np: ORAS UU Stage 3.2 - Game of Pricks [Pidgeotite voted BL] - See Post #257

[Ragnarock]

Got reqs, ladder is aids as usual.

Mega Pidgeot is a fantastic pokemon in UU with its great Speed, has sets able to beat offense and fat teams, and ability to fire off never-missing Hurricanes with a chance to confuse its checks. It has a limited movepool however, with Hurricane and Heat Wave being it's best attacking moves, it can provide momentum with U-Turn, as well as run it's well-known mono-atking stall-breaking set (Hurricane/Refresh/Work Up/Roost). The tier seemed to flow nicely without the Mega Bird. I have played UU with Pidgeot in it and no doubt in my mind it is a treat in UU.

I enjoy the playing the UU meta without the bird as I feel more things like fighting types and grass types play more rolls than ever to help out vs shit like Snorlax, Suicune, Feraligatr, etc. More fatter teams are applied with a safe reason of no Work Up Pidgeot. Slow mons on offense needing a quick boost to sweep (NP Lucario, Rain Dance Mega Pert, Tailwind Whims + CB Tyrantrum, etc.) are dominating more of the meta. Mega Beedrill is very nice to use as well with pidgeot gone. The meta looks a bit simliar without the bird, just more useage on mons that are weak to bird, which is expected during suspect testing.

After reading through the thread, I think the main reason why people want this banned is just because of it's ability to not miss hurricanes and playing w/ the 30% confusion hax. I'm not one to talk about banning moves as that is not part of the discussion however it kind of feels like it is only about Hurricane that's making Pidgeot "broken." If not, mons like M-Aero, Empoleon, Snorlax, Rotom-Heat, or w/e can just come in safely and either heal up or fire off their own attacks without worry. It has the same place as Scald, only a "broken" move because of the status effect that can change the outcome of the game quickly with a 30% chance. Example from our well-known god-father Omfuga:

Hide

[7:00:03 PM] Zamrock: give me a reason why I should ban pidgeot from UU
[7:00:09 PM] Omfuga: ,
[7:00:18 PM] Omfuga: confusion is gay
[7:00:19 PM] Omfuga: 3ez
[7:00:49 PM] Zamrock: sigh
[7:00:52 PM] Zamrock: anything else?
[7:01:31 PM] Omfuga: nah bro
[7:01:34 PM] Omfuga: I try and check this shit with p2
[7:01:35 PM] Omfuga: and then
[7:01:38 PM] Omfuga: it fuckin makes me hit myself
[7:01:40 PM] Omfuga: 3 times in a row
[7:02:16 PM] Zamrock: lol
[7:02:21 PM] Zamrock: so if it
[7:02:27 PM] Zamrock: didn't have hurricane
[7:02:31 PM] Zamrock: it wouldn't be broken in UU
[7:02:32 PM] Zamrock: yn
[7:05:00 PM] Omfuga: y

Obviously not my strongest example, yet it feels like we might as well place the #BanHurricane within the #BanScald conversation. Some people are more pro-ban because of the belief that 100% accurate hurricanes is more broken than scald, as with scald burns, you still have a chance using the mons potential unless a physical attacker, with confusion you might not even get a chance to use the mon potential at all. It seems like we are more towards hating the move being used by a certain pokemon rather than the pokemon that can use the move to it's full capacity. This is an understandable of Mega Pidgeot, as never-missing hurricanes and the chance of confusion hax while dealing high damage in a tier w/ few things to handle both of those is a pain in the ass. I'm leaning towards ban.

 

[Wanka]

There is no way in hell pidgeot affects the viability of those mons to the extent some people have stated. It's not like they would or should move up or down on the viability rankings just because of pidgeot's presence.

key phrase.

 

[atomicllamas]

Got reqs, ladder is aids as usual.

Mega Pidgeot is a fantastic pokemon in UU with its great Speed, has sets able to beat offense and fat teams, and ability to fire off never-missing Hurricanes with a chance to confuse its checks. It has a limited movepool however, with Hurricane and Heat Wave being it's best attacking moves, it can provide momentum with U-Turn, as well as run it's well-known mono-atking stall-breaking set (Hurricane/Refresh/Work Up/Roost). The tier seemed to flow nicely without the Mega Bird. I have played UU with Pidgeot in it and no doubt in my mind it is a treat in UU.

