Just adapt!

The meta cannot adopt to greninja. Even mola is rekted by grass knot, chansey by low kick. Even without thinking about counter and checks, what we should play? 6 scarf mons in every team for that thing? Or a team with only priority moves?
Tentacruel is rekt by extrasensory, empoleon by low kick and pory2 simply sucks. Also after greninja, a team should be able to check the 90% of the OU list, and this is impossible, wasting a slot only for a pokemon.

Mega slowbro cannot set up if any electric or grass type of the opponent is alive, also taunt, and in any case slowbro requires set up, which is different from greninja. We are talking about 2 typing that counter a pokemon, and u don't wanna greninja ban because pory2? Are u kidding me?

Thundurus is walled by a lot of things, electric in general (no rotom-w), clefable, sylveon are not 2khoed by tbolt, even better if is the mixed set. Mega venusaur also was another pokemon able to take a tbolt even with a +6 thundurbolt. The ground type was immune to the thundurus‘s main stab, is a little different from greninja.

 

[sogneh]

There are a lot of stupid posts...
"I should not be forced to run one or two checks to a particular Pokemon"...ok now, this is just silly. You are supposed to have checks to everything that is commonly used. Greninja is not special in this regard, if you have no checks to Talonflame you get swept too.
"Greninja has no counters besides Porygon2 because it might be running the appropriate coverage for it".
You know what else has no counters because it might be running the appropriate coverage and you might get bopped on the switch in? Show me a counter to Mew and I'll show you how its not based on Mew's super movepool...in fact, Greninja is probably more predictable, you can look at their team and judge their coverage normally, or even use risk/reward to choose a mon to sac. Since they prob have to sac to get Greninja in as well.

 

[Norne]

There are a lot of stupid posts...
"I should not be forced to run one or two checks to a particular Pokemon"...ok now, this is just silly. You are supposed to have checks to everything that is commonly used. Greninja is not special in this regard, if you have no checks to Talonflame you get swept too.
"Greninja has no counters besides Porygon2 because it might be running the appropriate coverage for it".
You know what else has no counters because it might be running the appropriate coverage and you might get bopped on the switch in? Show me a counter to Mew and I'll show you how its not based on Mew's super movepool...in fact, Greninja is probably more predictable, you can look at their team and judge their coverage normally, or even use risk/reward to choose a mon to sac. Since they prob have to sac to get Greninja in as well.

100 base speed is not what it used to be, it's bulk is cool, but offensively loads of stuff laugh on him unless you want to use focus punch icebeam fireblast Taunt mew with lo, and even there he can't deal enough damage due to it lacking powerful stab, wich Greninja has. Your attempt was funny but even with all the moves mew has it can't put its weight as a winning condition offensively, or winning condition removal for the opponent team as Greninja.

Educate yourself a bit before posting nonsensical comparisons.

And yep Greninja has a 2MSS,meaning it's moves depend on what it team wants to eliminate, chances are that you will be at high risk of using a Greninja answer that needs to be preserved when it has all the team build up to potentially have that one move you don't want to switch into. Scouting for Greninja, even with prediction is a rather hard thing to achieve. Making him such a high risk low return pokemon that on most team building process people end up asking themselves why not Msalame....err Greninja, yes I went there he puts a similar stress on the building process Salamence or superglue aegislash(Polemical I agree) did and that's one of the main reasons it needs to get out of OU.

Unless you are lazy and want to see the same thing over and over because you like to use low risk high reward tools, there is almost no reason to defend cancer frog.

 

[Alexey]

There are a lot of stupid posts...
"I should not be forced to run one or two checks to a particular Pokemon"...ok now, this is just silly. You are supposed to have checks to everything that is commonly used. Greninja is not special in this regard, if you have no checks to Talonflame you get swept too. (1)
"Greninja has no counters besides Porygon2 because it might be running the appropriate coverage for it".
You know what else has no counters because it might be running the appropriate coverage and you might get bopped on the switch in? Show me a counter to Mew and I'll show you how its not based on Mew's super movepool... (2)in fact, Greninja is probably more predictable, you can look at their team and judge their coverage normally, (3) or even use risk/reward to choose a mon to sac (4). Since they prob have to sac to get Greninja in as well.(5)

I respectully disagree.

