np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Alienation of the Wretched

[Baharoth]

In the end, they are often forced to sacrifice a Pokemon in order to Defog.

Considering that the HO player sacrificed Deo-D to get the Hazards up its fine if you have to sac something to get your defog/rapid spin, your still even with the opponent. However, if you manage to get defog off without losing something you have the edge and with smart plays thats easily possible. Given how predictable HO is you can make it even worse for them. Example, Sub Punch Mawile as a lead and HP fighting Latios as a defogger. Mawile attacks round 1, if there is no red card/taunt set up a sub on turn 2 and kill deo in turn 3. That way you basicly start the match 6 vs 4 as the opponent pays for every layer of spikes with one poke. Then you get Latios in on lando or something and kill Bisharp on the obvious switch in with HP fighting (the HO player is forced to bring Bisharp in against a defogger otherwise he risks losing his hazards for nothing) then proceed to defog. That way you would have a 6 to 3 lead without any hazards on the field, show me an HO team that comes back from that.

I know thats a specific scenario but the point i am trying to make is that its not only possible to deal with Deo-D without falling behind, its even possible to take advantage of it to the point where you have an autowin against HO and you dont need some gimmick sets/mons for that, i am talking about A and S rank threats that can do that.

 

[Jaffa Ball]

I'm pretty certain both are easily ban worthy, and that they will be banned, but I feel the need to rehash some arguments because people are forgetting things.

Deo-S needs to be banned because all of its sets are flat out amazing and can make a team on their own, but the issue is the same as MegaLuke and even Genesect; you can have checks to some of its sets, but if you guess wrong, you're screwed.

Deo-D turns the meta into HO central.

Now, that alone wasn't enough to ban it imo, so I went in not taking it seriously, and got myself screwed. I had to switch teams 3 times to find a team decent against the HO centered meta while still being one I'd actually use in real games (in hind sight, sand was obvious, but I was stubborn). I expected to qualify today, but while I have D down to a tee, I still get screwed by S because even when I handle it right, it's so hard to pin down; anything that can check it can't keep it from switching, and anything that can keep it from switching is vulnerable to it's attacks (Gee, that's exactly what I said about Genesect)

None of this is that telling, because I'm just a guy on a rant, so here's some responses and calcs:


For your Deo-S calcs, I'm going to ignore Bandnite because Deo is commonly on HO, which usually has rocks, which breaks multiscale, but if I were to notice it, I'd point out that revenge killing a revenge killer doesn't hurt its brokenness. If my dragon tries to switch in, it'll break Multiscale, and be KO'd by ice beam, only dealing 3/4 damage, not enough, because that means 2 more free attacks.

Slowbro, sure, but there's not a shortage of mons that can switch into 'bro to save him.

As for Aegislash, who uses 252+ atk? When I put in my standard set, I got this:

4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 174-211 (72.1 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You probably still force him out, and if you pursuit, have a 81% chance to OHKO, but it's hardly reliable and knock off is definitely a thing you have to worry about

The "one-on-one" match ups don't matter much. Of those 3, only Aegislash is all that relevant, and he doesn't get the job done against dual screens unless you can confidently switch in on the light screen, get him to stay in, and get a shadow sneak off for a OHKO that only has a 1/64 chance of happening

4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-S on a critical hit: 265-315 (87.1 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Yeah, I'm still solidly for a deo-S ban, the mention of uber performance just gave me the motivation to find things wrong with your argument.

Speaking of which:

I believe you mean at some point somebody will bring it up again :(

OK! More things to talk about. Ok so here you dismiss Bandnite as a calc, and refuse to even look at Slowbro. Firstly, the point of these calcs was to show how common things can defeat Deoxys-Speed, and powerful priority users can do a good job. Dismiss the Slowbro calc, fine. But the Dragonite calculation was very important, it proves my point about priority. First off, what if I send in Dragonite to lead off to beat Deoxys? This is not unreasonable, considering your argument about Stealth Rocks. Any good player will understand Dragonite's gaping weakness to Stealth Rock which wrecks it, so the team almost definitely has a Spinner/Defogger. I would venture to guess that the player chooses EXCADRILL a spinner/SKARMORY a defogger, rather than one of the Lati Twins. It seems to be a team-building rule to not have two of the same type on the same team, and as skarmory fills a team spot for one role alone, Excadrill plus Spin can still attack rather hard. So the most likely hazard remover is Excadrill for a huge priority threat. Excadrill does well with handling DeoSharp. Bisharp can't get the defog boost. So lets presume Dragonite comes in with Multiscale. It can defeat Deoxys-Speed. And there are plenty of ways to exploit hazards, predictions and priority to defeat Deoxys-Speed in the heat of battle.

