What's manaphy going to do? Can't calm mind to stop grass knot (or looking at that damage gunk shot does the trick)
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]
- Thread starter haunter
- Start date
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thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Lol ok who runs scald ninja, manaphy weighs 0 pounds, klefki and sableye are amazing mons(magnet rise klefki ftw) and they dont need recovery to beat something killing itself with life orb. Gunk shot misses, all the counters weigh nothing, and there are other offensive checks as well. Think Priority and scarfers. Greninja leaving will just kill hyper offense and leave us with mega slowbro stall, and keeping it is ok because it is not broken. And sorry, ninja doesnt get head smash.
(nix edit: wording was confusing but he was talking about Bisharp vs. Mandibuzz.)
I'm gonna draw this parallel again: It's like hydreigon, except faster. It's pretty much genesect again, it has good mixed attacking stats, but kills itself to hazards and life orb recoil. If you think genesect was broken, go ahead, ban this too, but it wasn't and this isn't.
This is about how every page in this thread looks to all staff, OU mods, and me:
Here is why there are so many deletions
Here is why there are so many deletions
- People made posts about how Greninja will be too bad for Ubers.
- People made posts about how we should have a tier between OU and Ubers. (Honestly if you want one, just start your own PS! server)
- People made posts about how we should ban Protean / Gunk Shot
- People responded to those posts
Errr Set up Rain, Rest, CM, Rest, CM, Rain etc etc? Greninja is set up fodder for CM Manaphy on all Greninja sets. Gunk shot (again questionable accuracy) is a 3HKO and can be played around as well. Like I added the only thing to watch out for is HP Grass which with S.Def 16 never kills either outside of crit and again can be set up on.
The fact you just compared greninja to genesect is just silly..
Who runs scald ninja? Who ever wants to! Greninja can run whatever the fuck it wants, that's the problem. Scouting it's moveset is extremely risky as if greninja does carry scald he can potentially cripple your so called check or counter.
Scarfed are revenge killers to greninja, there is not a single scarfer or priority user that wants to take burns, coverage moves, or just flat out risk coming in. This is more or less like mawile, you need to sap a mon to get a safe switch in and kill it (if it stays in)
Yeah grass knot is balls, forgot about the weight.. however:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 144-172 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- 90.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
You just switched manaphy in.. ok, now you're in 2HKO range. What exactly are you going to hit greninja with before he finishes you off?
Besides, manaphy isn't some dominating force in OU. It's like saying mawile should've stays because weezing and arcanine, otherwise subpar pokemon in the meta countered it. Manaphy needs rain inorder to setup and luck to manage +6.
+6 0 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 228-268 (79.7 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Like it's getting +6 anyway..
Manaphy DOES lose to HP Grass 'Ninja, though
216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (guaranteed with Stealth Rock)
Strictly speaking, since there is a viable move that Greninja can run that beats Manaphy, Manaphy is not a hard counter, so I don't know what Jukain was getting at with that. SpD Alomomola is also not a hard counter:
216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 242-289 (45.3 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(GK hits Alomomola just as hard)
HPump does way too much to Klefki... I'm pretty sure most of the "Full Counters" Jukain listed are move-dependent counters.
Sorry, just thought I'd chime in and point out that some of these "Full Counters" really aren't hard counters at all.
216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (guaranteed with Stealth Rock)
Strictly speaking, since there is a viable move that Greninja can run that beats Manaphy, Manaphy is not a hard counter, so I don't know what Jukain was getting at with that. SpD Alomomola is also not a hard counter:
216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 242-289 (45.3 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(GK hits Alomomola just as hard)
HPump does way too much to Klefki... I'm pretty sure most of the "Full Counters" Jukain listed are move-dependent counters.
Sorry, just thought I'd chime in and point out that some of these "Full Counters" really aren't hard counters at all.
He, sure it is a Counter to no low Kick variants however most ones carry one right now and if the no low kick variant would be problem there would be many counters. The other fact is you even if he counters the no low kick variant, you can be never sure if he is the no low kick variant or the other one os it is hard to play againts him.
