np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]

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You literally just contradicted your point when you said with that last sentence.
You literally listed the negatives of Gren. Low defenses on gren is an argument because that is what stops him from being a true monster.
But those points hold nothing against Greninja or any realistic fast, strong Pokemon, for that matter. You will (hopefully) never face a Pokemon that is bulky, strong on both offenses, and fast. Yes Greninja is frail but it's something I see (sorry if I didn't get this across) as something expected from a Pokemon of its kind and isn't what keeps it from being a monster because, again, you won't see an omnipotent Pokemon in OU.

So yeah this thing is frail, so are most fast, hard hitting Pokemon but that doesn't stop it from being broken. This thing can hit everything Super Effectively and with STAB before they can hit back. Mega Mawile was slow but that didn't stop it from being broken.
 
This will legitimately be my last post in this thread, since it's already becoming a disgusting thread to read through.

Firstly, let's stop with the "Frailty" talk. If a Pokemon's frailty was a big enough factor, Deoxys-A would be OU, we all know how horrible of a place the OU metagame would be if that were the case. Mega Lucario's main argument (from anti-ban members) was its frailty, however, it's clear that literally EVERYTHING else is more than enough to cover that one down fall. Greninja essentially is the definition of Low Risk High Reward. There is almost never a point in which the person using Greninja has to make a risky play that could other wise put it in danger unless of course the person using it is not the most knowledgeable. It comes in, clicks whatever move it wants, either picks off whatever switches in the next turn, or switches out to wait for its turn to do it all over again. Again, very little risk with a whole lot of reward.
As much as I agree that Greninja is clearly too good and unhealthy for the tier, you shouldn't be so quick to downplay its biggest and ONLY downside. Greninja's frailty, while it's not enough to make Greninja manageable, is probably the only thing that has kept it in OU for so long. It's a very legitimate anti-ban argument. You claim that Greninja is the "definition of Low Risk High Reward", yet you disregard one of the most important parts of using Greninja - getting it in safely. This is most often done by letting something faint, which isn't necessarily a situation that works in your favor, especially if the opponent's team happens to have one or two checks. Greninja's frailty makes it really hard to bring in by hard switching.

That being said, Greninja doesn't need to hard switch to pull its weight in a match.

If you're going to downplay Greninja's weaknesses, please do not compare it to Mega Lucario or Deoxys-A. Those two were considered broken for many different reasons.
 
As much as I agree that Greninja is clearly too good and unhealthy for the tier, you shouldn't be so quick to downplay its biggest and ONLY downside. Greninja's frailty, while it's not enough to make Greninja manageable, is probably the only thing that has kept it in OU for so long. It's a very legitimate anti-ban argument, albeit one that doesn't outweigh the pro-ban arguments. You claim that Greninja is the "definition of Low Risk High Reward", yet you disregard one of the most important parts of using Greninja - getting it in safely. This is most often done by letting something faint, which isn't necessarily a situation that works in your favor, especially if the opponent's team happens to have one or two checks. Greninja's frailty makes it really hard to bring in by hard switching.

That being said, Greninja doesn't need to hard switch to pull its weight in a match.

If you're going to downplay Greninja's weaknesses, please do not compare it to Mega Lucario or Deoxys-A. Those two were considered broken for many different reasons.
This is implying that Greninja was ever used as a switch in the entire time it has been in OU. Its lack of defensive synergy is not the issue at hand as its Greninja's offensive traits that make Greninja unhealthy. Something suspect worthy doesn't have to excel in both offensive, supportive, or defensive aspects all at the same time to be unhealthy for the tier. If one of these aspects, in Greninjas case its offensive traits, is enough to propel itself above the radar when it comes to over-centralization then that is what would be looked at. Also what kept it in OU for a long time was the lack of Low Kick and Gunk Shot which it gained with the transistion from XY to ORAS. This isn't exactly directed towards you more so than the handful of comments I've seen using this flawed logic that Greninja is suppose to excel in everything possible all at once.
 
Banning a Pokemon because it causes a metagame shift is such faulty reasoning. If there are ways to check something but you simply don't want to use those Pokemon because they are restricted to certain playstyles, you are either 1) Biased against certain playstyles, or 2) not accepting of a playstyle's weakness to Greninja. Greninja destroys balance, that is understandable, but I didn't see a Heracronite suspect in XY because of how badly it destroys stall. Pokemon don't get banned to preserve playstyles, is my point here.
I covered this in an earlier post. The shift Greninja causes is extreme and unhealthy. I'm not biased towards balance, I only believe that a meta where you're either fully defensive or offensive isn't a good one.

"Not accepting of a playstyle's weakness to Greninja:" balanced teams' weakness to Greninja far exceeds the weakness stall had to Mega Heracross. And this isn't just indicative of how restrictive it is to those archetypes, but it also highlights why Greninja is maybe too much: the most effective means of dealing with it are revenge killing it or relying on passive checks that kill your momentum and are free switches for the opposing team.

Stall had answers to Mega Heracross that worked for them. And Heracross never came close to Greninja's current usage rate.

