np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Alienation of the Wretched

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Aegi can still fail if the red card lottery says so, and even if it succeeds, only one side has rocks now, and it's not the Aegislash player's side. In an HO vs HO match, guess who has the advantage.

Having a Deo-D as a lead is a 100% guarantee that the opponent will always be facing an uphill battle, while you start with the advantage.
You completely ignore the consequences of getting those hazards up. In an HO vs HO match the red card lottery will most likely bring out something else that can finish of deo as HO doesnt carry walls who would fail at that, then the Deo-D player has SR up and is one mon down while his opponent can still bring his own Deo/hazard setter later to eventually get even more hazards.
Saying Deo-D lead is always an uphill battle is just wrong, there are so many ways for the opponent to take advantage of it. And even if he cant, Deo-D dies setting up those hazards. That means most of the time you trade one mon for one extra layer of hazards as you could have used something that sets only SR but can fight after doing that. People here always act like there are 4 layers of hazards on the field for free but thats not case, most of the time it will be 2 at most and they have a price. And depending on how the game goes they might not even be worth that price, for example if they are removed 2 turns later.
 
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252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 229-273 (75.3 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A physical Aegislash cannot OHKO a Deo-S.

So best case scenario, regardless of your set, you can take it down after it uses Light Screen, and before it uses Reflect.

You now have an Aegislash in Blade Forme, unable to use Shadow Ball because of Light Screen, against a Dragon Dance Sweeper. How do you deal with that? Don't say Iron Head please.
o
And that's only assuming you have Aegislash, the best anti-Deoxys pokemon. The rest of the teams who don't will allow it to set both screens.
Well, it can OHKO the revenge-killer set. The hazards/screens set you've pointed out it cannot, which is true. But regardless, if your opponent gets up Reflect your Shadow Sneak will still kill when they stay in... They are more likely to predict Shadow Ball and Light Screen and their won't even be a screen stopping Aegislash. So which Dragon Dance sweeper are we talking about??? M-Gyarados gets killed by Sacred Sword. But Charizard doesn't...
so you would have to switch.

That's like saying - guys we should ban Bronzong because you can lead with it get up hazards/screens and then when it dies you can send in a DD Sweeper, thats broken. Plenty of Pokemon when you whack a Light Clay on them can reliably set up screens - Klefki, Bronzong, Espeon, Sylveon, Claydol! And most of them have far better defenses than Deoxys-S. I know you will bring up speed, fastest dual screener doesn't make it the best. I regard the BULKIER Dual screeners as the best. Things that can take a hit twice to get up the screens then they die as death fodder just like Deoxys. Klefki can get up Prankster screens - and is slighter bulkier with better typing - should we ban it?

Deoxys-D seems to be almost unanimously that its too good for OU, because it overcentralises HO playstyle. Deoxys-S is questionable. Let's look at its attack stats : 95/95/180. The attack stats have to be fully invested to be usable, there lower than 100?!? The Speed means nothing for attack if you can't hit hard, even when the attacks have 140 BP. The defense stats are even worse : 50/95/95. 50 HP already leaves this so-called screener/hazard-setter susceptible, especially when faced with Aegislash. 95 defenses are passable, however Deoxys-S typing is piss-poor. Deoxys-D is able to work with this typing because of its 160/160 defenses, but Deoxys-Speed is good for OU, not unhealthy.

Sum-up what you want to ban - a pure Psychic type, with average defenses, who can get up one screen maybe set up two screens, can always set up one layer of hazards, sometimes two. This Pokemon has 180 Speed, and average attack stats, nice movepool, with the potential for a mixed set. Something that the word average comes up twice in describing it, is something for OU, are you going to go around banning everything that can get up rocks/screens with average defenses?
 
Bronzong is not guaranteed to set up both screens. Bronzong can actually be stopped before it's too late and your team is dealing with something at +2/+2 that is sweeping your ass.

You completely ignore the consequences of getting those hazards up. In an HO vs HO match the red card lottery will most likely bring out something else that can finish of deo as HO doesnt carry walls who would fail at that, then the Deo-D player has SR up and is one mon down while his opponent can still bring his own Deo/hazard setter later to eventually get even more hazards.
Saying Deo-D lead is always an uphill battle is just wrong, there are so many ways for the opponent to take advantage of it. And even if he cant, Deo-D dies setting up those hazards. That means most of the time you trade one mon for one extra layer of hazards as you could have used something that sets only SR but can fight after doing that. People here always act like there are 4 layers of hazards on the field for free but thats not case, most of the time it will be 2 at most and they have a price. And depending on how the game goes they might not even be worth that price, for example if they are removed 2 turns later.
And you completely ignore the way HO works. Do you think they will camly sit down while you bring your own rock setter? They will start attacking hard as soon as Deoxys goes down. Good luck setting rocks up without losing a mon. Or two. Your opponent has all the momentum now.
 
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I played quite a few games with HO myself, and whats more i play against it the whole time on the suspect ladder, trust me, i know exactly how HO works and i also know how to abuse its weaknesses. If the HO player gains and maintains his momentum during the whole game you either have a massive team disadvantage or are simply outplayed.
 
Ninja Charizard - you miss the point I make. I'm saying should we ban all Dual screeners?? Klefki is a better dual-screener in every way to Deoxys-S, better bulk, better type, Priority Screens..... It can pretty much always get up both screens. Deoxys can't so we shouldn't ban it because of that. EVEN IF we where banning Pokemon who can always get up screens the suspect would be Klefki not Deoxys.
 

Karxrida

yeah I'm bitter
is a Community Contributor
Ninja Charizard - you miss the point I make. I'm saying should we ban all Dual screeners?? Klefki is a better dual-screener in every way to Deoxys-S, better bulk, better type, Priority Screens..... It can pretty much always get up both screens. Deoxys can't so we shouldn't ban it because of that. EVEN IF we where banning Pokemon who can always get up screens the suspect would be Klefki not Deoxys.
Klefki does not have Taunt. Klefki dose not have SR. Klefki does not have Magic Coat. Klefki does not have offensive presence. Klefki doesn't have 5 viable sets that fuck you over if you mis-predict what it's going to do. Klefki is set up bait.

Klefki is not banworthy.
 
Deoxys-S is probably the best Dual Screener there is, but I'm not convinced it's significantly better than Latios (Memento + similar offensive presence) or Espeon (Magic Bounce + Yawn to prevent set-up). There is an argument that it is broken when considered along with its other sets, but the Dual Screen set in isolation is really not that special or unique.
 
Deoxys-S is probably the best Dual Screener there is, but I'm not convinced it's significantly better than Latios (Memento + similar offensive presence) or Espeon (Magic Bounce + Yawn to prevent set-up). There is an argument that it is broken when considered along with its other sets, but the Dual Screen set in isolation is really not that special or unique.
Latios lacks taunt letting the screen just be defogged away or taunted itself. Espeon has lot less physical bulk and very little offensive presence. and also lacks taunt letting it be defogged.
 