1) First of all, Porygon2 is the only thing that can properly check Greninja (being its only counter). All other checks are either Chansey or move-conditional. That's why Greninja wasn't such a problem in XY - you switched Clefables, AV Azumarills, Sylveons, sometimes even Empoleons into it. Now you don't, now they are KOed by appropriate coverage moves, and are all outsped, so they don't check it. Basically, by that logic, every single team in OU must run Porygon2 (I admit, it's fun running P2 stall and haxing people with Tri Attacks, but P2 isn't much good apart from that)
2) Mew doesn't get STAB on everything and doesn't have base 122 speed. If it did, it would have been the exact same thing that Greninja is right now
3) You can't. You know it's running Ice Beam and Gunk Shot, other two slots are perfect toss-ups. Also note that even with Greninja being a thing there is absolutely no way any team could handle each and every threat equally - so there really isn't a way of knowing if the specific Greninja is running, say Extrasensory+Low Kick or HP Fire+Dark Pulse (something will be less "checked" by the entire team in any case).
4) a) This can only be used for scouting purposes, which isn't even often needed. Even if you know the moves the Gren you're facing is running, you still have to pretty much guess which one will it go for
b) Since these risk/rewards are so stupidly in Greninja's favor, it's an argument for banning it, not against it
5) Slow Volt-Turn is also the way to go, so it's not always about saccing.

 

[BCE]

you guys that are voting for ban, what is the list of pokemons that will rise in usage / change moveset / become usable ?

aegislash erased the existence of mega gardevoir, starmie, mega heracross and forced lots of things to run earthquake. THIS is overcentralizing.

mega lucario erased stall teams. THIS is overcentralizing.

mega salamence forced you use greninja with scarf, weavile and mamoswine to use ice shard and MAYBE kill. THIS is overcentralizing.

greninja is very good. and that is it. He is OU since XY and he hadnt become a total new level of overpower just because of the super condicional low kick or terrible Acc gunk shot, 2 physical attacks to add to his enormous 4 mss that are almost 100% special attacks.

Other thing, there are some people saying he doesnt have 4mss, a example:

Volcarona: timid / modest
-Fiery dance
-quiver dance
-roost / hurricane
-giga drain / bug buzz

Greninja: Timid / jolly

-Water shuriken / waterfall / scald / surf / hydro pump
-Nightslash / dark pulse / extrasensory / grass knot
- Ice beam / ice punch / taunt / spike / shadow sneak
- power up punch / low kick / gunk shot / u turn / HP Fire / acrobatics ( when flying gem be released )

yeah, i think he is the pokemon with the most severe 4mss.

When someone build a team, most probably he is thinking about how to deal with talonflame, heatran, chansey, skarmory, mega zards, thundurus. Greninja is not overcentralizing at all.

DONT BAN

 

[TheInsanity]

There are a lot of stupid posts...
"I should not be forced to run one or two checks to a particular Pokemon"...ok now, this is just silly. You are supposed to have checks to everything that is commonly used. Greninja is not special in this regard, if you have no checks to Talonflame you get swept too.
"Greninja has no counters besides Porygon2 because it might be running the appropriate coverage for it".
You know what else has no counters because it might be running the appropriate coverage and you might get bopped on the switch in? Show me a counter to Mew and I'll show you how its not based on Mew's super movepool...in fact, Greninja is probably more predictable, you can look at their team and judge their coverage normally, or even use risk/reward to choose a mon to sac. Since they prob have to sac to get Greninja in as well.

Mew has 100 atk/satk, 100 speed and no protean (and a real offensive ability) So lacks of a lot of power for do what greninja do. So this example has no sense at all.

Yeah, greninja is predictable, but for this is hard to check him. Virtually only pory2 can switch on him. If i send empoleon against him, he can probably run low kick, and kill. Low kick - become fighting type. I can send my talonflame to revenge kill.
The opponent knows how to play, switch greninja for rotom. I sacked my only greninja check, the opponent's greninja is alive.

This is how normally players play. This even depends if is midgame or lategame, but greninja didn't require set up, so this can happen even in the early game

This is just an example, but u can understand how problematic is that pokemon. Why use in every team pory2?

 

[Norne]

you guys that are voting for ban, what is the list of pokemons that will rise in usage / change moveset / become usable ?

aegislash erased the existence of mega gardevoir, starmie, mega heracross and forced lots of things to run earthquake. THIS is overcentralizing.

mega lucario erased stall teams. THIS is overcentralizing.

mega salamence forced you use greninja with scarf, weavile and mamoswine to use ice shard and MAYBE kill. THIS is overcentralizing.

greninja is very good. and that is it. He is OU since XY and he hadnt become a total new level of overpower just because of the super condicional low kick or terrible Acc gunk shot, 2 physical attacks to add to his enormous 4 mss that are almost 100% special attacks.