I enjoy the playing the UU meta without the bird as I feel more things like fighting types and grass types play more rolls than ever to help out vs shit like Snorlax, Suicune, Feraligatr, etc. More fatter teams are applied with a safe reason of no Work Up Pidgeot. Slow mons on offense needing a quick boost to sweep (NP Lucario, Rain Dance Mega Pert, Tailwind Whims + CB Tyrantrum, etc.) are dominating more of the meta. Mega Beedrill is very nice to use as well with pidgeot gone. The meta looks a bit simliar without the bird, just more useage on mons that are weak to bird, which is expected during suspect testing.

After reading through the thread, I think the main reason why people want this banned is just because of it's ability to not miss hurricanes and playing w/ the 30% confusion hax. I'm not one to talk about banning moves as that is not part of the discussion however it kind of feels like it is only about Hurricane that's making Pidgeot "broken." If not, mons like M-Aero, Empoleon, Snorlax, Rotom-Heat, or w/e can just come in safely and either heal up or fire off their own attacks without worry. It has the same place as Scald, only a "broken" move because of the status effect that can change the outcome of the game quickly with a 30% chance. Example from our well-known god-father Omfuga:

Hide

[7:00:03 PM] Zamrock: give me a reason why I should ban pidgeot from UU
[7:00:09 PM] Omfuga: ,
[7:00:18 PM] Omfuga: confusion is gay
[7:00:19 PM] Omfuga: 3ez
[7:00:49 PM] Zamrock: sigh
[7:00:52 PM] Zamrock: anything else?
[7:01:31 PM] Omfuga: nah bro
[7:01:34 PM] Omfuga: I try and check this shit with p2
[7:01:35 PM] Omfuga: and then
[7:01:38 PM] Omfuga: it fuckin makes me hit myself
[7:01:40 PM] Omfuga: 3 times in a row
[7:02:16 PM] Zamrock: lol
[7:02:21 PM] Zamrock: so if it
[7:02:27 PM] Zamrock: didn't have hurricane
[7:02:31 PM] Zamrock: it wouldn't be broken in UU
[7:02:32 PM] Zamrock: yn
[7:05:00 PM] Omfuga: y

Obviously not my strongest example, yet it feels like we might as well place the #BanHurricane within the #BanScald conversation. Some people are more pro-ban because of the belief that 100% accurate hurricanes is more broken than scald, as with scald burns, you still have a chance using the mons potential unless a physical attacker, with confusion you might not even get a chance to use the mon potential at all. It seems like we are more towards hating the move being used by a certain pokemon rather than the pokemon that can use the move to it's full capacity. This is an understandable of Mega Pidgeot, as never-missing hurricanes and the chance of confusion hax while dealing high damage in a tier w/ few things to handle both of those is a pain in the ass. I'm leaning towards ban.

Did you actually post to say that Pidgeot wouldn't be broken without Hurricane (no shit) and propose that Hurricane is broken because of the 30% chance to confuse. Suspect discussion threads are physically painful for me to read.

 

[Natural Talent]

After getting reqs if feel as if i have the right to voice my opinion on Pidgeot.

This things is a menace to the tier, it has the ability to beat it's checks in counter through confusion hax which not many mons have the ability to. Paired with great speed, reliable recovery and monsterous special atk.

This mon has multiple sets that it can work with, one being the standard 2 atks with roost and u-turn or sub and work ups sets that are really powerful.

Pidgeot Applies lots of pressure on team building as u need to run at least 2 checks to it since you don't want to get haxed out of a check and then get destroyed.

Not really much wrong with Pidgeot except it's ability to always send of hurricane and scout for confusions and can free turns at some occasions. Pidgeot basically has the Flying type scald in his whims except it give confusions instead of burns.

Don't want to misplace this :x

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http://gyazo.com/6607d54f1435d7c4e6cfc2b7640126d3

 

[DaSpoofy]

There is no way in hell pidgeot affects the viability of those mons to the extent some people have stated. It's not like they would or should move up or down on the viability rankings just because of pidgeot's presence.

key phrase.

There is a difference between individual viability and a pokemon being able to fit on a team.

 

[Wanka]

There is a difference between individual viability and a pokemon being able to fit on a team.

Im not denying that...but those are the types of things that im seeing get posted

 

[Thisbemyalt]

There is no way in hell pidgeot affects the viability of those mons to the extent some people have stated. It's not like they would or should move up or down on the viability rankings just because of pidgeot's presence.

key phrase.