Next Aegislash. First of all, although the special set is now "the set to run," there are still viable Toxic sets/defensive sets/physically offensive sets that can serve a role BETTER for certain teams. Aegislash is great because there are so many sets Aegislash can use, and I don't understand your belief of"who uses that??? 252 Atk???". The physical set is viable and if a team has a problem with Deoxys-S, if a Physical Aegislash can solve the problem, then people will be willing to use it, and I don't think its all-that-centralising as practically anything with powerful neutral priority or even better super-effective priority can wreck a Deoxys-Speed. (Scizor/ Dragonite/ Aegislash for example).

Dual screens are just as easy to tell you how to deal with - priority. With this argument your presume every Aegislash must run the special LO set + Shadow Sneak because thats the only way your argument works. A Physical Aegislash can easily - without relying on a critical hit - OHKO a Deoxys-S before it sets up screens. Most Deoxys-Speed users will expect the special attack and go for Light Screen, this adds unpredictability to the Physical set because its much less common. Regardless Physical Aegislash/Dragonite/Priority/Prediction/Knock Off are able to handle Deoxys-Speed.

And I agree with you, making an argument about Ubers viability was silly, and I agree it made my argument less credible. But I don't agree that a bad argument should give the responders the write to belittle the person who made the argument, I thank you for not belittling my argument, and noone do it again, I fully accept it was a bad argument, and have even edited it out of my original argument. Thanks, and please focus on the rest.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 229-273 (75.3 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A physical Aegislash cannot OHKO a Deo-S.

So best case scenario, regardless of your set, you can take it down after it uses Light Screen, and before it uses Reflect.

You now have an Aegislash in Blade Forme, unable to use Shadow Ball because of Light Screen, against a Dragon Dance Sweeper. How do you deal with that? Don't say Iron Head please.

And that's only assuming you have Aegislash, the best anti-Deoxys pokemon. The rest of the teams who don't will allow it to set both screens.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Well if it was easy to stop Dual Screen setters from setting up then there would be little point using screens to begin with, wouldn't it? ?_? You Smogon people are so funny sometimes, voting to ban things because they setup SR and a layer of Spikes or a Screen .-.

Besides, if you want to deal with Deoxys-D or Deoxys-S, there's plenty of options to choose from... Mega Scizor deals with both, so does Aegislash, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Mega Mawile, Sylveon beats Deoxys-S... Steel-types in general work pretty well. And you can always spin/Defog away any hazards or screens later. Yes Bisharp is a thing, but if you could Defog all their hard work away for free it kinda defeats the point. It's just like saying SpikeStack in Gen 5 was OP because you could spinblock to keep them up, just the idea of anyone bringing up something like that is hilarious.

If anything Deoxys-S is debatable because of its speed and excellent coverage moves, but saying that its broken because of a single Spike or Screen is laughable honestly. Deoxys-D is not even up for debate, all it does is set up hazards or screens. HO is centralizing? Please, don't make me laugh lmao.

 

[TFL]

Well if it was easy to stop Dual Screen setters from setting up then there would be little point using screens to begin with, wouldn't it? ?_? You Smogon people are so funny sometimes, voting to ban things because they setup SR and a layer of Spikes or a Screen .-.

Besides, if you want to deal with Deoxys-D or Deoxys-S, there's plenty of options to choose from... Mega Scizor deals with both, so does Aegislash, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Mega Mawile, Sylveon beats Deoxys-S... Steel-types in general work pretty well. And you can always spin/Defog away any hazards or screens later. Yes Bisharp is a thing, but if you could Defog all their hard work away for free it kinda defeats the point. It's just like saying SpikeStack in Gen 5 was OP because you could spinblock to keep them up, just the idea of anyone bringing up something like that is hilarious.