Nova

snitches get stitches
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Deoxys-S is probably the best Dual Screener there is, but I'm not convinced it's significantly better than Latios (Memento + similar offensive presence) or Espeon (Magic Bounce + Yawn to prevent set-up). There is an argument that it is broken when considered along with its other sets, but the Dual Screen set in isolation is really not that special or unique.
Ya, this is definitely true. The only set where Deoxys-S is argubly the best in OU at what it does is the entry hazard set. It's Dual Screen set as you mentioned is often outshined by Latios and Espeon. It's LO offensive set is oftentimes overshadowed by LO Greninja with his Protean ability or LO Thundurus with his utility Prankster Thunder Wave. Even though Deoxys-S may not be the best option in terms of certain sets, all of these sets are still extremely viable and competitive in the tier. This variability is what I believe sets Deoxys-S apart from many of the other things in tier; not only is it the #1 entry hazard, but also a top 3~ dual screener, and a top 5 LO sweeper. No other Pokemon in the tier can really claim to be so dominant in so many ways.
 
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I'll be the first to admit that I'm not really an XY OU player because I despise the metagame, but I do have experience which stems from generally being pretty decent at Pokemon + watching WCoP battles + testing with my WCoP teammates. This experience, in addition to the times I've laddered in the past (MLuc / Gene / Deo-s test) and my recent infuriating attempts at laddering that were plagued by both current suspects and constant 50/50 bullshit from garbage that's also thankfully on its way out soon, has led me to believe that both Deoxys formes are broken. They were broken last gen for the exact same reasons they're broken this gen. Not only are they insanely efficient at each of their roles, they have the versatility to push them into broken territory because of how easily they can punish you.

LO Deoxys-s cleaves through offense with absurd efficiency because of its ridiculous speed, decent power and unparalleled coverage; it's not rare that I'll see an offense team get their check raped by a surprise coverage move (for example Mega Scizor/Mawile eating an HP Fire) and then it's just a slugfest every time Deo-s comes in (which isn't hard with the amount of switch move users [U-turn Talonflame, Volt Switch Rotom-W, I'm sure I could think of others if I needed to but you get the gist] in OU that are often paired with it) since often the best check is like a Thundurus which has to come in after a teammate has died or risk coming in on a prediction that if it gets wrong just kills it, and it doesn't even KO, it just paralyzes it and dies in the process... and this is all just one set, albeit it's the best/most dangerous. It can also get cute with screens and a stupidly fast Taunt to prevent Defog.

Deo-D has a lot of ways to screw with shit as well and can choose who it wants to destroy depending on its team. Against weak stall, it can sit on its ass and stack hazards to the ceiling while preventing Defog with Taunt/Recover + insane bulk + good speed. Offense isn't safe against it either, since its bulk is still excellent and it's got Thunder Wave, which ends Lati@s (aka the two Defoggers faster than it). I haven't even mentioned the Superpower sets that bury Excadrill.

Sure they don't run all these options in one set, but as a wise man with a scarred face once said: four moveslot syndrome doesn't make you less effective, it means you're more unpredictable and therefore more threatening. Plus it's not even like it needs to use all its moves, it can pick based on what its team needs.

 
OK! More things to talk about. Ok so here you dismiss Bandnite as a calc, and refuse to even look at Slowbro. Firstly, the point of these calcs was to show how common things can defeat Deoxys-Speed, and powerful priority users can do a good job. Dismiss the Slowbro calc, fine. But the Dragonite calculation was very important, it proves my point about priority. First off, what if I send in Dragonite to lead off to beat Deoxys? This is not unreasonable, considering your argument about Stealth Rocks. Any good player will understand Dragonite's gaping weakness to Stealth Rock which wrecks it, so the team almost definitely has a Spinner/Defogger. I would venture to guess that the player chooses EXCADRILL a spinner/SKARMORY a defogger, rather than one of the Lati Twins. It seems to be a team-building rule to not have two of the same type on the same team, and as skarmory fills a team spot for one role alone, Excadrill plus Spin can still attack rather hard. So the most likely hazard remover is Excadrill for a huge priority threat. Excadrill does well with handling DeoSharp. Bisharp can't get the defog boost. So lets presume Dragonite comes in with Multiscale. It can defeat Deoxys-Speed. And there are plenty of ways to exploit hazards, predictions and priority to defeat Deoxys-Speed in the heat of battle.

Next Aegislash. First of all, although the special set is now "the set to run," there are still viable Toxic sets/defensive sets/physically offensive sets that can serve a role BETTER for certain teams. Aegislash is great because there are so many sets Aegislash can use, and I don't understand your belief of"who uses that??? 252 Atk???". The physical set is viable and if a team has a problem with Deoxys-S, if a Physical Aegislash can solve the problem, then people will be willing to use it, and I don't think its all-that-centralising as practically anything with powerful neutral priority or even better super-effective priority can wreck a Deoxys-Speed. (Scizor/ Dragonite/ Aegislash for example).

Dual screens are just as easy to tell you how to deal with - priority. With this argument your presume every Aegislash must run the special LO set + Shadow Sneak because thats the only way your argument works. A Physical Aegislash can easily - without relying on a critical hit - OHKO a Deoxys-S before it sets up screens. Most Deoxys-Speed users will expect the special attack and go for Light Screen, this adds unpredictability to the Physical set because its much less common. Regardless Physical Aegislash/Dragonite/Priority/Prediction/Knock Off are able to handle Deoxys-Speed.

And I agree with you, making an argument about Ubers viability was silly, and I agree it made my argument less credible. But I don't agree that a bad argument should give the responders the write to belittle the person who made the argument, I thank you for not belittling my argument, and noone do it again, I fully accept it was a bad argument, and have even edited it out of my original argument. Thanks, and please focus on the rest.
Try reading other suspect tests. Revenge killing something does not affect its brokenness. I said that in my last post.

Also, if you'll read the bolded part of your post, you should see an obvious problem. Using an otherwise less viable set to deal with a single overpowered poke. Sounds like overcentralizing to me.

Overall, I've noticed that you don't understand how Deo-S works at all. Its attacking set is a revenge killer and cleaner, not a sweeper. Forcing it out with a switch in, with the exception of regenerator stallmons, is a win for your opponent because, assuming its an attacking set (not something you can assume), it probably set up rocks itself or had a team mate do it. There are a decent number of checks to Deo-S, but assuming you have the right one for the set they chose (again, that's hard to guarantee), you're still rarely able to eliminate it from the match. Even if you do, it'll always make a difference in a good match (best suicide lead mean anything anymore).

Outspeeding even the best scarfers just is too good. Priority's bigger this gen, but it doesn't keep it from doing it's job at all. It's one of those threats that as soon as you see it you have to start thinking about how likely each set is and how you'll handle them; and start praying they don't pull something random out of their hats. Deo-D is arguably worse because you need to know what you'll do before you walk in, but S is the one I have nightmares about.
 
Try reading other suspect tests. Revenge killing something does not affect its brokenness. I said that in my last post.

Also, if you'll read the bolded part of your post, you should see an obvious problem. Using an otherwise less viable set to deal with a single overpowered poke. Sounds like overcentralizing to me.

Overall, I've noticed that you don't understand how Deo-S works at all. Its attacking set is a revenge killer and cleaner, not a sweeper. Forcing it out with a switch in, with the exception of regenerator stallmons, is a win for your opponent because, assuming its an attacking set (not something you can assume), it probably set up rocks itself or had a team mate do it. There are a decent number of checks to Deo-S, but assuming you have the right one for the set they chose (again, that's hard to guarantee), you're still rarely able to eliminate it from the match. Even if you do, it'll always make a difference in a good match (best suicide lead mean anything anymore).