Other thing, there are some people saying he doesnt have 4mss, a example:

Volcarona: timid / modest
-Fiery dance
-quiver dance
-roost / hurricane
-giga drain / bug buzz

Greninja: Timid / jolly

-Water shuriken / waterfall / scald / surf / hydro pump
-Nightslash / dark pulse / extrasensory / grass knot
- Ice beam / ice punch / taunt / spike / shadow sneak
- power up punch / low kick / gunk shot / u turn / HP Fire / acrobatics ( when flying gem be released )

yeah, i think he is the pokemon with the most severe 4mss.

When someone build a team, most probably he is thinking about how to deal with talonflame, heatran, chansey, skarmory, mega zards, thundurus. Greninja is not overcentralizing at all.

DONT BAN

The moment you list water shrunken and scald as first slot options is the moment you lost all credibility, complaining about poison gunk accuracy is just a weak argument, as it's a viable tool that nets him 2hkos and 1hkos with viable spreads that don't compromise it's role. To boot it gets stab on it something pokemon that run focus miss don't, or those who rely on Stone miss as a coverage option/stab.

Greninja 4 MSS is a big lie as he only needs 2 moves to be effective while the other 2 are chosen on your team needs.

Get your facts together then post again.

 

[benjamin4321]

you guys that are voting for ban, what is the list of pokemons that will rise in usage / change moveset / become usable ?

aegislash erased the existence of mega gardevoir, starmie, mega heracross and forced lots of things to run earthquake. THIS is overcentralizing.

mega lucario erased stall teams. THIS is overcentralizing.

mega salamence forced you use greninja with scarf, weavile and mamoswine to use ice shard and MAYBE kill. THIS is overcentralizing.

greninja is very good. and that is it. He is OU since XY and he hadnt become a total new level of overpower just because of the super condicional low kick or terrible Acc gunk shot, 2 physical attacks to add to his enormous 4 mss that are almost 100% special attacks.

Other thing, there are some people saying he doesnt have 4mss, a example:

Volcarona: timid / modest
-Fiery dance
-quiver dance
-roost / hurricane
-giga drain / bug buzz

Greninja: Timid / jolly

-Water shuriken / waterfall / scald / surf / hydro pump
-Nightslash / dark pulse / extrasensory / grass knot
- Ice beam / ice punch / taunt / spike / shadow sneak
- power up punch / low kick / gunk shot / u turn / HP Fire / acrobatics ( when flying gem be released )

yeah, i think he is the pokemon with the most severe 4mss.

When someone build a team, most probably he is thinking about how to deal with talonflame, heatran, chansey, skarmory, mega zards, thundurus. Greninja is not overcentralizing at all.

DONT BAN

I suggest reading through the thread from the beginning because there has been a response to every single "point" you tried to make

 

[Master B8s]

Banning Greninja is dumb. No seriously.
The Meta just needs to adapt to it and not just ban a Pokemon because it makes a Play style unviable. Heracross made stall pretty much unviable in X and Y and yet it wasn't banned!!!

Thundurus: a decent Pokemon that was slightly over powered but never got suspected.. The meta just adapted to it.

Mega Slowbro: Seriously? This set up defensive Pokemon could literally 6-0 teams just by coming in because of the match up. The Meta Adapted yet again, NP Celebii became more viable as did electric types.

In other words, we shouldn't ban Greninja. The Meta just needs to adapt.
See, things like Tentacruel and Empoleon and Porygon2 wouldn't really be run if Greninja wasn't around. Greninja being around helps create diversity in the metagame. Just adapt!

Ok for starters greninja adapts to the metagame. Whatever threat is most common, greninja will start running the right coverage move. Tentacruel becoming more common? Extrasensory. Empoleon? Run low kick. Heracross isn't comparable to greninja cause M-cross shitted on stall, but struggled against offense and sometimes balanced. This made heracross either a win condition or a liability. Greninja does not struggle with the 3 apart from maybe stall and will put in some kind of work regardless. Thunderus stopped set up sweepers, he didn't sweep through offense and balance single handedly. Mega bro was adapted to, but it has other sets lol. Slack off+3 attacks is a great set that isn't a set up attacker. You pretty much needed a taunt user or phazer to stop it.
Your diversity argument is bs cause those pokemon are worthless outside of checking greninja. Which is the point, greninja being banned would get rid of those pokemon being in the tier because that one specific niche they had is gone.