If anything Deoxys-S is debatable because of its speed and excellent coverage moves, but saying that its broken because of a single Spike or Screen is laughable honestly. Deoxys-D is not even up for debate, all it does is set up hazards or screens. HO is centralizing? Please, don't make me laugh lmao.

I can Rapid Spin or Defog away any hazards and Screens later? Gee, I didn't think of that. This should really help me in the turns my non Hyper Offense team spends switching around between team members and getting weakened, losing checks and counters to the huge offensive threats on their team, while they are preventing me from using Defog and/or Rapid Spin in the first place. Thanks :)

 

[Outrageous Fortune]

If you even try and argue that Bisharp has access to Stealth Rock your honestly retarded

Sash rocks bisharp isn't even bad, just going to put that out there.

Got reqs now so I guess I should say something. Deo-d is quite clearly broken (there really isn't much debate here). Personally though, I think deo-s would be fine to keep around if it couldn't simply replace deo-d as a hazards lead. While for the most part inferior as a hazards lead to deo-d, it still does its job incredibly well. Having a hazards lead that's head and shoulders above the rest (when it comes to getting hazards down anyway) is not really a good thing to have running around, especially when it synergizes so well with other great mons (eg. bisharp, thundurus, aegislash) resulting in a lot of HO teams looking extremely similar. Also the dual screens set is made of cancer, especially in bp.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Well if it was easy to stop Dual Screen setters from setting up then there would be little point using screens to begin with, wouldn't it? ?_? You Smogon people are so funny sometimes, voting to ban things because they setup SR and a layer of Spikes or a Screen .-.

Besides, if you want to deal with Deoxys-D or Deoxys-S, there's plenty of options to choose from... Mega Scizor deals with both, so does Aegislash, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Mega Mawile, Sylveon beats Deoxys-S... Steel-types in general work pretty well. And you can always spin/Defog away any hazards or screens later. Yes Bisharp is a thing, but if you could Defog all their hard work away for free it kinda defeats the point. It's just like saying SpikeStack in Gen 5 was OP because you could spinblock to keep them up, just the idea of anyone bringing up something like that is hilarious.

If anything Deoxys-S is debatable because of its speed and excellent coverage moves, but saying that its broken because of a single Spike or Screen is laughable honestly. Deoxys-D is not even up for debate, all it does is set up hazards or screens. HO is centralizing? Please, don't make me laugh lmao.

It's not so much "not easy to stop" as it is "completely impossible to prevent regardless of what you lead with as long as the opponent has a Deoxys".

Every strategy needs some sort of counter. A way to prevent it from being done. The Deos are completely flawless at what they do, because it's impossible to prevent them from doing their jobs. They don't just bring imbalance to HO vs Stall, they bring imbalance to HO x Anything, including HO itself. Even HO teams are at a disadvantage if they lead with something else against a Deoxys.

 

[Gloating]

I personally think Deoxys-S is the broken one. Deoxys-D is fine though while it's hard to OHKO it's easy to 2HKO so it only sets up Stealth Rock and if you think guaranteed Rocks is broken a lot of Pokemon can pretty much guarantee Stealth Rock. Both will get banned anyway though.

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

Sash rocks bisharp isn't even bad, just going to put that out there.

Got reqs now so I guess I should say something. Deo-d is quite clearly broken (there really isn't much debate here). Personally though, I think deo-s would be fine to keep around if it couldn't simply replace deo-d as a hazards lead. While for the most part inferior as a hazards lead to deo-d, it still does its job incredibly well. Having a hazards lead that's head and shoulders above the rest (when it comes to getting hazards down anyway) is not really a good thing to have running around, especially when it synergizes so well with other great mons (eg. bisharp, thundurus, aegislash) resulting in a lot of HO teams looking extremely similar. Also the dual screens set is made of cancer, especially in bp.