Outspeeding even the best scarfers just is too good. Priority's bigger this gen, but it doesn't keep it from doing it's job at all. It's one of those threats that as soon as you see it you have to start thinking about how likely each set is and how you'll handle them; and start praying they don't pull something random out of their hats. Deo-D is arguably worse because you need to know what you'll do before you walk in, but S is the one I have nightmares about.
It doesn't matter what I say - even if I use the term revenge-killer in previous posts., regardless of what I say, I will get abused. Because I don't agree with the majority. I've used Deo-S and fully understand how it works. I've highlighted some parts of the post that are telling. I'll address the highlights in order. Physical Aegislash is just as viable as Life Orb Special Aegislash. I've been told usage doesn't matter, people have been very successful with a Physical Aegislash, which can serve plenty of other uses on a team like a Swords Dance sweeper and a teams spin-blocker. I only used Aegislash as an example, for the record. Moving on, when you say its hard to know what set its running. Well, from team preview, its easy to say what most Pokemon are gonna want to do, including Deo-S. THERE ARE a decent number of checks, which means something isn't broken, or hard to defeat. The third thing I've highlighted is very telling.The whole basis of your main argument, is that "it'll always make a difference", in every good battle, all 12 Pokemon should make a difference, something that "makes a difference" isn't broken.

Finally, Pursuit has become much more popular, and with proper prediction you can nab a Deoxys-S on the switch-out, that on top of priority moves like Shadow Sneak, Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed etc. running rampant means your fourth highlighted point is largely wrong. Anyway this will be my last post on this because so far I've convinced no one and this post probably won't convince anyone. The thing I have decided is that people on this site claim that everyone gets a choice and an opinion, but they won't tell you that only one opinion is right and if you don't agree with it, the community will eat you...
 
Well, from team preview, its easy to say what most Pokemon are gonna want to do, including Deo-S.
This is just horrifically unreliable. What happens when your logically flawless deduction is wrong? The consequences of guessing Deo's set wrong are very harsh and its versatility only makes this worse.
THERE ARE a decent number of checks, which means something isn't broken, or hard to defeat.
Rayquaza has a decent number of checks. Does that mean it isn't broken or hard to defeat either?
Finally, Pursuit has become much more popular, and with proper prediction you can nab a Deoxys-S on the switch-out
"If I get this 50/50 right I kill the Deo, if I get it wrong I get swept!"
that on top of priority moves like Shadow Sneak, Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed etc. running rampant means your fourth highlighted point is largely wrong.
Just because they can revenge kill it doesn't mean it's not broken because they have to either come in after Deoxys has killed something or take a huge risk knowing that they probably lose if they get it wrong. I can revenge kill Xerneas with Scizor's Bullet Punch, but I have to come in after a kill unless I want to risk switching into an HP Fire and outright losing.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
Jaffa Ball, nobody is abusing you and you're free to disagree with the majority. Playing the victim's role won't make your arguments look more beliveable.

Also, as others have already pointed out, the fact that Deoxys (or any other Pokemon) has a few counters, doesn't mean that said Pokemon is automatically not unhealthy for the game. Kyogre has a few counters in lower tiers (see Gastrodon or Ludicolo) but that doesn't make it any less broken.
 
So much wrong here.
You completely ignore the consequences of getting those hazards up. In an HO vs HO match the red card lottery will most likely bring out something else that can finish of deo as HO doesnt carry walls who would fail at that, then the Deo-D player has SR up and is one mon down while his opponent can still bring his own Deo/hazard setter later to eventually get even more hazards.
Saying Deo-D lead is always an uphill battle is just wrong, there are so many ways for the opponent to take advantage of it. And even if he cant, Deo-D dies setting up those hazards. That means most of the time you trade one mon for one extra layer of hazards as you could have used something that sets only SR but can fight after doing that. People here always act like there are 4 layers of hazards on the field for free but thats not case, most of the time it will be 2 at most and they have a price. And depending on how the game goes they might not even be worth that price, for example if they are removed 2 turns later.
Banking on the RNG to bring out a pokemon you hope will finish Deoxys-D isn't a compelling argument that Deoxys-D isn't capable doing its job. It is quite possible that you have at least 2 mons that don't outspeed Deoxys-D (3 / 5 chance). Deoxys-D has enough bulk to survive strong hits + a priority move as well. For example, standard Balloon Aegislash + Aqua Jet from BD / AV Azumarill you need absolute max damage on Aegislash's Shadow Ball to guarantee the KO from Aqua Jet [1/16th chance]. The next highest damage role from Aegislash's Shadow Ball [1/16th chance] leaves you only a 25% chance for you to KO with Aqua Jet, and the chances get worse from there. And thats if you get out to your priority user on the red card.

You are framing it as if taking down Deoxys-D is getting anywhere against the opponent. Deoxys-D is intended to die. By killing it you give the opponent a free switch to a favorable matchup for whatever you killed Deoxys-D with. A hazard(s) down with a favorable matchup, while you have no hazards down, is a situation where the Deoxys-D user is dictating the game and in a favorable scenario.

I don't understand how you could be so dismissive of SR + 1 layer of Spikes as "2 at most". Allow me to direct you to this handy post here. Take a look at the output of all the entry hazards. SR + first layer of Spikes add the most damage out of all the entry hazards. Comparatively, the effect of the 2nd and 3rd layer of Spikes is smaller compared to SR + 1st layer of Spikes, it has a 1/2 of the damage output (+24% / +25% vs +12%). Those "2 hazards" are the most important and SR + Spikes taking a quarter of your health on every switchin is huge. Even if you manage to come in on an attack that does around 20%, you still have lost around half your health. In the scenario of using a pokemon with reliable recovery, which not all defensive pokemon have, then on that turn you are forced to recover your opponent gets a free switchin to a favorable matchup. This just happens if the opponent does around 20% with an attack. On a prediction or just a unavoidable scenario with the powerhouses OU has right now, your defensive Pokemon will fall behind on health quickly recieving damage on attacks above the 25% mark. Can you see now how warping SR + 1 layer of Spikes is to any sort of balanced or defensive playstyle?

Ya, this is definitely true. The only set where Deoxys-S is argubly the best in OU at what it does is the entry hazard set. It's Dual Screen set as you mentioned is often outshined by Latios and Espeon. It's LO offensive set is oftentimes overshadowed by LO Greninja with his Protean ability or LO Thundurus with his utility Prankster Thunder Wave. Even though Deoxys-S may not be the best option in terms of certain sets, all of these sets are still extremely viable and competitive in the tier. This variability is what I believe sets Deoxys-S apart from many of the other things in tier; not only is it the #1 entry hazard, but also a top 3~ dual screener, and a top 5 LO sweeper. No other Pokemon in the tier can really claim to be so dominant in so many ways.
Sorry to say Nova by I'm going to really have to disagree here. In the case of the dual screen set, Deoxys-S' ability to shut down any sort of set up sweeper with Taunt (unlike Espeon) without killing itself in the process (unlike Latios) and set up SR creates the optimal scenario for offensive teams unlike any other lead. Greninja can perform a similar role with its high speed, but Deoxys-S can do so much more with its god-like speed. Deoxys-S can revenge kill boosted sweepers (DD TTar, Zard X, Gyara, etc.) and Scarfers up to Garchomp. Oh yeah in the fourth moveslot it can squeeze in SR that is unstoppable outside of Prankster Taunt and Magic Bounce / Coat. Twave Thunder-I often finds itself dying in the process trying to check a sweeper with Thunder Wave (although being transcendental of speed tiers is cool).

