np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]

[IHSAHN]

I see a lot of anti-ban arguments centered around this supposed 4MSS.. "run Low Kick, and you'd be walled by so and so"
People seem to be forgetting that Greninja isn't the only Pokémon on its team, and that it can simply opt to run whatever suits its team and the necessitated coverage move. Of course it can't cover the entire metagame with a single set, but that's really not the point when the coverage moves it picks are based on its team's very requirements!

 

[SapphSabre777]

Ah...this suspect test couldn't come sooner, to be very honest.

This Pokemon gives me flashbacks of Genesect, really solid flashbacks, and yet I can tell that Greninja is worse.

Protean, its Speed Tier and its moveset are one of the ingredients here. 123 Speed allows it to pretty much outspeed a giant majority of the threats it faces; also, thanks to ORAS, it got Gunk Shot and Low Kick, which makes this thing scary no matter what you run. It essentially can 2HKO the entire meta bar some very gimmicky Pokemon that are only in OU because Greninja exists (P2, I'm looking at you) and Scarfs.

By no means does Greninja have 4MSS, because it hits hard no matter what. Essentially, if you guess the wrong moveset, Greninja will weyleigh your team to the point-of-no-return, even if it isn't a "6-0." If you don't have anything to answer Greninja, good luck. If your opponent SIMPLY HAS Greninja, good luck. Because of this, I find Balance and Offense of any kind completely unviable simply because of Greninja.

Some others have mentioned this before, but the worst part about Greninja is that it can adapt to the tier that adapts to it. I won't go into too much detail about it since other (much better) representatives have touched on this. Leaving Greninja in OU would be catastrophic. We'd be better off calling OU the "Greninja Tier" because of it, if that were the case.

And to those that say it is frail, people have to remember that its type changes with Protean, meaning that you will lose a Pokemon if it even chooses a move that resists your move's type. Greninja has the choice of using Protean as a defensive buffer or simply switching out into one of its partners and resuming its destruction again when it so desires.

BAN, that is my Christmas wish.

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

Ah...this suspect test couldn't come sooner, to be very honest.

This Pokemon gives me flashbacks of Genesect, really solid flashbacks, and yet I can tell that Greninja is worse.

Protean, its Speed Tier and its moveset are one of the ingredients here. 123 Speed allows it to pretty much outspeed a giant majority of the threats it faces; also, thanks to ORAS, it got Gunk Shot and Low Kick, which makes this thing scary no matter what you run. It essentially can 2HKO the entire meta bar some very gimmicky Pokemon that are only in OU because Greninja exists (P2, I'm looking at you) and Scarfs.

By no means does Greninja have 4MSS, because it hits hard no matter what. Essentially, if you guess the wrong moveset, Greninja will weyleigh your team to the point-of-no-return, even if it isn't a "6-0." If you don't have anything to answer Greninja, good luck. If your opponent SIMPLY HAS Greninja, good luck. Because of this, I find Balance and Offense of any kind completely unviable simply because of Greninja.

Some others have mentioned this before, but the worst part about Greninja is that it can adapt to the tier that adapts to it. I won't go into too much detail about it since other (much better) representatives have touched on this. Leaving Greninja in OU would be catastrophic. We'd be better off calling OU the "Greninja Tier" because of it, if that were the case.

And to those that say it is frail, people have to remember that its type changes with Protean, meaning that you will lose a Pokemon if it even chooses a move that resists your move's type. Greninja has the choice of using Protean as a defensive buffer or simply switching out into one of its partners and resuming its destruction again when it so desires.
BAN, that is my Christmas wish.

Long time no see, huh? Anyway, I pretty much agree with this. If your team has no Greninja check, then you get wrecked by it, yes. But every team now has a Greninja check, or at least, should. But the problem is, your Greninja "check" could possibly be screwed over by one of Greninja's coverage moves. We don't know what moveset the Greninja is using, therefore a team's "check" for Greninja could become invalidated based on its moveset. Look at Ferrothorn. That gets mauled by Hidden Power Fire, but does pretty well versus the rest of Greninja's moveset bar Low Kick. Look at Azumarill. Of course every Greninja runs Gunk Shot now, but Azumarill does pretty well against the rest of its movepool. The problem is, there is no consistent check to Greninja. Porygon2 and such can wall it but it's so passive and has such average Sp. Attack that all it can do, really, is just float there.

0 SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 180-212 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can't even OHKO Greninja with coverage. But that might be a moot point as Porygon2's Special Attack is middling at best not to mention no STAB.