The caveat you presented about Deoxys-S being "fine" as long as it doesn't replace Deoxys-D as the premier hazard lead is moot.

If Deoxys-D gets the hammer but Deoxys-S doesn't, your basically trading Mental Herb Deoxys-D for Focus Sash Deoxys-S who trades in the Mental Herb for the raw power to 2HKO Thundurus who can't outspeed it and won't be able to do damage to it in the event that is uses Taunt first turn.

The key then becomes the next 1-2 turns after that where Taunt might still be in effect, but any competent player would simply switch into the appropriate check/counter to the pokemon your opponent sent out after Thundurus basically got "1-8-7'd on."

Even though it sucks to base the viability of one mon due to the presence of another; but in this scenario, a unique one at that, it holds merit because Deoxys-D has carved out a pretty emphatic presence in todays Meta.

Banishing him would leave a power void and in this case, Deoxys-S would transition in seamlessly, making the whole exercise of getting reqs pointless if we are simply going to enable a new problem immediately after trying to resolve an old one.

If this is the world you want to live in then so be it. But my vote would be:

Hide

GET DA F*CK OUTTA HERE!!!

 

[Baharoth]

The Deos are completely flawless at what they do, because it's impossible to prevent them from doing their jobs.

The same can be said about oblivous Mamoswine and basicly every fast SR setter with focus sash, you also cant stop Klefki from setting up screens. Countering a strategy doesnt necessarily mean to prevent it from beeing executed and even if there isnt a counter to a strategy she can still be fine for the meta if she isnt to powerful, SR for example is something that cant realy be countered. Question is, are 1-2 layers of hazards broken? Imo they are not, not with that many good defogers and rapidspinners available.

 

[Karxrida]

The same can be said about oblivous Mamoswine and basicly every fast SR setter with focus sash, you also cant stop Klefki from setting up screens. Countering a strategy doesnt necessarily mean to prevent it from beeing executed and even if there isnt a counter to a strategy she can still be fine for the meta if she isnt to powerful, SR for example is something that cant realy be countered. Question is, are 1-2 layers of hazards broken? Imo they are not, not with that many good defogers and rapidspinners available.

The difference here is that Oblivious lead Mamoswine and fast SR setters do nothing but set up SR and die. The Deos can set up SR, Spikes, T-Wave, Knock Off, or lol Mirror Coat fuck you Aegislash, and Deo-D is bulky enough to not need a Focus Sash so it can run Mental Herb or Red Card and can't be OHKO'd by anything in OU not named Bisharp or LO Scolipede.

 

[Destiny Device]

