np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Alienation of the Wretched

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Karxrida

yeah I'm bitter
is a Community Contributor
I disagree with Deo-S being considered the best dual screener.
Klefki has Prankster, better type and bulk, so it can actually attempt to switch into resisted attacks and put the screens up mid-game much more easily than Deo-S.
Sure, Magic Coat and Taunt are advantages that can't be overlooked, but Deo-S uses them out of necessity on the dual screen set, since it has no useful resistances to speak of and will attempt to set the screens up against walls rather than offensive threats.
Deo-S can actually pretend to be a revenge killer, force something out, then "lol I gets da screens". Unpredictability lets you BS your way through a lot while Klefki can't force much out and is set up bait.
 
Klefki has Foul Play and T-Wave. It's not entirely set-up bait.

Main reason why it's not as good as Deo-S is because Deo-S has Taunt. You can't get rid of the screens until you get rid of Deo-S, and getting rid of Deo-S means a free switch in for something that checks your defogger. Also it doesn't have SR.
 
I have been laddering for reqs the last 3 days and i have tried almost every playstyle from DeoSharp Hyper Offense to Bulky Offense and Stall and now i have a pretty clear idea about the two Deoxys formes in the current metagame.

Deoxys-S, like almost everyone already said, is extremely unpredictable as it is can run a multitude of sets that are really threatening for offensive teams like Hazards lead, Life Orb Cleaner and Dual Screens not counting other extremely effective sets like the Rain dance and Stealth Rock+3 Attacks set. It has an enormous movepool and its ridicolous speed (it outspeeds even ScarfChomp and every DD sweeper) lets it do anything it wants well and it is almost guaranteed that Stealth Rock will go up. Its myriad of coverage moves (BoltBeam, Knock Off, Psycho Boost, Superpower, Fire Punch, Low Kick, and even Grass Knot) lets it revenge kill almost anything and by using more obscure moves like Substitute and Extremespeed it can also get past some of its strongest checks like Bisharp e Thundurus. Every set it runs forces multiple 50/50 for example, Taunt or Hazard (or screen) when using Hazards Lead or Screens set and Pursuit/Sucker when against Bisharp that makes it tricky and frustrating to deal with. I have had no problems with it while using stall but it threatens offense (and even balance) so much (you are kinda forced to run a check like Thundurus that relies on parahax not to die in the process) it deserves to be banned.

Deoxys-D, is less versatile than its speedy counterpart but certainly not less dangerous. It has awesome bulk that makes it impossible to OHKO bar critical hits with Supereffective moves and Mega Heracross and that, with Mental Herb, almost guarantees that Stealth Rock (and a layer or more of Spikes against some teams) will go up. It also has the tools to beat common "counter leads" like Bisharp and Excadrill (somewhat) with Superpower and Aegislash through the use of Mirror Coat (gimmicky but i have seen someone using that) making it super annoying to face and Taunt to stop Defog from anything that is not Latios or Latias (and those risk getting hit by Twave and Taunt and be worn down as Deoxys sets up hazards again). Its awesome stats and movepool also make it an excellent stallbreaker and through the use of Taunt and Recover can make life hell for "weaker" stall teams. However, as someone already said, it gives free turns to threatening stuff like Substitute Gengar and Calm Mind Landorus-I that can then kill it and something other making it somewhat more manageable than its fast brother. In any case i'll vote to ban this one too as it is still incredibly effective and hard to stop for a lot of teams.
 
Well I think the arguments have been done to death, but just to throw my general opinion out there since I'll be voting. It was interesting to see how these two faired with a new hazard remover added into the mix, but it really shows how Deoxys spikestacking is such a powerful playstyle regardless of what tools there are to stop it. The amount of crazy offensive powerhouses in XY don't help its cause and you could argue that they're the problem, but it's the easy hazards that help promote turning matches into coinflips of mini nukes getting kills or getting killed + rinse and repeat. This is also what I've gathered makes Defog less effective than it is on paper, since a lot of the time games against Deo teams are too fast paced to even waste time trying to get hazards off the field, and obviously Bisharp doesn't help. Add the fact that Aegislash made many spinners a poor choice, there's a problem.

