You can use walls. If a player wants to use HO, they risk getting swept and if they want to run stall, they risk getting setup on. Just the nature of these things.
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np: ORAS UU Stage 3.2 - Game of Pricks [Pidgeotite voted BL] - See Post #257
- Thread starter Sam
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So basically unless I run balance with dedicated answers, I'm going to lose to it. Sounds like a balanced mon indeed.
I prefer balance teams so I don't run into these problems. if you run a team that can be easily swept when you have options to deal with it, crying for a ban isn't the way to go. A good player will figure something out.
Im not saying Mega Pidgeot isn't strong but it doesn't do anything no other pokemon wont do in the same situation.
Ok, I'm just going to ask this so hopefully you can give me an answer and I can make sure I understand what you're saying, but is your point that everybody should run balance with hard answers like Empoleon so they don't lose to this threat? Coz that is wrong in so many ways I don't even know where to begin...
Also where did this train that it sweeps offense come from? Sure offense probably doesn't have any switchins but that's the nature of running offense, I bet there's about 20 other threats you can't switch into but you can offensively check.
Also where did this train that it sweeps offense come from? Sure offense probably doesn't have any switchins but that's the nature of running offense, I bet there's about 20 other threats you can't switch into but you can offensively check.
Except No Guard Hurricane from 121 Speed IS something no other Pokemon can do. Machamp may have guaranteed Confusion, but it also has a main STAB with an immunity and much better resists in general. It also has a fuckload of Pokemon that are faster that outspeed and threaten it out.
EDIT: Beedrill has worse speed starting out, Pidgeot at least has 101 to get it out the gate. For comparison, 99% of all Beedrills run Protect because it has so much trouble Mega Evolving safely (I'm testing a 4 attacks set, sometimes I get it, sometimes Beedrill just doesn't get used in a game). Pidgeot doesn't have that drawback. Pidgeot can Mega Evolve against motherfucking Salamence. One playstyle that ONLY gives Pidgeot trouble (again, Pidgeot doesn't auto-lose against balance/bulky offense like you're implying) doesn't make Pidgeot not-broken.
EDIT: Beedrill has worse speed starting out, Pidgeot at least has 101 to get it out the gate. For comparison, 99% of all Beedrills run Protect because it has so much trouble Mega Evolving safely (I'm testing a 4 attacks set, sometimes I get it, sometimes Beedrill just doesn't get used in a game). Pidgeot doesn't have that drawback. Pidgeot can Mega Evolve against motherfucking Salamence. One playstyle that ONLY gives Pidgeot trouble (again, Pidgeot doesn't auto-lose against balance/bulky offense like you're implying) doesn't make Pidgeot not-broken.
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Pidgeot still has to mega to gain that 121 speed. There are also a lot of mega that have a lot of tools Pidgeot doesn't. Beedrill has a powerful u-turn with base 140 speed. Each Pokemon has a role they play. There are also pokemon faster than pidgeot that can use its no guard against it.
So what if pidge needs to mega-evolve to get speed, your not going to bring it in against super-fast threats. Also, beedrill might have a 140 base speed U-Turn, but Pidgeot has a 110 base power STAB it can spam with absolutely no drawbacks. Finally, the only faster pokemon that can abuse Pidgeots no guard is really just Aerodactyl, nothing else.
Just because your fat balance team deals with it doesn't mean that it isn't broken. Your point literally boils down into everyone should run this play style or be inferior which is about as far away from a desirable metagame as I can imagine. If Mega Pidgeot is making everything but this kind of balance unviable(I don't think is true but this is your logic) then it is without a doubt overcentralising and broken. Comparing it to other mons doesn't make it any less broken, for example your comparison to Beedrill on Speed alone is kind of pointless because Beedrill has a great many resists within the tier and while obviously a huge threat, every playstyle can deal with it and sufficiently fit answers to it.
The one point I agreed with out of all your posts is that each playstyle will have threats in pokemon that perform well vs those specific play styles. For example SubCM Chandelure will always be a threat to stall as it negates most of their ways of damaging it and can gain the power needed to overwhelm it. That said, no pokemon is quite like Pidgeot in its potential to threaten almost every playstyle(Im still of the opinion that it doesn't match up that well vs offense) and its ability to force its way past its counters.