Achieved reqs some days ago, so I may as well post my thoughts on the suspects...
If you use Deoxys-D, it is extremely likely that your opponent will have to deal with at least two layers of hazards for the majority of the match, maybe even more in case he/she lacks something that can 2HKO Deoxys-D without being severely crippled in the process or that forces a lot of coin-flips. These are, basically, Bisharp, Aegislash, Landorus-I, CB Tyranitar and Mawile-Mega. Bisharp can't handle Superpower variants, Aegislash must be wary of being switched out to something that gives Deoxys-D free turns by Red Card, same goes for Mawile-Mega lacking Knock Off. CB Tyranitar is not common and will end up locked in Crunch against non-Red Card Deoxys-D, which is basically begging for Mawile-Mega to come in and set up or for Keldeo to come in and launch a powerful attack. The only usable Pokemon that usually limits Deoxys-D to one layer of hazards is Landorus-I, which deals an average 55% with a Timid Earth Power. Deoxys-D is not frail, and it can come back against anything defensive/passive on the opponent's team. This is an issue for balanced/bulky offensive teams, as multiple layers of entry hazards through a match will effectively lower their capacity to switch-in on the ridiculously powerful threats abused by HO teams, this being one of the advantages in these playstyles. Recover variants are specially dangerous in this kind of matchup, as Deoxys-D's entry hazards will keep weakening the opponent's team and will eventually force its Defogger to take action. This can easily be taken advantage of by exerting offensive pressure, eventually wearing the Defogger enough so that it can be defeated. If Defog isn't used, the opposing team will probably not be able to handle the absolute spam of powerful moves used in HO teams. This not only unbalances Hyper Offense vs. Bulky Offense matchups, but even HO vs. HO matchups. A battle consisting of HO team A vs. HO team B relies heavily on the lead matchup and may end up being decided by it. If A leads with Deoxys-D and B leads with something that has unfavorable matchup against Deoxys-D, B is essentially at a disadvantage right from turn 1. If both A and B lead with Deoxys-D it is literally a coin-flip, and the one who wins it starts the battle at a great advantage.
About hazard removers: the only common/relevant ones are Latios, Latias, Mandibuzz, Excadrill, Zapdos and Skarmory. The Lati twins are extremely vulnerable to Bisharp even if they run Hidden Power Fighting/Fire, since Bisharp forces numerous gambles and has a great chance of removing them from play or at least being defeated and avoiding Defog. Defiant Thundurus is vulnerable to LO Draco Meteors, yes, but just like Bisharp, it is in profit as long as it either avoids Defog or gains a Defiant boost. Again, Latios and Latias are not 100% reliable against HO teams because they force numerous gambles that are usually favorable to the Deoxys-D/Defiant user. Mandibuzz and Zapdos are very susceptible to great offensive pressure, specially from teams based around a "Dual Genie" core being supported by Deoxys-Defense. Mandibuz gives free-turns to Mawile-Mega, which is always a bad thing, and will probably end up seriously weakened by Bisharp to the point it can't do much in the match after that (Life Orb Bisharp wins one-on-one as long as it switches in on Defog). Physically Defensive Zapdos has a great chance of being OHKOed by a +2 Knock Off from any Bisharp variant after Stealth Rock and 68 SAtk Zapdos has a very small chance of OHKOing 0/4 Bisharp with Heat Wave. Zapdos' walling potential is also seriously crippled even it if ends up defeating Bisharp, and many teams rely on a healthy Zapdos to check threats such as Pinsir-Mega. Both Zapdos and Mandibuzz fare poorly against Defiant Thundurus, either attacking and not removing Deoxys-D's entry hazards OR ending up against a +2 base 125 Attack with 111 base Speed and a resistence to common priority. That's something no team in the world enjoys facing except for ones with Quagsire (which is Deoxys-D setup bait!). Skarmory also doesn't do well against Bisharp and Thundurus, once the best it can do it retaliating with Counter. This will leave Skarmory severely weakened and unable to do anything else in the match. This is specially harmful if one depends on Skarmory to deal with Azumarill or Mawile-Mega. Ironically, all the aforementioned Defoggers are either crippled by Thunder Wave or hate being Taunted by Deoxys-D itself. The Defiant users clearly aren't the problem here. It is Deoxys-D's ridiculously consistent, durable and fail-proof hazard setting that forces all of those gambles and puts the player fighting Deoxys-D on a disadvantage.
While Excadrill can work against teams lacking Balloon Aegislash, nothing besides Deoxys-D actually gives a turn for Excadrill to Spin unless it is in the Sandstorm, and even if it choses to spin, it usually forces 50-50s against Mawile-Mega, Thundurus and Landorus while flat-out losing to Azumarill and Keldeo, all extremely common on HO teams.
Deoxys-D's ability to, when used right, force numerous game-deciding gambles and provide consistent offensive support with very little to no cost at all is what, in my opinion, makes it an undesirable presence within the OU metagame. Will post my thoughs on Deoxys-S soon since I don't want this post to be even larger.
and Deoxys-D shoudn't be setting up screens at all!

 

[Baharoth]

The difference here is that Oblivious lead Mamoswine and fast SR setters do nothing but set up SR and die. The Deos can set up SR, Spikes, T-Wave, Knock Off, or lol Mirror Coat fuck you Aegislash, and Deo-D is bulky enough to not need a Focus Sash so it can run Mental Herb or Red Card and can't be OHKO'd by anything in OU not named Bisharp or LO Scolipede.