 

[AM]

you guys that are voting for ban, what is the list of pokemons that will rise in usage / change moveset / become usable ?

aegislash erased the existence of mega gardevoir, starmie, mega heracross and forced lots of things to run earthquake. THIS is overcentralizing.

mega lucario erased stall teams. THIS is overcentralizing.

mega salamence forced you use greninja with scarf, weavile and mamoswine to use ice shard and MAYBE kill. THIS is overcentralizing.

greninja is very good. and that is it. He is OU since XY and he hadnt become a total new level of overpower just because of the super condicional low kick or terrible Acc gunk shot, 2 physical attacks to add to his enormous 4 mss that are almost 100% special attacks.

Other thing, there are some people saying he doesnt have 4mss, a example:

Volcarona: timid / modest
-Fiery dance
-quiver dance
-roost / hurricane
-giga drain / bug buzz

Greninja: Timid / jolly

-Water shuriken / waterfall / scald / surf / hydro pump
-Nightslash / dark pulse / extrasensory / grass knot
- Ice beam / ice punch / taunt / spike / shadow sneak
- power up punch / low kick / gunk shot / u turn / HP Fire / acrobatics ( when flying gem be released )

yeah, i think he is the pokemon with the most severe 4mss.

When someone build a team, most probably he is thinking about how to deal with talonflame, heatran, chansey, skarmory, mega zards, thundurus. Greninja is not overcentralizing at all.

DONT BAN

Low Kick and Gunk Shot are not super conditional as they have become standards with legitimate usage. Volcarona doesn't run Hurricane because that is absolutely garbage, falls under a lower speed tier with dependency on its boosting move, and your slashes on the movesets are simply all over the place with stuff that is not even used or in the wrong place. When you build a team you would take all that into account including Greninja. Implying that Greninja runs Power Up Punch is clearly obvious that you don't have enough experience or understanding to even comment at this issue at hand. I know Celticpride asked me to do this earlier and I wasn't really inclined to but reading this lack of understanding of what 4MSS is in regards to how people think it's bad and how this is a negative for Greninja has been murdering my vision and sanity. This is my take only so take it or leave it just know I'm speaking from my own personal views with this quote.

4MSS only applies if the loss of a move makes it walled by a significant portion of the meta. If it's a 4MSS to the point where it's only a couple of singular threats in the case of something like greninja, where it also has plenty of pros such as speed and versatility to overlook that negative, then it can only be weighted so much if it requires a higher amount of team support.

So no 4MSS is not a legitimate case as much as people would like to think. The support to cover what is missing is so minimal that from a bigger perspective in how it adapts to the meta, how teams try to adapt to Greninja, and the low opportunity cost from a practical and team-building standpoint that these teams with Greninja benefit from, I'm more inclined to say it's not healthy and is halting the progression of OU.

 

[Raikaria]

Banning Greninja is dumb. No seriously.
The Meta just needs to adapt to it and not just ban a Pokemon because it makes a Play style unviable. Heracross made stall pretty much unviable in X and Y and yet it wasn't banned!!!

Thundurus: a decent Pokemon that was slightly over powered but never got suspected.. The meta just adapted to it.

Mega Slowbro: Seriously? This set up defensive Pokemon could literally 6-0 teams just by coming in because of the match up. The Meta Adapted yet again, NP Celebii became more viable as did electric types.

In other words, we shouldn't ban Greninja. The Meta just needs to adapt.
See, things like Tentacruel and Empoleon and Porygon2 wouldn't really be run if Greninja wasn't around. Greninja being around helps create diversity in the metagame. Just adapt!

No, what made stall not work in X/Y was general powercreep; Knock Off's buff and the fact that most Megas are offensive powerhouses [Only Aggron, Steelix and Audino can be argued as real defensive Megas. And of those only Aggron is usable in OU at all]. Mega Heracross wrecks stall, yes, but it isn't the reason Stall is in the state it was. And besides, Stall has been, for the most part, dead since Gen 5 because of the power of weather in that meta. [I'm not going into my opinions on Gen 5's path, that's an entirely different topic] X/Y gave a lot to offense but next to nothing to stall. There isn't even a usable stall pokemon in OU from Gen 6. At least Gen 5 gave Ferrothorn.