The one point I agreed with out of all your posts is that each playstyle will have threats in pokemon that perform well vs those specific play styles. For example SubCM Chandelure will always be a threat to stall as it negates most of their ways of damaging it and can gain the power needed to overwhelm it. That said, no pokemon is quite like Pidgeot in its potential to threaten almost every playstyle(Im still of the opinion that it doesn't match up that well vs offense) and its ability to force its way past its counters.
Im just saying its not a free as people think it is. You need to work on a sweep with it and take down its threats. This is nothing new in Pokemon.
The thing with HO is that you don't NEED a to run an empoleon just for pidgeot. Pidgeot is not switching into anything on HO and HO can most certainly force pidgeot out as well. It was very similar to Tini vses HO, victini really could not find its way in at all vses HO with its rock weaknesses and not good enough bulk. The same goes with pidgeot. However, Since it is obviously a lot quicker you might find it a bit harder to force out, but between the scarfers HO can run, mamo's ice shard, espeed, and mons the bird can't one shot, HO can handle it and I don't thinking forcing an empoleon on HO is neccessary.
How does t force it way past it counters though? Even if pidgeot confuses its target, there is a good chance it wont stay in on it if it cant get the kill but most teams are equipped to deal with it, unless its checks go down. Pidgeot like chess, even more so when its on the winning side.
As unfortunate as it sounds, I don't use Mega Pidgeot at all in UU; but my experience with a load of matches on the ladder and/or tournament play can help me give an opinion or two with regards to it.
After a few matches on the suspect ladder, I feel like the difference of the metagame without Mega Pidgeot is somehow minimal compared to the metagame with it; granted, what AM said regarding the team building is not as restrictive as before. Hell, my team I use on the ladder right now doesn't have an outright resist to Flying, but I really did consider putting a Pokemon or two that would serve as blanket checks for the top threats in the UU metagame.
I may be indifferent whether or not Pidgeotite will be banned after this suspect testing, but I'm thinking this is one Pokemon that needs to be prepared for. Are people just being fed up on building a team with an outright Flying resist or some blanket check to Mega Pidgeot and hastily generalize that it is centralizing to the tier?
I can see the reason why people are clamoring for a Pidgeotite suspect; once Mega Pidgeot comes in, the bearer's momentum will always be in his/her favor. First and foremost, the (sometimes, game-changing) confusion hax brought by No Guard-boosted Hurricane would definitely break the opponent's momentum, likely immobilizing the opponent and start racking some damage. Second is, whenever Mega Pidgeot faces a Pokemon that would threaten it (such as Mega Ampharos, Rotom-Heat, among others), its Base 121 Speed would help it U-turn away and switch to its respective checks/counters.
I would understand the clamor of those people who were devastated by the wrath of Mega Pidgeot that people would tend to build an outright Flying resist so as to deal with Mega Pidgeot very well. For me, however, I emphasize that aside from those outright Flying resists, there are a lot of ways to take care of Mega Pidgeot: through priority moves (from the likes of Mamoswine's Ice Shards among others) and sheer bulk without caring about resistances (Porygon2 and Assault Vest Meloetta are some of those that you would take into consideration). Sometimes, they say that Mega Pidgeot would win against those because of confusion hax brought by Hurricane in the most crucial moments; that essence of confusion is not enough to warrant a ban because, as game-changing as it would be, that element of luck is already a different, albeit relevant, story and I don't want to delve too much into it.
My conclusive opinion would be not leaning towards banning Pidgeotite, but I want to see others' arguments that I might be persuaded otherwise.
After a few matches on the suspect ladder, I feel like the difference of the metagame without Mega Pidgeot is somehow minimal compared to the metagame with it; granted, what AM said regarding the team building is not as restrictive as before. Hell, my team I use on the ladder right now doesn't have an outright resist to Flying, but I really did consider putting a Pokemon or two that would serve as blanket checks for the top threats in the UU metagame.
I may be indifferent whether or not Pidgeotite will be banned after this suspect testing, but I'm thinking this is one Pokemon that needs to be prepared for. Are people just being fed up on building a team with an outright Flying resist or some blanket check to Mega Pidgeot and hastily generalize that it is centralizing to the tier?