Deo-S is in an awkward position since it's overshadowed by Deo-D right now especially as far as entry hazards go, but its versatility is insane. It can accomplish what Deo-D does if it wants, just differently. Being versitile isn't an argument I usually like using yet Deo-S is so unique that it brings a whole new definition to the word. There isn't really any other Pokemon that can run so many different kinds of sets so damn well, and predicting it incorrectly is punishing. I kinda feel like Deo-S deserves an individual test just to be fair and on the safe side, but I'm doubtful it would make a difference in the long run. This meta is a mess right now and the Deoxys forms are imo largely to blame, so I think the logical step to make it more enjoyable is to give these guys the boot
 

qpie

predatory
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Okies, there isn't much left to say that hasn't been brought up already so I'll try to make this short.


Last time we tested Deoxys-S I voted against the ban. I'm sorry. I'm so very, very sorry. It won't happen again. This time I am thoroughly convinced Deoxys-S needs to go.


Deoxys-D is a little more complicated. Please note that I will largely focus on suicide lead sets here since my experience with stallbreaker variants is fairly limited.

While Deoxys-D might not be awfully broken by itself I feel like it is unhealthy for the metagame by promoting formulaic, matchup-based play.

Then again, doesn't any other suicide lead (+5 team) do the same? Are leads like Terrakion or Garchomp who forfeit access to some of Deoxys' amazing support movepool in favor of offensive prowess truly strictly worse? How much added value does it offer over other Pokemon with access to multiple hazards (~Skarmory, Forretress, Smeargle)? Do those not encourage unhealthy playstyles? Do Deoxys' larger movepool/ superior stats really make that much of a difference? At which point exactly does it cross the line?

What do we do if Custap berries ever come back? What when if Klefki gets access to Stealth Rock?

While I am strongly lean towards banning Deoxys-D the fact that my reasoning behind this decision is mostly just that I feel it is unhealthy for the metagame - or some other vague fuzzy term - just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
 

Deoxys-D is a little more complicated. Please note that I will largely focus on suicide lead sets here since my experience with stallbreaker variants is fairly limited.

While Deoxys-D might not be awfully broken by itself I feel like it is unhealthy for the metagame by promoting formulaic, matchup-based play.

Then again, doesn't any other suicide lead (+5 team) do the same? Are leads like Terrakion or Garchomp who forfeit access to some of Deoxys' amazing support movepool in favor of offensive prowess truly strictly worse? How much added value does it offer over other Pokemon with access to multiple hazards (~Skarmory, Forretress, Smeargle)? Do those not encourage unhealthy playstyles? Do Deoxys' larger movepool/ superior stats really make that much of a difference? At which point exactly does it cross the line?

What do we do if Custap berries ever come back? What when if Klefki gets access to Stealth Rock?

While I am strongly lean towards banning Deoxys-D the fact that my reasoning behind this decision is mostly just that I feel it is unhealthy for the metagame - or some other vague fuzzy term - just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I'll try to answer those question.