RoyalDispenser
I think you're misunderstanding what a counter is. A counter is a Pokemon that can come in and wall a Pokemon as well as reasonably threaten it. You don't have to OHKO something to threaten it; the fact that these Pokemon can tank repeated hits while being able to cripple it with a Toxic or wear at in return is enough. The way you're looking at the metagame and what's viable is basically tunnel vision; I assure you that every single Pokemon on that list is viable and effective, though obviously to varying degrees. Chansey can heal off any damage with Soft-Boiled/Wish and threaten Greninja with Seismic Toss, potentially combined with some sort of status. Porygon2 can take a hit under most reasonable circumstances and it's silly to exclude based on rare instances of hax. The specific investment I was referring to for Mega Sableye allows it to take rather little from Dark Pulse, meaning that one flinch will not mean the end of it. CM Manaphy doesn't really care about Grass Knot, though HP Grass can be a bit annoying but to be blunt it's kind of a crappy option. Klefki is a slightly more situational counter, but depending on Greninja's moveset can handle it remarkably; non-Hydro Pump variants fail to do any meaningful damage to it, while Hydro Pump is far from a 2HKO anyways. As for Gyarados, Scald Greninja is never used among good players and RestTalk is certainly not just for Greninja; it is to keep Gyarados healthy.
SDef Cresselia is vulnerable to flinches which can make it unreliable, that is true, and Alomomola is more of a move-specific counter so that's my bad Adamant Zoroark. I'll edit my post to reflect those concerns.
Let me also make it very clear that I am not arguing against a ban for Greninja, but rather attempting to show that its counters are mostly passive and fit pretty much exclusively on stall/semi-stall teams, which makes it impossible to prepare for defensively as far as balanced teams are concerned. The goal of my post was to provide a comprehensive list of said counters so there isn't blatant misinformation flinging around on both sides.
@below: I am not posting a full response to that, but you're kidding yourself if you think that those Pokemon are not counters just because they rely on wearing it down instead of taking it out at once. That is not the requisite for a counter. You also have provided no evidence to validate the statement you made below that.
I think you're misunderstanding what a counter is. A counter is a Pokemon that can come in and wall a Pokemon as well as reasonably threaten it. You don't have to OHKO something to threaten it; the fact that these Pokemon can tank repeated hits while being able to cripple it with a Toxic or wear at in return is enough. The way you're looking at the metagame and what's viable is basically tunnel vision; I assure you that every single Pokemon on that list is viable and effective, though obviously to varying degrees. Chansey can heal off any damage with Soft-Boiled/Wish and threaten Greninja with Seismic Toss, potentially combined with some sort of status. Porygon2 can take a hit under most reasonable circumstances and it's silly to exclude based on rare instances of hax. The specific investment I was referring to for Mega Sableye allows it to take rather little from Dark Pulse, meaning that one flinch will not mean the end of it. CM Manaphy doesn't really care about Grass Knot, though HP Grass can be a bit annoying but to be blunt it's kind of a crappy option. Klefki is a slightly more situational counter, but depending on Greninja's moveset can handle it remarkably; non-Hydro Pump variants fail to do any meaningful damage to it, while Hydro Pump is far from a 2HKO anyways. As for Gyarados, Scald Greninja is never used among good players and RestTalk is certainly not just for Greninja; it is to keep Gyarados healthy.
SDef Cresselia is vulnerable to flinches which can make it unreliable, that is true, and Alomomola is more of a move-specific counter so that's my bad Adamant Zoroark. I'll edit my post to reflect those concerns.
Let me also make it very clear that I am not arguing against a ban for Greninja, but rather attempting to show that its counters are mostly passive and fit pretty much exclusively on stall/semi-stall teams, which makes it impossible to prepare for defensively as far as balanced teams are concerned. The goal of my post was to provide a comprehensive list of said counters so there isn't blatant misinformation flinging around on both sides.
@below: I am not posting a full response to that, but you're kidding yourself if you think that those Pokemon are not counters just because they rely on wearing it down instead of taking it out at once. That is not the requisite for a counter. You also have provided no evidence to validate the statement you made below that.