I can see the reason why people are clamoring for a Pidgeotite suspect; once Mega Pidgeot comes in, the bearer's momentum will always be in his/her favor. First and foremost, the (sometimes, game-changing) confusion hax brought by No Guard-boosted Hurricane would definitely break the opponent's momentum, likely immobilizing the opponent and start racking some damage. Second is, whenever Mega Pidgeot faces a Pokemon that would threaten it (such as Mega Ampharos, Rotom-Heat, among others), its Base 121 Speed would help it U-turn away and switch to its respective checks/counters.
I would understand the clamor of those people who were devastated by the wrath of Mega Pidgeot that people would tend to build an outright Flying resist so as to deal with Mega Pidgeot very well. For me, however, I emphasize that aside from those outright Flying resists, there are a lot of ways to take care of Mega Pidgeot: through priority moves (from the likes of Mamoswine's Ice Shards among others) and sheer bulk without caring about resistances (Porygon2 and Assault Vest Meloetta are some of those that you would take into consideration). Sometimes, they say that Mega Pidgeot would win against those because of confusion hax brought by Hurricane in the most crucial moments; that essence of confusion is not enough to warrant a ban because, as game-changing as it would be, that element of luck is already a different, albeit relevant, story and I don't want to delve too much into it.
My conclusive opinion would be not leaning towards banning Pidgeotite, but I want to see others' arguments that I might be persuaded otherwise.
That's literally the deal with every top tier mon...If you don't have a suicuine answer, sorry you're losing to it. It you don't have a mence check, sorry you lose. Sure there's room to outplay but you can outplay Pidgeot with similar methods of double switching, pressuring with rocks etc. Having to prepare for a top threat doesn't equate to brokenness.
So I have abused Pidgeot more than anyone during ORAS and for a good reason. Pidgeot's counters are non-existent.The best bet at getting by a Pidgeot is with Pursuit Aerodactyl, which can still get confused, and hit it self. Other than having a Pursuit Aerodactyl, your team is inherently going to struggle with Pidgeot. Empoleon is a pokemon that people say is THE COUNTER. Empoleon can sure take a Hurricane nicely, and would usually force a pidgeot to switch out. The thing is, Pidgeot can hax your counter down all it wants since it outspeeds. Here are 3 test games R0ady and I had to see if Pidgeot can beat an Empoleon after it switched in at 100%. PS: this is Ice Beam Empoleon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-240892206 (Pidgeot haxes down Empoleon to 20%)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-240892693 (Empoleon gets confused, but handles Pidgeot nicely at 60%)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-240893092 (Pidgeot beats Empoleon)
Here is an example i had recently with a contestent for Hogg's iron chef challenge. I had A mega Ampharos(Watch from Turn 10)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-245157818
Those were some replays showing supposed counters to Pidgeot getting haxed down. I want to reiterate that I have used Pidgeot A LOT, since the start of ORAS. These incidences are not uncommon in the slightest(Literally happens all the time). For those of you that do not think Pidgeot is unbalanced and not over-centralizing, look at the teambuilder, I can count the "counters" on one hand.
Edit: I have gotten reqs already, and the tier is 100% more playable without Pidgeot in it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-240892206 (Pidgeot haxes down Empoleon to 20%)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-240892693 (Empoleon gets confused, but handles Pidgeot nicely at 60%)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-240893092 (Pidgeot beats Empoleon)
Here is an example i had recently with a contestent for Hogg's iron chef challenge. I had A mega Ampharos(Watch from Turn 10)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-245157818
Those were some replays showing supposed counters to Pidgeot getting haxed down. I want to reiterate that I have used Pidgeot A LOT, since the start of ORAS. These incidences are not uncommon in the slightest(Literally happens all the time). For those of you that do not think Pidgeot is unbalanced and not over-centralizing, look at the teambuilder, I can count the "counters" on one hand.
Edit: I have gotten reqs already, and the tier is 100% more playable without Pidgeot in it.
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What's that replay supposed to show?
Absurdly passive stall losing to a setup sweeper that destroys absurdly passive stall. He had no real way of threatening any setup sweeper and he couldn't touch anything that didn't mind getting statused. Literally any decent sweeper opens holes against that team effortlessly, and things like Reuniclus and Refresh Pidgeot are basically auto-wins because the team cannot kill them off.
Posting cherry-picked replays to prove a point is pointless.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ubers-40925
"Toxicroak is broken because it effortlessly beat this guy. Didn't even need to use half of my team to setup my win condition"
Well yeah, every single fast hitter threatens HO. That's how that playstyle works.