Basically it comes down to these three things that really take it above and beyond other leads:
  • Access to Stealth Rocks + Spikes
    • People take for granted how large of an effect the initial layer of Spikes has. It is after all, the one that adds the most damage (+12%). On switchin's, pokemon neutral to both lose a quarter of their health. Now how does that effect the game? So in exchange for offensive presence, like Terrakion and Garchomp, the Deo-D user now punishes switches much harder. In the long-term, that puts way more pressure on the opponent than an early game strike with Terrakion and Garchomp (your opponent has to think harder). Whereas Stealth Rock covers almost everything, it is resisted by the most useful defensive type: Steel. Steel-types are the thorn in the side of many offensive pokemon, especially dragons and stuff like Mega-Mawile. Breaking down steel-types more easily takes less pressure off you to attack them and make mistakes.
    • Deo-D is the fastest user of of SR+Spikes outside of its other forms. I don't think I need to explain for you why that is useful for a lead.
  • Item slot acts as an extension of its movepool
    • All the pokemon that you listed rely on their iteam slot to make sure they can actually do their job. Terrakion, Garchomp, and Smeargle all usually run sash (although some Garchomp's are inclined to run rocky helmet or orb if feeling a little more risky) to stop stuff from easily OHKO'ing them. Skarmory and Forretress need to use Custap Berry to make sure they can actually get a layer of Spikes.
    • Unlike those other pokemon, Deoxys-D has enough bulk / speed to use whatever it wants in its item slot to cover up whatever its moveset does not cover. Mental Herb covers faster leads (Magic Coat), Red Card covers boosting sweepers (Thunder Wave), Rocky Helmet for Excadrill spinning (vs attacking move), damage reducing berries for specific counter leads, the list goes on...
  • Large movepool / lack of exploitable weaknesses means the Deo-D metagame can always adapt to any new counter-leads
    • A lot of people don't recognize that the types Deoxys-D is weak to (Dark, Ghost, and Bug) don't have access to high base power moves. The only exception to this I can find is Megahorn and Knock Off. That is why we have these absurd scenarios where pokemon with base 130+ attacking stats and STAB still can't OHKO (eg. Aegislash and Shadow Ball). This is backed up by huge defenses. Stuff like Garchomp and Smeargle and Skarmory have defensive weaknesses even to pokemon without high-powered, super effective STAB's (eg. Ice Beam Kube KO's Skarmory through Multiscale and Fire Blast + ES MixNite from BW as an example).
    • Deo-D's large movepool + free item slot (essentially a fifth move) let it constantly adapt to the metagame not matter what new counter lead comes about. Tanga Berry in the Genesect era, Superpower and Magic Coat when people figured out Knock Off Bisharp and Aegislash could limit it to SR, Taunt + Thunder Wave when the metagame starting getting way more offensive and used other faster leads, and now we got this Rocky Helmet + Recover + taunt bullshit when some defensive teams have been bouncing back a little. So Deo always has the option to work around stuff even when new counters pop up.
These things together all make deo-d the most compotent support offensive lead outside deo-s. It doesn't encourage anything healthy for the meta and does some bonkers things that can just leave an opponent way behind, offense and defense alike.
 
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Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
Bleah I finally made reqs and I didnt' face a lot of deo-s's at all, which made me quite happy seeing as how its the most versatile and broken little fucker ever to exist.

What I mostly saw was teams of this format: Deo-D/Balloon (usually) Aegislash/Bisharp/Double genies/Some mega to sweep
The mega mons i saw were pinsir, gyara, char-x, and mega maw; I think mega tar is a bad fit cuz then AV conk is too big of a problem.

That team right there was basically 60% of my matches and it made laddering so incredibly stale and gay and heterosexual. It was retarded.
Deoxys-D is so incredibly competent at its job that you literally have a template of 5 mons ready for you, you can choose your last slot from a choice of 4 mons, and you're basically ready to go against 90% of the teams you face on the ladder.

While i'm here and still rambling, I'd like to bring up an effective Deo-d set i was tinkering with: sr/taunt/t-wave/superpower.
I was using spikes over superpower, but I had noticed that many players simply lead with bisharp and just knock off'd turn one for the OHKO, and it often bothered me seeing as how I'd have to taunt to play it safe and make sure they dont' set up an SD.
I had also noticed that against competent offensive players, I would usually only get up one layer of hazards whilst preventing any set up, and thus I just ignored spikes altogether.

In the time that I actually bothered myself to try such a boring template of a team, I think this deo-d set worked best. So many people just led with bisharp only for it to be cleanly OHKO'd turn 1, it made me pretty happy. After that, they may try to set up with some random shit, and the smarter ones just go for the kill as I set rocks.
True, i may only get up rocks, but i'd say rocks+dead bisharp > rocks + spikes
 

elodin

Tournament Banned
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past Smogon Snake Draft, SPL, and WCoP Champion
So I finally got reqs and I have to say I'll be banning both Deo-D and Deo-S for the exact same reasons they were banned in BW.