Examples of viable sets and pokemon in such a scenario? I don't really understand this part of your argument at all. If Pokemon A is your check to Greninja, you should keep it as healthy as possible in order to take on Greninja at any point during the game. Despite that hazard damage is somewhat unavoidable in many cases, taking a small amount of prior damage (define small in your argument please) implies you either made bad switches, or is using Pokemon A to also check another threat; and, you really shouldn't be using blanket checks to handle Greninja because of how much of a threat it is (referring back to bad teambuilding).
This was a weak point on my part. I was talking about stuff that could take a hit and OHKO back but took lots of damage in the process. Greninja can be handled in this way but damage is unavoidable in many cases. An example would be Mega Metagross being too weak to survive Hydro Pump if it previously took a Draco Meteor from Latios, something it's often depended on to check. This is something you noted with "... or is using Pokemon A to also check another threat."

I really don't see a problem with running dedicated checks either, because many OU pokemon have needed them in the past (think MegaZardX)
X-zard had checks that fit on all archetypes and functioned outside of checking just X-zard, it's not on the level of ORAS Greninja.

I honestly can't argue much with this point, as it is mostly true. But again, there are a slew of ways to viably check Greninja without opportunity cost. ORAS brought yet another speed creep, and Greninja just isn't as fast as it was in XY.
Here's the list of new megas that outspeed it: Lopunny, Sceptile, and Beedrill. Sceptile has low usage rates and Beedrill isn't really stellar. 122 is still amazing.

I understand that Greninja outspends nearly the entire unboosted metagame, but if a team needs a scarfed Pokemon/+122 base speed mon/bulky stall mons to check Greninja, so be it.
See: "the most effective means of dealing with it are revenge killing it or relying on extremely passive checks that kill your momentum and are free switches for the opposing team." Greninja wouldn't be a problem if there were pokemon that could A. reliably switch in to some degree, and B. have measurable offensive pressure, but this is hardly the case. Go look at Jukain's list, nearly everything there is just so passive.

And by the way, you're not going to be able to stuff a HO full of things that all outspeed/priority. Greninja doesn't just shit on balance, it's amazing against offense, it's usage rates are no mistake.

The first part here is true; however, your second point here about switching in Greninja is flawed, as the fact that Greninja can't switch into anything does
offset how great it is offensively ... Unlike these two past bans, Greninja actually has consistent checks (such as the aforementioned ScarfMons, 122+ base speed mons, and bulky stall mons).
Mega Luke was banned nearly unanimously so it's not an apt comparison to any suspects. Suspecting it was a waste of time. Aegislash's test was a mess and should be revisited. Greninja should be judged on its own merits.

Also, when you say, "...the teams Greninja is seen on don't have a problem sacing stuff and you can just double switch anyway", you imply that a team facing Greninja will ALWAYS be outplayed, and this is clearly not true. There is not a problem with making aggressive plays and facing 50/50s, that is, well, what makes Pokemon the game that it is.
Sacs aren't outplaying.

Double switches, sure, they're not reliable, but the point is that it's not very difficult to get Greninja (or any pokemon) on the field. People talk like its frailty means it's never coming out, this isn't the case.

NumberC39:TheRagingDemon are you implying Mewtwo only got banned because it was in smash?
 
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NumberC39:TheRagingDemon

Hi. I know you probably think that your last post was great and that you really gave us the what for, but I would just like to kindly inform you that it was of such terrible quality that most of us knowledgeable players are sitting around scratching our heads at some of the points you brought up and are wondering how someone with any decent amount of competitive knowledge could possibly make such absurd arguments. I would like to make you a list of the many dubious arguments you have made and I hope that you will check it twice and better decide for yourself which points are naughty and nice. In the spirit of Christmas, I'm going to try to be as gentle as possible with this, but I will also be quite blunt, so take nothing personally. Ahem.

A) Please don't start a post with comments about "You just want to ban stuff because you're a bunch of babies" and things along that lines. Contrary to popular belief among prestigious competitive communities like GameFAQs, this sort of petty insult does not strengthen your argument but rather makes it look much less legitimate. There's a reason that these sorts of attacks are often referred to as "playground tactics" (I'll let you discern the reason why for yourself).

B) We at Smogon have never been concerned with a Pokemon's popularity in TV shows and video games. Otherwise, Pikachu would have ascended with Mega Rayquaza to "Anything Goes" long, long ago. On a related note, we banned Mega Lucario, not Lucario in general.

C) Instead of just saying "Smogon players can't adapt," it'd be far more convincing if you would offer such ways in which we can adapt to Greninja. You make an unsuccessful attempt to do this, but more on that later.

D) Stating that "Greninja's not even that good" is quite the indicator of low experience in high level play. If you notice throughout this thread and its Victory Road counterpart, even those experienced players that prefer no ban have also acknowledged just how powerful Greninja really is. Even if you believe it not to be banworthy, it would be foolish to argue that it is anything less than top tier.

E) One great way to not be laughed off the stage here at Smogon is to not suggest that physical walls in any way hinder Greninja and, more importantly, to not suggest that Greninja commonly runs such moves as Waterfall or Water Shuriken. I suggest you heed this advice if you wish to be taken more seriously in the future.

F) Greninja's Special Attack is actually higher than Trapinch's Attack, so not both of its attacking stats are lower than Trapinch's.

G) Blissey does not wall Greninja since 40 Atk Gunk Shot 2HKOs 252/252+ Blissey 36.3% of the time after Stealth Rock, and that's not counting any prior damage or the possibility of poison hax. Not to mention that it's usually passed over in favor of the generally better Eviolite Chansey, who is a much better counter but has been discussed to death in this thread enough as it is.