Using fast sweepers to threaten it (faster than 101 base speed. As Fast as Mega Pidgeot is, it isn't unreasonably fast pre-evolving, which allows HO to scare it away), priority users (including setup sweepers with priority moves, such as Lucario), and relatively bulky Pokemon capable of tanking at least one Hurricane is how HO deals with Pidgeot. Additionally, keeping SR, which isn't difficult for HO if you know how to pressure your opponent, makes Pidgeot significantly less threatening.
I love using HO on the ladder, and that's how I got reqs for the last two votes. Pidgeot has only been a massive problem when it gets that 30%.
In my opinion, if Pidgeot is broken (I'm still neutral) is because of that 30% chance. I talked a bit about this in the UU council PM:
"blah blah work up beats some of those counters/ checks" loses some, gains some.
He said both offense and stall auto got swept by it and proceeded to say it wasn't broken. That post was more to expose the shit logic in his argument than my actual thoughts.
I have played with Mega Pidgeot for the last couple months (really, I think all of my recents teams had Mega Pidgeot in there, I got totally lost when suspect ladder came out lol), with what I think were every set this bird had. I like to play any style that is not called stall, but I really enjoy Balance buildings, and I also fuckin love mono Flying coverage, so ever since I started playing with Mega Pidgeot I dropped Heat Wave for any other move. I realized I really don't need that fire coverage if I could let my team mates deal with opposing Mega Pidgeot checks. So I got to imo the most consistent set Mega Pidgeot could have:
Pidgeot-Mega @ Pidgeotite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Roost
- Work Up/Defog/Protect
This set put imense pressure against balance builds. Hurricane/U-turn/Roost are mandatory. Even with hax chances, as a good player that I crave to be, I realized it was dumb to rely in 30% chances, and then 50/50 to break my suppose checks, so U-turn were necessary to lure in my checks for something else. Roost is also needed for recovery, since I really wants to keep healthy enough to pack some priorities like Mamo's Ice Shard or Entei/Lucario Espeed, which doesn't kill me if at full health. The 4th slot can be customized for my team needs. I really enjoy U-turn/Work Up actually, since it lets Bird Jesus to act as an offensive pivot and late game sweeper. I could Defog in obviously switchs, but usually I found more interesting to spam Hurricane or keep my momentum. Protect is actually a nice anti lead move and have a good matchup against offense, choiced mons and Mienshao. I remember once when I stopped a Hitmonlee from sweeping me after blockin' his Fake Out and Normal Gem use. Cool move.
So, even with Heat Wave there were much things, like Mega Aggron and Empoleon, that wasn't close to 3HKO it, and most Forrys get 2HKO by Hurricane anyway so, yea, I'd say that if you want to use Mega Pidgeot at his finest, do not use Heat Wave.
First, I thought about every "consistent" checks Jesus had in this tier, essentially anything that could take at least three hits to be KOed, or that could beat me one on one, if I don't Work Up. That was important because I really didn't want to Work Up early or mid game that much, specially if my counters were healthy and still around. So, the checks were, shaky or not: Mega-Aerodactyl, Blissey, Snorlax, Mega Ampharos, Rotom-H, Porygon2, Cresselia, Empoleon, Florges, Mega-Aggron, SpDef Bronzong, Magneton, Rhyperior, SpDef Vaporeon, SpDef Umbreon, SpDef Forretress, Mandibuzz, Doublade, AV Reuniclus, AV Goodra, Tyrantrum and I think that was it. About ~20 mons that could somewhat "check" Mega Pidgeot. One could say "oh so there were plenty of choices to be used against Pidgeot!" but almost every check Mega Pidgeot have are Steel, fat Normal, fat Dark or fat Psychic type mon. I came to the conclusion that any fighting type gives M-Pidgeot check's troubles, expect maybe Mega Aerodactyl if you are not a scarf user.
From then, I just had to build around it. A few weeks ago I got by my first time in #3 with a Mega Pidgeot team consisting of M-Pidgeot/Entei/Heracross/Salamence/Cresselia/Empoleon (I should RMT it any time soon lol). From my experiences, I realized M-Pidgeot has a poor matchup against offense, really. This playstyle has no trouble whatsoever to deal with M-Pidgeot, since M-Pidgeot fails to OHKO any decent mon unless grass/bug type, and doesn't have bulk enough to survive commom STABs. Stall also have no trouble at all dealing with M-Pidgeot unless Work Up/Refresh, and even then I'm not so sure it gives stall troubles (T-Wave Blissey has a much higher chance to win I guess). So yeah, if you are playing balance with Mega Pidgeot you need partners to take care of those playstyles, bc Mega Pidgey ain't doing too much. But, again, I guess this is also part of any teambuild process lol.