Deoxys-D always puts at least 1 layer of hazards on the field, and mostly 2. This is just broken as fuck because most Pokémon on your team are going to lose 25% of your HP when they come in and this just gives HO a huge advantage over other playstyles, considering stuff like Mega Mawile are already strong enough to muscle through the entire metagame even without hazards up. It can be a real pain in the ass for every single playstyle there is. Defog users are just bad vs Deo-D teams because they always run Bisharp / Thundurus, and rapid spinners not always work due to Balloon Aegislash and variations of Deo-D that you may not be expecting, such as Recover and Superpower. It forces several 50/50s against other leads, which I personally don't think it's healthy at all for the metagame, and it's only OHKO'd by a really small portion of the metagame. It can run items to prevent poor matchups, such as Red Card against faster Pokémon that can 2HKO it and Mental Herb to prevent faster Taunts. Of course a single Deo-D can't run everything I listed at the same time, but it generally gets 2 layers up and it's still the same thing it did in BW, so yeah, ban.

Deoxys-S is probably the best Pokémon in the metagame right now due to its versatility and ability to be effective at whatever it wants to run. He is the best revenge killer on the tier by far, always gets Stealth Rock on the field and manages to just be good against every playstyle as well as Deo-D. There are so many Deo-S variations it's not even funny, and they're all good. I've seen people running standard revenge killer, dual screens, scarfed with Trick, bulky hazards setter, Focus Sash leads etc. You never know what Deo-S set the opponent is running, and by the time you find out it may just be too late. It's a Pokémon that has the potential to just turn a match around in 1 turn, and this is fucking stupid. Not only this as it forces so many silly "prediction" situations it gets stupid. Deo-S is just too versatile and effective against every playstyle, so it has to go.
 
It isn't really the case for Deo-D. Taunt reks him, and he can easily be set up on. However, it's really scary when you know every time you switch, a Spikes stack will be up. Deo-D doesn't have that great of an offensive presence either; it can run Night Shade/Seismic Toss if it wants damage, and Knock Off if it wants utility. Access to Screens helps, but then when Knock Off hits your Screens will only stay on the field 5 turns. Deo-D sits at a middling speed tier also; 90 isn't bad, but it isn't great. Magic Coat exists, and so does Magic Bounce. IMO, don't ban.
Mental Herb exists you know.

Magic Bounce exists on Espeon(lol), Xatu (even more lol) and Mega Absol.

Deo D also has Superpower which means Mega Absol gets wrecked.

Magic Coat exists on pretty much nothing that is OU viable outside of Mega Luvdisc and guess what, Deoxys-D himself. If it does exist on something thats OU viable, it probably has something else it much rather run in the moveslot for efficiency sake.
 
Another problem with either form of Deoxys is that simply by being on a team, they add a level of pressure and free momentum that no other pokemon can really replicate. The moment you see one or the other on a team, you're pretty much forced to lead with a pokemon who has the ability to deal with them in one way or another, while the player with Deoxys is free to lead with whatever they want. It's a winning situation for them no matter what. If they decide to bluff and not lead with deoxys, it's usually pretty easy to see what pokemon will be used to 'counter' him, and to counter that in response. Later on in the game, it allows Deoxys to come in and do his job for free off of a switch. Should they decide to lead with Deoxys anyway, there are still very few pokemon that can deal with either form without letting them get at least part of their mission accomplished.

Of course, the guy on the receiving end has no real choice in the matter, since the price of predicting a bluff that isn't there is so costly in momentum that they can't afford to do anything but lead with the most predictable option.
 