H) I regret to inform you that Assault Vest Crobat is not, has never been, and will never be a thing. If Crobat ever had a slight niche in OU, it would most likely be as a fast Defogger, which is obviously incompatible with the Assault Vest. In addition, Ice Beam is a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock without a lot of bulk investment, and Brave Bird needs some prior damage to OHKO in return despite how frail Greninja is.

I) In a similar vein, physically defensive Assault Vest Gyarados is also not a thing. Gyarados has much better things to do besides tank hits with no recovery and a Stealth Rock weakness while dishing out fairly weak uninvested attacks. Such tactics are better left to much more capable Assault Vest users. In the words of a whole bunch of random RU players, "STOP USING ASSAULT VEST ON EVERYTHING!!!"

J) Even if those few sets you mention did stop Greninja perfectly, that alone does not mean it's not banworthy. Even the mightiest of Ubers have several things that can hard wall them or at least keep them in check. If having a few random niche checks was enough of a reason to never ban something, then nothing would ever be banned.

K) Smogon has never forced everyone to play by their rules. Quite the contrary, it has been said many, many times that these rules are made only for our community and for our servers. If you want to go play by a completely different set of rules, then by all means go. No one is going to try to stop you, and no one claimed that they would. Smogon rules are just here for people who want to play by Smogon rules. To further solidify my point, here is a quote from Aldaron after the Deoxys-D/S suspect test found here:

Remember, this is only enforced on SMOGON servers and SMOGON tournaments. It is ENTIRELY up to you to decide whether or not you decide to adhere to our community's rules and tiers. If you don't agree with a ban, please, play whatever you want on whichever servers / tournaments you want to play. We do NOT claim we are official and our tiering decisions are made BY our community FOR our community.
L) More of a personal opinion of mine, but the cancer lines are really worn out at this point. Not that cancer was ever something to joke about to begin with, wouldn't you agree?

M)


Thank you, and have a very Merry Christmas.
 
"Overcentralizing"
What exactly is it overcentralizing here? In over 30 battles on the OU Suspect ladder, I have not really seen any noticeable difference between the standard ladder and the suspect one, sans the obvious lack of Greninja alone. Every single Pokemon that was common is still common, uncommon is still uncommon. Nothing really had a spike in usage or lack thereof.
 
"Overcentralizing"
What exactly is it overcentralizing here? In over 30 battles on the OU Suspect ladder, I have not really seen any noticeable difference between the standard ladder and the suspect one, sans the obvious lack of Greninja alone. Every single Pokemon that was common is still common, uncommon is still uncommon. Nothing really had a spike in usage or lack thereof.
1 day of the ladder being online, during a holiday is no an accurate representation of what the meta is like especially if you're not in the upper ranks. Greninja being gone allows a bunch of BL pokemon to be viable (Diggersby) and allows fairies to exist in the meta again. Greninja over centralizes the game because he WILL kill 2 pokemon during a battle if you're even half decent player. He can run anything your team needs and it doesn't not make sense not to run greninja. Additionally, 30 games is not an accurate sample size for usage when there are thousands of matches being played every minute on showdown.
 

Celticpride

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I would vote No Ban on Greninja basing my decision on the definition of an Uber Pokemon, which is as follows.
  • Support Characteristic: A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
3. Support Characteristic - No Ban

While Greninja excels at supporting its teammates with hazards, due to its frailty it must be extra cautious in going for the support move, and one miss-play could result in Greninja being taken out quickly for the rest of the match. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-195402249. As evidenced by this replay, the liability of Greninja as a hazard setter is seen from a defensive Pokemon which easily disposed of Greninja as it tried to set hazards. Furthermore, Greninja faces competition as a hazard setter from Ferrothorn and Chesnaught, which trade offensive capabilities for defensive ones, as well as Klefki, which offers much better defensive typing and better support moves. Due to the flaws Greninja has as a support Mon and to the competition it faces as a hazard setter, it should not be banned to ubers based on the support characteristic.
Outside of the fact that you cherry picked replays throughout your post (high level players can beat Mega Mence and Mega Kanga when not using said borked mons themselves), the support characteristic goes way beyond mere hazard stacking. Mega Gengar was banned primarily under the support characteristic because of the ease in which it removed other Pokemons checks and counters. If you happen to think that something has to be Deoxys levels of hazard stacking to fit that reason for banning, that's just wrong. There's a lot more to it than that, and the ease at which Gren can lure out checks for other mons combined with it's low oppertunity cost (one of only two non-Mega suspects so far) can leave you with a very convincing argument as to why Gren fits in that category. I happen to think it does fit the category, some others may think it doesn't and that's fine, but the way you are representing the support category is entirely incorrect.
 
"Overcentralizing"
What exactly is it overcentralizing here? In over 30 battles on the OU Suspect ladder, I have not really seen any noticeable difference between the standard ladder and the suspect one, sans the obvious lack of Greninja alone. Every single Pokemon that was common is still common, uncommon is still uncommon. Nothing really had a spike in usage or lack thereof.
I can't believe I'm coming back here again.