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I know what your point was, however I'm saying the pokemon you listed as full counters are not full counters if they're not very reliable in taking out greninja. If wear down damage is these mon's main methods of KOing greninja while being pounded by it's potential coverage (again, don't forget chansey can't switch into low kick, pull off a toxic, and live another one softboil stalling.) then that wouldn't be a counter but instead a hard check.
Remember:
-Firstly, if you make a checks or counters argument, the very first thing you need to do, is make sure you have the correct terminology. a Check, is something that cannot exactly switch in safely, but can often win a "1v1", or revenge kill the pokemon in question. A Counter is something that can 100% switch in and hard wall, or force an unfavourable situation for said pokemon.
Chansey, manaphy, alomomola, sableye, every single pokemon on that list cannot 100% switch in or hard wall depending on his set. That would be the definition of a check at best since the potential to carrying a lure or counter set on greninja is very possible as was aegislash's really gimmicky and actually most convincing for ban max speed head smash set for mandibuzz and bisharp everybody started running. (ok I'm done bring up past suspects as I know we're against that) The counters listed can often end up death fodder or dead weight on not just balanced and HO but stall teams as well if the greninja player is carrying the right set, which, you will only figure out the hard way.
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I see a lot of people claiming that because it "wrecks balanced teams" (or wrecks any specific style of team) it should be banned. This doesn't actually hold any water (even assuming that it actually does wreck said style, which is far from decided): we don't try to make the meta game friendly to any other sort of style, such as gravity or trick room, and we outright banned the baton pass play style. While certain play styles are more common, that doesn't mean they deserve any more respect, or else you are just saying that "i don't like it because it beats the teams that i use". If it wrecks essentially ALL styles of team, that could be a ban warrant, but specifically saying that it wrecks one specific style of team is insufficient.
This just isn't true, by styles we mean by Hyper Offense (Which is using brute force to win), Balance (A combination of Hyper Offense and Stall), and Stall (Which is Stalling out the opponent), if something can completly destroy one of these three types of teams and discourages people from using it, then it needs to be banned, which has happened in the past
I don't know why you keep bringing up Full Baton Pass as a playstyle. Full BP teams were a copy and paste team with maybe 1 flexible teammates slot. That's not a playstyle, that's a team with people changing 1 mon so they can say they didn't copy/paste it. Further, it devolved the ladder a paper-rock-scissors games because the required changes needed to handle BP were niche countermeasures that weakened your match-up against standard play style. I think I speak for everyone when I say that you need to stop bringing it up because there is a huge difference between trying to preserve Balance as a playstyle and trying to preserve 1 team that let brain-dead people shoot up the ladder with little to no effort.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
It kills balance and bulky offense but neither semi-stall, stall or hyper offense can beat it reliable if they don't run things like Tentacruel or Fish (which aren't even counters depending on the set). I agree a pokemon should not be banned if it only gives 1 archetype problems, like Mega Heracross against stall, but Greninja actually gives all kind of team problems. Difference is that the answers on HO or Stall teams are more reliable than answers on balance
When people such as myself talk about balanced, we are talking about an archetype. There are three main archetypes in Pokemon, Stall, Balanced, and Hyper Offense. Anything else falls under those archetypes in some form or another. Bulky Offense is a hybrid of HO and balanced. Semi-Stall is a slightly more offensive variant of traditonal stall. Trick Room, ORAS Rain, some Sand teams and full Baton Pass are all just variants of HO that come around a common theme or benefit.
The simplest way to view balanced is a defensive core, supported by wallbreakers/stallbreakers, revenge killers, and fillers as needed. Ideally you also fit hazards and hazard control in the mix, as well as VoltTurn and other strategies as needed. There's a lot of flexibility in there, you can use basically anything you want in some form outside of the extremes of HO and Stall. I've already talked about what balanced is, but I still feel as that some posters really aren't getting what it is, and Greninja's adverse effects on it.
The simplest way to view balanced is a defensive core, supported by wallbreakers/stallbreakers, revenge killers, and fillers as needed. Ideally you also fit hazards and hazard control in the mix, as well as VoltTurn and other strategies as needed. There's a lot of flexibility in there, you can use basically anything you want in some form outside of the extremes of HO and Stall. I've already talked about what balanced is, but I still feel as that some posters really aren't getting what it is, and Greninja's adverse effects on it.