Deoxys unmatched and hard to stop support is part of the reason heavy offensive is so dominant in the tier right now. It has to go.

What I'm scared of
+Landorus-I
+Aegislash
+Mega Mawile
+Charizard X
+Mega Pinsir

5 more months until OU is playable?
 
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This is just horrifically unreliable. What happens when your logically flawless deduction is wrong? The consequences of guessing Deo's set wrong are very harsh and its versatility only makes this worse.

Rayquaza has a decent number of checks. Does that mean it isn't broken or hard to defeat either?

"If I get this 50/50 right I kill the Deo, if I get it wrong I get swept!"

Just because they can revenge kill it doesn't mean it's not broken because they have to either come in after Deoxys has killed something or take a huge risk knowing that they probably lose if they get it wrong. I can revenge kill Xerneas with Scizor's Bullet Punch, but I have to come in after a kill unless I want to risk switching into an HP Fire and outright losing.

1. Well EITHER WAY you can make an educated guess, eg. Deo-S + Bisharp, means its probably hazard-setter. It doesn't take much to guess what set Deo is running, if you got it wrong then that's your fault. Blaming the Deoxys-S and banning it because you couldn't work out what set it was running.

2. You see the difference between Rayquaza and Deoxys-S is that Rayquaza has sky-high attack stats and decent-dual-typing, Deoxys has one-type which is susceptible to three types, pretty shit bulk, and pretty shit offensive stats by OU standards. It does many roles well however, but this doesn't mean its unhealthy for the metagame.

3. I've never seen a bad Pursuit prediction lead to a sweep. If this happens, your team is built poorly. And there is the strong chance that Deoxys-Speed users want to get their frail alien out, against the Dark type facing it. So its not really a 50/50.

4. I would think that a Pokemon with shitty stats for the most part, but great versatility isn't broken. Aegislash has better stats and is more versatile than Deoxys-Speed. So then you presume that the set Deoxys-Speed is running is a cleaner, because setting up a screen or hazard isn't all that catastrophic and won't make you "probably lose". So the presumption is that Deoxys is running an offensive set, and as defeated one Pokemon, so that you can revenge-kill it. A lot of people opt for a defensive set, and as I said, getting up a hazard/screen is not catastrophic, screens will wear off, hazards can be Spinned away, the only real danger is when it uses its almight 95/95 Attack stats, and is able to somehow sweep with them.
 
1. Well EITHER WAY you can make an educated guess, eg. Deo-S + Bisharp, means its probably hazard-setter. It doesn't take much to guess what set Deo is running, if you got it wrong then that's your fault. Blaming the Deoxys-S and banning it because you couldn't work out what set it was running.
So even if, logically, the Deoxys-S on my opponent's team is best suited as a dual screener, and it turns out to be an LO set that screws me over, that's my fault?

2. You see the difference between Rayquaza and Deoxys-S is that Rayquaza has sky-high attack stats and decent-dual-typing, Deoxys has one-type which is susceptible to three types, pretty shit bulk, and pretty shit offensive stats by OU standards. It does many roles well however, but this doesn't mean its unhealthy for the metagame.
You're missing the point. It doesn't have to be Rayquaza, it can be any uber, because they all have some weaknesses and some checks. If your only logic is "x is checked by y and z therefore not broken" then you have to unban literally every banned Pokemon because that applies to all of them.

3. I've never seen a bad Pursuit prediction lead to a sweep. If this happens, your team is built poorly. And there is the strong chance that Deoxys-Speed users want to get their frail alien out, against the Dark type facing it. So its not really a 50/50.
If one had a better choice than sending in their Bisharp that's OHKOed by Deo's fighting move of choice and hoping to win the Sucker Punch/Pursuit guessing game, I think one would go to it.

I guess all those successful offensive teams that are destroyed by Deoxys-S are just built poorly. This is the 3rd generation in a row LO Deo is terrorizing offensive teams for the same reasons it always has and you somehow want to blame it on bad teambuilding?

It is the definition of a 50/50 because there is no "right" move. If they Superpower you on the attempted Pursuit, Bisharp's dead and you're probably getting swept since you most likely didn't have a better answer if you had to send that dude in on Deo. If they switch on your Sucker Punch, they come back in later, probably get another kill, and then you do this over again. Logically you could say "well he wants to come in again for another KO so I'll Pursuit" but what if he sees through that and kills you? If anything I'd say it's even in the Deo user's favor if you want to go that way because at least if you Sucker Punch you guarantee you won't lose right then and there, making switching a little safer, but even that can go the other way. 50/50.

4. I would think that a Pokemon with shitty stats for the most part, but great versatility isn't broken. Aegislash has better stats and is more versatile than Deoxys-Speed. So then you presume that the set Deoxys-Speed is running is a cleaner, because setting up a screen or hazard isn't all that catastrophic and won't make you "probably lose". So the presumption is that Deoxys is running an offensive set, and as defeated one Pokemon, so that you can revenge-kill it. A lot of people opt for a defensive set, and as I said, getting up a hazard/screen is not catastrophic, screens will wear off, hazards can be Spinned away, the only real danger is when it uses its almight 95/95 Attack stats, and is able to somehow sweep with them.
Those stats aren't the most impressive but it's using high powered moves with a Life Orb and it's got excellent super effective coverage so while "lack of power" is a nice argument in theory, in practice it just doesn't work like that. Similarly, hazards and screens may not have immediate effects on the battle but you are severely downplaying how important they can be especially when they're set up so easily.
 
So even if, logically, the Deoxys-S on my opponent's team is best suited as a dual screener, and it turns out to be an LO set that screws me over, that's my fault?


You're missing the point. It doesn't have to be Rayquaza, it can be any uber, because they all have some weaknesses and some checks. If your only logic is "x is checked by y and z therefore not broken" then you have to unban literally every banned Pokemon because that applies to all of them.


If one had a better choice than sending in their Bisharp that's OHKOed by Deo's fighting move of choice and hoping to win the Sucker Punch/Pursuit guessing game, I think one would go to it.

I guess all those successful offensive teams that are destroyed by Deoxys-S are just built poorly. This is the 3rd generation in a row LO Deo is terrorizing offensive teams for the same reasons it always has and you somehow want to blame it on bad teambuilding?

It is the definition of a 50/50 because there is no "right" move. If they Superpower you on the attempted Pursuit, Bisharp's dead and you're probably getting swept since you most likely didn't have a better answer if you had to send that dude in on Deo. If they switch on your Sucker Punch, they come back in later, probably get another kill, and then you do this over again. Logically you could say "well he wants to come in again for another KO so I'll Pursuit" but what if he sees through that and kills you? If anything I'd say it's even in the Deo user's favor if you want to go that way because at least if you Sucker Punch you guarantee you won't lose right then and there, making switching a little safer, but even that can go the other way. 50/50.


Those stats aren't the most impressive but it's using high powered moves with a Life Orb and it's got excellent super effective coverage so while "lack of power" is a nice argument in theory, in practice it just doesn't work like that. Similarly, hazards and screens may not have immediate effects on the battle but you are severely downplaying how important they can be especially when they're set up so easily.