Okay there are a combination of stuff that makes it over-centralizing:

  • Protean: Ensures STAB and either half damage from most moves or flat out immunity in some cases
  • Diverse Movepool: Protean+HP alone makes the thing unpredictable but there is also Ice Beam, Low Kick, Gunk Shot and other moves that ensure Greninja can be any type but Fairy (albeit most of them are HP)
  • Great offensive stats: It can outspend everything in the tier with max EVs and it has high enough offensives to easily kill most things (the one thing that is actually resilient and thus the only anti-ban argument beside frailty is Porygon2.
Also as SkaterTrainer said, its Christmas, most of the people on Showdown are probably with their families. As such the current result are inaccurate. give it a few days and you'll start to see Porygon2s flood the ladder to combat Greninja.

tl;dr: If only ONE pokemon can CHECK a pokemon at best, it's gonna be suspect and it's likely to be kicked up to Ubers (or AG if the problem persists even in Ubers as what happened to mega-Raquayza and almost happened to mega-Gengar before)
 
NumberC39:TheRagingDemon

Hi. I know you probably think that your last post was great and that you really gave us the what for, but I would just like to kindly inform you that it was of such terrible quality that most of us knowledgeable players are sitting around scratching our heads at some of the points you brought up and are wondering how someone with any decent amount of competitive knowledge could possibly make such absurd arguments. I would like to make you a list of the many dubious arguments you have made and I hope that you will check it twice and better decide for yourself which points are naughty and nice. In the spirit of Christmas, I'm going to try to be as gentle as possible with this, but I will also be quite blunt, so take nothing personally. Ahem.

A) Please don't start a post with comments about "You just want to ban stuff because you're a bunch of babies" and things along that lines. Contrary to popular belief among prestigious competitive communities like GameFAQs, this sort of petty insult does not strengthen your argument but rather makes it look much less legitimate. There's a reason that these sorts of attacks are often referred to as "playground tactics" (I'll let you discern the reason why for yourself).

B) We at Smogon have never been concerned with a Pokemon's popularity in TV shows and video games. Otherwise, Pikachu would have ascended with Mega Rayquaza to "Anything Goes" long, long ago. On a related note, we banned Mega Lucario, not Lucario in general.

C) Instead of just saying "Smogon players can't adapt," it'd be far more convincing if you would offer such ways in which we can adapt to Greninja. You make an unsuccessful attempt to do this, but more on that later.

D) Stating that "Greninja's not even that good" is quite the indicator of low experience in high level play. If you notice throughout this thread and its Victory Road counterpart, even those experienced players that prefer no ban have also acknowledged just how powerful Greninja really is. Even if you believe it not to be banworthy, it would be foolish to argue that it is anything less than top tier.

E) One great way to not be laughed off the stage here at Smogon is to not suggest that physical walls in any way hinder Greninja and, more importantly, to not suggest that Greninja commonly runs such moves as Waterfall or Water Shuriken. I suggest you heed this advice if you wish to be taken more seriously in the future.

F) Greninja's Special Attack is actually higher than Trapinch's Attack, so not both of its attacking stats are lower than Trapinch's.

G) Blissey does not wall Greninja since 40 Atk Gunk Shot 2HKOs 252/252+ Blissey 36.3% of the time after Stealth Rock, and that's not counting any prior damage or the possibility of poison hax. Not to mention that it's usually passed over in favor of the generally better Eviolite Chansey, who is a much better counter but has been discussed to death in this thread enough as it is.

H) I regret to inform you that Assault Vest Crobat is not, has never been, and will never be a thing. If Crobat ever had a slight niche in OU, it would most likely be as a fast Defogger, which is obviously incompatible with the Assault Vest. In addition, Ice Beam is a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock without a lot of bulk investment, and Brave Bird needs some prior damage to OHKO in return despite how frail Greninja is.

I) In a similar vein, physically defensive Assault Vest Gyarados is also not a thing. Gyarados has much better things to do besides tank hits with no recovery and a Stealth Rock weakness while dishing out fairly weak uninvested attacks. Such tactics are better left to much more capable Assault Vest users. In the words of a whole bunch of random RU players, "STOP USING ASSAULT VEST ON EVERYTHING!!!"

J) Even if those few sets you mention did stop Greninja perfectly, that alone does not mean it's not banworthy. Even the mightiest of Ubers have several things that can hard wall them or at least keep them in check. If having a few random niche checks was enough of a reason to never ban something, then nothing would ever be banned.

K) Smogon has never forced everyone to play by their rules. Quite the contrary, it has been said many, many times that these rules are made only for our community and for our servers. If you want to go play by a completely different set of rules, then by all means go. No one is going to try to stop you, and no one claimed that they would. Smogon rules are just here for people who want to play by Smogon rules. To further solidify my point, here is a quote from Aldaron after the Deoxys-D/S suspect test found here:



L) More of a personal opinion of mine, but the cancer lines are really worn out at this point. Not that cancer was ever something to joke about to begin with, wouldn't you agree?

M)


Thank you, and have a very Merry Christmas.
As much as I applaud you for actually writing a counter argument to NumberC39:TheRagingDemon 's... "argument", I'm 99% sure he was intentionally trolling and trying to get a rise out of us. But just in case he wasn't:

N) Gyarados can't learn Aerial Ace.
 
I've been on the fence for a while with this thing. Pre ORAS I would definately say no ban, due to things like Azumarill and Chansey existing to ruin the ninjas day. Even mid ORAS I was on the fence because I was able to deal with Greninja appropriately despite its new movepool.

