Nobody of any significant stature in the community in the last few months has argued that Scarf Hydreigon is a problem. Maybe that expecting AoA or Taunt Roost and then getting a Scarf Draco to the dome will mess someone up (not that -2 Hydreigon isn't hilariously easy to set up on), but the pro-ban arguments have ALWAYS centered around AoA and Taunt Roost.
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np: ORAS UU Stage 7.3 - See No Evil | Baton Pass Suspect - see post #110
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So from what I understand from your arguments, Hydreigon is like when Landorous-I was in OU? Maybe even more broken than Landorous-I, because of it's natural bulk and excellent typing.
Mate, I've not compared Hydreigon to Landorus-I in any way. I'm looking at how Hydreigon affects the current meta and why I think it's ban worthy.
That's not what I meant. I was just trying to understand the position of Hydreigon and trying to compare it with Landorous-I. I do agree on Hydreigon being banned and it seems more clearly why it is ban-worthy through your thoughts.
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Work Up
- Draco Meteor/Crunch/dark pulse
- Superpower
- Iron Tail
+1 152 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 733-863 (102.6 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 343-406 (87 - 103%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye: 352-415 (115.7 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 281-333 (75.1 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Cresselia: 263-309 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(263, 265, 269, 270, 274, 278, 281, 285, 286, 290, 294, 296, 300, 302, 305, 309)
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Cresselia: 322-382 (72.6 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(322, 328, 330, 335, 338, 343, 346, 351, 354, 359, 361, 367, 369, 374, 377, 382)
A work up on a forced switch and gg vs stall and fat balance. This forces stall and balance to run a hydreigon revenge killer which limits teambuilding even more than slaping sylveon on everything. You could also run ebelt to bluff scarf vs offense and punish lucarios and cobalions coming in -2 hydreigon
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Work Up
- Draco Meteor/Crunch/dark pulse
- Superpower
- Iron Tail
+1 152 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 733-863 (102.6 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 343-406 (87 - 103%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye: 352-415 (115.7 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 281-333 (75.1 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Cresselia: 263-309 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(263, 265, 269, 270, 274, 278, 281, 285, 286, 290, 294, 296, 300, 302, 305, 309)
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Cresselia: 322-382 (72.6 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(322, 328, 330, 335, 338, 343, 346, 351, 354, 359, 361, 367, 369, 374, 377, 382)
A work up on a forced switch and gg vs stall and fat balance. This forces stall and balance to run a hydreigon revenge killer which limits teambuilding even more than slaping sylveon on everything. You could also run ebelt to bluff scarf vs offense and punish lucarios and cobalions coming in -2 hydreigon
While I'm still on the fence, i feel like given the argument that it has so many good sets, you can usually (or at least should be able to) tell what kind of set it is based on like team composition. granted its never 100% but i feel like the fear of what kind of set it is shouldn't be like that great.
its also been said before, but with the not so recent drops (sylveon, conk, offensive celebi) hydreigon did get some more checks
(also side note any offensive sylveon should pretty much always be running quick attack like no joke lol)
0 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hydreigon: 232-276 (71.3 - 84.9%)
thats like best case but even
0- Atk Pixilate Sylveon Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 160-192 (49.2 - 59%)
still a 2KO lol
also despite its fire and water resists, hydreigon is quite susceptible to getting burned by scalds and sacred fires, since its supposed to be switching in on those mons right, which combined with life orb and rocks can wear it down quite fast
i also feel like its worth mentioning that it doesn't exactly have the strongest spammable stab compared to Enteis 100 BP sacred fire or Krooks 97.5 Knock off. Draco is a nuke obviously, but not really spammable. honestly this point is more nitpicky idk why I'm still typing lol
that is all
its also been said before, but with the not so recent drops (sylveon, conk, offensive celebi) hydreigon did get some more checks
(also side note any offensive sylveon should pretty much always be running quick attack like no joke lol)
0 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hydreigon: 232-276 (71.3 - 84.9%)
thats like best case but even
0- Atk Pixilate Sylveon Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 160-192 (49.2 - 59%)
still a 2KO lol
also despite its fire and water resists, hydreigon is quite susceptible to getting burned by scalds and sacred fires, since its supposed to be switching in on those mons right, which combined with life orb and rocks can wear it down quite fast
i also feel like its worth mentioning that it doesn't exactly have the strongest spammable stab compared to Enteis 100 BP sacred fire or Krooks 97.5 Knock off. Draco is a nuke obviously, but not really spammable. honestly this point is more nitpicky idk why I'm still typing lol
that is all
So personally not aligned to any side just yet although probably going to end up with pro-ban since no one's convinced me of anything too great on the other side of things, but I kinda just wanted to do a slight response here to this. The thing about trying to guess Hydreigon's set is that it always (about 90% of the time) has two constants in its dual STAB; Dark Pulse and Draco Meteor. Both moves are on just about every viable set excluding more niche options and I'm not sure you can say the same about most other versatile wallbreakers in where they have their dual STAB moves completely constant despite the set they're running. The reason why this is so big is that it makes Hydreigon much harder to scout and as some others have pointed out before me (I think, haven't read everything), you can punished for scouting so easily and Hydreigon users could always play a bluff really well. For example, say they Draco Meteor on your switch into Sylveon early on, that Hydreigon essentially has given you no information and you're still left wondering what set it is. The fact that this and Dark Pulse are pretty much on every set means you could potentially bluff a whole variety of sets with very little impunity depending on how you play, which is an unfair advantage this Pokemon provides imo. Anyhow regardless, Hydreigon's set isn't always the easiest to guess and could 100% backfire.
The other thing that caught my attention was the statement that the "new" drops have all arguably been decent Hydreigon checks. While that may be true to an extent, I believe that Sylveon dropping honestly made Hydreigon get to the point it is now. What I mean by this is that beforehand (as someone else pointed out iirc), Hydreigon essentially only ran two main sets in TauntRoost and Scarf with other options being mostly niche and this was due to the lack of really strong offensive Fairy-type nukes that were extremely splashable (rip Gardevoir) and due to that most teams could put in mostly weak Fairy-resists as long as they had good Florges answers. As that was the case there was no need for Iron Tail on most sets to prevent a nuke from incoming but now it is.
I'm still not sure about Hydreigon tbh but these are the first initial thoughts I have from building and playing in a Hydreigon-less meta.