 

[Machi]

Everybody always does calculations against Greninja of it's original typing when Greninja is never going to be Water/Dark once it uses any move. The only time your Mach Punch will work is when it comes in, which it'll never do, or it KOed something with Dark Pulse. And even then, it can just switch out.

Or better yet let us not forget about Spikes Greninja, it may not be the most optimal set now but it does show case what you mean by using Protean to its advantage to play around with its typing (it certainly was viable and was what helped to push it to S rank back then). Essentially it is hard to actually hit Greninja with the appropriate move, if it even allows you to do so.

 

[GranThorino]

BAN

greninja with the physical set , now it is much more
unpredictable and has the option of placing the hazards. Gunk Shot and Low Kick are two moves that favor the bullet to hit the strong counter the special set .

 

[Celticpride]

Wasn’t going to post in this thread, but I’ll give it a shot.

I’ll start off by saying that I am biased towards Greninja being banned, and I think it’s by far the biggest issue in the current metagame. I am biased towards Greninja being banned because I primarily play balanced, or sometimes bulky offense. As has been said by others, Greninja rips those teams apart. Easily. I don’t think a lot of you who post in this thread really understand how balance works tbh. It’s not just slapping SkarmBliss with four sweepers together and calling it a day. No, balance revolves around building a defensive core* that is usually type-based in nature. FWG cores (and DSF cores now) are the simplest examples of this. Few things in the meta can completely break down these defensive cores all by themselves, and the ones that do that well usually have low enough speed (Mega Heracross) or usable checks and counters (Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham) to handle or revenge those threats in a suitable manner. The difference with Gren is that it has such a wide movepool, level of power, and speed that it’s much harder to revenge. Not impossible, but much harder.

A second issue I have with Greninja is that it doesn’t have to 6-0 a team to be effective. All it has to do is force and eliminate a check that is weak to x move when you have x move. If Low Kick Greninja eliminates Ferrothorn, the real danger isn’t Greninja anymore, it’s the Gyarados that happens to be waiting. If Extrasenory/Dark Pulse Greninja eliminates Mega Venu/Slowbro, the real danger isn’t Greninja, it’s the Keldeo waiting in back to run wild. I’ve said it before in this thread, the most dangerous part of Gren isn’t Gren by itself, it’s Gren + Metagross/Pinsir/Lopunny/Gallade/Altaria/Char-X. It's also able to perform this role with multiple different offensive threats at the same time. The unknown and customizable nature of Gren’s moves means it’s supremely good at doing this job. Shades of Mega Gengar, but not nearly as bad.

Onto other arguments I’ve heard that I don’t agree with. Gren doesn’t have 4MSS. That implies that either you have two or three required moves (think Lucario with CC, ESpeed, and SD), or you have a ton of checks that are weak to one specific move (think Mega TTar and its endless coverage moves). Gren really only consistently carries Ice Beam, even Gunk Shot isn’t required. The other thing this is that none of the coverage moves are mutually exclusive with each other, outside of Low Kick and HP Fire. When Gren uses Extrasensory, you don’t learn jack about the other three moves. This really isn't the case with most other top-tier threats.

The “just sack something” argument holds no water. Gren can and will switch out. If you sack something to bring in a Scarfer to kill Gren, the most likely scenario is that you have a Scarfer locked into a bad move and you’re down a mon.

With all that being said, I will vote Ban if I reach the reqs (which during holidays seems unlikely). Gren seems very unhealthy for the Meta, AM outlined it's polarizing nature perfectly. Not everyone wants to play boring stall or reckless HO. Is Greninja as outright unhealthy as the past suspects? I don't think so. Doesn't mean it's not unhealthy.

*Couldn’t really fit this in easily so I’m putting in down here. Typical defensive core mons on balance either:

1. Hit hard for being defensive (think SDef Char-X, Heatran, Mega Altaria, Mega Scizor)
2. Have Regenerator (Slowbro, Tangrowth)
3. Offer significant utility support in addition to being defensive (Support Clefable, Ferrothorn)

The typical defensive answers to Gren are honestly far too passive to be used effectively on balance. You don’t want your defensive core to be set-up bait. Most, if not all, of the typical Gren checks are just too passive.

 

[Dizzybanana21x]

Im not a huge player in OU, though I've done decently on the ladder every now and then. Greninja is just way too easy to use and it does limit team building. I honestly have to dedicate some niche pokemon to counter it, or have many revenge killers to sack him once hes already sacked one of mine..