Deoxys-S

Ban. In a metagame lacking many quality Scarf users – many of the best ones are Ground types that are often forced into many 50/50’s with the number of Flying types currently in OU – Life Orb Deoxys-S is a ridiculously effective revenge killer with insane coverage, good power, and the ability to change moves. It’s also faster than any common Scarf user, meaning it can revenge Scarf Garchomp with Ice Beam and Scarf Excadrill with Superpower. Its other sets are solid too. The bulky Rocky Helmet hazards lead is equally as good as Deoxys-D’s hazard set in my eyes, particularly when it carries the element of surprise and is still extremely fast. If Deo-D somehow gets banned and Deo-S stays (extremely unlikely), Deo-S will easily take over Deoxys-D’s role. Bulky Rain Dance is also the best manual setter of Rain at the moment, allowing Kingdra/Kabutops/Omastar and company to punish offensive teams early in the match, and Dual Screens can Taunt Defog users that try to get rid of them (nothing carries Brick Break lol), giving offensive teams that stack set-up sweepers a massive early-to-midgame advantage.

Deoxys-D

Ban. One can argue that Deoxys-Defense is not as broken as Deoxys-Speed because unlike its speedier brother, Deoxys-D can only run one effective moveset in this metagame. The problem is that Deoxys-D can modify said set to alter (and severely limit) the number of Pokemon that can hold it to one hazard. Lead Bisharp risk getting OHKOed by Superpower, Defog Latios/Latias can get crippled by Thunder Wave, and since Deo-D always carries Taunt, slow Defoggers generally do not anti-lead it well at all. Knock Off/Foul Play Mandibuzz might look good as an anti-lead on paper, but will still give up two hazards as the two moves simply will not hit Deo-D lacking attack investment particularly hard. Deoxys-D can even run Psycho Boost to maintain decent offensive presence while ambushing Mega Heracross, one of the more effective anti-leads at the moment. If there were a reliable way to stop Deoxys-D without resorting to gimmicky and mediocre Magic Bounce pokemon, it wouldn’t be such an issue. Hell, I’d settle with holding the damn thing to one hazard! Unfortunately, it will get 2 or more with regularity. Much has been said about the ability for Deoxys to adjust its items based on team need so I won’t add further to that.

Regarding the DeoSharp core: It’s true that Bisharp alone cannot reliably stop Defog attempts, as the metagame has plenty of ways to deal with a +2 Bisharp (Quagsire/Mega Heracross/Breloom/Mega Gyarados/etc). However, DeoSharp teams commonly carry 2-3 fast Taunt users (including Deoxys itself) to shut down Defog attempts as well as Air Balloon Aegislash which can spinblock Excadrill for a period of time. Aegislash is also a nightmare for Starmie and the mediocre Forretress to spin on, though the uncommon Mega Blastoise is an excellent weapon vs Deoxys-D teams and I enjoyed using it this suspect test. Of course, deadly set-up sweepers can deter Defog attempts as well (can a slightly weakened Zapdos really always afford to Defog on a Mega Gyarados mid-game, giving it a chance to set up?) I find the “offensive pressure” aspect of DeoSharp is effective vs. offense and balance, whereas Taunt users screw up stall teams that should have checks to your sweepers but struggle when they cannot use Defog AND non-damaging attacks. Therefore, proper DeoSharp teams have more than one way to deter/block anti-hazard measures. Not all hazard Deoxys teams need Bisharp of course!

TL;DR they are too good at what they do…way too good.
 
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What makes Deoxys-D that different from Shuckle, an RU Pokemon that's also guaranteed one/two layers of hazards (thanks to Mental Herb and Sturdy)? If we end up just replacing one hazard stacker with a slightly inferior one, then maybe something other than Deoxys is the problem.
Shuckle also lacks Magic Coat and Taunt to stop other leads that will inevitably be faster
 