I dont really see your point here if I am being honest. I understand what you are saying but I don't see how you have come to this conclusion. Certain mons of course will drop and raise in VR because of pidgeot. This is not because they are less efficient at their job but because they allow a huge threat to come in and spam hurricane, this applies to all huge threats in the tier. When a mon allows a top tier threat in almost for free then of course it will be used less as people search for another mon to fill the same role without letting that threat in. VR is so subjective to metagame trends so of course mons will change in ranking when a huge threat is here or gone.

 

[lax]

ok I got reqs here are thoughts

I've noticed that with pidge out of the tier, lots of team building freedom has opened up and people don't have to have to worry about always having something to check the bird anymore. Lots of usage of fun mons to use (ex: Coba, fighting types) appeared more in the uu(suspect) tier because they do not have to worry about burd spamming strong, STAB, 100% hurricane. I think lots of team building opportunities have opened up and that seems healthy for the tier.
Some people think lots of things wall it or can hard check it but that's really not true. The work up/refresh pidge set just rips apart stall teams because they cannot kill it in return. Hurricane also has that 30% confuse chance and let's be real everyone hates confuse/confuse hax. To think that mega pidge can indefinitely abuse this bird spammy, strong move is crazy, but it even has a confuse chance as well. Some people would probably stay in with their pidge in a bad situation and go for the confuse hax because it has such a high chance of occurring.However, mega bird is not invincible, there are numerous problems with using mega pidgeot. Most of the scarfers like mienshao and rotom-heat can one shot it and also megas like aero and bee already outspeed it. It generally has a tough time getting into play as well due to its mediocre bulk and offense is a good battle style and very common in uu. Pretty sure the reason people really want pidge to be banned is that, like I said earlier, it restricts team building. Having to keep a bird check/counter on every single one of your teams could get annoying if you could use a different mon in that spot.
So honestly I have no idea about whether or not this should be banned because while it's not exactly a controllable mon I think there are some ways of dealing with it.
Abstain.

 

[IronBullet]

I'm leaning towards voting for a ban. Against offensive teams, I don't think Mega Pidgeot is much of an issue. Offense just puts so much pressure on it with priority, hazards, and fast revenge killers that it's not going to find many opportunities to come in and attempt a sweep, let alone Mega evolve.

If you look at balanced and more defensive teams, it's true that on paper Pidgeot has plenty of viable checks and the 30% confusion doesn't seem overwhelming. In practice, however, it is such a massive headache to face. It definitely isn't dependable to spam Hurricane against a slower check switching in, because the majority of the time it will still be able to cripple it or attack Pidgeot. However the fact is that, in my experience at least, people do stay in and spam Hurricane anyway. Considering that any switch-in slower than Pidgeot has a 51% chance of being confused over two Hurricanes, you can see why people do use it as a strategy. It might not outright win the Pidgeot user the game even if the check does get confused, but by making it harder for it to recover or by forcing it to switch out one can certainly open up holes in the opponent's team, which provides a potentially game-changing advantage. You can't base your entire team strategy around hoping for a confusion with Pidgeot, but it's more the free advantage that comes with using Pidgeot that's the issue here. Pidgeot is a good Pokemon in its own right even without the confusion; it has a base 121 Speed and a 110 BP STAB move with perfect accuracy, 135 SpA and no drawbacks. The 30% confusion chance that comes as a side effect of the move is what is pushing it over the edge. The bottom line is that any check, no matter how specially bulky, is going to be a shaky one because of that 30% (50% most of the time) chance. It has huge wallbreaking potential, which is what makes it problematic and is the strongest factor motivating me to vote for a ban.

Another thing is that, as other people have opined as well, I think the tier would simply be better off without it. Although I don't think it is over-centralizing (the Pokemon commonly used to check it such as Empoleon, Rotom-H, Porygon2, and Mamoswine are all excellent Pokemon that are often used on teams even in a Pidgeot-less tier), I've found this metagame without Pidgeot to be a lot more enjoyable, and it lets players breathe more easily. The 30% confusion chance that comes with using Pidgeot makes games less competitive than what we should be aiming for, and its absence makes the tier cleaner and healthier in my opinion. Banning Pidgeot solely because one prefers the tier without it as opposed to with it would set a dangerous precedent for future tests. However, when you combine this with the fact that I'm leaning towards it being outright broken in the first place, I think it is reasonable as a supporting argument.