Not to rehash anything that's already that's already been said, I'd like to highlight the desirability of the post-Greninja metagame. From my experience on the suspect ladder, I've found more diversity in teams, with less people obligated to run Empoleon or Rotom-W to (sort of) deal wit Greninja. Part of our goal here is to create a desirable metagame, and I'd appreciate posts highlighting the ways in the post-ninja meta is less over-centralized (or dissenting points of view).
It's worth noting it plays an entirely different game in Ubers. While in OU, it's very powerful attacker with huge coverage, in Ubers, it's way too weak and frail. Instead, Greninja in Ubers is a Spikes lead that can defeat often used Ubers lead - Deoxys formes. If you try to use OU set, you will lose (although, considering how bad players in Ubers are, you can easily reach high places on the ladder with a bad team). Not that Ubers have meaning for OU. Deoxys-N is awful in Ubers, because other Deoxys formes are better, but that doesn't mean Deoxys-N isn't broken in OU (it is).
Anyway, to add something to the discussion. In BW metagame, one of threats was Mixed Attacker Hydreigon. It uses a set with great coverage (Dragon + Fighting coverage was great in BW, and Hydreigon usually also added Fire, Ground, and Dark attacks). It didn't have counters (well, okay, perhaps Chansey at full HP and Porygon2... sounds familiar?), although it had lots of checks. The issue was... it was slow, and 98 base speed made it outspeed by many OU threats.
Now, enter Greninja. It has good mixed offenses (yes, lower than Hydreigon, but with Protean it doesn't matter much), and way better speed of 122, so it would outspeed almost everything. It can easily use Gunk Shot and Ice Beam to cover against many threats. It also had two move slots to pick moves against other threats. Hate Scizor and Ferrothorn? Pick Hidden Power Fire. Hate Mega Venusaur, Keldeo, and Tentacruel? Pick Extrasensory. Hate Rotom-Wash and Manaphy? Get Hidden Power Grass. And so on, you have two moveslots to pick almost everything. When Hydreigon opted for Fire, Ground, and Dark coverage, Greninja has way more options to choose from, which may cause the opponent's check to be defeated, if right coverage was chosen. The opponent doesn't know what coverage was chosen, which makes using checks more dangerous.
I agree that Greninja is frail. But does it matter, when it outspeeds and OHKOes most of Pokemon, and it isn't frail enough to not survive a not-super effective priority hit (by the way, Greninja has Protean, so Mach Punch will be only super effective if Greninja had used Dark Pulse or Ice Beam, similarly with Bullet Punch). Hydreigon could have been easily defeated by outspeeding it with a good attack, but good luck outspeeding Greninja. Not to say that in Pokemon, Pokemons can switch, so seeing your check that somehow Greninja's moveset doesn't deal with, Greninja user can simply switch into appropriate counter for a threat, and continue to defeat your team while the Greninja check was dealt with.
Greninja is what BW Hydreigon would be if it had better speed and better coverage moves. In my opinion, it should be banned.
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Since you clearly weren't around for the Baton Pass suspect and insist on acting as an authority on it, let me break it down for you so you don't sound like an uneducated fool: We, as community, had a choice just like any other suspect test: do nothing, Ban BP + Magic Bounce and Speed Boost, or set it to 3 passers. We did the last one. The last one was not enough; another brain-dead BP team was made that still caused all the same problems, so we set it to one. Try not to make it out like we just arbitrarily set that limit and try actually researching a suspect test before calling me out on it.
Okay, let me go ahead and address those: TRICK ROOM AND GRAVITY TEAMS FALL UNDER THE BASIC ARCHETYPES. They don't need to be addressed because they tend to fall under HO; they use a set-up move and utilize strong wallbreakers and prediction to nail switch-ins with strong offensive moves while softening checks for a finisher. I didn't think I had to explain this to you.
Just to try and tie this in back to Greninja: invalidation of one the basic archetypes of battling is plenty reason to ban something, and I believe that Greninja is doing just that. If you want to continue arguing about BP or some other style, VM or PM me, but keep it out of the thread because arguing whether BP or something is a play style is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
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I'm going to be a weenie and write an essay.