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Let's face it both forms are incredibly powerful. Let's not even consider Deoxys-S at the moment since that, to me, should be unquestionably banned. Now analyzing Deoxys-D I can say that this is a pokemon that has the astounding ability to simply outshine almost all other pokemon in its specific role in the meta. In addition to it over centralizing the meta, Deoxys-D does not have enough threats to make players think twice in throwing him out there. Deoxys-D is pretty much a safe choice for stall teams. Yes indeed hazards are less potent given the new defog change, however they are still strong. Given that, stall teams pretty much always user Deoxys-D. Here we have a pokemon that is a near 100 percent pick for a certain type of generalized team. By generalized I mean that we aren't talking about specific teams here that have cores and essentials like weather teams have weather starters. I mean that Deoxys-D is an excellent pick for any defensive team, outshining all other alternatives. What should be done when you have a pokemon that essentially forces a centralization of the meta and has hardly any weaknesses that punish it for centralizing the meta? Deoxys-D is free to dominate. There are no checks in place to regulate the pokemon's usage. This has ultimately a harmful effect on the meta. It is simply too powerful without any sort of weakness to compensate for its tremendous power.
 
Let's face it both forms are incredibly powerful. Let's not even consider Deoxys-S at the moment since that, to me, should be unquestionably banned. Now analyzing Deoxys-D I can say that this is a pokemon that has the astounding ability to simply outshine almost all other pokemon in its specific role in the meta. In addition to it over centralizing the meta, Deoxys-D does not have enough threats to make players think twice in throwing him out there. Deoxys-D is pretty much a safe choice for stall teams. Yes indeed hazards are less potent given the new defog change, however they are still strong. Given that, stall teams pretty much always user Deoxys-D. Here we have a pokemon that is a near 100 percent pick for a certain type of generalized team. By generalized I mean that we aren't talking about specific teams here that have cores and essentials like weather teams have weather starters. I mean that Deoxys-D is an excellent pick for any defensive team, outshining all other alternatives. What should be done when you have a pokemon that essentially forces a centralization of the meta and has hardly any weaknesses that punish it for centralizing the meta? Deoxys-D is free to dominate. There are no checks in place to regulate the pokemon's usage. This has ultimately a harmful effect on the meta. It is simply too powerful without any sort of weakness to compensate for its tremendous power.
You must be playing the wrong game, since Deoxys-D is part of every offensive team.
 
DeoSharp is a pretty nasty core.
I have even put Hidden Power Fighting on my Latios just to lure Bisharp in and kill it with success...but for what price? Having my Latios at low enough health to be revenge killed wasting my change to get off a defog and while with Latias it is even worse since almost anything gets an knock off and just does not die to one or two hits (should I really just run Ice Beam for Landorus-T on the switch?).

If I were able to get enough points on the ladder I would vote for both Deoxys being banned.
 
DeoSharp is a pretty nasty core.
I have even put Hidden Power Fighting on my Latios just to lure Bisharp in and kill it with success...but for what price? Having my Latios at low enough health to be revenge killed wasting my change to get off a defog and while with Latias it is even worse since almost anything gets an knock off and just does not die to one or two hits (should I really just run Ice Beam for Landorus-T on the switch?).

If I were able to get enough points on the ladder I would vote for both Deoxys being banned.
Honestly, the ubiquitous presence of Deo based hyper offense has been enough to stop me from playing even on the normal OU ladder for now. I'd not want to even think of having to try playing on the suspect ladder. Service or not, it's not worth my sanity.
 

Imma Fly

Who needs wings when you have Rokushiki?
Just some thoughts on the Deoxys formes (though I am guessing that many people have already thought along the same lines):