Also, I'd just like to point out that the increase in viability of Pokemon such as Grass- and Fighting-types that some people have been talking about in the suspect thread is not a good argument for banning Pidgeot at all. Pidgeot really hasn't affected the viability of these Pokemon so much that they've become irrelevant. As YABO pointed out, having a Pokemon as good as Pidgeot is naturally going to affect them to an extent because every Pokemon in the tier is competing for a team slot, so if they lose to the best Pokemon in the tier of course their usage will be affected.

 

[Yifeng]

Hi

Um, this might be a stupid question, but where did the 51% come from?

 

[Freeroamer]

Odds to confuse either turn. (0.3*0.7) + (0.7*0.3) + (0.3*0.3) = 0.21 + 0.21 + 0.09 = 0.51

 

[Yifeng]

Could you elaborate on the numbers?

 

[Adaam]

Probability to not confuse = 0.7

Probability to not confuse after two hurricanes = 0.7 * 0.7 = 0.49.

Probability to confuse after 2 hurricanes = 1 - P(No confusion after 2) = 0.51

 

[Freeroamer]

(0.3*0.7) assumes it confuses the first turn but not the second
(0.7*0.3) assumes it confuses the second turn but not the first
(0.3*0.3) assumes it confuses both turns, although it's impossible to confuse an already confused pokemon, it's still a mathematical event. Think for example, Pidg could confuse an initial switchin, then confuses the next switchin.

The above is the same thing, just working out the probability not to confuse then subtracting from 1 and is probs the simpler way tbh. What has to be remembered about this calc however, is that it only details confusing a pokemon, and not the pokemon hitting itself either that turn if it was slower, or the next turn. Remember confusion is only 50% so the odds of being confused by a single Hurricane and then hitting yourself immediately afterwards are 15%.

 

[Yifeng]

ok thanks that makes a lot more sense

 

[Max Carvalho]

Just got reqs. So if I do vote ban, I would vote for Pidge being unhealthy to the meta, not really for being op. Some reasons I think Pidge isn't outright op.

• Is not even the best wallbreaker in the tier. See Ape. Ape has got way less switch ins than Pidge, and he doesn't even need luck for that. I'm not, definitely not saying Ape is by any means better than Pidge, I'm just saying that Ape perfoms his main role (wallbreaking) better than Pidge. Pidge simply doesn't have much of coverage options, if he doesn't run Heat Wave, he is simply relying on its nice offensive coverage with Hurricane alone. Basically Pidge has a great rooster of checks, all with its merits for being uses.
• Pidge is quite fast but on the other hand has got no priority. Against offense, Pidge should be only sent late-game to clean because of that or/also when powerful priority threats. As it was pointed several times in the thread, Pidge has lots of difficulties on being brought in battle due to its decent bulk.
• Hurricane isn't that spammable, and good players should resort to U-turn or simply double-switching when a flying-resist is brought. Personally, I try only to resort to hax in a Win-Lose situation. I know that there are people who abuse of this though.
• I Find confusion to be the weakest status out of Swagplay. Unlike Burn, it may only last until 4 turns, and if you don't want to take risks you can just switch out. The thing is, I don't see Hurricane luck factor being healthy to this tier by any means.

I think this suspect has caused doubts because Pidge doesn't seem to be an op mon, having a good number of viable checks, not demanding any gimmicky set/mon, and its meta presence (wether its healthy or not) isn't certain. I think there is a better option now than trying to determine how op burd is. Instead, We should look how it functions in the whole. Pidge is a clear teambuilder restrict demanding, deppending on your playstyle, a switch in to it. That alone isn't bad, as Pidge is a S-rank threat. But honestely, Hurricane without drawbacks coming from a mon that packs such a punch, being able to pass its check abusing from RNG its just bad. I'm pro-ban for Scald so, while it has a lot of diferences, the way it abuses of RNG, and the minimal thought it requires to be exploited can be related to Hurricane. The meta seems much more welcoming without Pidge's presence, and I think that as soon as we ban the burd, gator and Scald this tier will be really pleasant and fun to play. TL; DR I'm voting, for now, BAN.

 

[MegaMasher]

Just got reqs. So if I do vote ban, I would vote for Pidge being unhealthy to the meta, not really for being op. Some reasons I think Pidge isn't outright op.