There's a "spectrum" between two extremes, teams that focus on walling everything and teams that focus on crushing everything. In between there's teams that attempt to take hits and dish them out at the same time, sometimes leaning towards one side or another, which has been in an effective strategy in most metas (past gen and lower tiers.) What Greninja does is it makes teams like that borderline unviable, they're forced to use the fatmons that hit like a kitten and bleed momentum, or the fastmons that are generally frail, don't provide any defensive synergy and can only revenge kill.
If you're in the mind that OU would be a desirable meta if it was some kind of duality between really bulky, passive stall and fast hyper offense, then it's understandable why you'd think Greninja isn't a problem. It's really a subjective thing, but a trait of a desirable meta is diversity. I believe, and I know a lot of people also believe, that UU is a really balanced meta. A lot of this has to do with that the fact that they actively try to preserve playstyles (not weird stuff like Trick Room and gravity tho;) there's some talk about that during their suspect of Manaphy, which is here and also on the next page a bit. Most of UU's bans where Pokemon that were threatening to multiple playstyles, like Manaphy who "fucking destroys every non-pure offense style," but in pursuit of preserving all playstyles, some other pokemon were banned because they were an insurmountable challenge for some playstyles, or the answers they had were losing strategies.
I also recall a deleted post, in this thread, that was something along the lines of "it's ridiculous to ban a pokemon for causing a meta shift" in response to my first post. We obviously don't do that. NP Celebi has become more common in response to CM Mega Slowbro, but we wouldn't ban Mega Slowbro. Celebi is a good pokemon, Slowbro doesn't require Celebi to be checked, it's just a harmless meta shift. But when Greninja causes a meta shift as dramatic as invalidating once-effective archetypes like balance and bulky offense, it's not healthy. This is really why I think Greninja should go.
Non-weenie version:
There's a "spectrum" between two extremes, teams that focus on walling everything and teams that focus on crushing everything. In between there's teams that attempt to take hits and dish them out at the same time, sometimes leaning towards one side or another, which has been in an effective strategy in most metas (past gen and lower tiers.) What Greninja does is it makes teams like that borderline unviable, they're forced to use the fatmons that hit like a kitten and bleed momentum, or the fastmons that are generally frail, don't provide any defensive synergy and can only revenge kill.
If you're in the mind that OU would be a desirable meta if it was some kind of duality between really bulky, passive stall and fast hyper offense, then it's understandable why you'd think Greninja isn't a problem. It's really a subjective thing, but a trait of a desirable meta is diversity. I believe, and I know a lot of people also believe, that UU is a really balanced meta. A lot of this has to do with that the fact that they actively try to preserve playstyles (not weird stuff like Trick Room and gravity tho;) there's some talk about that during their suspect of Manaphy, which is here and also on the next page a bit. Most of UU's bans where Pokemon that were threatening to multiple playstyles, like Manaphy who "fucking destroys every non-pure offense style," but in pursuit of preserving all playstyles, some other pokemon were banned because they were an insurmountable challenge for some playstyles, or the answers they had were losing strategies.
I also recall a deleted post, in this thread, that was something along the lines of "it's ridiculous to ban a pokemon for causing a meta shift" in response to my first post. We obviously don't do that. NP Celebi has become more common in response to CM Mega Slowbro, but we wouldn't ban Mega Slowbro. Celebi is a good pokemon, Slowbro doesn't require Celebi to be checked, it's just a harmless meta shift. But when Greninja causes a meta shift as dramatic as invalidating once-effective archetypes like balance and bulky offense, it's not healthy. This is really why I think Greninja should go.