Btw, I've read through all the posts and I've not seen any anti-ban arguments that are convincing. The whole 4MSS is irrelevant. If you could reliably know all 4 moves before the battle, then it would make sense. But you don't. You have to scout its moves and potentially sack of one of your 'mons before knowing if your "checks" can actually deal with it.

(And on other sites, i can't tell you how many idiots keep going on and on about how it will suck in Ubers... like that has any relevance to OU)

 

[Creator of Chaos]

Will people please stop mentioning that it will suck it ubers. That is not relavent to the debate and I could not care less weather your precious frog struggles beat a Ho-oh, Gets set up on by Grouden or gets smashed by mega-mawile. Never is a pokemons viability in another Tier relavent to weather its broken in OU and it never will be a relavent point. So just stop

Anyway My opinion on Greninja. Well first off Im not the best player around and half the guys that have posted in this thread could probably trounce me in a game if they so chose to. But why does it matter? Well because no matter how skilled you are anyone should see just how broken this frog is and if you dont its likely because you dont want to give up your Swiss army knife. There is literally nothing else in the OU tier like it. Nothing comes close to its potential getting stab on everything, Insane speed, turning Every move into mindgame's and imposing unfair restriction's on team building not seen in the game since Genesect forced everyone to use wierd natures to beat it. I would argue Aegisslash allowed for more variety then what the frog does now and he atleast a few true checks and counters that could reliably swtich in Where as frog does not.

Think That Fairies will aid you. Nope Gren used Gunk Shot. Praying that Venu and Tentacruel can wall it turns out to be carrying Extrasenory instead. Chansey? Loses if it has taken any prior dmg. Ferro, HP fire. Emploeon. Turns out this player was using lowkick. Even scarfer's or fast megas cant be garanteed a revenge kill because Greninja can troll them with a Choice scarf of its own and now your lando is dead alongside your sacked Gothitelle and in the process you have lost the game. All thats left as Counters are Niche stuff Like Umbreon Who's unranked and outclassed at everything except beating greninja, SPDEF G-dos who would not be seen on Offensive teams and Porygon 2 who cant do much more then float after beating gren and even these 3 can be trolled by Spikes or U-turn.
Basically any reasonable Check an Offense or balanced team could use is rendered Unviable thanks to a combination of 4MSS in its favour and the mindgames it Creates or There so Niche it hurts you in other area's. And before someone Mentions BW Hydreigon as a pokemon that had no real viable counters. That thing relied on choice items to do what it done and either died afterwards or was forced out giving the oppenent momentoum. 2 Facts Gren does not worry about allowing it to easily clean teams or blow open huge holes while you struggle to check it.

To put Simply the meta has been bent to the Will of Greninja and no matter what wierd Pokemon you throw at it The frog will adapt and do whatever the player please's to the Point its nearly Rendered Hyper Offense unvaible and restricted Balance threw its Omni-presence in the same way Aegisslash made every psychic bar Gothitelle a liability. That alone should speak volumes of why its not healthy. It places an unfair burden on team builders through a lack of counters, creates unhealthy amounts of mindgames through its unpredictability and can 2hko/OHKO most of the meta. So with that I say it should be banned!

 

[Kurona]

Not even entirely sure why people are implying Greninja will be useless in ubers because it's B- in the viability rankings there. Not very high but by god, it's viable

Meanwhile, in it's current perch of S-rank it's wrecking every single thing that gives it's team trouble without issue. It's literally the stupid button of teambuilding -- if you see a glaring weakness in your team, you don't have to think. Just pick Greninja as it beats pretty much every Pokémon your team can't. This, in my opinion, promotes very lazy and uncreative teambuilding, and while I'm aware that's not a good argument... it really doesn't feel right and shifts away from the vast and varied meta we had in post-mawile XY Meta, giving people a lot of "All OU teams are the same" ammunition.

Onto actual real problems, I did touch upon this a little in the last paragraph -- it's very easy to slap on the end of your team. Too easy. People keep saying and people keep highlighting it, it's not Greninja itself that's directly the problem - unlike most other bans that have happened in the past, Greninja doesn't make it easy for itself to sweep with some support from other members. It instead makes it easy for other members to sweep with some support from Greninja. That's the big problem here. Greninja is more of a power-up than a direct threat, if that makes any sense.

 

[CountNeko]

It'll never happen because Smogon doesn't do complex bans, but just ban Protean. Nobody uses Protean Kecleon anyway, and it's honestly the one tipping point that makes Greninja completely broken because it can just transform it's type and adapt to whatever you send in to counter it anyway. I think it makes more sense than getting rid of the frog outright rather than just throwing a total ban on it. If Smogon can ban the mega of a Pokemon but not the Pokemon itself, why can't it ban a specific ability or iteration of Greninja?