Deoxys-S - Ban

This thing is so versatile that it is not even funny. It is capable of running almost every other set ranging from (the list is not exhaustive) Sash hazard setter, Life Orb revenge killer, even Light Clay dual screens+rocks+taunt, or even a mix between different sets, each set able to carry its own weight (or more). There isn't even a need to go into detail on how great its 101 sets are, the fact of Deoxys-S's reliability is common sense to anyone with basic knowledge of competitive battling. Now, this also poses another unique disadvantage to the opponent. Which set does the Deoxys run? Is it the hazard setter of the opposing team? Is it going to be the lead or not? These are the issues that anyone going against a team with Deoxys-S has to deal with, which alone puts them at a big disadvantage. The person could very well feint a lead with Deoxys-S, only for him to send out something like Landorus-T on maybe a predicted Bisharp or Aegislash, and Deoxys-S could simply come in later in the game and pull of its job. Even if Deoxys-S is the lead, the issue of "what set does it freaking run?" causes another big headache anyway. For all you know, it could be a screener setting up 8 turns worth of dual screens in front of your Bisharp as you go for the Sucker Punch (paving the way for a setup sweeper to destroy at least 2-3 of your pokes), or even a Life Orb variant with Superpower for all you know. Point is, when facing Deoxys-s, it is almost impossible to know what set it is running (unless you played that fellow before), and you are just forced to blindly guess and hope for the best. Heck, Deoxys-s can’t even be counterteamed technically since there is no one pokemon that can counter all of its sets, and unless you played your opponent before, you can’t exactly predict what set is being used (unless you just want to counterteam a few players in question, which would mean you lose out more in general). As a result, more often that not, the person that is using Deoxys-S is effectively has the momentum of the game right in his/her hands.

Now, even if you successfully predict the set your opponent is using, it does not mean that Deoxys-S is not able to perform its duty. Screens and hazards can still be set (with or without some double switching depending on the situation), revenge killer variants still are able to place offensive pressure as long as they aren’t KOed. It still doesn’t change a thing for your opponent. The Deoxys is not going to lose its utility just because you might have figured it out. Barring your opponent being “unintelligent” or just plainly being Captain Obvious, the only possible change is that you wrongly predict the set and let your opponent have an easier time.

In addition of the element of surprise, as what people before me have highlighted, another potential advantage lies in the fact that it is capable of weakening what is supposed to be your check against certain threats, which makes you more prone. For instance, you might rely on Aegislash as a check to Thundurus especially if your team contains stuff like Landorus/ Gyarados, forcing Thundurus to switch out and back in on rocks (assuming you placed them), weakening it enough to prevent a sweep. Now, with your Aegislash taking a Knock Off from Deoxys-S, I highly doubt it can tank hits very well after that.

While it can be debated that since Deoxys-S can be used by anyone, it’s their fault that they didn’t run Deoxys-S. However, a pokemon that is top notch in performing multiple roles that basically eliminates competition for team supporters is something that is over-centralizing the metagame, which equates to a reduction in competitiveness anyway. Moreover, providing zero synergy in terms of defense, it is mainly gives offensive/hyper-offensive teams an unfair advantage since you can’t expect Deoxys-S to be run on Stall or most Balanced teams in the first place. I honestly don’t think that something like that should remain in the OU metagame.



Deoxys D – Ban

Although it is way more predictable in terms of its usage (discounting a couple of geniuses I met using a scarf Focus Blast set), the level support that it provides for hyper-offense is just ridiculous. Usually being DeoSharp + 4 more fast offensive users that can either Taunt or hit extremely hard or a team built around the same concept, it just makes slow moving Defog users experiencing living hell when trying to remove the hazards. Their options are: to risk being taunted and severely losing momentum, defog and give Bisharp +2 attack to make ensure that teammates will buckle under Knock Off/Iron Head/Sucker Punch, or simply defog and get KOed, with Deoxys-D being able to simply come in and set up once again. And this is assuming that the opponent doesn’t even try to double switch, forcing the defog users to come into the hazards multiple times and risk getting KOed even before they can defog. Even Excadrill has to predict correctly multiple times to be able to get rid of the famous Air Balloon Aegislash in order to simply remove hazards that Deoxys-D can just replace. Weigh in the fact that one wrong prediction can cause Excadrill to die in vain or force the game’s momentum to be relinquished over to the opponent, it just tilts the advantage way over in favor of the Deoxys-D team. In any case, the hazards are going to matter significantly. Sure, prediction goes both ways regardless of what countermeasure is adopted for hazards. Definitely, your chance of winning this mind game is not zero. It is just that your opponent has a way higher chance usually to win since the odds are stacked against you.