Non-weenie version:
- Greninja is too effective against some archetypes
- Preserving these archetypes is desirable; UU is indicative of this, as are other metas in past gens and lower tiers
- We don't ban stuff for causing meta shifts, unless those shifts are extreme and unhealthy
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Alright, after playing about 20 games on the suspect ladder, I feel like my standpoint on Greninja has changed. While I don't feel that Greninja itself is broken, I feel like the suspect test ladder showcases a greater variety of teams and playstyles. I found that this metagame is more desirable than the previous one and I think it is a step in the right direction. Looking back on previous suspect tests, I think this one is remarkably similar to the Aegislash test in that both suspects weren't/aren't broken (imo), yet have a negative effect on both the metagames that they were/are in. I think the common belief for banning Aegi was not only its performance, but also that it covered up some other suspects. I feel like this case is the same. Removing Greninja would allow us to see a change in the tier and perhaps remove some others, ultimately for the betterment of the tier. So upon further reflection, I have changed my stance on Greninja from No-Ban to Ban, on the grounds that a metagame without Greninja would be a better one.
Thugly Duckling
I play TCG now
I'm no dedicated OU player, but I've played XY OU to understand it and be legitimately concerned about this suspect.
Banning a Pokemon because it causes a metagame shift is such faulty reasoning. If there are ways to check something but you simply don't want to use those Pokemon because they are restricted to certain playstyles, you are either 1) Biased against certain playstyles, or 2) not accepting of a playstyle's weakness to Greninja. Greninja destroys balance, that is understandable, but I didn't see a Heracronite suspect in XY because of how badly it destroys stall. Pokemon don't get banned to preserve playstyles, is my point here.
Examples of viable sets and pokemon in such a scenario? I don't really understand this part of your argument at all. If Pokemon A is your check to Greninja, you should keep it as healthy as possible in order to take on Greninja at any point during the game. Despite that hazard damage is somewhat unavoidable in many cases, taking a small amount of prior damage (define small in your argument please) implies you either made bad switches, or is using Pokemon A to also check another threat; and, you really shouldn't be using blanket checks to handle Greninja because of how much of a threat it is (referring back to bad teambuilding). I really don't see a problem with running dedicated checks either, because many OU pokemon have needed them in the past (think MegaZardX), and running dedicated checks does not interfere with the team archetype one chooses. There is also the argument of simply bringing up lower-tier mons up to OU to check new/buffed Pokemon, and as an example, Quagsire was brought up to check ZardX.
I honestly can't argue much with this point, as it is mostly true. But again, there are a slew of ways to viably check Greninja without opportunity cost. ORAS brought yet another speed creep, and Greninja just isn't as fast as it was in XY. I understand that Greninja outspends nearly the entire unboosted metagame, but if a team needs a scarfed Pokemon/+122 base speed mon/bulky stall mons to check Greninja, so be it. There is also priority and hazards to discourage Greninja, the former which should be on every balance and offensive team, and the latter needing to be on every playstyle, especially stall.
The first part here is true; however, your second point here about switching in Greninja is flawed, as the fact that Greninja can't switch into anything does offset how great it is offensively. A truly banworthy pokemon possesses the ability to perform a variety of roles without opportunity cost between each role, which is something Greninja cannot do. When you see a Greninja you know it's doing one thing, and that's mixed attacking. In comparison to past Gen 6 bans, Greninja does not seem all that bad. Mega Lucario required two dedicated checks, one to its Swords Dance set and the other to its Nasty Plot set, both equally viable. Aegislash could literally run anything for every check it had, an example is SubToxic to foil Mandibuzz. Unlike these two past bans, Greninja actually has consistent checks (such as the aforementioned ScarfMons, 122+ base speed mons, and bulky stall mons). Also, when you say, "...the teams Greninja is seen on don't have a problem sacing stuff and you can just double switch anyway", you imply that a team facing Greninja will ALWAYS be outplayed, and this is clearly not true. There is not a problem with making aggressive plays and facing 50/50s, that is, well, what makes Pokemon the game that it is.
"once you know greninja's moveset"
Ah see, that would be a great point if it weren't for the fact that to figure out its set you have to sack at least 1-3 mons
I'm just voicing my opinion, not voting.
The trouble with Greninja is that it over-centralizes the metagame. Greninja's main hinderance in XY was 4 moveslot syndrome. With the advent of Gunk Shot and Low Kick, that problem is rendered moot; the addition of those two moves counter both the fairies that opposed it as well as Chansey. This forces teams to to run checks and counters that are otherwise unviable, such as the aforementioned Porygon2. Greninja's wondrous speed tier allows it to annihilate non-scarfed offensive threats, hitting like an amphibian truck with its expansive coverage.