The Beginner's guide to countering Deoxys-Speed -

Do you want to counter it? Use a Slowbro!

20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 120-143 (30.4 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 95-113 (24.1 - 28.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 4HKO
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 36-44 (9.1 - 11.1%) -- possible 9HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 40-48 (10.1 - 12.1%) -- possible 9HKO

The mixed cleaner set Deoxys cannot touch AV Slowbro, and AV Slowbro can also Regenerator off the damage when Deo switches, while chipping away with 3HKO Scald, when it can.

4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 94-112 (39 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Another Pokemon it can't touch is Ferrothorn, its also great to bulk many hits from many HO Pokemon.

236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 104-123 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 53-64 (15 - 18.1%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 133-156 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 90-107 (25.5 - 30.3%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ferrothorn is easily able to tank a hit, albeit not as well as Slowbro, from a Deoxys-Speed, and throw back a huge 2HKO Gyro Ball, EVEN IF Ferrothorn has to switch into an attack, it can handle it.

4 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 187-222 (77.5 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Another good response to Deoxys-Speed is Mega-Mawile.

236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 122-144 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 25-30 (8.2 - 9.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 26.3% chance to 3HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 52-62 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 190-224 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Although Psycho Boost can 2HKO, Mawile can mega-evolve and slam Deoxys for an OHKO.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 400-472 (165.9 - 195.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You know who else can beat Deoxys-Speed? Both M-Scizor/Scizor -

236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 117-139 (34 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 44-53 (12.7 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 82-97 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- 95% chance to 4HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 51-60 (14.8 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 60-71 (17.4 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 110-130 (31.9 - 37.7%) -- 94.7% chance to 3HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 61-71 (17.7 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO

And they both can OHKO it!
252+ Atk Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 306-362 (126.9 - 150.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 338-402 (140.2 - 166.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

How about Aegislash?

20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 127-151 (39.1 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 82-97 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Deoxys-S Superpower vs. Aegislash-Shield: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 36-43 (11.1 - 13.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Able to take even a Knock Off twice, and throw back an OHKO. And if you've weakened it a little, revenging it is no sweat.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 348-410 (144.3 - 170.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 152-180 (63 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Hey thats only 5 Pokemon, so I have to have one of these five on my team to beat a Deoxys-Speed, still overcentralising Jaffa Ball!
CB Dragonite can do it as well! -

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 179-211 (74.2 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 205-242 (63.2 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A QD Volcarona can do it to!

+2 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 660-776 (273.8 - 321.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 227-269 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

EDIT: SO CAN BISHARP if... its already in-

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 439-523 (182.1 - 217%) -- guaranteed OHKO


But I bet the argument is gonna come up - Pokemon can still have many checks and still be broken. Slowbro is a counter. Shove it in everytime you want it to wall Deoxys-Speed. Ferrothorn and Aegislash and Scizor and Mega-Mawile can do the job as well. Shove in an Excadrilll against hazard-setter, use one of the many checks to OHKO it when using screens setter. Also it appears your argument still stands regardless of how many checks you can list, it doesn't affect brokenness. THERE IS A COUNTER, which I am lead to believe is different from a check. But then you'll say so I have to use a Slowbro if I want to counter Deoxys! Thats not the only way! Exploit solo-type and shit-defenses with any of your priority (ideally Sucker Punch)
users or your bulkier attackers, watch the success.
 

HBK

Subtlety is my middle name
1. Well EITHER WAY you can make an educated guess, eg. Deo-S + Bisharp, means its probably hazard-setter. It doesn't take much to guess what set Deo is running, if you got it wrong then that's your fault. Blaming the Deoxys-S and banning it because you couldn't work out what set it was running.

2. You see the difference between Rayquaza and Deoxys-S is that Rayquaza has sky-high attack stats and decent-dual-typing, Deoxys has one-type which is susceptible to three types, pretty shit bulk, and pretty shit offensive stats by OU standards. It does many roles well however, but this doesn't mean its unhealthy for the metagame.

3. I've never seen a bad Pursuit prediction lead to a sweep. If this happens, your team is built poorly. And there is the strong chance that Deoxys-Speed users want to get their frail alien out, against the Dark type facing it. So its not really a 50/50.

4. I would think that a Pokemon with shitty stats for the most part, but great versatility isn't broken. Aegislash has better stats and is more versatile than Deoxys-Speed. So then you presume that the set Deoxys-Speed is running is a cleaner, because setting up a screen or hazard isn't all that catastrophic and won't make you "probably lose". So the presumption is that Deoxys is running an offensive set, and as defeated one Pokemon, so that you can revenge-kill it. A lot of people opt for a defensive set, and as I said, getting up a hazard/screen is not catastrophic, screens will wear off, hazards can be Spinned away, the only real danger is when it uses its almight 95/95 Attack stats, and is able to somehow sweep with them.
1. Deo-S + Bisharp could be an offensive Deoxys-S set and the opponent might slap SR onto something ambiguous like Terrakion/Landorus(both forms)/Tyranitar or Bisharp itself! By the time you realize, it might be too late! And if it is the hazard set, as my fellow users have pointed out, there isn't much you can do to stop it from doing it's job and you cannot be sure whether it's carrying Taunt + Psycho Boost, Taunt + Superpower or even Psycho Boost + Superpower!

2. That it's typing is terrible from a defensive perspective is a moot point as it is never meant to switch in on anything; It's bulk being terrible doesn't matter either largely due to the same reason (although additional bulk would help as a hazard setter) and it's fast enough to do it's job despite not being able to take multiple hits; It's mediocre attacking stats, with a Life Orb boost, are strong enough to clean up late game with it's pace and coverage which is why it is so deadly, only a noob would bring it out on turn 1 with the aim of destroying everything; It's ability to contribute to an offensive team in different ways makes it desirable, Since every one is using it, every one has to dedicate spots on their team to Deoxys-S checks and the cost of putting the wrong check on your team/wrongly predicting the set that it's running is too much; hence, it's unhealthy for the meta game.

3. Are you kidding me? Teams that include Deoxys-S are generally full of sweepers which require free switch ins (usually provided by Deoxys-S) to set up and it doesn't matter whether you kill Deoxys-S while it's trying to flee or while it stays in, you're giving your opponent a free switch in! Most suicide lead Deoxys-S carry a Focus Sash so the last thing that they would do is switch out (especially since most Pursuit users allow it to set up SR + 1 layer of Spikes). Pokemon is all about risk and prediction, so yes, unless you're facing 2 year old's on a daily basis, it is ALWAYS a 50-50.

4. Screens can make you "probably lose" as it makes it much easier for opposing pokemon to set up and it lasts long enough (thanks to light clay) for them to do so. Hazards and other pokemon weaken the opposing pokemon so that the LO set can easily power through them with it's pace, power (of which it has enough) and coverage.

The Beginner's guide to countering Deoxys-Speed -

Do you want to counter it? Use a Slowbro!

20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 120-143 (30.4 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 95-113 (24.1 - 28.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 4HKO
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 36-44 (9.1 - 11.1%) -- possible 9HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 40-48 (10.1 - 12.1%) -- possible 9HKO

The mixed cleaner set Deoxys cannot touch AV Slowbro, and AV Slowbro can also Regenerator off the damage when Deo switches, while chipping away with 3HKO Scald, when it can.