 

[Dizzybanana21x]

People should understand that no single pokemon should bend the entire metagame to its will. No single pokemon should cause people to dedicate 1-2 slots for "checks". No single pokemon should render entire playing styles unviable.

Yea, there are obscure counters. However, most are not great pokemon. And, besides P2, if any become popular, Greninja will just shift its moves to defeat it too. That or you can just simply add another pokemon to counter it.

Its not about whether or not Greninja 1-1 can beat everyone. Its about its effect on the entire tier as a whole.

It'll never happen because Smogon doesn't do complex bans, but just ban Protean. Nobody uses Protean Kecleon anyway, and it's honestly the one tipping point that makes Greninja completely broken because it can just transform it's type and adapt to whatever you send in to counter it anyway. I think it makes more sense than getting rid of the frog outright rather than just throwing a total ban on it. If Smogon can ban the mega of a Pokemon but not the Pokemon itself, why can't it ban a specific ability or iteration of Greninja?

Because banning a mega is simply an item ban.

 

[Eldrake]

It'll never happen because Smogon doesn't do complex bans, but just ban Protean. Nobody uses Protean Kecleon anyway, and it's honestly the one tipping point that makes Greninja completely broken because it can just transform it's type and adapt to whatever you send in to counter it anyway. I think it makes more sense than getting rid of the frog outright rather than just throwing a total ban on it. If Smogon can ban the mega of a Pokemon but not the Pokemon itself, why can't it ban a specific ability or iteration of Greninja?

Banning Megastones is way different. They're banned in the same way that Soul Dew is banned.

 

[Machi]

It'll never happen because Smogon doesn't do complex bans, but just ban Protean. Nobody uses Protean Kecleon anyway, and it's honestly the one tipping point that makes Greninja completely broken because it can just transform it's type and adapt to whatever you send in to counter it anyway. I think it makes more sense than getting rid of the frog outright rather than just throwing a total ban on it. If Smogon can ban the mega of a Pokemon but not the Pokemon itself, why can't it ban a specific ability or iteration of Greninja?

This has been reiterated many times in the previous suspect test, you can even check around this thread for the reasoning, but long story short Protean not being broken on Kecleon is precisely why it isn't an option as he is evidence against Protean auto-breaking everything, e.g. Moody (auto-breaks even crappy Pokemon). Clearly Greninja interacts and utilizes Protean in a more unique manner in conjunction with his movepool + stats.

 

[p2]

It'll never happen because Smogon doesn't do complex bans, but just ban Protean. Nobody uses Protean Kecleon anyway, and it's honestly the one tipping point that makes Greninja completely broken because it can just transform it's type and adapt to whatever you send in to counter it anyway. I think it makes more sense than getting rid of the frog outright rather than just throwing a total ban on it. If Smogon can ban the mega of a Pokemon but not the Pokemon itself, why can't it ban a specific ability or iteration of Greninja?

Plenty of people that play NU and lower use Protean Kecleon and Frogadier, banning Protean isn't a good idea at all

 

[Zebstrika]

These 4MSS arguments are silly, what is Greninja's opponent supposed to do, knowing that Greninja can't cover the whole metagame in one set? That doesn't stop Greninja from being able to cover an entire team of 6 pokemon in one set (yeah, Greninja may only get 4 moves and not its whole movepool to cover the whole metagame, but the opponent only gets 6 pokemon and not the whole metagame to cover Greninja's whole movepool). And if by some crap luck it runs a set that beats your whole team, there's nothing you can do about it, except change your team up, only so that a different Greninja set can ravage that team instead.

You can't even make the argument that 4MSS means that you can choose 2 complementary checks that will cover Greninja. You can run Mega Venusaur, to take on Greninja w/o Extrasensory, alongside Empoleon, to beat Greninja w/o Low Kick, but then what do you do when you run into a Greninja with both Extrasensory and Low Kick on the same set? Add in a third check?

That's ridiculous, especially considering that out of your three checks, only one of them is actually beating this Greninja, and you don't even know which one it is until Greninja uses all of its attacks...obviously, if you have let use all its attacks, it's probably too late anyways.

Porygon2 and such can wall it but it's so passive and has such average Sp. Attack that all it can do, really, is just float there.

0 SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 180-212 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can't even OHKO Greninja with coverage. But that might be a moot point as Porygon2's Special Attack is middling at best not to mention no STAB.