Although I was carrying a hard and a soft check for M-Pidgeot in my team with a Empoleon/Cresselia core, I didn't use those two because of Almighty Bird Jesus. Cresselia had a great matchup against offense, spreading twave like a goddess and Empoleon gives me much needed utility in hazard control, while phazing (most) attempts to setup and sweep me. Those two just happened to also works great against opposing M-Pidgeys.
Right now I'm just sharing my personal experiences with and against M-Pidgeot over ladder with you guys. I can see why it could be a broken because 15% or 50% of the time it breaks thru suppose checks, but I can't say it overcentralize the meta. For me, that simply untrue, since all M-Pidgeot answers are usable, effective at their roles and can give their teams support outside M-Pidgeot, while no play style gets torn apart with it around. That's essentially different from Serperior or Victini suspects, since both could gives much more trouble to balance and stall buildings than M-Pidgeot could ever done.
I still don't know if Mega-Pidgeot are ban material or not, and I aim to find this out with this suspect, but I hope this post contribute to the discussion after so many bad posts were made, that really doesn't contribute to this thread at all.
Pidgeot-Mega @ Pidgeotite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Roost
- Work Up/Defog/Protect
This set put imense pressure against balance builds. Hurricane/U-turn/Roost are mandatory. Even with hax chances, as a good player that I crave to be, I realized it was dumb to rely in 30% chances, and then 50/50 to break my suppose checks, so U-turn were necessary to lure in my checks for something else. Roost is also needed for recovery, since I really wants to keep healthy enough to pack some priorities like Mamo's Ice Shard or Entei/Lucario Espeed, which doesn't kill me if at full health. The 4th slot can be customized for my team needs. I really enjoy U-turn/Work Up actually, since it lets Bird Jesus to act as an offensive pivot and late game sweeper. I could Defog in obviously switchs, but usually I found more interesting to spam Hurricane or keep my momentum. Protect is actually a nice anti lead move and have a good matchup against offense, choiced mons and Mienshao. I remember once when I stopped a Hitmonlee from sweeping me after blockin' his Fake Out and Normal Gem use. Cool move.
So, even with Heat Wave there were much things, like Mega Aggron and Empoleon, that wasn't close to 3HKO it, and most Forrys get 2HKO by Hurricane anyway so, yea, I'd say that if you want to use Mega Pidgeot at his finest, do not use Heat Wave.
First, I thought about every "consistent" checks Jesus had in this tier, essentially anything that could take at least three hits to be KOed, or that could beat me one on one, if I don't Work Up. That was important because I really didn't want to Work Up early or mid game that much, specially if my counters were healthy and still around. So, the checks were, shaky or not: Mega-Aerodactyl, Blissey, Snorlax, Mega Ampharos, Rotom-H, Porygon2, Cresselia, Empoleon, Florges, Mega-Aggron, SpDef Bronzong, Magneton, Rhyperior, SpDef Vaporeon, SpDef Umbreon, SpDef Forretress, Mandibuzz, Doublade, AV Reuniclus, AV Goodra, Tyrantrum and I think that was it. About ~20 mons that could somewhat "check" Mega Pidgeot. One could say "oh so there were plenty of choices to be used against Pidgeot!" but almost every check Mega Pidgeot have are Steel, fat Normal, fat Dark or fat Psychic type mon. I came to the conclusion that any fighting type gives M-Pidgeot check's troubles, expect maybe Mega Aerodactyl if you are not a scarf user.
From then, I just had to build around it. A few weeks ago I got by my first time in #3 with a Mega Pidgeot team consisting of M-Pidgeot/Entei/Heracross/Salamence/Cresselia/Empoleon (I should RMT it any time soon lol). From my experiences, I realized M-Pidgeot has a poor matchup against offense, really. This playstyle has no trouble whatsoever to deal with M-Pidgeot, since M-Pidgeot fails to OHKO any decent mon unless grass/bug type, and doesn't have bulk enough to survive commom STABs. Stall also have no trouble at all dealing with M-Pidgeot unless Work Up/Refresh, and even then I'm not so sure it gives stall troubles (T-Wave Blissey has a much higher chance to win I guess). So yeah, if you are playing balance with Mega Pidgeot you need partners to take care of those playstyles, bc Mega Pidgey ain't doing too much. But, again, I guess this is also part of any teambuild process lol.