Actually its the opposite. Mamoswine and things like Garchomp/Terrakion can deal damage to the opponent if they want to, they are not limited to just setting up hazards, even if their Sash has to activate turn one, they can attack at least once after that, especially Mamo can come back in later to revenge something with Ice Shard. Or they can just go for the kill against the opposing lead. The only thing Deo-D can do is set up hazards, basicly everything else in his movepool is only to assist in that role and it would need much more than 4 moveslots to prepare for every possible counter measure especially with many of them beeing situational as hell (Mirro Coat says hi). Most setup sweepers that dont care about twave can put it in a very difficult position forcing it to decide between using taunt and probably wasting a crucial turn of hazards or allowing the opponent to get a boost. Mawile cant just boost/sub in front of Mamo or Garchomp, against Deoxys it works most of the time because the people are so fixated on getting up hazards that they dont even think about the consequences and even if they were to play properly and use taunt it still means that they sacrifice one pokemon for nothing than stealthrocks on the field. Against a smart opponent Deo-D can quickly turn into a two edged sword.

 

[Karxrida]

Actually its the opposite. Mamoswine and things like Garchomp/Terrakion can deal damage to the opponent if they want to, they are not limited to just setting up hazards, even if their Sash has to activate turn one, they can attack at least once after that, especially Mamo can come back in later to revenge something with Ice Shard. Or they can just go for the kill against the opposing lead. The only thing Deo-D can do is set up hazards, basicly everything else in his movepool is only to assist in that role and it would need much more than 4 moveslots to prepare for every possible counter measure especially with many of them beeing situational as hell (Mirro Coat says hi). Most setup sweepers that dont care about twave can put it in a very difficult position forcing it to decide between using taunt and probably wasting a crucial turn of hazards or allowing the opponent to get a boost. Mawile cant just boost/sub in front of Mamo or Garchomp, against Deoxys it works most of the time because the people are so fixated on getting up hazards that they dont even think about the consequences and even if they were to play properly and use taunt it still means that they sacrifice one pokemon for nothing than stealthrocks on the field. Against a smart opponent Deo-D can quickly turn into a two edged sword.

None of them have anything more than SR and are dependent on their Focus Sash. Other than Mamo having Knock Off (which it doesn't have room to run on lead sets), none of them have the support movepool to fuck over things.

Deo-D and Deo-S don't have 4MSS syndrome because you have literally no idea what they are doing until it is too late. That Deo-S lead? Actually the LO 4 Attacks variant. Deo-D coming in later on in the match to wall something? Not even the bulky set, it's just setting up hazards. It is literally impossible to deal with them with being lucky since they could be carrying a move that fucks you over easily.

Oh and all those other SR setters don't have Spikes and aren't hard to check or counter.

 

[Baharoth]

None of them have anything more than SR and are dependent on their Focus Sash. Other than Mamo having Knock Off (which it doesn't have room to run on lead sets), none of them have the support movepool to fuck over things.

Deo-D and Deo-S don't have 4MSS syndrome because you have literally no idea what they are doing until it is too late. That Deo-S lead? Actually the LO 4 Attacks variant. Deo-D coming in later on in the match to wall something? Not even the bulky set, it's just setting up hazards. It is literally impossible to deal with them with being lucky since they could be carrying a move that fucks you over easily.

Oh and all those other SR setters don't have Spikes and aren't hard to check or counter.

If you are so fixated on support moves, Terra gets taunt, but thats just a side note.

Deo-D does have 4MSS because it wants SR, Spikes, Twave, Taunt, Superpower, Magic Coat, Magic Bounce and what not to deal with possible counter measures. Deo-S somewhat circumvates that by running different sets. The question whether that Deo-S is an hazard lead or a LO attacker isnt that important imo given that there are so many things out there that can easily check both, Aegi, Mawile, Scizor, phys def Ttar, Ferro with Gyroball, AV Azu or the aforementioned sash leads, its your choice. And if you actually build a team without any of those, just play it save and assume LO Deoxys, that one extra layer of hazards he gets if you predict wrong will rarely be game breaking. And honestly, most of the time its totaly obvious which set it is just from looking at the team.

 

[13ulbasaur]

Deoxys-D is fine though while it's hard to OHKO it's easy to 2HKO...