• Is not even the best wallbreaker in the tier. See Ape. Ape has got way less switch ins than Pidge, and he doesn't even need luck for that. I'm not, definitely not saying Ape is by any means better than Pidge, I'm just saying that Ape perfoms his main role (wallbreaking) better than Pidge. Pidge simply doesn't have much of coverage options, if he doesn't run Heat Wave, he is simply relying on its nice offensive coverage with Hurricane alone. Basically Pidge has a great rooster of checks, all with its merits for being uses.
• Pidge is quite fast but on the other hand has got no priority. Against offense, Pidge should be only sent late-game to clean because of that or/also when powerful priority threats. As it was pointed several times in the thread, Pidge has lots of difficulties on being brought in battle due to its decent bulk.
• Hurricane isn't that spammable, and good players should resort to U-turn or simply double-switching when a flying-resist is brought. Personally, I try only to resort to hax in a Win-Lose situation. I know that there are people who abuse of this though.
• I Find confusion to be the weakest status out of Swagplay. Unlike Burn, it may only last until 4 turns, and if you don't want to take risks you can just switch out. The thing is, I don't see Hurricane luck factor being healthy to this tier by any means.

I think this suspect has caused doubts because Pidge doesn't seem to be an op mon, having a good number of viable checks, not demanding any gimmicky set/mon, and its meta presence (wether its healthy or not) isn't certain. I think there is a better option now than trying to determine how op burd is. Instead, We should look how it functions in the whole. Pidge is a clear teambuilder restrict demanding, deppending on your playstyle, a switch in to it. That alone isn't bad, as Pidge is a S-rank threat. But honestely, Hurricane without drawbacks coming from a mon that packs such a punch, being able to pass its check abusing from RNG its just bad. I'm pro-ban for Scald so, while it has a lot of diferences, the way it abuses of RNG, and the minimal thought it requires to be exploited can be related to Hurricane. The meta seems much more welcoming without Pidge's presence, and I think that as soon as we ban the burd, gator and Scald this tier will be really pleasant and fun to play. TL; DR I'm voting, for now, BAN.

Even though you are voting ban, I like what you said as a whole.

 

[Akkeshi]

So I said earlier in this thread I would post my final decision once I was finished with the suspect. I'm going to avoid repeating the points I made in my previous post and that other people have already made and make this brief. UU is a really fat tier with no shortage of special walls that can tank hurricanes and whilst confusion can be annoying I don't think it's a completely legitimate reason to ban something. But I do feel that being forced to run fat teams or something to specifically beat Mega-Pidgeot is (buzzword) over-centralizing to the metagame. It has access to recovery, a boosting move in work up and devastating STAB that allow it to break fat balance and stall teams and I think that makes it just a bit too strong for this tier. Right now I am in favour of banning, I'm sorry Bird Jesus forgive me.

 

[DrReuniclus]

I got reqs awhile back, but I never bothered to post anything due to being busy in real life and having some trauma about family members and some college stuff coming up, and I didn't want to get mercilessly chewed out on the thread for anything I say but since that isn't going away, I feel like I might as well post something now as I might not have time later. Pidgeot-Mega has decent stats comparable to all those bl2 birds that could just as easily be put on the suspect list if they actually got a 100% accurate hurricane, which, as some have already said, is why pidgeot should be on the chopping block and I honestly agree with them. I mean look at our tier and how susceptible it already is to flying spam in the first place. We already have so few resists to this as a whole due to our lack of viable electric (especially), steel and rock types and with that 51% chance to confuse that was talked about earlier none of these resists are going to be wanting to switch in on pidgeot anyways in fear of that confusion chance bar mons such as empoleon, spdef ampharos. This leaves us with dedicated walls such as spdef porygon2, umbreon, florges, cresselia, snorlax and blissey and about half of those have a chance to get 3hkoed if stealth rocks are up even after leftovers recovery and considering there is mostly no downside to just spamming another hurricane after the check has come in, other than status, which they have to fear using as you might as well have substitute in which case they have an even bigger threat to take down or refresh which may help you set up on them, as most cannot ohko pidgeot in return even when carrying moves such as ice beam in cresselia and porygon2's cases respectively, because fishing for that confusion chance is more reward than risk when it comes to pidgeot. I am by no means saying that their is a lack of checks vs pidgeot, but the elgibility of actually confusing these checks at least once in the match is so high that it just gets annoying. Vs more offensive teams, pidgeot's speed tier makes it a huge problem for them, as most don't have switchins at all for it, unless they run some sort of offensive empoleon or offensive mega amph, which again the chance of confusion comes up, which causes an even bigger problem for them and may give the opponent a free turn, which nobody really wants to give up in a pokemon battle. Sure pidgeot can be revenge killed by a scarfer on those sort of teams, but since the primer scarfers are mons such as meinshao, hydreigon and occasionally mence, they could easily just make a switch in to a wall such as florges, who resists all of them, to save pidgeot for another day where it can come in later on a well played volt turn or predicted switch and make the offensive team fodder another mon. There is almost no reason not to run this mon as the confusion hax chance with the speed tier with an incredible base 110 stab that almost none of the tier resists makes it overpowering and you are almost at a disadvantage when not running this mon.