Actually, Porygon2 really does get STAB because it traces protean ;)

 

[WoHenRe]

OK, a few things to note:
1) The fact that Greninja is the most viable pokemon in the tier does not warrant a ban. Since there will always be 1 pokemon who is best in the tier, if you use this argument for one pokemon, then you must use it for all eventually, and thus all pokemon will get banned from OU. In fact, this rather should be a prerequisite for a suspect test (unless all the stuff above it is all being suspect tested too).
2) It isn't as if Greninja lacks very common checks. Something like scarf landorus-T can switch in, then proceed to use U-turn does 67.8-80.4% damage on it if greninja is still a dark type, and greninja will then likely either die to another priority user of mine of from its own life orb recoil. You also have things like manaphy, which gets you the hilarious:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (20 BP) vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 73-88 (20.2 - 24.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Of course, Greninja has better options on most sets, but you can't really get better than:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 144-172 (39.8 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
During which time manaphy has the power to do something like either:
-Raindance + rest = Manaphy can ironically set up and do whatever it pleases against greninja
-Surf x2 = KO
3) Greninja can only have 4 moves. Sure, if it carries any particular move, it destroy a given threat, but lets look at it this way:
-No low kick? Chansey
-No HP fire? Scizor/ferrorthorn.
-No Ice beam? (insert your favourite hard hitting dragon type here) + Mega pinsir
-No gunk shot? Azumarill/other fairy types
-No dark pulse? Manaphy/Mega metagross rise from checks to counters, in addition to other
-No extrasensory? Keledeo/ Other strong fighting types

While you may not know for certain what it carries, its not like you need to either, as it isn't gonna rip through your entire team just because you don't have a counter on the field.

Its also not fair to say that "no pokemon should render entire play styles unviable". Baton pass was an "entire play style", yet people had no problems banning it.

 

[thesecondbest]

To the no switchin argument- Can anything come in on mega metagross with grass knot either? That's a stupid argument. OU is a tier of checking stuff. If your team doesn't have a scarfer you deserve to lose anyway. Your opponents Greninja can't really "Get a kill every time it comes in" because it takes life orb and hazards damage and can be forced out by priority scarfers or the new faster megas.
To All of the idiots without a damage calculator-
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 221-265 (34.4 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (I don't call that beating it)
Even 252 neutral nature isn't enough for a guaranteed 2HKO after rocks.
Everyone saying P2 sucks clearly doesn't use it. It can trace any ability and becomes quite the usable pokemon. It can easily run a spread to the point where it beats greninja better than chansey. I run Twave Ice beam TriAttack and Recover and it puts in a lot of work. I still remember aim's upload where it 6-0d one team. A lot of stuff has difficulty 2HKOing it.
But back to greninja. It has to run obscure shit to beat its former counters, but then it can't rip through offense. Can a greninja with Low Kick, Gunk, Extrasensory, and Hidden Power Grass power through Rotom, Azu, Keldeo, and Kube? Yes. But then it cant fire off ice beams because it's already dedicated it's 4 MSS

tl;dr NO BAN
It's Like King Hydra in UU (They both get U-turn btw. The more you know) and in a way genesect. Genesect sure as hell didn't deserved to be banned, Hydra isn't even getting tested, so why ban ninja?

And now to refute the average bandwagoner's post: (sorry Dizzybanana21x)

"People should understand that no single pokemon should bend the entire metagame to its will. No single pokemon should cause people to dedicate 1-2 slots for "checks". No single pokemon should render entire playing styles unviable.

Yea, there are obscure counters. However, most are not great pokemon. And, besides P2, if any become popular, Greninja will just shift its moves to defeat it too. That or you can just simply add another pokemon to counter it.

Its not about whether or not Greninja 1-1 can beat everyone. Its about its effect on the entire tier as a whole."

What playstyle is it rendering unviable, no scarfer hyper offense? I argue without it Hyper offense will die out.
P2 is not obscure, Chansey is good, I haven't even mentioned Gyarados yet. All of those are HARD COUNTERS (unless you run garbage hp electric for gyarados). The point is banners are just people with bad teams who lose to it on the ladder. Do't listen to them.