And Greninja was adapted to... before it gained Gunk Shot and Low Kick, which ruin the few things which could check it safely before. The OR/AS ladder has been up for quite a while before the games ever came out, not long after the demo was datamined. There has been more than enough time to adapt to such a game-warping pokemon as Greninja.

I'll draw a parralell to Gen 4 Salamence. Each set has it's own checks and counters, yes. But you have no way of knowing what set it is running, and it thus makes it near impossible to counter. And unlike Salamence, who was pretty well shut down in Gen 4 by Porygon2 regardless of set, nothing shuts down all Greninja sets. Nothing.

Not to mention even once you figure out Greninja's set, it's still suffering the same guessing game issue as Mega Mawile, or even Ageislash created. High power + that sort of mindgame power banned Salamence in Gen 4 and Mega Mawile/Ageislash in Gen 6.

Greninja:
- Has no true counter; it is fast and basically has the ability to 2HKO the entire meta
- Is incredibly risky to predict; even if you know it's set
- Has the power; speed and coverage to easily perform as a lategame cleaner
- Punishes any misprediction or incorrect guess about the set with a KO; if not more.

All the power is with the person with Greninja. The one downside to Greninja is that it is frail, and thus is somewhat difficult to switch in... except Dark/Water is actually an acceptable defensive typing, if only for the boons of the Water-type in general.

I mean this is a pokemon so unpredictable that it doesn't even have to run it's usual STAB moves and can still wreck things. It can be physical or special as well while doing this.

Yes; Greninja cannot run everything simultaneously. But that dosen't change the fact that you don't know what it IS running until it is too late.

 

[Kabuchops]

In this thread diversity clearly means gimmicky pokemon or sets to the meta. What I'm talking about here is the sad legitimacy of focus sash Latias with dual screens. When I asked that guy why he was doing that he said: Greninja

 

[TM13IceBeam]

i think what many are forgetting that due to greninja's ad-infinitum coverage options, it can potentially 2hko nearly the entire meta with stealth rock up. this is big because it means that while greninja is easy to wear down, it also means that greninja can act as somewhat of a pseudo-wallbreaker, and actually weaken teams enough for others to sweep.

it isnt about the meta requiring to adapt, it is that the meta simply cannot adapt (you can toss the 'require to adapt' sentence for nearly every suspect like aegis or mmaw lol, people 'adapted' to mom by running helmet ferro/chomp and it still got the boot). 2hko'ing the entire meta is fine, big deal, lots of ppl can do that. but, not a lot of them have greninja's speed tier and can switch moves because greninja doesnt need a choice scarf to function. that's another issue altogether.

again, nobody seems to address the following issue
what does someone do when he is facing down a greninja

greninja's really only common move is ice beam and gunk shot, the other 2 slots are really much mix and match. and having the wrong counter to the wrong greninja means that the person facing down greninja is already inherently disadvantaged. besides, it's not like means dont exist where it is possible to bring greninja in safely (slowpassing/slowturning is based).

 

[branflakes]

this is big because it means that while greninja is easy to wear down

Even this is debatable lol. Greninja can usually get off about 7-9 attacks before KOing itself with Life Orb recoil, assuming rocks are present. This still gives Greninja all the time it needs to dismantle teams, and the chip damage is only significant because it brings Greninja into KO range of weak/resisted attacks. But you often play Greninja without taking any hits regardless, until its job is done and you end up saccing it or something.

 

[Raven8]

I mainly play in-game rather than in simulators like Showdown, so my views may a bit different on the subject, but here we go just the same:

In my game-time in X/Y, Greninja has probably been the most common threat that I've encountered. But, in spite of it being pain, I never considered it to be much of a problem. I've had a balanced defense Wish Sylveon, a choice scarf Keldeo, and a specially defensive assault vest Tyranitar on my team, so it wasn't a massive threat for the most part. Sylveon fairly well walled it, Keldeo could revenge-kill it if it wasn't scarfed, and Tyranitar didn't mind anything save U-Turn. In short, it was always a threat to be aware of, but never anything that I'd wince at seeing. There were viable ways to deal with it without having a single 'mon JUST to counter it.