One might argue that fast defog users, with the Lati twins being prime examples, can help to even things out. While it is true, (beware of Pursuit using Bisharp though) you cannot expect to argue that every team is supposed to carry a Lati for this purpose, especially when a more suitable teammate depending on the team composition could be used instead.

Moreover, other checks/counters to Deoxys-D, such as Bisharp (ironically), are more often that not, only able to fit naturally on offensive teams itself. Once again, this forces defensive/balanced teams to fight an uphill battle.

Of course, if you use an offensive playstyle / like a metagame characterized as offense/hyper-offense, naturally both Deoxys formes wouldn’t seem overbearing. Even then, in terms of offensive support, they do over-centralize the face of that role in a way which is not exactly the most healthy for the metagame. Then again, do take into consideration on how other playstyles have their viability severely limited as a result.



Having said so, I understand that some might disagree, having alternate views. I have no intention in making this a “I am right and you are wrong, so you have to agree with me” kind of thing. This is just an opinion, feel free to disagree with it to the max.
 
Deoxys-D BAN

Deoxys-D is the epitome of an over-centralizing uncounterable mon. And I mean uncounterable not in the sense that it can't be killed, but simply because it will always get to do what the team wants it to do. In almost every game Deoxys-D will most certainly get up at least two layers of hazards if not three or four. In addition to that, it can paralyze mons that could be a potential problem thereby increasing its versatility. Unless you run LO Scolipede on every one of your teams (LOL) you are going to have to deal with hazards on your side of the field. Defogging or Rapid Spinning are obvious options but the fact that max speed Deoxys-D outspeeds the majority of defoggers allows it to taunt them and maintain hazards. The only viable defoggers which outspeed are Latios/Latias and they are effectively trapped and killed by a simple Bisharp switch in. This is what makes Deoxys-D so dangerous. The fact that it will essentially always put up hazards allows the rest of the team to put on tremendous offensive pressure and simply use momentum and pure power to win. Offensive Rapid Spinners such as Excadrill get blocked by Aegislash (balloon or not) thereby letting Deoxys-D be a continued presence on the field even after it has died. Deoxys-D leads to cookie-cutter offensive teams that can just rampage through if a player is even remotely unprepared. Even prepared players have problems if they misplay even once. It allows for players to mindlessly win a game only because they follow a formula rather than playing with actual skill, through teambuilding and in battle. Over-centralizing and incredibly cancerous. In my opinion Deoxys-D needs to get the fuck out of the meta :]

Deoxys-S BAN

Deoxys-S is a little more complicated for me. I've never personally had too much problem with Deoxys-S because it is relatively frail and can often be limited to only Stealth Rocks on the field rather than rocks + spikes. Also, I haven't had too much problem with the offensive set since LO wears it down pretty quickly and with good prediction it can be relatively easy to play around. And a -2 Deoxys-S is excellent set-up fodder for a number of potential threats. However, its versatility truly is unreal. The fact that it can set up hazards, or set up screens, or facilitate a rain team, or present itself as a powerful threat shows the unpredictability of Deoxys-S. Now while I haven't had too much problem with Deoxys-S I can see the potential it has to become an over-centralizing nuisance. Deoxys-D is one of the best responses to Deoxys-S due to its ability to run Mental Herb. However, after Deoxys-D gets banned, which it most certainly will, the usage of Deoxys-S will skyrocket and its versatility will be even more pronounced. Its potential to be the ultimate support mon through hazards, screens, or rain is unparalleled and if we don't ban it now I foresee another suspect test in the future. I can't say I didn't have fun using Deoxys-S though. Magic Coat Deoxys-S is the best counter to Deoxys-D reflecting taunts, paralysis, or hazards. Maybe I didn't want to ban it because of personal bias LOL

Hopefully now the meta will shift more towards balance rather than hyper offense. That would be pretty great n_n
 
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