Now BRB i gotta get some COIL

 

[Da Pizza Man]

To the no switchin argument- Can anything come in on mega metagross with grass knot either? That's a stupid argument. OU is a tier of checking stuff. If your team doesn't have a scarfer you deserve to lose anyway. Your opponents Greninja can't really "Get a kill every time it comes in" because it takes life orb and hazards damage and can be forced out by priority scarfers or the new faster megas.
To All of the idiots without a damage calculator-
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 221-265 (34.4 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (I don't call that beating it)
Even 252 neutral nature isn't enough for a guaranteed 2HKO after rocks.
Everyone saying P2 sucks clearly doesn't use it. It can trace any ability and becomes quite the usable pokemon. It can easily run a spread to the point where it beats greninja better than chansey. I run Twave Ice beam TriAttack and Recover and it puts in a lot of work. I still remember aim's upload where it 6-0d one team. A lot of stuff has difficulty 2HKOing it.
But back to greninja. It has to run obscure shit to beat its former counters, but then it can't rip through offense. Can a greninja with Low Kick, Gunk, Extrasensory, and Hidden Power Grass power through Rotom, Azu, Keldeo, and Kube? Yes. But then it cant fire off ice beams because it's already dedicated it's 4 MSS

tl;dr NO BAN
It's Like King Hydra in UU (They both get U-turn btw. The more you know) and in a way genesect. Genesect sure as hell didn't deserved to be banned, Hydra isn't even getting tested, so why ban ninja?

And now to refute the average bandwagoner's post: (sorry Dizzybanana21x)

"People should understand that no single pokemon should bend the entire metagame to its will. No single pokemon should cause people to dedicate 1-2 slots for "checks". No single pokemon should render entire playing styles unviable.

Yea, there are obscure counters. However, most are not great pokemon. And, besides P2, if any become popular, Greninja will just shift its moves to defeat it too. That or you can just simply add another pokemon to counter it.

Its not about whether or not Greninja 1-1 can beat everyone. Its about its effect on the entire tier as a whole."

What playstyle is it rendering unviable, no scarfer hyper offense? I argue without it Hyper offense will die out.
P2 is not obscure, Chansey is good, I haven't even mentioned Gyarados yet. All of those are HARD COUNTERS (unless you run garbage hp electric for gyarados). The point is banners are just people with bad teams who lose to it on the ladder. Do't listen to them.

The fact that you said Porygon2, Gyarados, and Chansey hard counter Greninja prove you don't know what your talking about, also most of the pokemon who can check Greninja like this are complexly unusable on Hyper Offense

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

just going to double post this from the vr thread

Ok I will try and do bullet points here to outline my points better because I usually just ramble on. I will start by saying that I think this is the least threatening suspect we have had for a good while.

-greninja has a standard moveset that is "optimal", all the other moves that people act like are on every greninja, are lures. So greninja has to sacrifice an optimal moveset to typically hit 1-2 mons, this is no different to me than latios, he has an optimal moveset but can also run a lure set like earthquake/hp fire/draco which allows him to easily dismantle common balance cores or it could just lure in mons that think they can safely switchin. This trait is not limited to these two, even thundurus-i can have grass knot/knock off/incinerate/superpower/psychic all of which make him sacrifice his optimal moveset in order to better hit 1-2 mons. This has always been a trait that the top tier offensive pokemon carry and I find it in no way broken.

-All of the arguments are starting under the assumption that greninja got in safely, so in order for this to happen either greninja needs to wait for something on his own team to die, or he needs to be brought in through slow volt-turns.( these are the ways he can SAFELY be brought in you could say he can be brought in through smart double switching and I can just as easily say that I would predict that and OHKO greninja) In the first scenario greninja will come in after one of his own teammates dies and then just attempt to kill off one mon, so even worst case scenario greninja will just end up trading kills. In the second scenario of needing volt-turn, that is requiring team support(albeit easy to find team support in things like rotom and land-t) but it is showing that greninja is not taking on the world by himself. The only time I have struggled against greninja is when I was already struggling in the battle, I never feel like it is unfair I had to sack a mon I feel like I didnt play as well as I should and thats why he won.

-I dont ever feel like I am at an immediate disadvantage just because I see greninja on the other team. Granted I typically play HO, but I have seen people vastly overstate greninja's capabilities against offense, I mean every offensive teams has mons that naturally outspeed greninja, scarfers, priority, and on top of that greninja can not find a time to enter the game, even if he gets brought in through slow volt-turn that means their volt-turner just took a massive hit and the offensive team will have no problem just sacking something to greninja and carrying on. Ill quote Destiny Device here
2) it is almost impossible to switch into with offensive teams
so I can think of probably 80 things that offensive teams can not switch into, offensive teams do not try to have switchins for everything, they focus on keeping up their momentum so things like greninja dont get a free turn, if greninja does get a free turn that probably means they got outplayed and deserve to be put into a stickier situation. I also think that "impossible" is too strong, bisharp is a pretty reliable switchin for greninja on offensive teams, I mean if azumarill, gengar, garchomp,latios,etc.. are out on the field and gren is trying to revenge kill it would be incredibly risky for the greninja user to use low kick, I am not saying its full proof but honestly what is? I mean you can reasonably predict what move greninja is going to go for and it turns into something like an 80/20 in your favor. But yeah bisharp can switch into most moves of greninja and then threaten it out with a sucker punch, obviously you would weigh the risk of the greninja user predicting that but HO is a high risk high reward play style.