However, I am reconsidering my position because after a while of listening to greninja talks, I realized that the way I've been successfully dealing with it is due to obscure checks and counters. This had made me realize that Greninja is limiting teambuilding by a large margin- sure HO and offense have some scarfers to deal with it, but that still limits teambuilding to a certain degree. Plus, if you battle the average smogoner who is by no means an idiot, he'll see your ninja scarf counterer and just switch to something that can deal with that.

With azumarill, its primary (?) check gone, this thing can just sweep freely as long as your opponent is halfway decent. The amount of pokemon that can now deal with the... Turtle... Uh..

The amount of pokemon that can deal with the turtle in ORAS is limited to a select few obscure things like tentacruel and, my personal preference, AV Tornadus T (don't knock it till you've tried it). Because the turtle severaly limits teambuilding options, I am going to ask for a Ban since I am too busy to get the reqs myself.

*shades on* De-ooze this mutant.

...

I apologize for the stupid ass pun. Too much eggnog.
 
Greninja in XY was one of the best special sweepers in the OU tier, but was kept in line by most fairies and special walls. However, in ORAS Gren was given two new tools that allow it to beat what were it's hard checks/counters, Gunk Shot and Low Kick. What these two moves have done is make Greninja one of the most over-centralizing Pokemon in the OU tier with a limited amount of proper counters outside Stall, severely hindering the viability of Balance and HO. Now, I could go on and on repeating things that many people have already said and many more will continue to say, but I'll just give my opinion and say that Greninja is over-centralizing and needs to be banned.

P.S. Merry Christmas everyone!
 
The fact that greninja usually carries life orb is not a valid argument against it, Lots of pokemon carry life orbs.

Perfect coverage is not a good argument either. As just one example, anything that learns a fighting, dark, and normal or steel move has perfect coverage. The increased distribution of Knock off makes this a lot easier than it used to be. Many sweepers now have perfect coverage.

One of the top reasons for banning things from OU has been a pokemon's ability to use a number of good, powerful sets along with being reasonably bulky, like Mega Salamence, Genesect, and Mega Kangaskhan. That bulk makes them significantly more difficult to take down by the typical methods of scarfers and priority.

People say that he has no counters, but counters aren't the only way to beat something. There's nothing greninja hates more than being forced out, as it gives the opponent free turns and makes him take entry hazard damage. He's easily worn down. He's also easily scared away by common priorities and scarfers, like Scizor, Talonflame, Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Lando-T etc. Because the cost of staying in is much higher than switching out, he'll switch, which lets you either start boosting or U-Turn/Volt-Switch to wear down the predicted switchins to walls. When the walls are sufficiently weakened there's nowhere to run and nothing to protect him from these pokes.

I think that Greninja's use of Gunk Shot and Low Kick actually make him easier to take down than he would with his standard special set. Why? Now he's made himself weak to ground and flying, two prominent, common attacking types. If he kills something with one of these moves, he's now going to be forced out when you bring in scarfers/prioriy users.

252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def [Poison-type] Greninja: 302-356 (105.5 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def [Poison-type] Greninja: 492-582 (172 - 203.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def [Poison-type] Greninja: 456-536 (159.4 - 187.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def [Poison-type] Greninja: 297-349 (103.8 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def [Fighting-type] Greninja: 396-468 (138.4 - 163.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And of course if he's just come in there's this:

252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def [Dark-type] Greninja: 300-354 (104.8 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I could post more but you get the point. Because he gets forced out from the above, this gives you a free turn to either boost, attack, u-turn/voltswitch or double switch to a check or counter. You've got plenty of choices, and attacking/u-turning/voltswitching allows you to slowly wear down both the walls that are going to switch in.

What if you don't want to run priority/scarf users? Then you have to ask yourself how you deal with +1 mixed sweepers at least. How do you deal with Infernape? Dragonite? Psyshock Lati@s? Mega Metagross? Salamence? Prankster. Take a hit and then phaze. Toxic and then sub/protect stall with Scolipede. Paralysis makes him almost useless due to his low bulk. Don't complain when you switch in Chansey and take a Latios Psyshock or Low Kick from Greninja, this is what mixed sweepers do. You kill them by revenging/trapping rather than walling. Unless they have great bulk like Mega Salamence, Mega Kangaskhan, Genesect etc this is completely fair.

The fact of the matter is that we already have mixed sweepers in this meta that also have great coverage and diverse sets, and the reason that they aren't in ubers is because they either have poor bulk or are vulnerable to prominent priority moves or scarfers. Greninja is in the same, he's vulnerable to the same range of priorities and scarfers. You can say that Greninja has a range of possible sets, but so do the above pokemon I mentioned. Just like the above, you know that there is one frequently run popular set, and you know that people frequently tailor their sets to fit their team. I don't get this argument of "I switch in Tentacruel, Extrasensory, I switch in Ferrothorn, Low Kick," when this applies with every one of the above mixed sweepers.

Greninja is a mixed sweeper with the same weaknesses to scarfers and priority users as other mixed sweepers, and doesn't have significant bulk to differentiate itself. His power is not really anything special when you consider the mixed sweepers that are frequently at +1 in an offensive stat due to either boosting moves or choice specs/band. Sure he can hit from both sides, but so can any of the above. Comparisons to Genesect are not relevant as he's not nearly as difficult as Genesect to revenge. You just can't make a team, any team, without knowing what to do when a mixed sweeper comes in.

No ban.
 