Although I was carrying a hard and a soft check for M-Pidgeot in my team with a Empoleon/Cresselia core, I didn't use those two because of Almighty Bird Jesus. Cresselia had a great matchup against offense, spreading twave like a goddess and Empoleon gives me much needed utility in hazard control, while phazing (most) attempts to setup and sweep me. Those two just happened to also works great against opposing M-Pidgeys.
Right now I'm just sharing my personal experiences with and against M-Pidgeot over ladder with you guys. I can see why it could be a broken because 15% or 50% of the time it breaks thru suppose checks, but I can't say it overcentralize the meta. For me, that simply untrue, since all M-Pidgeot answers are usable, effective at their roles and can give their teams support outside M-Pidgeot, while no play style gets torn apart with it around. That's essentially different from Serperior or Victini suspects, since both could gives much more trouble to balance and stall buildings than M-Pidgeot could ever done.
I still don't know if Mega-Pidgeot are ban material or not, and I aim to find this out with this suspect, but I hope this post contribute to the discussion after so many bad posts were made, that really doesn't contribute to this thread at all.
Yeah I'm not really sure about podge, don't think it's broken but every time I get haxxed/hax someone to a win I wish it wasn't here. It's mainly a case of determining whether the potential hax is likely enough to really consider its overcoming of counters consistent enough to be banworthy.
And on that I'm not sure I can be bothered to get reqs because I don't feel strongly in any way about the bird. The differences between the meta with and without it are minor and either way I'm not a big fan of them.
And on that I'm not sure I can be bothered to get reqs because I don't feel strongly in any way about the bird. The differences between the meta with and without it are minor and either way I'm not a big fan of them.
Mega Pidgeot has been one of the two reasons I use Mega Ampharos for a while. (The other is M-Aerodactyl.) It makes sense for it to have a suspect, but it does have a list of counters and checks, here are the ones off the top of my head:
Mega Amph
Mega Aerodactyl (or Normal Aerodactyl)
Empoleon
Rotom-H
Scarf Tyrantrum (it can actually handle it without scarf)
Porygon2
Umbreon
Blissey
Florges
And that's just off the top of my head. Not to mention, it's typing is meh defensively. It gets 2HKOed by Mamo's Ice Shard, and it's defenses are decent, but not too good. It also is fairly predictable: Hurricane, Heat Wave, U-Turn, Roost, Defog, and Work Up are most of the viable options it gets. Oh and....
Mega Pidgeot in my opinion is not overcentralizing, and can be checked reliably. It does, however, have the ability to hax it's opponents. But that can be easily remedied, and confusion does go away. I am leaning towards no ban.
Mega Amph
Mega Aerodactyl (or Normal Aerodactyl)
Empoleon
Rotom-H
Scarf Tyrantrum (it can actually handle it without scarf)
Porygon2
Umbreon
Blissey
Florges
And that's just off the top of my head. Not to mention, it's typing is meh defensively. It gets 2HKOed by Mamo's Ice Shard, and it's defenses are decent, but not too good. It also is fairly predictable: Hurricane, Heat Wave, U-Turn, Roost, Defog, and Work Up are most of the viable options it gets. Oh and....
Mega Pidgeot in my opinion is not overcentralizing, and can be checked reliably. It does, however, have the ability to hax it's opponents. But that can be easily remedied, and confusion does go away. I am leaning towards no ban.
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Here's my two cents on the whole thing.
Part of me wants to vote ban because the Bird is a balance breaker and I love me some balance, but I often find myself questioning just how unhealthy it really is for the metagame. Yes, it has a small pool of checks. Yes, that does limit teambuilding. And yes, Mega Pidgeot can break its counters with confuse hax. It irritates me to no end when it happens to me, but there's a very small chance of it actually being accomplished.
Pidgeot's counters/checks are different from those of the last few suspects, Serperior and Victini. For both of the previous suspects, players had to rely on an even smaller pool of (sometimes unviable) 'mons to check the suspect, and even then it still wasn't a done deal because of those monsters' movepools, unpredictability, or (in Serperior's case) the possibility of sweeping. On the other hand, many of Pidgeot's checks are actually completely viable, and a lot of them are things that you might be inclined to use on balance and offense anyway because they do other things besides just check Pidgeot (eg. Empoleon provides hazards, Snorlax can sweep, Mega Ampharos is a stellar check to Bulky Waters).