....however, since ORAS hit, facing Greninja is now a game of Russian Roulette. True, you can probably figure out what it's running by looking at the team, but even that's playing with 60/40 odds, as it might be packing a wildcard move. Its potential move-set means that it can probably flatten anything, and it's entirely unpredictable if it's not running a scarf. At this point, I find this thing to be a greater threat than Aegislash ever was. At least I knew that a Fire Blast, Crunch, or Earthquake would likely cripple the haunted blade. Heck, to that end, Greninja doesn't even really need to play OHKO SE moves, as it can just predict an attack type, Protean to become strong/immune to it, and tank a hit before moving in for the kill next turn. You can say it's frail all day long, but I've seen this exact thing done more than once.

It's really a shame. Greninja is playing for the mid-weight title belt, but Gamefreak's latest additions made it just a bit over the weight limit. It's not Uber, but it's also not OU. Sadly, I'm voicing my opinion in favor of a ban.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Even this is debatable lol. Greninja can usually get off about 7-9 attacks before KOing itself with Life Orb recoil, assuming rocks are present. This still gives Greninja all the time it needs to dismantle teams, and the chip damage is only significant because it brings Greninja into KO range of weak/resisted attacks. But you often play Greninja without taking any hits regardless, until its job is done and you end up saccing it or something.

i handled greninja on my old stall team with assault vest tornadus-t, where i basically ev'd it to always survive talonflame's banded brave bird: this also has the side effect of being able to take an ice beam from greninja, from which i can u-turn or heat wave away, chipping into greninja's hp.

but yes, greninja is pretty ridiculous. everything that outruns greninja naturally either suck (almost all of them), is outclassed (noivern), is a mega and hence not guaranteed to outrun unless already mega (sceptile, beedrill, aerodactyl) or is talonflame, who doesn't give a fuck about speed to begin with. beyond that you're limited to choice scarf, which isn't exactly the hardest item to ever take advantage of.

greninja's issue is generally bulky pokemon that can take a hit, but that implies that said bulkymon already has a free switch into greninja, because most of the time, they are actually 2hko'd by greninja, and hence cannot switch in safely.

 

[Flarowak]

Ok so I'm throwing in my 2 cents. As super strong as I think Greninja is, at first I didn't really think it was worth banning. I understand completely the reasoning for wanting to ban it because after it got it's tutor moves, the checks and counters it once had dwindled quickly. Although he can theoretically 2hko just about anything, it's just not quite the case when using him in practice. No matter what set he runs he always has his checks and counters. The biggest problem imo is trying to scout his set in order to bring out what you need. In the process of just trying to figure out what move set he is running, you could easily lose one or two mons. Although he can be revenge killed easily after it's just a matter of getting him out. I'm honestly still on the fence with my vote, but after playing through some suspect ladder, I gotta admit it feels a lot cleaner. I totally see both sides and as upset as I will be to see one of my favorites go if he is banned, I couldn't really blame anyone.

 

[TaBuu]

In all honesty, I was on the fence about Greninja's potential ban but after playing a few matches and reading through some quality shit posting here, I think the only inevitable outcome for Greninja at this point is a ban.
Honestly, this thread has quickly evolved into a shitpool of "Greninja can be adapted to lol", "Greninja is 2 frail" and my all time favorite "It brings diversity bc we get to rock that porygon2 now, without hate".
I think a lot of these comments come out of pure inexperience and lack of actual gameplay. Greninja is an extremely potent Pokemon that brings little to no risk to the table. Hands down, Greninja has to be one of the safest Pokemon to use, thanks to its disgusting coverage, high base Speed, solid 95/103 offense and ability to utilize Protean and Life Orb. This all translates into a top-tier offensive Pokemon that places heavy amounts of strain on various team archetypes while giving the user an easy "move clicker" Pokemon. I'm all for the ban and also willing to support a no-ban as well. But with the amount of trash that keeps piling up for the no-ban side, it's only a matter of time until the pro-ban side gets their wish granted.
Do everyone a favor : play on the suspect ladder, reach at least 1400+, read a little more especially from experienced users, and then make a post regarding your decision.
Merry Christmas~

 

[MKL122788]

I've been keeping an eye on this thread for a while and figured I would finally throw my two cents in. Reading through earlier posts, I find the groups of people hell bent on falling way to one side or the other humorous. I think Greninja really tows the line that being banished is built for, and it really comes down to two questions for me.