4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 94-112 (39 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Another Pokemon it can't touch is Ferrothorn, its also great to bulk many hits from many HO Pokemon.

236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 104-123 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 53-64 (15 - 18.1%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 133-156 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 90-107 (25.5 - 30.3%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ferrothorn is easily able to tank a hit, albeit not as well as Slowbro, from a Deoxys-Speed, and throw back a huge 2HKO Gyro Ball, EVEN IF Ferrothorn has to switch into an attack, it can handle it.

4 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 187-222 (77.5 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Another good response to Deoxys-Speed is Mega-Mawile.

236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 122-144 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 25-30 (8.2 - 9.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 26.3% chance to 3HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 52-62 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 190-224 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Although Psycho Boost can 2HKO, Mawile can mega-evolve and slam Deoxys for an OHKO.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 400-472 (165.9 - 195.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You know who else can beat Deoxys-Speed? Both M-Scizor/Scizor -

236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 117-139 (34 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 44-53 (12.7 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 82-97 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- 95% chance to 4HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 51-60 (14.8 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 60-71 (17.4 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 110-130 (31.9 - 37.7%) -- 94.7% chance to 3HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 61-71 (17.7 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO

And they both can OHKO it!
252+ Atk Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 306-362 (126.9 - 150.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 338-402 (140.2 - 166.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

How about Aegislash?

20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 127-151 (39.1 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 82-97 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Deoxys-S Superpower vs. Aegislash-Shield: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 36-43 (11.1 - 13.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Able to take even a Knock Off twice, and throw back an OHKO. And if you've weakened it a little, revenging it is no sweat.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 348-410 (144.3 - 170.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 152-180 (63 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Hey thats only 5 Pokemon, so I have to have one of these five on my team to beat a Deoxys-Speed, still overcentralising Jaffa Ball!
CB Dragonite can do it as well! -

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 179-211 (74.2 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 205-242 (63.2 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A QD Volcarona can do it to!

+2 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 660-776 (273.8 - 321.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 227-269 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

EDIT: SO CAN BISHARP if... its already in-

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 439-523 (182.1 - 217%) -- guaranteed OHKO


But I bet the argument is gonna come up - Pokemon can still have many checks and still be broken. Slowbro is a counter. Shove it in everytime you want it to wall Deoxys-Speed. Ferrothorn and Aegislash and Scizor and Mega-Mawile can do the job as well. Shove in an Excadrilll against hazard-setter, use one of the many checks to OHKO it when using screens setter. Also it appears your argument still stands regardless of how many checks you can list, it doesn't affect brokenness. THERE IS A COUNTER, which I am lead to believe is different from a check. But then you'll say so I have to use a Slowbro if I want to counter Deoxys! Thats not the only way! Exploit solo-type and shit-defenses with any of your priority (ideally Sucker Punch)
users or your bulkier attackers, watch the success.
LETS UN BAN GARCHOMP AND SALAMENCE IN DPP SINCE WE HAVE ICE SHARD USERS LIKE WEAVILE AND MAMOSWINE AND ICE BEAM ON EVERY POKEMON!
 
I'm not debating that Deo has counters (although if it knocks that Assault Vest off I bet Slowbro won't appreciate Psycho Boost too much anymore! not to mention that using Slowbro as a Deo-S switchin means that SR and either some Spikes or screens are going up uncontested). I'm saying that even the most broken of Pokemon have hard counters. For example, Kyogre is never beating Ludicolo, Gastrodon, or Quagsire. Does that make it not broken? I could revenge a +6/+6/+6 Xerneas with CB Scizor's Bullet Punch, or maybe even CB Talonflame Brave Bird if it's taken some damage. By your logic, that makes Xerneas not broken, right?

Fun fact: Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Mawile all get slammed by HP Fire, which is also useful for Skarmory and Aegislash, and giving you a second move to hit Bisharp with, making it harder for it to come in!

Here is the problem with the revenge killer strategy, let's use Dragonite for this example: Dragonite switches into whatever attack (just needs Multiscale broken for Ice Beam to OHKO, if SR is up then lol), I switch out of the ridiculously telegraphed ExtremeSpeed. You use Outrage instead? Deo comes back in and kills the thing that was trying to check it in the first place. You double switch instead of attacking? Deo is still around, ready to come in and kill something later, and then this happens again, like what I outlined with the Bisharp 50/50 in my last post.
 
you know ive always been of the mentality that if you have to bring up calcs in an argument it means your argument is weak. a solid argument regarding "counters" and "checks" should probably be solid enough that you dont have to bust out random ass calcs such as how much damage scizor takes from ice beam when it might eat an hp fire to the face.

I think you seem to miss something extremely important that i want all of you posters to take into account: remember youre playing pokemon. ill ask you a question, how many pokemons do you get? 6 good job!!! now, do you think those 6 pokemon will be able to deal with absolutely everything that an opponent can bring? no of course not! as you can see from the most succesful teams throughout the generations, even in DPP, with a much tinier pool of pokemon, abilities, moves, etc to pick from, teams still had that 1 or 2 things they flat out lost to, and even more that caused them enough trouble to completely cripple how the team functions.

ill use my own team to explain what i mean http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/enclose-murci%C3%A9lago-ranked-1.76014/

my most succesful team, ill go ahead and suck my own dick and say its one of the best all around teams made in DPP. i was such a babe that i added a threat list on the next post. lets see: this sexy ass team has a few weaknesses: infernape getting an SD meant an auto loss if flygon was under 70%, Machamp can potentially destroy the entire team with lucky confusions, and dd dragonite completely swept if vaporeon was weakened. what do all of these have in common? they only needed certain thing to be weakened in order to win the game. a good player will identify this and use this to his advantage. i can easily be smug and claim "no, my team has a sd infernape counter in flygon as it can revenge kill it" just like you are saying with cb dragonite for deoxys. or i can also say "my team has a counter to dragonite as only one set can beat vaporeon" which is exactly what youre saying regarding scizor and deoxys, if its hp fire deoxys you flat out lose scizor, just like i lose if its dd dragonite. in reality pokemon is a really complex game. we can lay out how we want a battle to go regarding the shit term of countering and whatnot, but in reality things play out so much different when you play the game.

lets go back to what i meant with only 6 mons. sure, you have aegislash, thats awesome. you now counter deoxys-s. you bring in aegislash on an ice beam, take 15%, which goes up to 20 due to the omniprescent SR. what happens after? you click shadow ball, as the deoxys picks hp fire or even knock off. you succesfully killed deoxys, congratulations. youre now left with a 45% aegislash. pretty good isnt it? except due to you having only 6 pokemon, you forgot to account for the greninja about to sweep your ass as your greninja counter in aegislash is weakened enough for it to kill. you only have 6 mons after all, your other 5 lay out the general team fluidity and strategy and aegislash was your glue to deal with greninja! or lets change it up a bit, you bring in dragonite, lets say SR isnt up since otherwise it dies to ice beam, deoxys takes an extremespeed, ice beams you, dnite is alive, deoxys dies to the second extremespeed. praise the fckin lord! you killed the raid boss. except now your keldeo counter is at 25% unable to switch in. that just made keldeo so much more threatening than deoxys was. this is the exact same situation i was talking about with flygon and infernape on the other team. sure i can bring flygon in on a tyranitar stone edge and kill it with EQ, but now if infernape gets an SD i flat out lose. so i better go to something else to take the stone edge! ah i went to jirachi and it used eq, well there goes jirachi, because i couldnt risk my flygon to take any damage. so even though i have a counter for infernape, like calcs would suggest, it would still fuck me in the ass. except in this case, deoxys is the tyranitar, and what is doing is serving 1 of 2 purposes (in case of the LO set). it works as an enabler to let other mons sweep you easier (see: greninja example) or it becomes the sweeper itself. You dont deal with it with your aegislash? well may the luck be on your side because if youre using an offensive team then it will most likely fuck your shit backwards.