Though I feel that Pidgeot is a dangerous threat at best and a really annoying 'mon that relies on hax at worst, I'm not sure if it's really as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Playing a ladder without it has not been too different for me; You still have to bring checks to Flying-types and strong Special Attackers, so a lot of the things that beat Pidgeot are still effective in this metagame.
Tldr, I'm really on the fence here and really don't know what side to pick in this suspect. I'm waiting for better arguments, guys. Don't let me down!
Part of me wants to vote ban because the Bird is a balance breaker and I love me some balance, but I often find myself questioning just how unhealthy it really is for the metagame. Yes, it has a small pool of checks. Yes, that does limit teambuilding. And yes, Mega Pidgeot can break its counters with confuse hax. It irritates me to no end when it happens to me, but there's a very small chance of it actually being accomplished.
Pidgeot's counters/checks are different from those of the last few suspects, Serperior and Victini. For both of the previous suspects, players had to rely on an even smaller pool of (sometimes unviable) 'mons to check the suspect, and even then it still wasn't a done deal because of those monsters' movepools, unpredictability, or (in Serperior's case) the possibility of sweeping. On the other hand, many of Pidgeot's checks are actually completely viable, and a lot of them are things that you might be inclined to use on balance and offense anyway because they do other things besides just check Pidgeot (eg. Empoleon provides hazards, Snorlax can sweep, Mega Ampharos is a stellar check to Bulky Waters).
Though I feel that Pidgeot is a dangerous threat at best and a really annoying 'mon that relies on hax at worst, I'm not sure if it's really as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Playing a ladder without it has not been too different for me; You still have to bring checks to Flying-types and strong Special Attackers, so a lot of the things that beat Pidgeot are still effective in this metagame.
Tldr, I'm really on the fence here and really don't know what side to pick in this suspect. I'm waiting for better arguments, guys. Don't let me down!
Mega Pidgeot has been one of the two reasons I use Mega Ampharos for a while. (The other is M-Aerodactyl.) It makes sense for it to have a suspect, but it does have a list of counters and checks, here are the ones off the top of my head:
Mega Amph
Mega Aerodactyl (or Normal Aerodactyl)
Empoleon
Rotom-H
Scarf Tyrantrum (it can actually handle it without scarf)
Porygon2
Umbreon
Blissey
Florges
And that's just off the top of my head. Not to mention, it's typing is terrible defensively. It gets 2HKOed by Mamo's Ice Shard, and it's defenses are decent, but not too good. It also is fairly predictable: Hurricane, Heat Wave, U-Turn, Roost, Defog, and Work Up are most of the viable options it gets. Oh and....
Mega Pidgeot in my opinion is not overcentralizing, and can be checked reliably. It does, however, have the ability to hax it's opponents. But that can be easily remedied, and confusion does go away. I am leaning towards no ban.
Of your supposed checks, only about 3/4 are actually reliable, considering that Scarf Tyrantrum takes over half from Hurricane and isn't actually a very good set at all considering people would rather run CB or Rock Polish, and if you don't run Scarf you're 2HKO'd by Hurricane. Umbreon is okay but kinda gets boned by Work Up considering if ev'd correctly Pidgeot isn't even 2HKO'd by Foul Play at +1 +1, all the while Umbreon takes 42-49% from +1 hurricane and has to dodge confusion while all it can do is sit there and wishtect off the damage, which is just asking to get confused and fucked over. Blissey loses to Work Up refresh, and that's all there is to it. Bold Florges (the set that everyone should be running) is 2HKO'd by Hurricane if it switches into Work Up and does less than half with Moonblast, meaning it loses. Normal Aerodactyl isn't viable unless it's just a suicide lead so that doesn't really count, and amph/aero/empoleon/p2 are great checks. Rotom-H is easily worn down by rocks and takes 25% from hurricane even if it's max HP, but it's good enough.