In short, Greninja is simply too game-breakingly arduous to counter, causing unhealthy shifts in the tier's balance.
The trouble with Greninja is that it over-centralizes the metagame. Greninja's main hinderance in XY was 4 moveslot syndrome. With the advent of Gunk Shot and Low Kick, that problem is rendered moot; the addition of those two moves counter both the fairies that opposed it as well as Chansey. This forces teams to to run checks and counters that are otherwise unviable, such as the aforementioned Porygon2. Greninja's wondrous speed tier allows it to annihilate non-scarfed offensive threats, hitting like an amphibian truck with its expansive coverage.
In short, Greninja is simply too game-breakingly arduous to counter, causing unhealthy shifts in the tier's balance.
I'll atempt to provide my evidence in these situations.
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 221-265 (31.3 - 37.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 222-263 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 222-263 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Chansey can't switch in.. you bring chansey in, she is losing a huge chunk of her health. She can switch in, toxic, then die or death fodder something else.. that's not a counter, that's just simply crippling something that still kills it/scares it out anyway, and that's just with the "Standard" EVs.
Actually, prior to the oras ladder.. greninja was starting to handle chansey with a spikes set before we got gunk shot. Between spikes and u-turn (I know it sucks but still) he could wear chansey down easily.. not in a 1v1 situation of course but still, greninja adapted to that a long time ago.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 187-222 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 125-148 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 72.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 125-148 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 72.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
SpD Sableye is not a counter either, it's a check as it can't switch into LO hydro pump if already mega, and can't take a second hit while it calm minds. It would have to come in after something dies, which is NOT a counter. It can PP stall though with recover I suppose.
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 86-104 (22.9 - 27.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 138-164 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 99-118 (26.4 - 31.5%) -- 42.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 125-148 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 138-164 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 99-118 (26.4 - 31.5%) -- 42.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 125-148 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Porygon2 looks like it might be a counter, although I don't exactly know what porygon2's viability in OU is though. I know it seen a rise as it checks alot of the new megas but otherwise that one is difficult to debate with.
-1 40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 136-161 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (If no poison)
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 204-242 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (say revenge kill or double switch)
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 204-242 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (say revenge kill or double switch)
Gyarados would be a check as well since only if it gets a free switch into greninja, it can setup on him.. otherwise gyarados can't do too much. Uninvested in speed gyarados doesn't outspeed at +1, and uninvested in bulk those 2HKO's become guarenteed so there isn't really a win on gyarados's end.
Klefki.. well, yeah only thing that's doing it t-waving.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 222-263 (69.8 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki through Light Screen: 111-131 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
And we already know what could happen to manaphy, alomomola and cresselia.
Once again, a counter is something that, copy and paste right from the suspect etiquette thread, is something that can 100% switch in and hard wall, or force an unfavourable situation for said pokemon. Most of the pokemon are still able to fail at stopping greninja from doing what it does. P2 may be a counter to offensive variants, but not hazard laying ones where they become setup fodder.
Thugly Duckling
I play TCG now
Why are you trying to argue alongside pro-ban that Greninja can't be countered? That's already been established and is obvious; Greninja can only be checked, which is not an issue at all. There are some other uncountable pokemon in OU, such as Landorus-I (its coverage makes it so), which is not a broken pokemon at all, so your argument posting calcs and such is somewhat irrelevant. This suspect is coming down to whether we want to preserve playstyles, which I think should not be done, because already have metagame shifts occurred this gen with little to no issues, so there is almost no reasonable explanation to why greninja alone should be banned for causing metagame shifts. I can understand if someone thinks the meta is unhealthy with Greninja in it, but if you are defining "unhealthy" by your favorite playstyle becoming difficult to execute/unviable because of Greninja, you are being uncooperative with metagame trends.
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That is not what I'm doing or believing at all. This is more or less reguarding a post someone made claiming these pokemon to be hard counters, requested evidence to back up my claims that they are checks and only checks, and so there's that. I 100% agree with everything else in your post though.
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