That's if you are playing hyper offensive. What about stall teams? Am I forced to run a hyper offensive Poke that doesn't synergise with my team just so Deoxys-D doesn't set up a thousand hazards and cripple things with T-Wave? I can't taunt them because most good Deoxys players can see Taunt coming and either reflect it with magic coat and/or have a white herb and my semi-offensive wall can 3HKO it at best and if they have red card I need another turn to switch the offensive wall back in or if I'm lucky it switches into my other one which might be able to finish the job. It's dangerous to try status-ing them too because again, magic coat. Even then it's still a slow, wearing down process which is still a lot of hazards. Oh, and then there's the Bisharp defogger thing when I try defogging.

 

[Baharoth]

That's if you are playing hyper offensive. What about stall trams? Am I forced to run a hyper offensive Poke that doesn't synergise with my team just so Deoxys-D doesn't set up a thousand hazards and cripple things with T-Wave? I can't taunt them because most good Deoxys players can see Taunt coming and either reflect it with magic coat and/or have a white herb and my semi-offensive wall can 3HKO it at best and if they have red card I need another turn to switch the offensive wall back in or if I'm lucky it switches into my other one which might be able to finish the job. It's dangerous to try status-ing them too because again, magic coat. Even then it's still a slow, wearing down process which is still a lot of hazards.

Please correct me if i am wrong as i dont play stall myself, but from what i heard here from people like ajwf modern stall needs to run pursuit trappers anyway to deal with Gothitelle and there are plenty of good balanced mons that easily fit into stall teams, Mega Scizor, Aegislash, Zard X and so on. I wont deny that the matchup against HO is harder for stall than for other archetypes but then again, as a balanced player i always have to go out of my way just to deal with stall. Matchup advantages between different archetypes are impossible to avoid and as long as there is a good chance to overcome the disadvantages its fine imo.

 

[13ulbasaur]

Please correct me if i am wrong as i dont play stall myself, but from what i heard here from people like ajwf modern stall needs to run pursuit trappers anyway to deal with Gothitelle and there are plenty of good balanced mons that easily fit into stall teams, Mega Scizor, Aegislash, Zard X and so on. I wont deny that the matchup against HO is harder for stall than for other archetypes but then again, as a balanced player i always have to go out of my way just to deal with stall. Matchup advantages between different archetypes are impossible to avoid.

You know what, I honestly don't know. I never heard of pursuit trappers being a need, but I guess I never had to face off a gothitelle. Mega Venusaur is usually a staple in stall teams (or nearly all my teams because I love Venusaur) so the megas are usually not my option, but you are right about Awgislash fitting in (granted it can fit in to every team ever) I just never used it for personal reasons.

 

[Karxrida]

Please correct me if i am wrong as i dont play stall myself, but from what i heard here from people like ajwf modern stall needs to run pursuit trappers anyway to deal with Gothitelle and there are plenty of good balanced mons that easily fit into stall teams, Mega Scizor, Aegislash, Zard X and so on. I wont deny that the matchup against HO is harder for stall than for other archetypes but then again, as a balanced player i always have to go out of my way just to deal with stall. Matchup advantages between different archetypes are impossible to avoid and as long as there is a good chance to overcome the disadvantages its fine imo.

How does Pursuit trapping do shit to Deo-D? It's not going to switch out and even if it does wants to die for free momentum after hazards are up.

 

[Baharoth]

How does Pursuit trapping do shit to Deo-D? It's not going to switch out and even if it does wants to die for free momentum after hazards are up.

Pursuit does shit to it thats true, it just so happens that the common Pursuit trappers namely Scizor, Aegislash, Bisharp and TTar work very well against Deo-D, so by using a trapper you will also have a way to deal with Deo.

 

[Karxrida]

Pursuit does shit to it thats true, it just so happens that the common Pursuit trappers namely Scizor, Aegislash, Bisharp and TTar work very well against Deo-D, so by using a trapper you will also have a way to deal with Deo.

The problem is that none of them can stop it from setting up and Deo-D have been known to run Superpower just to fuck with Bisharp and T-Tar (and neither are even guaranteed to OHKO Deo-D anyway, so it can get up a layer of spikes or T-Wave your T-Tar).