- as for greninja's matchup against stall this is where the overcentralization argument comes into play, I am pretty sure overcentralization isnt grounds enough to ban(or I at least heard that plenty of times in the aegi thread), and I guess I agree somewhat because there will always be top tier threats that need to be prepared for. But I mean I just do not see greninja ever putting in work against a stall team, I dont care what you guys say, chansey is a greninja counter. period. Chansey can run 252hp and def and that hardly scarficies its special bulk, and allows her to handle greninja. I dont think having chansey being required on stall teams is exactly a grounds to ban something this fat b*&#@ is everywhere, but there are also things like tentacruel who naturally pairs well with sableye(the best stall mega) who can absorb the toxic spikes and spin away spikes, all while walling greninja. Alomomomola is a good stall mon that handles it well, and honestly just bulky waters in general, the fact is scouting with a stall team is easy, I mean their are regnerator mons, wish support, reliable recovery EVERYWHERE on a stall team. They can afford to scout out, and all the while greninja is taking damage from his LO and potentially hazards. I just can not see an argument that shows greninja has an unfair advantage over stall teams.

-if you hate me by now I understand, but here is where I was going to insert my opinion on how greninja handles balance, but Jukain literally worded it perfectly so just pretend what he wrote up there goes in this bullet point. This is literally the only reason that makes greninja banworthy, he just simply invalidates balance teams, and there is no way to dance around that fact.

So to sum this up, I dont think greninja should be banned because he has the option to run lure sets, that trait is possessed by many mons. I dont think he should be banned because he has "no counters", because against HO teams that is irrelevant as they dont need switchins for everything, and its irrelevant against stall teams because they do have counters for greninja, it just requires a little scouting which stall can afford to do. I think greninja needs to be banned because he has an unhealthy effect on the metagame by making it impossible to effectively use balance teams, he promotes either very offensive teams, or very defensive teams and this is very restrictive and not a sign of a healthy metagame. So although you may have thought I was anti-ban I will conclude this by saying BAN THE TURTLE!

p.s. please dont catch me on technicalities, I may have worded things slightly wrong but just try to take away the main points, I dont want to quibble over details.

Also I want to say that if you want greninja to stay in OU, in otherwords are anti-ban, then you need to address the main issue, and that is greninjas ability to destroy balance and make the whole playstyle essentially unusuable. If you can convince people that greninja is not broken verse balance teams you may change some minds, but that is no easy task.

 

[thesecondbest]

The fact that you said Porygon2 and Chansey hard counter Greninja prove you don't know what your talking about

The Fact that you say that make one of the people without a damage calculator. You should get one for christmas.
https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/ btw

 

[Vengeance417]

Not even entirely sure why people are implying Greninja will be useless in ubers because it's B- in the viability rankings there. Not very high but by god, it's viable

Meanwhile, in it's current perch of S-rank it's wrecking every single thing that gives it's team trouble without issue. It's literally the stupid button of teambuilding -- if you see a glaring weakness in your team, you don't have to think. Just pick Greninja as it beats pretty much every Pokémon your team can't. This, in my opinion, promotes very lazy and uncreative teambuilding, and while I'm aware that's not a good argument... it really doesn't feel right and shifts away from the vast and varied meta we had in post-mawile XY Meta, giving people a lot of "All OU teams are the same" ammunition.

Onto actual real problems, I did touch upon this a little in the last paragraph -- it's very easy to slap on the end of your team. Too easy. People keep saying and people keep highlighting it, it's not Greninja itself that's directly the problem - unlike most other bans that have happened in the past, Greninja doesn't make it easy for itself to sweep with some support from other members. It instead makes it easy for other members to sweep with some support from Greninja. That's the big problem here. Greninja is more of a power-up than a direct threat, if that makes any sense.

I've been waiting for someone to say something along these lines since I couldn't find the right words to describe this concept. Thanks Kurona <3

People on the anti-ban side are thinking that Greninja is the Pokemon that each team using one builds around and is the main sweeper of the team.

Well, you're wrong.