Most of that though is information that you already knew about pidgeot, but I just wanna talk about my experience with the suspect test, I have been falling out of the uu tier for awhile as, honestly, I have been finding it as one of the least entertaining tiers to play and have found it more frustrating to play it more than anything. Partway through oras I feel that balance kinda just got the short end of the stick with the new threats such as mamo, pidgeot and gatr as huge offensive wallbreakers that are really all hard to handle all at once, and as that was my favorite xy style to play it really hit me hard as it made my teams look more streamlined and most everything was coming out the same as I had to use certain mons to be able to check everything I wanted. This has caused me to basically get off the playstyle more and move towards more offensively oriented teams as that's where it looked like oras is headed. I am by no means saying that balanced teams cannot be pulled off, as I have seen many players pull them off well, but I, however was just not good enough to do so. Anyways, I actually just stopped kinda playing the uu tier as much as I used to as it didn't seem like it was going in a direction where I could have fun. However, I want to say that I actually had fun laddering in uu for once in a long time, (aside from my internet connection problems that I've been having for the last week), I actually enjoyed the tier, which is something that I haven't been able to say for awhile now. This is by no means by the fault of hikari and sam, as they have done a wonderful job managing the tier, its just been more me being stubborn to adapt more than anything else. Anyways, I really enjoyed the overall freedom of the tier and what you are able to run, allowing for mons such as infernape and azelf that had speed tiers just a little lower than pidgeot to be utilized more and give them a chance to shine more than they could have. Its also nice to actually be able to run grass types that pidgeot isn't threatening out every few turns. All playstyles have gotten a little more room for innovation with pidgeot gone from stall to offense and I feel that it'll be healthy for the tier. Overall I think taking away mega pidgeot is for the best because it'll allow for a little more breathing room for playstyles, has hurricane hax and mostly, I won't lie, it is because I enjoy the tier more without it, so I am going to be voting BAN on mega pidgeot. I also want to apologize if this is poorly written as I'm doing this after a basically sleepless night after some family trauma stuff as I said in the beginning, but I told myself I was going to write something, so I guess this is my something, please forgive me.

 

[Max Carvalho]

About the argument of "I've seen rise in usage of x and y" I could say that the absence of Pidge leaves to a decrease in usage of Normal- and Dark-types such as Blissey and Umbreon due to the staggering amount of Fighting-types thus causing less variety. Pidge is an influentional threat to the point of making mons more or less viable, it being in UU or not. It's worth it to note how usage of several mons rose by the absence of Pidge as it makes easier to see that, being ban worthy or not, Pidge is an incredible force in UU, affecting teambuilding in a very large scale, but I also think this information shouldn't be used as an argurment for Pidge's unhealthiness in UU, because theorically I could proof Pidge's healthiness in UU with the decrease in usage of several other mons, as I exemplified in the beginning of this paragraph.

 

[Killintime]

Alright so far from what ive played from the suspect ladder I am seeing a staggering amount of variety in teams. Offence used to be so much more stale but now that bird is gone I am seeing mons like tornadus and noivern getting usage and fighting spam isnt something im seeing thanks to this. Mons like empoleon or rotom heat were basically mandatory on balance teams to prevent mega pidgeot from simply nuking your walls with a barrage of hurricanes which in itself isnt so much of a problem. The problem is the fact this move confuses at the rate scald burns, and this is more of an issue since confusion can leave a mon useless at times. Say you switch florges in on a hurricane and you get confused you decide to opt for the wish and you end up hitting yourself, now your sitting at about 40% of your health and decide that you either attempt for another wish or sack a mon in hopes of trying to get a wish off on florges. Its to the point i kill snorlax from full entirely based on rng. Machamp tends to score its kills in a similar manner but unlike mega bird it lacks the great speed stat. The bird itself has decent coverage and fits well on most teams, has decent bulk for its role, and has 2 sets to choose from. The work up set allows for decent stall breaking in that it can setup on mons like blissey or normal crocune. I honestly like mega bird and ive used it quite often but i have to say its pretty cancerous towards the meta. I mean the second it was gone when i was building a team for the suspect my first thought was "oh i dont need a bird check". To be honest though I am not sure why this is being suspected first when there are far more notable mons like feraligator on the prowl. I mean it just strengthens offence so much but I will try to keep myself from questioning the UU leaders any further. overall i would have to say BAN on the bird just because it makes the meta that much more enjoyable.