and this is all just talking about the LO set, we can make a college thesis regarding the sheer fucking utility that deoxys has with its support sets


all of this shitty arguing aside, i want to add something that hasnt been added on the table just yet i dont think, that i mentioned on irc. idk if im just being too much of a moron here but i think the deoxys forms might be one of the reason stall is the dominant team right now. if you dont think stall is dominant i invite you to check the world cup logs thread, a well played stall will pretty much always win, its so fucking hard to break it becomes a matter of having to make absolutely reckless moves in order to gain *minimal advantages* that you need several of to create an edge. and a good player will punish you for them.

you might ask me why i think an offensive pokemon with such power as deoxys would be the reason why a defensive archetype is so strong, and its simply because offensive teams cant afford to leave deoxys without an answer. both formes. you can bring your shadow ball shadow sneak aegislash, but if you use that it just means your coverage is now limited, you cant have toxic, flash cannon, sacred sword. it just means stall will have an answer for it, be it chansey or a bulky water or whatever. you can no longer have stall breaking aegislash because you need it to deal with deoxys swiftly. same happens with other shit. you now need twave on thundurus to be able to outspeed and kill deoxys (although twave is a great move in its own, dealing with other sweepers) when you might not need it, so now you cant run a stall breaking thundurus set. you might need to run mega scizor to deal with deoxys, as opposed to another stall breaking mega, such as garchomp (who i would guess is so low in usage because even though its amazing it does almost nothing against offense).

i guess what im trying to say is that contrary to what we thought at the start (stall is dead, praise our new offensive overlords), we didnt account for the fact that the sheer amount of offensive threats is whats keeping offense in check. lets just look at a recent world cup match where i saw a set i thought i would never see. yusuke busting out the roost ice beam sub hpfighting latias. this set will deal with offense really fucking well. it deals with landorus and gliscor, does even more damage to dual weakness to ice dragons, can kill bisharp as it subs on a sucker punch, and will roost off damage. but you know what? its deadweight against stall. it will let every single chansey come in and do whatever the fuck it wants to do. it will let any specially defensive skarmory set up on your face, it will let mega charizard x come in and will o wisp whatever you bring in, it will let even ferrothorn set up as it laughs at the weak hp fightings its throwing. yusuke had this set as its glue and it ultimately won him the game, shitting on like everything on the offensive team his opponent brought. but if his opponent had brought stall, that would have been a different story. in a pokmon world in which his latias does not have to deal with so much offensive shit, it can use a set to do more to stall, thus hurting stalls chances to win. but sadly, since most offensive teams are so concentrated in not getting completely destroyed by another offensive team OR on sweeping before they get swept, they forget that stall has to be dealt with, which might be due to stall being a bit less seen than offense. you want to maximize your chances of winning, so you deal with the most common shit of course. but on the event someone brings the *less* common stall, then youre up for a painful ride. if you decided to deal with stall, and your opponent brought offense, well shit you might be in for a painful ride too. this is just me bringing up possibly stupid and irrelevant points, though. im not an XY expert sadly so i might just be speaking out of my ass here.

also if you think the reason the deoxys formes are so strong is "layers" as opposed to the sheer fucking versatility they bring with those layers, then you should just stop posting here. if you wont take the time to read through good arguments then dont take the time to make that shitty post thats been made a thousand times and refuted even more than that. FROSLASS GETS LAYERS TOO YAY but it doesnt fucking threaten to kill the spinner with a superpower. good luck running mental herb on it, by the way, as it doesnt have the absolutely insane bulk deoxys does to pull it off, i hope you enjoy getting OHKOd as you taunt what you think will taunt you back. SKARMORY GETS LAYERS YAY but it doesnt fucking have a billion other attacks to use as coverage. good luck dealing with faster taunters or shit like gyarados who will set up on your face.

and to the people crying that deoxys cant run all of those sets together:

Sure they don't run all these options in one set, but as a wise man with a scarred face once said: four moveslot syndrome doesn't make you less effective, it means you're more unpredictable and therefore more threatening. Plus it's not even like it needs to use all its moves, it can pick based on what its team needs.
heres my man bkc preaching some strong words that you should all get inside your skull. im tired of having to post this every fucking suspect test regarding a pokemon that has several options to run. YOURE CALLING AN EXPERT DRUMMER THAT CAN PLAY A SHITTON OF DIFFERENT DRUMMING STYLES BAD BECAUSE HE CANT PLAY THEM ALL AT THE SAME TIME. the fucker can pick whatever the fuck it wants to pick according to whatever his manager says will be best and then blow the fucking crowds mind because they werent expecting that shit and then everyone jizzes over how good it was. drummer = deoxys, manager = you for the dense. you get to pick whatever the fuck your deoxys uses. your team has bisharp covered but cant deal with sweepers? slap twave on it. your team fucking despises aegislash but doesnt care about random dragons flying? slap knock off on it. thats the beauty of it and it will make you jizz once you understand, because instead of running whatever set the smogon dex asks you to use you will make your own according to your teams needs and you will realize its oh so fuckin sexy. phew.

im tired of typing so ill finish it here. god fucking bless you and may our lord be with you all.

 
Banking on the RNG to bring out a pokemon you hope will finish Deoxys-D isn't a compelling argument that Deoxys-D isn't capable doing its job. It is quite possible that you have at least 2 mons that don't outspeed Deoxys-D (3 / 5 chance). Deoxys-D has enough bulk to survive strong hits + a priority move as well. For example, standard Balloon Aegislash + Aqua Jet from BD / AV Azumarill you need absolute max damage on Aegislash's Shadow Ball to guarantee the KO from Aqua Jet [1/16th chance]. The next highest damage role from Aegislash's Shadow Ball [1/16th chance] leaves you only a 25% chance for you to KO with Aqua Jet, and the chances get worse from there. And thats if you get out to your priority user on the red card.

You are framing it as if taking down Deoxys-D is getting anywhere against the opponent. Deoxys-D is intended to die. By killing it you give the opponent a free switch to a favorable matchup for whatever you killed Deoxys-D with. A hazard(s) down with a favorable matchup, while you have no hazards down, is a situation where the Deoxys-D user is dictating the game and in a favorable scenario.