It's obviously worth noting that most people's reaction to preparing for Hydreigon is to add a Fairy to their team, naturally this is pretty astute as they have enormous special bulk, resist both STABs, Steel coverage isn't so common etc. I came into this test with the misconception(I'm sure a few others also did) that pre-suspect I was virtually forced 90% of the time to use one of these pokemon when building anything that wasn't hard stall(which can somewhat cope with Hydreigon better by spreading it between it's members, plus the Fairy overlaps with Bliss in a lot of roles) and that in a Hydreigon-less meta, this might be significantly reduced. I haven't actually found this to be the case however, mainly on bulky offense to fatter balances, because Fairies are such good pokemon in their own right. When you consider support Sylveon/Florges can check Mega Scep; Conk(this is huge, I tried really hard the other day to make a fairyless balance not weak to Conk and got rly rly stuck), Mega Shark, Mega Blastoise, Kyurem, Heracross, Scarf Mienshao, Haxorus, Sableye(S to B+ of the VR) all in one slot not including the stuff it can 1v1 with a free switch, then it becomes pretty clear that regardless of whether Hydreigon is in the tier or not these pokemon will continue to be a premium pick for those styles of play. From this point, I actually discovered that while some offensive pokemon were more appealing to build with now they don't get checked by Hydreigon, my teambuilding wasn't radically altered by the lack of it in the tier. The main difference I found was on offense, where Whimsicott became less of a mandatory pick, but again is still a good pokemon in it's own right as an emergency button vs opposing sweepers while checking a few important mons. I'm not the greatest offense or stall builder/player so if anyone would like to elaborate on how their building was affected by Hydreigon or lack of it I'd be very interested to hear it. However in my personal experience, if Hydreigon is ban-worthy, this isn't the reason why.
EDIT: Just want to make clear that while I don't believe in absolutes and therefore don't believe you absolutely mandatory need a Fairy or you perish at the thought of Hydreigon, they're undoubtedly the go-to most effective response and therefore are why I focus on them in this.
It's obviously worth noting that most people's reaction to preparing for Hydreigon is to add a Fairy to their team, naturally this is pretty astute as they have enormous special bulk, resist both STABs, Steel coverage isn't so common etc. I came into this test with the misconception(I'm sure a few others also did) that pre-suspect I was virtually forced 90% of the time to use one of these pokemon when building anything that wasn't hard stall(which can somewhat cope with Hydreigon better by spreading it between it's members, plus the Fairy overlaps with Bliss in a lot of roles) and that in a Hydreigon-less meta, this might be significantly reduced. I haven't actually found this to be the case however, mainly on bulky offense to fatter balances, because Fairies are such good pokemon in their own right. When you consider support Sylveon/Florges can check Mega Scep; Conk(this is huge, I tried really hard the other day to make a fairyless balance not weak to Conk and got rly rly stuck), Mega Shark, Mega Blastoise, Kyurem, Heracross, Scarf Mienshao, Haxorus, Sableye(S to B+ of the VR) all in one slot not including the stuff it can 1v1 with a free switch, then it becomes pretty clear that regardless of whether Hydreigon is in the tier or not these pokemon will continue to be a premium pick for those styles of play. From this point, I actually discovered that while some offensive pokemon were more appealing to build with now they don't get checked by Hydreigon, my teambuilding wasn't radically altered by the lack of it in the tier. The main difference I found was on offense, where Whimsicott became less of a mandatory pick, but again is still a good pokemon in it's own right as an emergency button vs opposing sweepers while checking a few important mons. I'm not the greatest offense or stall builder/player so if anyone would like to elaborate on how their building was affected by Hydreigon or lack of it I'd be very interested to hear it. However in my personal experience, if Hydreigon is ban-worthy, this isn't the reason why.
EDIT: Just want to make clear that while I don't believe in absolutes and therefore don't believe you absolutely mandatory need a Fairy or you perish at the thought of Hydreigon, they're undoubtedly the go-to most effective response and therefore are why I focus on them in this.
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I second this to an extent. While i ladder as well as i climb an oiled firemans pole i did notice that none of the things used as soild checks to hydra are bad or unviable in there rolls besides checking hydra, quite the opposite. But i think the issue isnt that its checks arnt good but rather that if you dont run a fairy or 2+ soft checks like coba/cune then you can very easily get over run with just draco + pivot. Sorry for the short 2cents. But its an interesting issue because it is an S rank and should be accounted for when building but with the other 3 s ranks i find it very easy to either use a covermove or just resist their stabs and wear them down but hyda NEEds to be checked and solidly or it will just overwhelm whatever its in on and then switch out.
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blinkie
¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
Right now I'm on the fence but I'm leaning towards no ban because I think that Hydreigon is not broken-rather it is a pokemon with good outplay potential.
Hydreigon's powerful damage and a great movepool to make it strong, but it also suffers from a mediocre 98 base speed, which leaves it getting creeped by a lot of 100 base speed pokemons. As many people have mentioned, Hydreigon does not really have a true counter, as it can beat almost anything given the right moveset and predictions. However, this is definitely up to the player to use the right movesets on Hydreigon and predict switch-ins well, especially on the Choiced sets. It has a lot of great coverage moves and Taunt+Roost to deal with walls, but it cannot have everything at once, instead relying on the skill of the player to do well, not just straight up broken like mega mence in OU. I also don't think it truly changes the meta that much, as when I was getting reqs, I still saw lots of Sylveons and Florges, but take everything I say with a grain of salt because I haven't really played in 2 years.
Hydreigon's powerful damage and a great movepool to make it strong, but it also suffers from a mediocre 98 base speed, which leaves it getting creeped by a lot of 100 base speed pokemons. As many people have mentioned, Hydreigon does not really have a true counter, as it can beat almost anything given the right moveset and predictions. However, this is definitely up to the player to use the right movesets on Hydreigon and predict switch-ins well, especially on the Choiced sets. It has a lot of great coverage moves and Taunt+Roost to deal with walls, but it cannot have everything at once, instead relying on the skill of the player to do well, not just straight up broken like mega mence in OU. I also don't think it truly changes the meta that much, as when I was getting reqs, I still saw lots of Sylveons and Florges, but take everything I say with a grain of salt because I haven't really played in 2 years.
Hydreigon. I never thought I would see the day that Hydreigon of all Pokemon would be suspected. Because of this, I guess I'LL give my two cents on the matter.