This is implying that Greninja was ever used as a switch in the entire time it has been in OU. Its lack of defensive synergy is not the issue at hand as its Greninja's offensive traits that make Greninja unhealthy. Something suspect worthy doesn't have to excel in both offensive, supportive, or defensive aspects all at the same time to be unhealthy for the tier. If one of these aspects, in Greninjas case its offensive traits, is enough to propel itself above the radar when it comes to over-centralization then that is what would be looked at. Also what kept it in OU for a long time was the lack of Low Kick and Gunk Shot which it gained with the transistion from XY to ORAS. This isn't exactly directed towards you more so than the handful of comments I've seen using this flawed logic that Greninja is suppose to excel in everything possible all at once.
Actually I was making it very clear that Greninja shouldn't be and isn't able to switch into most things. The purpose of my post was to point out that this is a significant weakness for Greninja as a pokemon that benefits so much from every opportunity it gets to do something. Don't get me wrong though. It's stupidly powerful and its offensive capabilities more than compensate for this weakness. My point is that "greninja is frail" is a valid and relevant argument because its frailty limits what it would otherwise be capable of doing. If this thread warrants any discussion that isn't completely one-sided, this should be a topic of discussion.

although im pretty sure everything has been discussed already so idk lol

Perfect coverage is not a good argument either. As just one example, anything that learns a fighting, dark, and normal or steel move has perfect coverage. The increased distribution of Knock off makes this a lot easier than it used to be. Many sweepers now have perfect coverage.
try perfect STAB coverage. the only other pokemon to have it is Mega Lopunny, who is limited to physical attacking sets only.
 
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i dont see why protecting a play style is merits for banning a pokemon. if a pokemon single handedly makes stall useless i doubt any one would be complaining. also preparing for grenjinja isthe same as preparing for bird spaml, knock off or dark types in general, lando and rotom.
 
Yare yare...

I am so disappointed how you guys are bitching about another competitive pokemon.
Doesnt it remind you a bit of aegislash? ^^ Changing Type / Changing Form? No? well maybe its just me^^

ANYWAYS lets get to the real shit.
Does Greninja need to go to uber?

My answer is no.

Upsides to Greninja:

-THE POTENTIAL for excellent STAB coverage (which you all should have noticed by now)
-There is no counter to this pokemon
-Ways of countering enemy moves by changing type (which is very risky tho)

Downsides to Greninja:

-Can switch in as bad as the enemy can switch out IF NOT EVEN WORSE
-Loses to choice scarfed pokemon
-Loses to neutral priority after LO and SR in OU
-Gets worn down quickly (no recovery, life orb recoil, SR are neutral)
-Can not run : Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Gunk Shot, Grass Knot, Low Kick, Extrasensory, Dark Pulse, Hidden Power Fire, Shadow Sneak, Spikes, U-turn, Rock Slide;

WHAT DO YOU NEED TO TO BEAT GRENINJA?

Lets assume you have Stealth Rocks up wich you usually have.

Some examples of what I figured out I could do on a team I did not even THINK OF GRENINJA in my teambuilding:

-Switch in Choice Scarf Keldeo into a predicted ice beam / hydro pump / gunk shot / low kick / shadow sneak / spikes / hidden power whatever.. LET IT TAKE LO DAMAGE and klick hydro. GG

-Switch in Life Orb Bisharp into a predicted ice beam / gunk shot / ... LET IT TAKE LO DAMAGE and klick sucker punch. GG

HOW DO YOU GET TO KNOW WHAT MOVESET GRENINJA IS RUNNING?

Scouting.

Since only Ice Beam and Gunk Shot are on every Greninja and if the enemy Greninja is running extrasensory HE DOES NOT EXPECT YOU TO KNOW THAT!!!
So if you have the matchup KELDEO VS GRENINJA there are 2 things he can do:
1. Klick Extrasensory (if you are scarfed you could just klick secret sword...) = He has Extrasensory ->>> you need to scout for 1 more move
2. Switch out = He has no Extrasensory ->>> your keldeo will fuck his greninja
There is no way he will go for ice beam / w.e. since extrasensory is not that common on ninja and he will try to kill you with this surprise factor.

SO NOW YOU CAN EASY SWITCH IN SOMETHING IMMUNE OR RESISTANT TO PSYCHIC AND SCOUT FOR EXTRASENSORY!

As addition if you are bisharp you can klick sucker punch now and either force it out which will force it to switch in again and greninja hates switching in or will kill it.
You could also go for sword dance if you think he predicts you to sucker punch and sweep from there ^^

That all being said I think Greninja is a very good mon in OU and can beat inexperienced people by itself however if you get higher on the ladder you can play around it and it does not deserve a bann.

EDIT: I also have a question for you. What do you do when you see a charizard? Tell me one mon that can switch in and beat him 1v1 but I will be able to chose what kind of charizard it is since people always do that with greninja too and you have to scout for charizard sets as well.

EDIT2: I would like to add some more interesting stuff i´ve seen about scarfer and priority user forcing greninja out and it can NOT switch in easy
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def [Poison-type] Greninja: 302-356 (105.5 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def [Poison-type] Greninja: 492-582 (172 - 203.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def [Poison-type] Greninja: 456-536 (159.4 - 187.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def [Poison-type] Greninja: 297-349 (103.8 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def [Fighting-type] Greninja: 396-468 (138.4 - 163.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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Yare yare...