Greninja is the ultimate hitman, a hired gun, a ninja. His 5 other teammates assign Greninja his targets. Once he assesses what his team can't get past, he adjusts his loadout to accommodate the team.

Greninja is then paid in both victory and ladder points once the job is done.

Yes, Greninja can sweep teams when given the chance, but Greninja, at heart, is the ultimate offensive utility mon. While other Pokemon can also run coverage moves to help with the team, none can do better than Greninja, who outspeeds a large portion of the metagame not counting scarfers and gains STAB for every attack.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

The Fact that you say that make one of the people without a damage calculator. You should get one for christmas.
https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/ btw

Yeah I used it, and just so you know Greninja can poison Chansey with Gunk Shot, and hit both Gyarados and Porygon2 with Low Kick (Gunk shot if the former is not mega)

It's surely one of the best stallbreaker, special sweeper the OU have, but the metagame don't need his ban. Snorlax, Florges and Chansey counter it easily. After that there is the scarfer or Talonflame who can RK it really easily.

So I vote no for this ban useless in my opinion

No, both Snorlax and Florges die easily to a Low Kick/Gunk Shot respectivly, and Chansey only checks Greninja, it does not counter it at all

 

[Cogito]

OK, a few things to note:
1) The fact that Greninja is the most viable pokemon in the tier does not warrant a ban. Since there will always be 1 pokemon who is best in the tier, if you use this argument for one pokemon, then you must use it for all eventually, and thus all pokemon will get banned from OU. In fact, this rather should be a prerequisite for a suspect test (unless all the stuff above it is all being suspect tested too).
2) It isn't as if Greninja lacks very common checks. Something like scarf landorus-T can switch in, then proceed to use U-turn does 67.8-80.4% damage on it if greninja is still a dark type, and greninja will then likely either die to another priority user of mine of from its own life orb recoil. You also have things like manaphy, which gets you the hilarious:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (20 BP) vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 73-88 (20.2 - 24.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Of course, Greninja has better options on most sets, but you can't really get better than:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 144-172 (39.8 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
During which time manaphy has the power to do something like either:
-Raindance + rest = Manaphy can ironically set up and do whatever it pleases against greninja
-Surf x2 = KO
3) Greninja can only have 4 moves. Sure, if it carries any particular move, it destroy a given threat, but lets look at it this way:
-No low kick? Chansey
-No HP fire? Scizor/ferrorthorn.
-No Ice beam? (insert your favourite hard hitting dragon type here) + Mega pinsir
-No gunk shot? Azumarill/other fairy types
-No dark pulse? Manaphy/Mega metagross rise from checks to counters, in addition to other
-No extrasensory? Keledeo/ Other strong fighting types

While you may not know for certain what it carries, its not like you need to either, as it isn't gonna rip through your entire team just because you don't have a counter on the field.

Its also not fair to say that "no pokemon should render entire play styles unviable". Baton pass was an "entire play style", yet people had no problems banning it.

That argument doesn't work because your argument is in effect "just plug in this pokemon to deal with" when suspect testing doesn't care about whether a person can deal with a particular pokemon but rather does it alter the metagame in a negative fashion. And the answer is yes.

Look at all those pokemon you named and this is barring the particular Greninja you are facing doesn't have the move to take you out. The fact that you have to pick and choose from all those sets of pokemon and arrange in them in a way to counter 1 pokemon tells us all we need to know.

All Greninja has to do is surprise you just once with a move and you are in really big trouble. Even then you won't know all its movesets and so you have keep on scouting before you can properly handle it. Then after handling it and smiling to yourself, you realize that you have to face 5 other really strong OU pokemon to win the match.

It is a menace to the tier and predicting/scouting/running odd EV spreads just to check this frog is a pain in the ass to the entire OU metagame. Ban him.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

If Greninja is against gyarados, gyarados uses ddance first, followed by earthquake. If you give gyarados 216 speed EV's and an adamant nature, it outspeeds greninja after 1 dragon dance, and can proceed to OHKO it if it doesn't switch out.

He said it hard counters Greninja, and I said that it only checks it (And it can't evens switch into Gunk Shot) not that Greninja can always take out Gyarados

Here are some calcs without Stealth Rock

Moxie:
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 203-239 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Intimidate:
-1 40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 136-161 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Keep in mind Gunk Shot's 30% chance to poison)

 

[haunter]

Seriously guys, if you really think that Florges and Snorlax can stop Greninja, then you shouldn't be posting in this thread. While it's Christmas and we're all nicer during these days, don't abuse my patience. Thank you very much.