First, the pro ban arguments:
1. Hydreigon has no true counters. Well, Mamoswine has no true counters, so can you really call this an argument? If a Pokemon has no true counters, it doesn't mean its unwallable. It just means its difficult to wall until you can switch around it. Here's a quote from the Smogon strategy for Hydreigon:
"Hydreigon belongs to the special group of Pokemon that can boast they possess no true counters: they potentially carry a move that can OHKO or 2HKO any Pokemon in the game, and as such are virtually impossible to switch into." Notice how it says, "they can potentially carry a move." If a Pokemon has no counters, it would 2HKO every Pokemon in the game with one move, which Hydreigon can only do with its coverage moves. Which brings me to the next argument:
2. It has godlike coverage. Well, so does Celebi. Hydreigon's godlike coverage is boosted even further by its 105 Attack and 125 Special Attack, which is good in all, but it can't just click a move and expect it to 2HKO whatever switches in. It just doesn't work like that. Another move that can be brought up is Taunt. Taunt is a pretty common move, no surprise Hydreigon would have it. In fact, many big powerhouse stallbreakers have Taunt. Another move brought up is Roost. Dragonite has it, Salamence has it, no surprise that Hydreigon has it. These two pro-ban arguments can be applied to other Dragons such as Black Kyurem, except without the Taunt, because Black Kyurem doesn't need Taunt to curbstomp whatever decides to stand in its way (because people don't know that HP Fire is a thing.)
Now, on to the anti-ban arguments:
1. Its base Speed sucks. This is true. In a land of fast attackers and Mega Sharpedo, 98 base Speed is just pitiful. The low Speed is also what deters me from using Nidoking. Not much more needs to be said about that.
2. Dragon/Dark is amazing offensively, but trash defensively. This could not be more true. If Scarfed Gardevoir exists, Moonblast says hello, and Quick Attack from Sylveon says hello, too. Not to mention, Mach Punch is still a move, and it rips Hydreigon in half more than Sylveon's Quick Attack. Also, did I forget to mention Mamoswine gets Ice Shard?
In a nutshell, Hydreigon is basically Hoopa-U. It's very powerful, but suffers from some gaping flaws that leave it behind other powerhouses in UU. Thus, I say Do Not Ban.
First, the pro ban arguments:
1. Hydreigon has no true counters. Well, Mamoswine has no true counters, so can you really call this an argument? If a Pokemon has no true counters, it doesn't mean its unwallable. It just means its difficult to wall until you can switch around it. Here's a quote from the Smogon strategy for Hydreigon:
"Hydreigon belongs to the special group of Pokemon that can boast they possess no true counters: they potentially carry a move that can OHKO or 2HKO any Pokemon in the game, and as such are virtually impossible to switch into." Notice how it says, "they can potentially carry a move." If a Pokemon has no counters, it would 2HKO every Pokemon in the game with one move, which Hydreigon can only do with its coverage moves. Which brings me to the next argument:
2. It has godlike coverage. Well, so does Celebi. Hydreigon's godlike coverage is boosted even further by its 105 Attack and 125 Special Attack, which is good in all, but it can't just click a move and expect it to 2HKO whatever switches in. It just doesn't work like that. Another move that can be brought up is Taunt. Taunt is a pretty common move, no surprise Hydreigon would have it. In fact, many big powerhouse stallbreakers have Taunt. Another move brought up is Roost. Dragonite has it, Salamence has it, no surprise that Hydreigon has it. These two pro-ban arguments can be applied to other Dragons such as Black Kyurem, except without the Taunt, because Black Kyurem doesn't need Taunt to curbstomp whatever decides to stand in its way (because people don't know that HP Fire is a thing.)
Now, on to the anti-ban arguments:
1. Its base Speed sucks. This is true. In a land of fast attackers and Mega Sharpedo, 98 base Speed is just pitiful. The low Speed is also what deters me from using Nidoking. Not much more needs to be said about that.
2. Dragon/Dark is amazing offensively, but trash defensively. This could not be more true. If Scarfed Gardevoir exists, Moonblast says hello, and Quick Attack from Sylveon says hello, too. Not to mention, Mach Punch is still a move, and it rips Hydreigon in half more than Sylveon's Quick Attack. Also, did I forget to mention Mamoswine gets Ice Shard?
In a nutshell, Hydreigon is basically Hoopa-U. It's very powerful, but suffers from some gaping flaws that leave it behind other powerhouses in UU. Thus, I say Do Not Ban.
I do think that the primary problem with Hydra is his ability to deal with slower Pokemon without a scarf and hit hard with a scarf but i think his speed is one of his greatest deficits. I also think that his effectiveness relies on the moves that are used in the last two slots, and although the options are many they aren't impossible to beat. 4 pokemon that deal with Hydra well are Blissey, Umbreon, Florges and Sylveon. If Hydra wants to beat these four he has to run moves to counter them individually and cant blanket them. And for the 2 fairies (which are 2 highly used mons in the tier even during the suspect) the only move he can use to hit them is iron tail, and we all know how reliable that is. for the other 2 you need superpower (most likely) and in essence you have a forced moveset, but if he is going to be effective, Hydra needs as much coverage as he can get, and in a way suffers from 4MSS. Although he is versatile, I do not think he is overpowered.
I say Do Not Ban
And please if I am incorrect in my statements, please inform me so that I may change my standing. (possibly)
I say Do Not Ban
And please if I am incorrect in my statements, please inform me so that I may change my standing. (possibly)
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I'll address the bottom half of your post because the top half has already been covered multiple times and I don't have anything to add. Hydreigon's base Speed doesn't "suck". 17 out of almost 70 Pokemon in the tier outspeed it (Entei technically outspeeds as well, but every relevant set runs an Adamant nature), and many of those are Mega Evolutions and thus have the associated opportunity cost, i.e. you can't run more than one on your team. I don't see how this speed tier is anything less than good, much less as "pitiful" as you claim it is.
As for Hydreigon's defensive typing, it's far from "trash". The value of resistances to Water-, Fire-, Grass-, Electric-, Ground-, Dark-, Ghost-, and Psychic-type attacks should not be underestimated. The amount of defensive utility that Hydreigon can contribute to a team by virtue of its typing and base defenses is unparalleled by any other offensive Pokemon. Hydreigon grants the user an offensive check to threats such as Celebi, Chandelure, Crawdaunt, Doublade, Entei, Krookodile, and more at the opportunity cost of a single slot. The ability to recover off the damage it sustains while fulfilling those roles with Roost is just icing on the cake. Sure, it's weak to certain priority attacks, but its innate bulk allows it to survive most of those from full health anyway (Mach Punch from the standard Choice Band Conkeldurr KOs, but Hydreigon survives everything else fairly comfortably).
Hydreigon isn't a mon with "gaping flaws that leave it behind other powerhouses in UU". It's at the top of the viability rankings and provides incredible offensive presence and defensive utility. Its versatility means that every one of its sets matches up well against at least one playstyle and most of its sets are useful against multiple playstyles. Thus, I say Ban.