I don't understand how you could be so dismissive of SR + 1 layer of Spikes as "2 at most". Allow me to direct you to this handy post here. Take a look at the output of all the entry hazards. SR + first layer of Spikes add the most damage out of all the entry hazards. Comparatively, the effect of the 2nd and 3rd layer of Spikes is smaller compared to SR + 1st layer of Spikes, it has a 1/2 of the damage output (+24% / +25% vs +12%). Those "2 hazards" are the most important and SR + Spikes taking a quarter of your health on every switchin is huge. Even if you manage to come in on an attack that does around 20%, you still have lost around half your health. In the scenario of using a pokemon with reliable recovery, which not all defensive pokemon have, then on that turn you are forced to recover your opponent gets a free switchin to a favorable matchup. This just happens if the opponent does around 20% with an attack. On a prediction or just a unavoidable scenario with the powerhouses OU has right now, your defensive Pokemon will fall behind on health quickly recieving damage on attacks above the 25% mark. Can you see now how warping SR + 1 layer of Spikes is to any sort of balanced or defensive playstyle?
In HO vs HO there is hardly any rng involved. After one Shadow Ball from Aegi Deo-D is so low on life that everything you can commonly find on HO will finish it off no matter what comes in. Maybe you get something slower but even then its just 2 layers.

Even if its supposed to die, it still means that the HO team is playing 5 vs 6 for the rest of the game, beeing one mon down is a pretty big disadvantage imo and nobody here seems to care about it. Yes most of the time your forced to switch after deo goes down but its still 5 vs 6 with 1 or 2 hazards on the field. Imo thats a pretty even situation. And as i mentioned on the last page, its even possible to use Deo-D against the HO player, with Sub Mawile for example. That way its basicly starting out with 4 vs 6 and 3 layers of hazards. And if you manage to get the defog of early, even if you lose it in the process, your atleast even, probably even in an advantegous position. Things like healing wish Latias can totaly kill HOs momentum by defogging, and then giving something a free switch + full heal. In the end it all depends on the plays but imo its not like HO has an advantage over the opponent just because of deoxys, with a proper answer on the opponents team both will most likely be more or less even in the beginning. Guess thats debatable as it depends on how higly you value those hazards but 5 vs 6 with 2 hazards is imo a fair trade. If deo gets of more, it has an edge, if gets up less thats not so good.

Your calculation on hazard damage assumes that the mon takes full damage from both which will not always be the case. There are lots of things that either resist rocks and/or are immune to spikes. And in the long run the amount of damage those hazards can do over the course of the game heavily depends on how long the HO player can prevent his opponent from cleaning them. If they stay the whole game they paid off big time and HO probably won, if they get removed 3 turns later HO is most like at a disadvantage. It totaly depends on how the game turns out, it can go one way or the other.

Just to make it clear, i am not saying that Deo-D is bad or that it doesnt pay off at all, i am just saying there are many ways to deal with it properly or even take advantage of it, and because of that its not broken in the sense of "overpowered", its good but it has risks and can be dealt with in a decent way. Whether or not its broken in the sense of overcentralizing the meta is another issue. Especially on the suspect ladder there was a shitload of HO but then again its a suspect ladder where you are supposed to use the suspects.
 
just got reqs, voting to ban both

i don't have much to say and mainly agree with rey and bkc's points

to emphasize and touch on things that haven't been hit on itt yet:

deo-d creates a game far more reliant on team matchup-- vs stall, if it's running the bulky sr / taunt / spikes / recover set @ rocky helmet, u r almost guaranteed a loss. even if u have a taunt talonflame, aegislash, magic coat alomonola, or whatever other deo-d "check" on stall, it can easily just double switch on come in a few turns later and u cannot defog on it. vs offensive it creates a very linear matchup with one or two 5050s, typically regarding bisharp or aegislash. this is just an unhealthy phenomena and manifests an inherent issue with the pokemon in the tier. aside from matchup related issues, deo-d's hazards-setting abilities are unmatched. although one may not think spikes are as potent in xy, which they aren't, a solid deo-d build can, for the most part, prevent defog and abuse spikes more effective than any other playstyle due to having access to fastmons. its support capabilities are the best in the tier and can create a solitaire-esque matchup at times for both players which leads me to find it unhealthy for the metagame. thus, i am voting to ban it.

deo-s is just kinda a no brainer for me. not only can it run a bulky hazards set similar to deo-d which also can prevent lati@s from defogging for giving up bulk, but it has a life orb set and screens set which makes it far more unpredictable and all sets can be equally potent. the unpredictability factor just sets it over the edge. as a life orb user, it can act as the team's revenge killer while still retains the power that a typical attacker has. that's just crazy. what's annoying about facing both of these pokemon is that u cant really lead bisharp in fear of a bulky set or superpower. you're pretty much obligated to knock off as if u sucker and they sr, you may be against 3 layers of hazards lol. deo-d's last move can be unpredictable as well. a lot of ppl are unaware of the set, but recover is FANTASTIC for giving an almost autowin against stall. twave / magic coat / superpower / mirror coat / counter etc are all used options and i really hate not knowing what items / sets there are. scouting vs pokemon which such potential to fuck you over is easier said than done to say the least

in general, i find both of their presences' to be harmful in xy and would like to see them get the boot
 
It doesn't matter what I say - even if I use the term revenge-killer in previous posts., regardless of what I say, I will get abused. Because I don't agree with the majority. I've used Deo-S and fully understand how it works. I've highlighted some parts of the post that are telling. I'll address the highlights in order. Physical Aegislash is just as viable as Life Orb Special Aegislash. I've been told usage doesn't matter, people have been very successful with a Physical Aegislash, which can serve plenty of other uses on a team like a Swords Dance sweeper and a teams spin-blocker. I only used Aegislash as an example, for the record. Moving on, when you say its hard to know what set its running. Well, from team preview, its easy to say what most Pokemon are gonna want to do, including Deo-S. THERE ARE a decent number of checks, which means something isn't broken, or hard to defeat. The third thing I've highlighted is very telling.The whole basis of your main argument, is that "it'll always make a difference", in every good battle, all 12 Pokemon should make a difference, something that "makes a difference" isn't broken.

Finally, Pursuit has become much more popular, and with proper prediction you can nab a Deoxys-S on the switch-out, that on top of priority moves like Shadow Sneak, Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed etc. running rampant means your fourth highlighted point is largely wrong. Anyway this will be my last post on this because so far I've convinced no one and this post probably won't convince anyone. The thing I have decided is that people on this site claim that everyone gets a choice and an opinion, but they won't tell you that only one opinion is right and if you don't agree with it, the community will eat you...
Jaffa, I'm sorry if I come off as abusive, but your arguments have been done in the past (specifically with MegaLuke and Genesect. More and more I'm regretting my role in Deo-S's last suspect test), and they were regarded as insignificant there as well. I highly suggest you skim through that thread.

Now, I actually do somewhat agree with those arguments though. There is a huge difference between rayquaza and Deoxys-S; that's why one was quickbanned and one is being suspect tested for a second time. There's even a pretty big difference between Deo-S and MegaLuke/Genesect. Deo is much less broken than either of them, and there are decent arguments that it should stay, but it is still broken and it won't stay.

It's too good at what it does and it does too much. There's been plenty of posts proving both, so I'm going to stop there.
 

Rotosect

Banned deucer.
I disagree with Deo-S being considered the best dual screener.
Klefki has Prankster, better type and bulk, so it can actually attempt to switch into resisted attacks and put the screens up mid-game much more easily than Deo-S.
Sure, Magic Coat and Taunt are advantages that can't be overlooked, but Deo-S uses them out of necessity on the dual screen set, since it has no useful resistances to speak of and will attempt to set the screens up against walls rather than offensive threats.
 
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