1. Is Greninja over-centralizing? and 2. Is the metagame healthier without him?

So here it goes,

1. Is Greninja over-centralizing? I would lean towards no. I think he is definitely centralizing to an extent in that he has greatly increased the use of Porygon2 and Chansey on teams they really have no business being on, but I don't think he has dramatically shifted enough to qualify as over-centralizing. As a fast hitter, he has also pushed down the use of traditional special offensive pokemon because almost all of them get absolutely hammered by Greninja. This brings him very close to the line, but, in my opinion, doesn't push him quite over it by this standard.

2, Is the metagame healthier without him? I think this is a definite yes. In the end, his effect on balanced teams is hard to deny because his primary stops do not fit very well at all. It also brings a lot of different pokemon who can fill the fast hitting pokemon back into the fold. It also prevents the nonsense switch wars that take place with people bouncing Greninja in and out. Prediction is always going to be a big part of the game, but when it comes to Greninja, there is always the chance to lose and often very little chance of winning the prediction war against one. This is a huge problem when the seperation between the good and great players is the quality and accuracy of the prediction skills.

Because, for me, #2 is further from acceptable than #1 sits from unacceptable, I have to lean in favor of the ban. It is a shame, as I like Greninja. That being said, his removal would have a positive effect on the creativity of team building and quality of life of players.

 

[OrangeCrush101]

I think Greninja really needs to stay. I know he rips through a bunch of overused stuff, but isn't that good because it encourages people to not use the same boring stuff? With Greninja, my homeboy Porygon2 gets a ton of usage and people are learning that he's a total baller. Don't ban Greninja just because you're too afraid to deviate from the same old boring shit. Just bow down to the real overlord of OU, Porygon2.

 

[JMach]

I think Greninja really needs to stay. I know he rips through a bunch of overused stuff, but isn't that good because it encourages people to not use the same boring stuff? With Greninja, my homeboy Porygon2 gets a ton of usage and people are learning that he's a total baller. Don't ban Greninja just because you're too afraid to deviate from the same old boring shit. Just bow down to the real overlord of OU, Porygon2.

Porygon2 is literally the only thing that can even come close to hard stopping it, which makes your argument a little bit backwards because 2 months down the line Porygon2 will be seen as the "same boring stuff". That's the point, Ninja centralises teambuilding so much imo.

The suspect ladder atm seems so fresh and I've seen so many different team structures that are just as capable as one another.

 

[Rich Homie Supreme]

I think Greninja really needs to stay. I know he rips through a bunch of overused stuff, but isn't that good because it encourages people to not use the same boring stuff? With Greninja, my homeboy Porygon2 gets a ton of usage and people are learning that he's a total baller. Don't ban Greninja just because you're too afraid to deviate from the same old boring shit. Just bow down to the real overlord of OU, Porygon2.

Resorting to porygon2 just because of greninja is just like when people used imposter ditto just to beat mega mence. If we have to use non ou mons to beat something, it should be banned.

 

[xSilentDeviL]

There are a lot of stupid posts...
"I should not be forced to run one or two checks to a particular Pokemon"...ok now, this is just silly. You are supposed to have checks to everything that is commonly used. Greninja is not special in this regard, if you have no checks to Talonflame you get swept too.
"Greninja has no counters besides Porygon2 because it might be running the appropriate coverage for it".
You know what else has no counters because it might be running the appropriate coverage and you might get bopped on the switch in? Show me a counter to Mew and I'll show you how its not based on Mew's super movepool...in fact, Greninja is probably more predictable, you can look at their team and judge their coverage normally, or even use risk/reward to choose a mon to sac. Since they prob have to sac to get Greninja in as well.

Actually Mega Sableye fucks over just about any Mew you'll ever see in OU. Mew can run other sets besides its popular stallbreaking set but you need to realize that just bc Mew can run just ab any set, doesn't mean its the best Pokemon for the job. Greninja really only changes 2 of its 4 moves around, with all being equally as viable.

Talonflame doesn't require as obscure checks like Greninja, and has a 4x weakness to SR which are on like 90% of teams. All these anti-ban posts talking about how we can check the frog based on its moves or niche pokemon like P2. People are tired of this. One pokemon is not important enough to the meta that teams need to devote 2 out of 6 mons to it. The suspect ladder is a much better metagame. For the record, I absolutely love Greninja and am very upset it may be leaving. But, I eventually came to realize how much more fun the game is without him, and thats the most important thing.