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I just want to make some points on my thoughts after earning reqs twice (first time with a rain team but realized I learned nothing of the meta by out speeding everything). First, I tried to understand why Hydreigon was put up for a suspect test now after so long in the UU tier. What’s changed in the tier to make Hydreigon better? Well UU got Crawdaunt, Gyarados, Celebi, Conkeldurr, and Sylveon from BL and OU. Looking quickly at this Hydreigon doesn’t mind Crawdaunt in the tier but the rest can pressure it. Hydreigon can also pressure them too with powerful stabs and coverage but Conkeldurr and Sylveon are good checks to every Hydreigon set and Celebi has Dazzling gleam to ohko Hydreigon (87.5% chance to OHKO without spA boost). Celebi is also faster so it makes Hydreigon want to run scarf which limits its offensive damage potential and defensive sustainability. Against Gyarados its closer with Hydreigon usually winning 1v1 thanks to out-speeding and Draco 2hkoing but Gyardos can win if it gets a DD off prior to Hydreigon coming in and Hydreigon not being choice scarf. The accuracy of moves also comes into play against Gyarados along with potential substitutes dropping Hydreigon’s if it picks Draco Meteor to attack. Overall seems to me that these changes have potentially lessened Hydreigon’s effectiveness.
Previously Hydreigon had lots of checks and revenge killers as well as a few things considered counters. Things like Florges and Blissey were considered full stops to Hydreigon except for the rare specs Flash cannon/Iron Tail or Superpower respectively. Checks included Cobalion and Empoleon and things like Umbreon and Mandibuzz and P2. There are lots more and I suggest you check out the checks Compendium on the forums here http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-uu-teambuilding-compendium-version-2-0.3561758/ Revenge killers included Mega Beedrill, Choice scarf Mienshao and Infernape along with priority options like Mega Abomasnow and Mamoswine. So while Hydreigon was and always will be a threat, there have always been ways to handle it and that continues in the current UU meta with even more threats to account for. And yes Hydreigon has ways to beat most of those mons listed above given the right set, but it has 4 move slot syndrome in doing so and often requires good gameplay to break past answers. Example being the taunt roost set handling Umbreon but that same set being useless against say a Cobalion. Another example being the wallbreaker Life orb set with Flash Cannon and Superpower, now things like Mandibuzz and can 1v1 Hydreigon and Hydreigon is more vulnerable to revenge killers. If you wanted to run the choice scarf set to outspeed Celebi and other speedy mons then you lose the ability to wallbreak and things like Blissey and P2 have a much easier time. Also, notice how these checks and counters are all pretty common, so for the most part, you don’t have to use something unviable just to take on Hydreigon.
So why is Hydreigon up for a suspect test? I still don’t really know as I don’t see what’s changed to make it better. You can go through all the old player of the week interviews where they talk about the health of the UU metagame and no one mentions Hydreigon until very recently. Seems to me that perhaps Hydreigon is not the problem, but maybe the power of the drops since the Crawdaunt suspect has created a power creep and Hydreigon is the fall guy. To me, something like Celebi is a way bigger threat to every playstyle imo. Then you’ve got Sylveon who is a huge threat with specs. Conkeldurr dismantles cores with Bulk up or a Choice band or even AV. Not saying that these are all broken (Celebi is to me though) but I think these new threats have pressured the UU meta hard by combining more bulk and more power than we as a community are used to. I think teambuilding is the most difficult it’s ever been as it’s impossible to handle everything, especially for balance which is the lifeblood of the tier. I think it’s a shame if Hydreigon gets banned as it’s not the problem. It’s a powerful and pretty well-rounded mon which rewards good teambuilding and gameplay while not being able to run through teams on its own. Hydreigon is not broken imo and therefore I will vote no ban.
Previously Hydreigon had lots of checks and revenge killers as well as a few things considered counters. Things like Florges and Blissey were considered full stops to Hydreigon except for the rare specs Flash cannon/Iron Tail or Superpower respectively. Checks included Cobalion and Empoleon and things like Umbreon and Mandibuzz and P2. There are lots more and I suggest you check out the checks Compendium on the forums here http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-uu-teambuilding-compendium-version-2-0.3561758/ Revenge killers included Mega Beedrill, Choice scarf Mienshao and Infernape along with priority options like Mega Abomasnow and Mamoswine. So while Hydreigon was and always will be a threat, there have always been ways to handle it and that continues in the current UU meta with even more threats to account for. And yes Hydreigon has ways to beat most of those mons listed above given the right set, but it has 4 move slot syndrome in doing so and often requires good gameplay to break past answers. Example being the taunt roost set handling Umbreon but that same set being useless against say a Cobalion. Another example being the wallbreaker Life orb set with Flash Cannon and Superpower, now things like Mandibuzz and can 1v1 Hydreigon and Hydreigon is more vulnerable to revenge killers. If you wanted to run the choice scarf set to outspeed Celebi and other speedy mons then you lose the ability to wallbreak and things like Blissey and P2 have a much easier time. Also, notice how these checks and counters are all pretty common, so for the most part, you don’t have to use something unviable just to take on Hydreigon.
So why is Hydreigon up for a suspect test? I still don’t really know as I don’t see what’s changed to make it better. You can go through all the old player of the week interviews where they talk about the health of the UU metagame and no one mentions Hydreigon until very recently. Seems to me that perhaps Hydreigon is not the problem, but maybe the power of the drops since the Crawdaunt suspect has created a power creep and Hydreigon is the fall guy. To me, something like Celebi is a way bigger threat to every playstyle imo. Then you’ve got Sylveon who is a huge threat with specs. Conkeldurr dismantles cores with Bulk up or a Choice band or even AV. Not saying that these are all broken (Celebi is to me though) but I think these new threats have pressured the UU meta hard by combining more bulk and more power than we as a community are used to. I think teambuilding is the most difficult it’s ever been as it’s impossible to handle everything, especially for balance which is the lifeblood of the tier. I think it’s a shame if Hydreigon gets banned as it’s not the problem. It’s a powerful and pretty well-rounded mon which rewards good teambuilding and gameplay while not being able to run through teams on its own. Hydreigon is not broken imo and therefore I will vote no ban.
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Good job getting reqs twice. I don't personally think any recent drops were what brought upon this suspect test. Although, the drops don't negatively effect Hydreigon either so I am not really sure why you think they did. Celebi running daz gleam etc doesn't make Hydreigon less effective because celebi still can't switch in and can easily switch and scout d gleam. But this part of the post is less important I just didn't not want to address it.