Its typing isn't terrible, considering it has an immunity to Chandelure's Shadow Ball, an immunity to ground, a resist to Bug (megahorn), and a resist to grass which allows it to check the plethora of grass-types in UU. Having a weakness to rock/electric/ice isn't bad since there are only a few viable Ice-types in UU, only a few Electric-types, and only a few Rock-types. It does mean that Pidgeot is weak to Stone Edge, but being weak to Rock isn't the worst thing in the world. Just ask Crobat. Oh, and Stealth Rock is never a viable reason to not ban a pokemon. UU is the easiest tier to remove hazards because we have shit like Mega Blastoise and Forretress and Crobat, so there's no reason that SR would hold Mega Pidgeot back. Being weak to SR didn't stop Volcarona from being banned, and it shouldn't be a reason for Pidgeot not to be banned.
Just a side note but normal aero is actually pretty cool. I've used it on a couple different occasions. Once, I used a LO Taunt Roost set. This is obviously better suited to its mega counterpart but I wanted Ampharos for that team. The other time I used it was last night when I made a team with Scarf Aero s/O King UU and it was surprisingly effective. I often found a team where something like Scarf Shao was the only way to deal with Aero after their bulky water was sufficiently weakened. So pair it with some bulky water lure like liechi ngift entei and you can clean house with Scarf edge. Sorry that was a tangent and norm aero isnt very good but at least it's fun to use!
My comments are in the ReplyMega Pidgeot has been one of the two reasons I use Mega Ampharos for a while. (The other is M-Aerodactyl.) It makes sense for it to have a suspect, but it does have a list of counters and checks, here are the ones off the top of my head:
Mega Amph (Is restricted to the rest Talk set, as any other set gets widdled far to quickly. After Stealth Rock and two switch ins to a Pidgeot, Ampharos is pretty much dead)
Mega Aerodactyl (or Normal Aerodactyl)
Empoleon(Can take a Hurricane or two but again, it gets widdled and cannot OHKO Pidgeot either.)
Rotom-H(Stealth Rock+Hurricane and you pretty much are not switching in anymore)
Scarf Tyrantrum (it can actually handle it without scarf)(252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 141-167 (46 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO ???????????? COUNTERED!!!!!)
Porygon2(Its P2, of course it can switch in. This is a solid switch in, although after Stealth Rock, one confusion and hitting itself its pretty much over)
Umbreon(Work Up)
Blissey(Really passive and can be beaten by the Work Up set. You need T-Wave+ Para luck to win)
Florges(Far from a counter, takes 40% from hurricane and after Stealth Rock you're fucked.
And that's just off the top of my head. Not to mention, it's typing is terrible defensively. It gets 2HKOed by Mamo's Ice Shard, and it's defenses are decent, but not too good. It also is fairly predictable: Hurricane, Heat Wave, U-Turn, Roost, Defog, and Work Up are most of the viable options it gets. Oh and....
Mega Pidgeot in my opinion is not overcentralizing, and can be checked reliably. It does, however, have the ability to hax it's opponents. But that can be easily remedied(Sorry, but this makes literally 0 sense. How is it easily remedied??), and confusion does go away. I am leaning towards no ban.
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Hate to detract from the suspect test, but I actually think it does have some minor niche viability as the fastest SR/taunter in the tier (bar prankster)
I'm currently at about 2100 COIL thus far and I must say I've been on the fence throughout the whole test. Granted, it's not been that long anyhow so judging the metagame at the moment would probably seem more of a preliminary stage where people are still figuring out how some things fare without Pidgeotite being a factor. However, I've not noticed any big changes to the metagame tbh. The biggest I've seen is the relief while teambuilding. I've only played bulky and hyper offense though, what I can say for hyper offense is that it's a bit of a relief as Mega Aerodactyl doesn't seem to be as a necessity before, considering it's probably offenses best switch-in for Mega Pidgeot, bulky offense also appreciates relief as there isn't as big of a need to have a dedicated specially bulky Flying resist. Although one thing I can say for sure is that the things being used to check Pidgeot back then are still being used now and are still good. For instance, I haven't seen Empoleon have a significant drop in usage, and Mega Aerodactyl is still roaming around, if anything I just don't see Mega Ampharos as much but even then Mega Ampharos wasn't exactly common. While those things were probably used a lot due to Mega Pidgeot being in the tier, now it probably just paved way for their rise in popularity. I'm mostly interested on how the removal of Pidgeotite affects stall and balanced, as those playstyles are the ones that had the most trouble against Mega Pidgeot from what I've seen / heard.
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