 

[Vapo]

Man, this has been a tough suspect for me. I'll be honest, I went into the suspect thinking I would vote ban no matter what I read in the thread. I'm almost never swayed by other people's opinions (not so much because I believe I'm always right, but rather because I'm stubborn). Anyways, I really felt torn throughout this whole process. While I initially thought Mega Pidgeot was broken and was an easy ban to make, after reading many of the posts made I realized it wasn't nearly as broken as I originally made it out to be. I realized that this would not be like the Serperior test with everyone generally having the same ideas and voting the same thing. I kinda wish Pidgeot got Focus Blast or had some other quality about it that made it an easy ban to make. Mega Pidgeot is honestly about the closest a pokemon can get to the borderline between broken and just really good. There are aspects about it that make it seem like just a solid pokemon to use in the meta. It's fast, hits hard, and has arguably the most spammable STAB move in the game, but it lacks coverage besides said STAB and Heat Wave, making it a pretty one-dimensional pokemon. It is also pretty easy to revenge kill, as is any offensive pokemon for the most part. However, what pushes it into that 'borderline broken' territory is its ability to nullify switchins, whether they are defensive or offensive, with Hurricane's 30% confusion chance. It's this aspect that really deters me from voting 'no ban' freely, because other than this confusion chance, Pidgeot in my opinion is a completely manageable pokemon. The ability to blow past its normal checks (aka not having any 100% reliable offensive switchins / defensive checks), however, is definitely something I consider broken and potentially ban worthy. It's been said before, but the things that check Pidgeot on paper just cannot do so reliably in practice.

Aside from the 'practical' reasons to ban Pidgeot, I'd like to go into my personal opinion on the meta without it. I really enjoyed playing on the suspect ladder and getting reqs. Why? Because every other team didn't look identical with the same Pidgeot / Empoleon / Cresselia core (not to say this core was everywhere on the ladder, but they were just pokemon that were a lot more common in Pidgeot meta, and I kinda hated looking at them). It was really cool to see past gems like Roserade, Shaymin, Machamp, and even Toxicroak come out to play (mons that saw significantly less usage when Pidgeot was around). UU was refreshing, in my opinion, with significantly less fat balance cores and a lot more variety. While I understand that having a more fun meta (in my opinion) without Pidgeot is not a fantastic reason to ban it on its own, in combination with my previous qualms stated above, it really helped me settle on the decision to vote Ban.

 

[dingbat]

Just as i reach the 2600 coil zone, the tilt finally begins;;;;((((;& I will be so fucking disappointed with myself if I don't finish this with an 80 gxe,,

Anyways, I can say with a great degree of confidence that the balance playstyle will be boosted significantly by the lack of mega pidgey. After letting go a massive portion of the teambuilding burden on a speedy-ass threat that can more than readily fire off miss-free hurricanes and potentially spread its confusion aids throughout my entire team right off the bat, I feel that it's that much easier to build a solid balance team that can more capably handle a mass majority of mid-top tier threats. Yes, there are still threats like Gatr and Mamoswine that are still capable of striking balance down to its knees at times and the case can certainly be made that testing Gatr also helps revive the balance playstyle. However, I understand that there will always be threats that are capable of putting in tons of work against certain playstyles; that is the nature of competitive battling, and I have no qualms about keeping certain threats in this metagame while banning others, as long as the major playstyles aren't getting completely fucked over by some combination of threats. As a result, I feel that testing pidgey first was ultimately the best decision the UU council made, at least in terms of helping lift up a major playstyle that in the recent months has been lagging so far behind.

As someone who makes the most out of the balance playstyle as a battler, I am now more than ever inclined to vote ban on Mega Pidgey.