I understand you recognized that Hydrei could beat all of your supposed counters but its not true that 4mss means it can't beat all of them. If you didn't notice, both the Specs and the Superpower + Irontail sets can beat all of the pokemon you listed(Blissey does live 2 Specs Focus Blasts after Rocks but Blissey is also super easy to whittle and exploit). No one is arguing with you that it is possible to revenge kill Hydreigon, because you obviously can, but that was never the issue. Hydreigon gains pretty comfortable switch ins a lot of the time because of its great bulk, resistances, and immunity. Once Hydreigon is inside you are pretty screwed no matter what the set is. Ironically, due to Hydreigon being so difficult to check, its so simple to predict your opponent because they would be forced to switch into their check. For example, if Hydreigon switches into a CB krook EQ/chandelure shadow ball, no matter what set, you gain some sort of initiative. Specs or mixed can flash cannon/iron tail the fairy and scarf can U turn. You can pretty much guarantee the opponent makes the obvious play because the risk not to is not worth it almost all of the time. Edit: I understand that this can apply to almost every good pokemon but I think it especially does with hydreigon *_*
It has always been known that Hydreigon has no switch ins. In my opinion, the reason the suspect is happening now is this: the sylveon drop kicked Florges out of the map(rip btw) and at the start, everyone was using Specs because omg a fairy to use on offense!! xD n_n !!. This led people to try the Specs and All of attacker sets so Specs Sylveon gets no free switch in, which eventually led to people realizing Hydreigon was breaking the tier. Everyone knew of these sets when Florges was relevant but Florges was pretty easy to switch into so people didn't really care to run coverage(I'm not trying to say no one ran Specs/AoA, because some did, but way less than now). So basically Hydreigon has kind of always been busted but people just didn't take the initiative to run more of the broken sets like Specs and AoA(this includes me btw). I'm not going to argue your celebi point, because that is straight facts LOL but that is a topic for another day.
Hello. I'm keeping this short since there was a lot of good post before me. I've got to say that to my surprise i enjoyed this new metagame a lot. I was very on the fence before. I got the reqs and ended up using fun teams that i made before the suspect and yet i still got the reqs. I realise this is because Hydreigon had destroyed the viability of many pokemon and is too limiting when teambuilding. Not only when teambuilding but in practice i've always found that it got too much switchin opportunities and was putting too much pressure on the opposing team... its just too easy to take advantage in a battle when your Hydreigon outspeeds and tanks a lot and there is one mon (usually cleric Sylveon) to switch on it. It's not the only the reason why i believe it should be banned, simply put, i think this pokemon has just too much going for it. It's faster than other nukes, it's bulkier, it's more versatile, it's resistant to most of the best moves in the game, it lacks counters, it's harder to wear down, it's not pursuitable, it doesnt trigger contact... i could go on. It's true that each of its set has cons but let's not forget that Hydreigon still performs amazing with many set, so it's not like there is really a huge disadvantage to use one or other set. For example the scarf set is not the best set but it's still the best revenge killer, lol. So while i think it's not a very obvious ban i'm still gonna vote ban.
Nice post. Since you requested people elaborating on how their building was affected by Hydreigon for example one team I built for the Hydrei-less meta is a Crawdaunt/Gyara/HC Aero/Milotic team (Milotic even though I have 2 waters already because they cant check Entei). I tried building with this in Hydrei meta and it failed completely because Sylv was a requirement (because Gyara and Crawdaunt both invite Hydrei in) even though it was literally checking a single pokemon, and therefore I couldn't cover everything else that was a problem (mainly the grass and electric weaknesses).
Another was a NP Azelf/Pursuit M-Aero/Scarf Chandelure team where I chose not to give Azelf Dazzling Gleam (which was basically always solely for Hydrei afaik) and could run other coverage moves instead to wear down Chandelure's checks.
So I would agree with you that it's offense which Hydrei limits the building of most oppressively, I personally don't like Whims that much (and not really that amazing of a Hydrei check to begin with) and so it felt like Specs Sylv was the only option, which isnt really desirable and it creates problems of its own.
And I think it's this way because on offense Hydreigon is one of the main pokemon that checks a ton of pokemon that offense likes to use (or would like to if it didnt exist) like Crawdaunt, Krook and Gyara just to name a few, but not only does it have a fairly safe switchin to these common pokemon, it's an immediate offensive powerhouse as well, so youre required to run a dedicated check if you have any mon that invites it in, compared to other wallbreakers who do not get to switch in that much. Like Mamoswine is never a problem for offense because it can't really switch in to anything, and Suicune isn't really problematic for offense because it doesn't have much immediate power, but Hydrei has like.. the power of Mamo and the switch-in opportunities of Suicune. So the thought process of "where is my Hydrei switch-in" comes up a lot more than it does for Mamo/Crawdaunt/Chandelure. And Sylv can't fit on every offense team and it's annoying that it has to otherwise I've felt like I have to scrap the team. So yeah send away the hydrei
"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars / But in ourselves"
I spent a decent amount of time deciding that I was going to wait until I made a post. It was important for me to be sure of my decision prior to commenting in order to avoid another "on-the-fence" post. After some laddering and custom games with comrades, as well as utilizing Hydreigon in majors, I've come to a decision.
Say you have a Pokemon, we'll call it X.
Pokemon X has been a staple of the generation since its inception.
In comes Pokemon Y, which has multiple sets. These multiple sets can enhance every aspect of Pokemon X.
Pokemon X's abilities rise so high, that it's starting to do something it didn't do before - appear too centralized and appear consistently necessary on every team. Why would you use anything else, right?
Thus, due to one Pokemon, X is now considered overpowered and has been given a suspect. Pokemon Y is laughing in the corner cause of what its done.
I was never of the opinion that a Pokemon should be banned because there's something else in the tier that inflates its overall status. Hydreigon is literally the same Pokemon it always was, a multifaceted powerhouse that can fit on almost any mould. The sheer presence of Hydreigon causes people to play differently, lest they automatically lose if they make a misread. But that has been eternal, and is the reason why Hydreigon is S-class. What has changed for it? Celebi. For a moment, I would like for you to check out these Celebi sets:
Support Defensive.
Support Pivot.
Support Offensive.
Support with Healing Wish.
Support Calm Mind.
Nasty Plot Offensive.
Nasty Plot Baton Pass.
Nasty Plot LO.
Colbur Nasty Plot.
Colbur Nasty Pass.
Weakness Policy Pass.
Swords Dance Pass.
Swords Dance Offensive.
Choice Specs Pivot.
Choice Scarf Pivot.
Notice how every single one of those sets enhances Hydreigon. It could be a receiver for any of those sets, and is supported in every possible way by even the most left-field Celebi set. Take away Celebi, and Hydreigon loses its most powerful Ally. Ever notice how the best Nasty Pass teams generally have a Celebi+Hydrei combo? Slap a Tentacruel and AV Conk/ Standard Cobalion and all of a sudden you have a staple core that's been seen time and time again this UU Open and beyond. Normally, I would never put the focus from one Pokemon to another, but this is a case of mistaken identity and Hydreigon is going to take an unnecessary fall because Celebi is so versatile that not slapping it on a Hydreigon team is almost a crime against optimization.
