just going to double post this from the vr thread
Ok I will try and do bullet points here to outline my points better because I usually just ramble on. I will start by saying that I think this is the least threatening suspect we have had for a good while.
-greninja has a standard moveset that is "optimal", all the other moves that people act like are on every greninja, are lures. So greninja has to sacrifice an optimal moveset to typically hit 1-2 mons, this is no different to me than latios, he has an optimal moveset but can also run a lure set like earthquake/hp fire/draco which allows him to easily dismantle common balance cores or it could just lure in mons that think they can safely switchin. This trait is not limited to these two, even thundurus-i can have grass knot/knock off/incinerate/superpower/psychic all of which make him sacrifice his optimal moveset in order to better hit 1-2 mons. This has always been a trait that the top tier offensive pokemon carry and I find it in no way broken.
-All of the arguments are starting under the assumption that greninja got in safely, so in order for this to happen either greninja needs to wait for something on his own team to die, or he needs to be brought in through slow volt-turns.( these are the ways he can SAFELY be brought in you could say he can be brought in through smart double switching and I can just as easily say that I would predict that and OHKO greninja) In the first scenario greninja will come in after one of his own teammates dies and then just attempt to kill off one mon, so even worst case scenario greninja will just end up trading kills. In the second scenario of needing volt-turn, that is requiring team support(albeit easy to find team support in things like rotom and land-t) but it is showing that greninja is not taking on the world by himself. The only time I have struggled against greninja is when I was already struggling in the battle, I never feel like it is unfair I had to sack a mon I feel like I didnt play as well as I should and thats why he won.
-I dont ever feel like I am at an immediate disadvantage just because I see greninja on the other team. Granted I typically play HO, but I have seen people vastly overstate greninja's capabilities against offense, I mean every offensive teams has mons that naturally outspeed greninja, scarfers, priority, and on top of that greninja can not find a time to enter the game, even if he gets brought in through slow volt-turn that means their volt-turner just took a massive hit and the offensive team will have no problem just sacking something to greninja and carrying on. Ill quote
Destiny Device here
2) it is almost impossible to switch into with offensive teams
so I can think of probably 80 things that offensive teams can not switch into, offensive teams do not try to have switchins for everything, they focus on keeping up their momentum so things like greninja dont get a free turn, if greninja does get a free turn that probably means they got outplayed and deserve to be put into a stickier situation. I also think that "impossible" is too strong, bisharp is a pretty reliable switchin for greninja on offensive teams, I mean if azumarill, gengar, garchomp,latios,etc.. are out on the field and gren is trying to revenge kill it would be incredibly risky for the greninja user to use low kick, I am not saying its full proof but honestly what is? I mean you can reasonably predict what move greninja is going to go for and it turns into something like an 80/20 in your favor. But yeah bisharp can switch into most moves of greninja and then threaten it out with a sucker punch, obviously you would weigh the risk of the greninja user predicting that but HO is a high risk high reward play style.
- as for greninja's matchup against stall this is where the overcentralization argument comes into play, I am pretty sure overcentralization isnt grounds enough to ban(or I at least heard that plenty of times in the aegi thread), and I guess I agree somewhat because there will always be top tier threats that need to be prepared for. But I mean I just do not see greninja ever putting in work against a stall team, I dont care what you guys say, chansey is a greninja counter. period. Chansey can run 252hp and def and that hardly scarficies its special bulk, and allows her to handle greninja. I dont think having chansey being required on stall teams is exactly a grounds to ban something this fat b*&#@ is everywhere, but there are also things like tentacruel who naturally pairs well with sableye(the best stall mega) who can absorb the toxic spikes and spin away spikes, all while walling greninja. Alomomomola is a good stall mon that handles it well, and honestly just bulky waters in general, the fact is scouting with a stall team is easy, I mean their are regnerator mons, wish support, reliable recovery EVERYWHERE on a stall team. They can afford to scout out, and all the while greninja is taking damage from his LO and potentially hazards. I just can not see an argument that shows greninja has an unfair advantage over stall teams.
-if you hate me by now I understand, but here is where I was going to insert my opinion on how greninja handles balance, but
Jukain literally worded it perfectly so just pretend what he wrote up there goes in this bullet point. This is literally the only reason that makes greninja banworthy, he just simply invalidates balance teams, and there is no way to dance around that fact.
So to sum this up, I dont think greninja should be banned because he has the option to run lure sets, that trait is possessed by many mons. I dont think he should be banned because he has "no counters", because against HO teams that is irrelevant as they dont need switchins for everything, and its irrelevant against stall teams because they do have counters for greninja, it just requires a little scouting which stall can afford to do. I think greninja needs to be banned because he has an unhealthy effect on the metagame by making it impossible to effectively use balance teams, he promotes either very offensive teams, or very defensive teams and this is very restrictive and not a sign of a healthy metagame. So although you may have thought I was anti-ban I will conclude this by saying
BAN THE TURTLE!
p.s. please dont catch me on technicalities, I may have worded things slightly wrong but just try to take away the main points, I dont want to quibble over details.
Also I want to say that if you want greninja to stay in OU, in otherwords are anti-ban, then you need to address the main issue, and that is greninjas ability to destroy balance and make the whole playstyle essentially unusuable. If you can convince people that greninja is not broken verse balance teams you may change some minds, but that is no easy task.