 

[Kink]

I mentioned earlier I'd make an extended post, so here it is.

The Underused tier has always found itself in an awkward position due to the fact that it is the immediate tier after OU, which forces the tiering process to be meticulous at best, and utterly redundant at its worst. This happens due to the fact that all tiering done after OU is not usage based, and UU is the first target of this affect of differences between the upper and lower tiers. Pokemon in the Underused tier can be somewhat effective in the OU tier, and OU Pokemon can sometimes offer more for the UU tier (mandibuzz, mamoswine), and the interplay between the usage statistics often forces Pokemon to come in and out every three months. This process ultimately produces situations where tiering must be done very carefully. Even if a Pokemon isn't originally OU as is the case with Mega Pidgeot, lack of OU usage can sometimes drop bombs on our tier, and Mega Pidgeot is the perfect representation of this affect.

Is Mega Pidgeot broken on paper? I'd have to say no; there are a plethora of dedicated special walls and viable scarf Pokemon that can play around the offensive style produced by Mega Pidgeot. And, theoretically, a 30% chance to confuse and gain a turn sounds similar to a Flinch induced by Pokemon such as Yanmega, Cobalion, or Moltres, and frankly those play styles aren't even remotely broken, so why the discussion on a 30% confuse rate? A base 121 stat is impressive, but not the top of the speed tier list by a long shot, and its mediocre bulk and defensive typing leaves it easily susceptible to being revenge killed or walled if a hurricane confuse doesn't pull through. Begging the question aside, Mega Pidgeot has the teammates needed to bring it in safely, ultimately utilizing a near-foolproof strategy of pressing the Hurricane button as much as possible until a check or counter does break. This is because of the intricate makeup that is Mega Pidgeot. Consider this for a second:

- Base 121 Spe / 135 SpA
- access to Roost, giving it the edge against less offensive teams
- a STAB 110 Hurricane with a 51% chance to confuse after two clicks
- the ability to change its functionality with one simple move; Defog, U-turn, Heat Wave, Substitute, Refresh, Work Up can all combine to create the necessary Mega Pidgeot for your team.
- the perfect balance/offensive team options in the forms of Swampert, Mamoswine, Krookodile, Empoleon, Rotom-H, Chandelure, Reuniclus, Heliolisk, Umbreon, Florges, and many many many more options (I literally just gave you a like 15 different potential cores haha).

It's not the Pokemon itself, it's the combination of team options which bring out the most of Mega Pidgeots capabilities. As Mega Pidgeot is already an S rank threat, having an entire team that can push it to near perfect win scenarios is extremely limiting for the tier. Playing without it on the ladder has opened up possibilities for a huge amount of Pokemon including every single Grass-type in the tier. When considering what to ban, UU needs to make sure that it's not attempting to balance offense with more offense, and letting Mega Pidgeot stay is not the correct way at addressing potential problems in this tier that may have arisen from Gatr or Mamo, neither of which care about Mega Pidgeot in the slightest, aside from being screwed by a Hurricane just like everything else in this tier.

The BL tier exists such that any Pokemon that find their way into UU due to usage statistics, or lack of OU use, don't plug up the effectiveness of our tier. For all intents and purposes, BL is OU to us, and Mega Pidgeot belongs in that realm. It pushes offense teams to unrequited heights in this tier, and forces people to use choice Pokemon (empoleon for instance), forcing a restriction of team building in a tier that is begging for diversity now more than ever. Ban.

 

[BK]

M-Pidgeot is basically stupid as Tornadus-t was in BW2 era, and we all know how that turned out. His movepool is not so large, but gives it all he needs, a good recovery move such as Roost (making his weakness to rocks not a real problem), that in combo with his speed allows it to check some Rock/Ice move too; Hurricane, probabily the first reason because this Pokemon could be considered broken, since it got a 110 base power Stab move with 100% accuracy that has a the same confusion rate of Scald's burn and we all know how Scald is considered by good players; Heat Wave makes most of Steel typing pokemon not reliable checkers and the last move it usually runs, U-turn, allows it a great way to gain momentum against defensive teams. After playing a bit in this suspect, i realized that a ladder without a pokemon with all these features is undoubtedly more healty; before this suspect any balanced team, a bit like any offensive one, had to consider this issue in their teambuilding (the so called overcentralizing), almost impossible to check even if the oppo simply clicks the stab