Sylveon is another Pokemon that brought out Hydreigon's talents, but consider this: about two years ago, XY UU decided to suspect Hydreigon. Everyone in that suspect, myself included, decided that Hydreigon always has to sacrifice coverage in order to check what the team needs it to check. As soon as a set is even mildly revealed, it becomes that much easier to play around. Working around Hydreigon requires a good instinct, and that is true of every S-rank mon. If Hydreigon checks Sylveon, it potentially loses out on checking Empoleon, for instance. The user facing the Hydreigon, if they have any brain whatsoever, will learn what set Hydreigon is being used the second a smart U-turn isn't clicked or if LO recoil shows its face. The relationship to the team also provides a crazy amount of information as to what set you're using. The one Pokemon that obstructs that knowledge and causes pause is Celebi. Yes, Hydreigon is naturally centralizing. However, I argue that this aspect of Hydreigon is actually healthy for the meta. If you prepare for a Hydreigon, you prepare for almost every Dragon-type or Offensive Pivot in the tier. That is not a bad thing in the slightest. However, preparing for a +2 Scarf Hydreigon is farfetched to say the least. The fault of that, however, does not rest on Hydreigon.
I'm voting no-ban, and I'm making a clear indication that Celebi needs a suspect test.
I spent a decent amount of time deciding that I was going to wait until I made a post. It was important for me to be sure of my decision prior to commenting in order to avoid another "on-the-fence" post. After some laddering and custom games with comrades, as well as utilizing Hydreigon in majors, I've come to a decision.
Say you have a Pokemon, we'll call it X.
Pokemon X has been a staple of the generation since its inception.
In comes Pokemon Y, which has multiple sets. These multiple sets can enhance every aspect of Pokemon X.
Pokemon X's abilities rise so high, that it's starting to do something it didn't do before - appear too centralized and appear consistently necessary on every team. Why would you use anything else, right?
Thus, due to one Pokemon, X is now considered overpowered and has been given a suspect. Pokemon Y is laughing in the corner cause of what its done.
I was never of the opinion that a Pokemon should be banned because there's something else in the tier that inflates its overall status. Hydreigon is literally the same Pokemon it always was, a multifaceted powerhouse that can fit on almost any mould. The sheer presence of Hydreigon causes people to play differently, lest they automatically lose if they make a misread. But that has been eternal, and is the reason why Hydreigon is S-class. What has changed for it? Celebi. For a moment, I would like for you to check out these Celebi sets:
Support Defensive.
Support Pivot.
Support Offensive.
Support with Healing Wish.
Support Calm Mind.
Nasty Plot Offensive.
Nasty Plot Baton Pass.
Nasty Plot LO.
Colbur Nasty Plot.
Colbur Nasty Pass.
Weakness Policy Pass.
Swords Dance Pass.
Swords Dance Offensive.
Choice Specs Pivot.
Choice Scarf Pivot.
Notice how every single one of those sets enhances Hydreigon. It could be a receiver for any of those sets, and is supported in every possible way by even the most left-field Celebi set. Take away Celebi, and Hydreigon loses its most powerful Ally. Ever notice how the best Nasty Pass teams generally have a Celebi+Hydrei combo? Slap a Tentacruel and AV Conk/ Standard Cobalion and all of a sudden you have a staple core that's been seen time and time again this UU Open and beyond. Normally, I would never put the focus from one Pokemon to another, but this is a case of mistaken identity and Hydreigon is going to take an unnecessary fall because Celebi is so versatile that not slapping it on a Hydreigon team is almost a crime against optimization.
Sylveon is another Pokemon that brought out Hydreigon's talents, but consider this: about two years ago, XY UU decided to suspect Hydreigon. Everyone in that suspect, myself included, decided that Hydreigon always has to sacrifice coverage in order to check what the team needs it to check. As soon as a set is even mildly revealed, it becomes that much easier to play around. Working around Hydreigon requires a good instinct, and that is true of every S-rank mon. If Hydreigon checks Sylveon, it potentially loses out on checking Empoleon, for instance. The user facing the Hydreigon, if they have any brain whatsoever, will learn what set Hydreigon is being used the second a smart U-turn isn't clicked or if LO recoil shows its face. The relationship to the team also provides a crazy amount of information as to what set you're using. The one Pokemon that obstructs that knowledge and causes pause is Celebi. Yes, Hydreigon is naturally centralizing. However, I argue that this aspect of Hydreigon is actually healthy for the meta. If you prepare for a Hydreigon, you prepare for almost every Dragon-type or Offensive Pivot in the tier. That is not a bad thing in the slightest. However, preparing for a +2 Scarf Hydreigon is farfetched to say the least. The fault of that, however, does not rest on Hydreigon.
I'm voting no-ban, and I'm making a clear indication that Celebi needs a suspect test.
Your first point can be applied to almost any Pokemon and doesn't say anything as to why Hydreigon is broken or unhealthy for the metagame. I'm sure 90% of my offensive teams would be better if Cresselia wasn't in the tier, but instead I do things like run Taunt on Nidoqueen and Crobat so that my whole team doesn't fail completely against Cresselia. And no, Sylveon/Florges is not a requirement on every team, especially offense, just to switch into Hydreigon. On offense, it's reasonable to apply offensive pressure, and using a check that can pivot into Hydreigon (Conk, Empoleon, Whimsicott, Snorlax, Coba, Milotic...) and limit its switchins. At that point your question of "where's my Hydreigon switchin" will probably happen once, the same as if your offense team let in a Specs Sylveon against your Sceptile, or a CB Krookodile into your Metagross. And on balance, both Fairies great Pokemon even outside their ability to deal with "a single Pokemon" because they check other threats like Conk, Sceptile, Blastoise etc and provide cleric support that is hard to find elsewhere.