I am so disappointed how you guys are bitching about another competitive pokemon.
Doesnt it remind you a bit of aegislash? ^^ Changing Type / Changing Form? No? well maybe its just me^^

ANYWAYS lets get to the real shit.
Does Greninja need to go to uber?

My answer is no.

Upsides to Greninja:

-THE POTENTIAL for excellent STAB coverage (which you all should have noticed by now)
-There is no counter to this pokemon
-Ways of countering enemy moves by changing type (which is very risky tho)

Downsides to Greninja:

-Can switch in as bad as the enemy can switch out IF NOT EVEN WORSE
-Loses to choice scarfed pokemon
-Loses to neutral priority after LO and SR in OU
-Gets worn down quickly (no recovery, life orb recoil, SR are neutral)
-Can not run : Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Gunk Shot, Grass Knot, Low Kick, Extrasensory, Dark Pulse, Hidden Power Fire, Shadow Sneak, Spikes, U-turn, Rock Slide;

WHAT DO YOU NEED TO TO BEAT GRENINJA?

Lets assume you have Stealth Rocks up wich you usually have.

Some examples of what I figured out I could do on a team I did not even THINK OF GRENINJA in my teambuilding:

-Switch in Choice Scarf Keldeo into a predicted ice beam / hydro pump / gunk shot / low kick / shadow sneak / spikes / hidden power whatever.. LET IT TAKE LO DAMAGE and klick hydro. GG

-Switch in Life Orb Bisharp into a predicted ice beam / gunk shot / ... LET IT TAKE LO DAMAGE and klick sucker punch. GG

HOW DO YOU GET TO KNOW WHAT MOVESET GRENINJA IS RUNNING?

Scouting.

Since only Ice Beam and Gunk Shot are on every Greninja and if the enemy Greninja is running extrasensory HE DOES NOT EXPECT YOU TO KNOW THAT!!!
So if you have the matchup KELDEO VS GRENINJA there are 2 things he can do:
1. Klick Extrasensory (if you are scarfed you could just klick secret sword...) = He has Extrasensory ->>> you need to scout for 1 more move
2. Switch out = He has no Extrasensory ->>> your keldeo will fuck his greninja
There is no way he will go for ice beam / w.e. since extrasensory is not that common on ninja and he will try to kill you with this surprise factor.

SO NOW YOU CAN EASY SWITCH IN SOMETHING IMMUNE OR RESISTANT TO PSYCHIC AND SCOUT FOR EXTRASENSORY!

As addition if you are bisharp you can klick sucker punch now and either force it out which will force it to switch in again and greninja hates switching in or will kill it.
You could also go for sword dance if you think he predicts you to sucker punch and sweep from there ^^

That all being said I think Greninja is a very good mon in OU and can beat inexperienced people by itself however if you get higher on the ladder you can play around it and it does not deserve a bann.

EDIT: I also have a question for you. What do you do when you see a charizard? Tell me one mon that can switch in and beat him 1v1 but I will be able to chose what kind of charizard it is since people always do that with greninja too and you have to scout for charizard sets as well.
Switch into Greninja into predicted Ice Beam, Take unpredicted Extrasensory into the face instead, Keldeo dies. And if Greninja is Dark-type, it isn't KOd by Sucker Punch. This works both ways.
 
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Lots of Pokemon make Stall's life difficult - that's why we have Stallbreakers. But in all of their cases, they come with checks, counters, and drawbacks - MHeracross (haven't used it in a while, so things might have changed in ORAS) is (or was?) a terror for Stall teams, but it loses out to a lot of other things that *can* counter it and not everyone can run a MHeracross. Whereas Greninja is ubiquitous, it performs well against ALL team types and just particularly well against what a lot of people see as the most important team style, balance. Plus a lot of people DO complain when a Pokemon shits on Stall so that's not really an argument?

Scouting Greninja can cost as much as half your team in HP because of the strength behind its attacks and the number of coverage options it can run - short of Chansey and P2, there is nothing Greninja can't specifically gun for. It's a lure. That's what it does. And it will lure the Pokemon that would provide the most aid in stopping its OTHER 5 teammates from sweeping, which means after scouting and taking out Greninja, you're STILL at a disadvantage.

And with perfect prediction any move can be invalidated, so claiming you can always switch in your Psychic resist into an extrasensory is fallacious. Don't assume you can scout moves with perfect prediction. Also assuming Greninja will stay in on moves that outspeed and KO it is hella silly. Bans are targeted with players at the top of the ladder in mind; the Greninja player we should be talking about it someone who's not as dumb as a half-brick.

Frailty (weakness to scarfers, priority, and being worn down easily) are also not major sticking points. Greninja is being suspected because of its OFFENSIVE PRESSURE, none of which is offset by its defenses or LO recoil. If it WASN'T frail, it'd be banned easily. This point achieves nothing, guys.


While I do have an opinion on ban/no ban I haven't got on the ladder yet so I don't see myself as having the right to have it be listened to :) so instead I'll just rebuke arguments and wish everyone a Happy Christmas, yay!
 
try perfect STAB coverage. the only other pokemon to have it is Mega Lopunny, who is limited to physical attacking sets only.
Thank you! Not only does it boast perfect neutral coverage like Lopunny, its super effective coverage is also ridiculous. Lopunny's HJK only hits dark, normal, rock and steel types for super effective damage. A standard Greninja set is hitting 9 or more types for 2X damage. And everything gets the a 50% STAB boost on top.