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Lead Chomp, Mamo, Terrakion, etc. can guarantee rocks but they don't have spikes. Deo-D, as well as S, is just too good at setting both of SR and Spikes, which is the issue people have with it. Everything else that can do it is either susceptible to Taunt (all of them except Magic Coat Smeargle,) can be defogged in front of (all of them except maybe max speed Taunt Skarm/Smeargle) has exploitable weakness that allows them to be handled without having to use Defog/Spin (Skarm's low SDef, Ferro's incredibly low speed and quad weakness to Fire) or is just extremely shitty (Forretress, Crustle, Omastar, Smeargle.) As for Spikes stackers like Lass and Klefki, well, spikes don't actually affect most of the good defoggers and three layers of spikes does the same amount of damage at Spikes+SR, discounting rock weak/resist.

And yes when Deo-D is backed by stupid shit like X-zard, Mega Mawile, Landorus, Thundurus, Aegislash, Bisharp, Mega Dos, etc. etc. finding a time to "just use defog" can be hard.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

HO can deal with Deo-D, at the cost of failing to lay their own rocks while Deo-D still gets to lay theirs. So they already start with a disadvantage. And that's assuming the HO team doesn't get unlucky with red card. Or that the Deoxys player doesn't predict an anti-lead and save their alien for later to put into against something that can't prevent multiple layers of hazards.

Look, I personally give zero fucks about this "stall can't beat HO" argument. If stall can't, then screw stall. Not every style has to be viable, and we shouldn't be custom tailoring the meta to make sure every team is equally good. Let the meta grow in whatever direction it wants, and if stall dies, it's because it wasn't competitive enough to survive.

But the Deos are broken elements, in which they are guaranteed to get an advantage against any other pokemon in the roles they perform. They win. Period. It doesn't matter if the foe is HO, Balance, Stall, Rain, Volt-Turn... they win because they are overpowered elements themselves. Pick any lead you can think of, and it will either fail to stop the deos from fully performing their jobs, or manage to slow them down while still failing to give any kind of advantage to their own team. The score is always higher on the Deoxys player's side.

 

[Baharoth]

The problem is that none of them can stop it from setting up and Deo-D have been known to run Superpower just to fuck with Bisharp and T-Tar (and neither are even guaranteed to OHKO Deo-D anyway, so it can get up a layer of spikes or T-Wave your T-Tar).

They cant completely prevent him from getting hazards up, as mentioned here several times almost nothing can. But they can limit the amount of hazards it can set up drasticly. Especially Scizor and Aegi who can 2hko with a combination of knock off/Shadow ball and priority. And they dont realy care about twave. (Same for TTar who will most likely not be an DD set when used on stall)

HO can deal with Deo-D, at the cost of failing to lay their own rocks while Deo-D still gets to lay theirs. So they already start with a disadvantage. And that's assuming the HO team doesn't get unlucky with red card. Or that the Deoxys player doesn't predict an anti-lead and save their alien for later to put into against something that can't prevent multiple layers of hazards.

That statement totaly depends on the HO team, the cookie cutter build that was mentioned here has 4 mons to crush Deo-D, Aegi, Lando, Mawile and Bisharp and most HO teams should have at least one of them. And if they want to they can always lead with Deo-D themselfes so they are the last to have a disadvantage against it. Imo generally the more offensive your team is the less problems you should have dealing with it, especially with Red Card variants as it usually wont matter what comes out after it.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

They cant completely prevent him from getting hazards up, as mentioned here several times almost nothing can. But they can limit the amount of hazards it can set up drasticly. Especially Scizor and Aegi who can 2hko with a combination of knock off/Shadow ball and priority. And they dont realy care about twave. (Same for TTar who will most likely not be an DD set when used on stall)

Aegi can still fail if the red card lottery says so, and even if it succeeds, only one side has rocks now, and it's not the Aegislash player's side. In an HO vs HO match, guess who has the advantage.

Having a Deo-D as a lead is a 100% guarantee that the opponent will always be facing an uphill battle, while you start with the advantage.