Your post and a lot of other pro-ban ones state that there are too many threats to cover in the current meta, but then turn around and say that Hydreigon is unhealthy partly because it checks too much and generates turns for itself by using its resistances and whatnot. Hydreigon is a great offensive check to stuff like Entei, Krookodile, Crawdaunt, Suicune, etc, but it's not a totally safe switch or isn't "invited in" as your post and other posts say. Getting Scald/Sacred Fire burned or Knocked Off puts a huge dent in Hydreigon's ability to put in work; mixed and Specs sets can no longer perform its role without a Life Orb/Specs or when it's burned, and Scarf can't get knocked off at any cost. And this is what I said earlier about applying offensive pressure to limit its switchins. Another example, an offensive team that I've posted here before and that's been around quite a bit by now: CB Conk, LO Hydreigon (4 attacks), offensive Tenta, SR LO Meta, HC Aero, Scarf Infernape. Here Hydreigon can only switch in against Metagross that goes for SR, and if this happens, I will likely have to sack something or attempt to predict around its moves, but after that it literally cannot come onto the field again safely. Here's another offense team I've posted and many people are using it in Majors: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-441006426 (replay is irrelevant, just look at the team). Again, Hydreigon only comes in on Metagross using SR, I have at least a pivot in Whimsicott that I can use, and any LO recoil accumulated is appreciated to sweep with Swampert. The team is a bit weak to Scarf Hydreigon, just like it's weak to Scarf Mienshao.
As for balance teams, while there are more Pokemon that Hydreigon that can come in on, there's also more the balance team can do to keep it in check. Take a look at three of the latest successful balance RMTs. There's Hogg's team, which is arguably the weakest of the three to Hydreigon, as it can switch in relatively safely on Suicune and Forry, but still has a hard check/counter and a revenge killer. There's my own team which in my humble opinion covers Hydreigon pretty well with SDef Conk + Florges + Snorlax (yes this core exists to do many many things besides just checking Hydreigon!), Protect Bronzong to scout a bit, and Aero to revenge kill if Hydreigon somehow breaks through all three. On Pearl's team, Hydreigon literally can't switch into anything safely besides an Alomomola going for a Wish, which can then scout with Protect or a hard switch to Blissey or Aggron, AND he's got a Celebi and Crobat to revenge kill. The point is, Hydreigon can theoretically break through all of its checks on these teams, but it needs the right set and exactly right predictions, because one wrong prediction will mean Hydreigon is at -2 SpAtk, -1 Atk/Def, or revealed Iron Tail too early. At that point to me if Hydreigon still manages to beat all its checks while still switching into the field without being crippled by status or knock off, then that's less of Hydreigon being broken and more of an excellently played wallbreaker.
Of course, I'm not disagreeing with the fact that Hydreigon is the best Pokemon in the tier and that it indeed is a wallbreaker that can find more opportunities than most to get into the field. However, I think that there are plenty of available ways to play around it, cover it with common and successful balance cores, or limit it as you would with any wallbreaker if you're playing offense. It's not Alakazam where it outspeeds destroys 95% of the tier with the same three moves and uses the 4th move to further fuck over whatever it wants to. It's not Salamence which can use its typing and ability to win the game in one turn, or make you try to guess which of the 2 completely different offensive sets it could be. I just simply think that there is an appropriate amount of counterplay available no matter which playstyle you use.
To expand on my point about limiting Hydreigon's kills with offense and people overstating its ability to get into the field safely, here are some more games with Hydreigon. It wasn't my intention in my previous post to toot my own horn by providing only replays and teams from myself. I chose DrReuniclus's UU major games because most of them featured a Hydreigon on one or both sides, and most were offense v offense. I haven't left out any games that involved a Hydreigon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-196182 in theory: Hydreigon has a free switchin opportunity against SR Gligar, forces out Gligar, Haxorus, and Heliolisk, and 2HKOs everything with Dark Pulse except possibly Empoleon. In practice: Hydreigon comes in after a boom to pick off a 24% Gligar, is forced out, then comes in to revenge kill a weakened Empoleon before being checked by Abomasnow.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-444087613 DrReuniclus's LO Hydreigon does nothing as it has no opportunities to come in. He weakens the opposing scarf Hydreigon early game and is able to deal with it easily later, though it was somewhat poorly played by his opponent
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-195512 DrReuniclus's LO Hydreigon has "safe" switchins on at least two Pokemon (Rotom and Krook), but his opponent plays well to prevent it from getting free hits early game. It ends up doing nothing but a getting decent hit on Empoleon before dying to Ice Beam.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-195511 two Hydreigons and 2 bulky offenses. Slurmz essentially trades his Specs (I assume) Hydreigon for Drreuni's Mega Blastoise turn 1. Drreuni's own LO Hydreigon again only manages to get a good hit off on Empoleon before dying to ice beam (doubt anyone would argue ib crit prevented Hydreigon from doing anything else the rest of the game)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-443082844 There is a defensive pert and Defog Gligar for Hydreigon to come in on. Early game, his opponent pivots into SDef escav and forces it out, then later sacks his escav to revenge kill Hydreigon. So Hydreigon killed an Escavalier.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-440153609 there's a crawdaunt, an Entei, a Forretress AND a SR Celebi vs a LO roost Hydreigon. Hydreigon avoids a burn from Entei and kills aero. Not wanting to risk his team getting swept by either possible lucario variant with dark coverage, DrReuni goes for damage and trades his Hydra to weaken it. A large amount of work done by a Hydreigon (just short of two kills) against a team that was terribly weak to it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-440140075 Matchup vs balance. Hydreigon gets in vs Aggron...and misses iron tail :(. However, being iron tail + roost meant that Drreuni couldn't risk coming in against the Crawdaunt or the Tentacruel. Nonetheless, an unfortunate miss by Drreuni who played well to get Sylveon weakened and Hydreigon in that position. Snorlax also checked Hydreigon.
All in all, I hope these replays show that despite its great typing and bulk, Hydreigon doesn't have unlimited opportunities to get onto the field, especially against bulky offense like the first five replays showed. And even when it does get in, the plan is the usual plan against wallbreakers given a free switch: sack or use a pivot, and force out or revenge kill. In that last replay, I believe this is a case of what I mentioned in my first post: a very well played wallbreaker that was put into a great position to get rid of a check, in order to let its teammate (conk) sweep. (My argument has nothing to do with iron tails accuracy). I am interested to see if anyone thinks that Hydreigon showed itself as unhealthy or broken in that game due to it being able to break past its main check on that team.