Protean is just a broken ability, and Greninja has the right stats and movepool to abuse it.
 
Banning Greninja is dumb. No seriously.
The Meta just needs to adapt to it and not just ban a Pokemon because it makes a Play style unviable. Heracross made stall pretty much unviable in X and Y and yet it wasn't banned!!!

Thundurus: a decent Pokemon that was slightly over powered but never got suspected.. The meta just adapted to it.

Mega Slowbro: Seriously? This set up defensive Pokemon could literally 6-0 teams just by coming in because of the match up. The Meta Adapted yet again, NP Celebii became more viable as did electric types.

In other words, we shouldn't ban Greninja. The Meta just needs to adapt.
See, things like Tentacruel and Empoleon and Porygon2 wouldn't really be run if Greninja wasn't around. Greninja being around helps create diversity in the metagame. Just adapt!
 
Banning Greninja is dumb. No seriously.
The Meta just needs to adapt to it and not just ban a Pokemon because it makes a Play style unviable. Heracross made stall pretty much unviable in X and Y and yet it wasn't banned!!!

Thundurus: a decent Pokemon that was slightly over powered but never got suspected.. The meta just adapted to it.

Mega Slowbro: Seriously? This set up defensive Pokemon could literally 6-0 teams just by coming in because of the match up. The Meta Adapted yet again, NP Celebii became more viable as did electric types.

In other words, we shouldn't ban Greninja. The Meta just needs to adapt.
See, things like Tentacruel and Empoleon and Porygon2 wouldn't really be run if Greninja wasn't around. Greninja being around helps create diversity in the metagame. Just adapt!
hey buddy, there's a distinct difference between diversity and the effects of overcentralization
also, there where people that managed to make successful stalls in the heracross era. just an fyi.
 
Well i agree with OrangeCrush101 point of view,people should have checks regarding it.I know Greninja is STRONG! but it can't run HP fire,Dark Pulse,Low Kick,Extrasensory,Ice Beam etc. in one moveset,SO ONE CAN GUESS THAT IT IS ATTACK OR SPECIAL ATTACK OR MIXED.Pranksters can cripple him with t-wave and then it is not a bad threat but a crippling Frog.Landorous-T or magnezone can kill it easily.Even Jolteon Can!

NOOBS DON'T UNDERSTAND THE META.WE DON'T WANT EVERYTHING TO GET BANNED IN OU AND THEN BECOME USELESS IN UBERS!!

HE SHOULD NOT BE BANNED!
LOTS OF sorry, lots of things can kill Greninja "easily". It's frail, we know that. So was Deoxys S, and Mega Lucario. If it wasn't frail it would be banned by now. The fact that it can be OHKOd by things isn't the issue. The point ISN'T that things can kill it when they're in safely, it's that they can't get in safely at all. Seriously, what do you switch into a Greninja that's attacking? Unless you plan to send something in *after* Greninja has ALREADY got a KO, at which point it can switch out and come back in later? It might not be able to run all those moves at once, but it doesn't have to. It's going to be taking out the Pokemon that can't already be taken out by its teammates. So how do you safely switch in to it, when your check can't risk being taken out because it's the only thing stopping one of Greninja's pals from sweeping?
 
For any of the reasonable people on the fence please go play like 20 games on the suspect ladder and notice the greater diversity in pokes. Or rather just try and build a team without worrying about you know what..
 
I remember at the start of the XY meta and near the end I saw Greninja as a viable threat which fit in place with the XY meta quite nicely and now with the newly made ORAS meta it seems to have changed my opinion slightly and here's why:
1: Get's rid of large threats such e.g making things like AV Azumarill pointless
2: It's starting to make Pokemon such as Porygon have OU viability-I'll explain my problem with that later.
3: It's harming the meta

While some people might say theres no use banning a Pokemon due to a meta-shift I'm going to go slightly back to the quickban of Mega Salamence. 2 words: Scarf Greninja. Thats enough meta-shit going on there. Anyway with the meta-shift changing as it is with Greninja we are seeing more pokemon like Porygon-2 and Empoleon etc which is unnecessary and as I said before, this is harmful to the meta. Now on to my next point-it's move pool. Before I continue with this I would just like to point out having 4MSS is not an excuse to keep Greninja in OU. This also reminds me of the recent Glailie and Pangoro bans in NU-while they weren't broken they certainly were harmful to the meta and there is the same scenario here. Greninja it self isn't broken however the effect it has on the meta is clearly a negative one.

Weenie paragraph number 2: There are 3 main types of play styles in ORAS, 1: Hyper Offensive 2: Stall 3: Balanced. Out of the 3 Greninja destroys both balanced and stall because in most HO teams there will rarely be a switch in to Greninja however there will be checks that can deal with it but rarely a counter. With Stall all Greninja has to do is take care of a pink blob and call it a day and this is relatively easy to do-honestly since when is a Chansey above 80%?

Tl;DR and conclusion
1: Extremely versatile + hard to deal with
2: Harmful for the meta
3: It brings in an unnecessary meta-shift

BAN

PS: To all those who say Greninja does not have 4MSS try running Dark pulse/Extrasensory/HP Fire/HP Grass/Hydro Pump/ Ice beam/ Gunk Shot/Low Kick and while you're at it run Origin Pulse as well.
 
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