Sorry for the double post, felt I had enough to say that it was warranted though.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-196182 in theory: Hydreigon has a free switchin opportunity against SR Gligar, forces out Gligar, Haxorus, and Heliolisk, and 2HKOs everything with Dark Pulse except possibly Empoleon. In practice: Hydreigon comes in after a boom to pick off a 24% Gligar, is forced out, then comes in to revenge kill a weakened Empoleon before being checked by Abomasnow.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-444087613 DrReuniclus's LO Hydreigon does nothing as it has no opportunities to come in. He weakens the opposing scarf Hydreigon early game and is able to deal with it easily later, though it was somewhat poorly played by his opponent
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-195512 DrReuniclus's LO Hydreigon has "safe" switchins on at least two Pokemon (Rotom and Krook), but his opponent plays well to prevent it from getting free hits early game. It ends up doing nothing but a getting decent hit on Empoleon before dying to Ice Beam.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-195511 two Hydreigons and 2 bulky offenses. Slurmz essentially trades his Specs (I assume) Hydreigon for Drreuni's Mega Blastoise turn 1. Drreuni's own LO Hydreigon again only manages to get a good hit off on Empoleon before dying to ice beam (doubt anyone would argue ib crit prevented Hydreigon from doing anything else the rest of the game)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-443082844 There is a defensive pert and Defog Gligar for Hydreigon to come in on. Early game, his opponent pivots into SDef escav and forces it out, then later sacks his escav to revenge kill Hydreigon. So Hydreigon killed an Escavalier.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-440153609 there's a crawdaunt, an Entei, a Forretress AND a SR Celebi vs a LO roost Hydreigon. Hydreigon avoids a burn from Entei and kills aero. Not wanting to risk his team getting swept by either possible lucario variant with dark coverage, DrReuni goes for damage and trades his Hydra to weaken it. A large amount of work done by a Hydreigon (just short of two kills) against a team that was terribly weak to it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-440140075 Matchup vs balance. Hydreigon gets in vs Aggron...and misses iron tail :(. However, being iron tail + roost meant that Drreuni couldn't risk coming in against the Crawdaunt or the Tentacruel. Nonetheless, an unfortunate miss by Drreuni who played well to get Sylveon weakened and Hydreigon in that position. Snorlax also checked Hydreigon.
All in all, I hope these replays show that despite its great typing and bulk, Hydreigon doesn't have unlimited opportunities to get onto the field, especially against bulky offense like the first five replays showed. And even when it does get in, the plan is the usual plan against wallbreakers given a free switch: sack or use a pivot, and force out or revenge kill. In that last replay, I believe this is a case of what I mentioned in my first post: a very well played wallbreaker that was put into a great position to get rid of a check, in order to let its teammate (conk) sweep. (My argument has nothing to do with iron tails accuracy). I am interested to see if anyone thinks that Hydreigon showed itself as unhealthy or broken in that game due to it being able to break past its main check on that team.
Sorry for the double post, felt I had enough to say that it was warranted though.
I was thinking with myself: “What does similar threatening as Hydreigon?” And I realized that the usual options to check Hydreigon are similar to the Noivern ones. However, what makes Hydreigon preferable over Noivern:
- Higher stats, with the exception of speed;
- More resists, recieves less stealth rocks punishment;
- More damage comparing specs sets;
- Iron Tail/ Flash cannon; [Although these really depend on the team and I think it’s a lot safer to run a fairy/ice/rock check instead]
- U-turn, Roost and Taunt.
On the other hand, it is not supposed to defeat Conkeldurr, doesn’t have access to switcheroo and has 5 weaknesses (Bug, Dragon,Fairy, Fighting, Ice) compared to 4 (Dragon, Fairy,Ice, Rock) from Noivern. With this stated, I wanted to comment 2 things:
1. I have seen some posts where people say Hydreigon is not overpowered or overcentralizing to deserve a ban. Why does it seem beatable? well it’s because there are 3 majorly used sets:
Choice Scarf – which is beaten by priority and scouting; (and Blissey)
Life Orb – which is beaten with speed and priority;
Choice specs – which is beaten with speed, priority and scouting.
Running 2 out of those 3 is common sense, not a limit imposed into UU teambuilding. So I believe its healthier to have this Pokémon encouraging players to run fast Pokémon, scouters and priority users than just removing it in a hope the current fairy “overusage” drops.
2. I have seen some posts where people say the speed tier Hydreigon fits prevents it from being good enough for their teams. Well this comparison shows something interesting: even when players do have a faster option in the tier, that can deal some pretty good damage, it seems not enough for UU teams aswell. I think either Hydreigon is not getting beaten only for being slow, or players added hydreigon on the spot of their teams without considering Noivern would do the job just because it’s left in the limbo of BL2.
>My opinion: (I don’t have the reqs)
Hydreigon should stay in UU.
>just a minor comment:
I agree with King UU, celebi does improve hydreigon’s abilities overall. However, I believe discussing celebi will lead us to the same old discussion of Baton Pass: while the mon itself is not broken, it has one broken move. And having synergies is just part of Pokémon.
- Higher stats, with the exception of speed;
- More resists, recieves less stealth rocks punishment;
- More damage comparing specs sets;
- Iron Tail/ Flash cannon; [Although these really depend on the team and I think it’s a lot safer to run a fairy/ice/rock check instead]
- U-turn, Roost and Taunt.
On the other hand, it is not supposed to defeat Conkeldurr, doesn’t have access to switcheroo and has 5 weaknesses (Bug, Dragon,Fairy, Fighting, Ice) compared to 4 (Dragon, Fairy,Ice, Rock) from Noivern. With this stated, I wanted to comment 2 things:
1. I have seen some posts where people say Hydreigon is not overpowered or overcentralizing to deserve a ban. Why does it seem beatable? well it’s because there are 3 majorly used sets:
Choice Scarf – which is beaten by priority and scouting; (and Blissey)
Life Orb – which is beaten with speed and priority;
Choice specs – which is beaten with speed, priority and scouting.
Running 2 out of those 3 is common sense, not a limit imposed into UU teambuilding. So I believe its healthier to have this Pokémon encouraging players to run fast Pokémon, scouters and priority users than just removing it in a hope the current fairy “overusage” drops.
2. I have seen some posts where people say the speed tier Hydreigon fits prevents it from being good enough for their teams. Well this comparison shows something interesting: even when players do have a faster option in the tier, that can deal some pretty good damage, it seems not enough for UU teams aswell. I think either Hydreigon is not getting beaten only for being slow, or players added hydreigon on the spot of their teams without considering Noivern would do the job just because it’s left in the limbo of BL2.
>My opinion: (I don’t have the reqs)
Hydreigon should stay in UU.
>just a minor comment:
I agree with King UU, celebi does improve hydreigon’s abilities overall. However, I believe discussing celebi will lead us to the same old discussion of Baton Pass: while the mon itself is not broken, it has one broken move. And having synergies is just part of Pokémon.
It's not that Celebi has one broken move, it's that, like Salamence, it has completely different answers based on its sets, and packing the wrong answer to a given set (like Blissey vs SD Pass) means you get swept almost instantly. Well, maybe not against Defensive Rocker or Perish Song, but you know what I mean.
Also, you left out Hydreigon's Taunt Roost set which is one of the major reasons it's being suspected.
Also, you left out Hydreigon's Taunt Roost set which is one of the major reasons it's being suspected.
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