No this really shouldn't be allowed on any ladder. I think a calculation earlier showed specs Ogre could barely break Octillerys subs at +6 so anything without Specs will really struggle against it. Add in Toxic Spikes and even in ubers this thing is just stupid. Its detrimental to a competitive game so when it is banned it should be banned from every ladder.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
- Start date
- Status
No this really shouldn't be allowed on any ladder. I think a calculation earlier showed specs Ogre could barely break Octillerys subs at +6 so anything without Specs will really struggle against it. Add in Toxic Spikes and even in ubers this thing is just stupid. Its detrimental to a competitive game so when it is banned it should be banned from every ladder.
Yeah Inconsistent is more upon the order of double team- luck based shit.
If say, weather abilities, were to be banned they would probably still be allowed in Ubers. They would be banned for just being too strong, not being luck based and nearly unbeatable (outside of overspecialization and luck).
If say, weather abilities, were to be banned they would probably still be allowed in Ubers. They would be banned for just being too strong, not being luck based and nearly unbeatable (outside of overspecialization and luck).
Are we emulating the cartridges or not? If we aren't, I could really care less about what happens because it's all just a made up game that doesn't mean anything.
If we are going to emulate the games directly, all pokemon that are broken have to be completely banned. There is no way to ban abilities in the carts.
Also, why do we have to test on the PO servers, when we have our own emulator?
If we are going to emulate the games directly, all pokemon that are broken have to be completely banned. There is no way to ban abilities in the carts.
Also, why do we have to test on the PO servers, when we have our own emulator?
There is no way to have our Pokemon ban list on the carts either. Our system works as if the simulator is a judge that checks to see if your team is not banned by the ban list, be it by move, ability, or pokemon.
And yes, we are emulating the cartridges.
Uh, yes, we can ban abilities in the carts by disallowing their use, like a Pokémon. Every Inconsistent carrier has a different ability. It's stupid to disallow banning moves just because you can't do it to every ability. We're not robots who can't handle banning an ability when another ability can't be banned; otherwise, the Uber Characteristic method of banning Pokémon would have been fine.
The only other interpretation I see for this is that you now have to worry about whether the Pokémon that you catch has a banned ability or not. We're already simulating everything that's remotely possible without hacking no matter how long it would actually take, so I don't even see the problem with this.
That is again wrong. While it's true that a large portion of Jirachi have a Choice Scarf, and while it's true that almost every Jirachi has Iron Head, the fact is spamming Iron Head for a flinch is not the dominant way to use Jirachi (certainly not the 99% you claim), and it never will be. Again, when the odds are around 1% that Jirachi will get through ONE counter (and that's even assuming the Heatran/Magnezone doesn't have Leftovers), that's VERY different from the very significant probabilities of Octillery getting the right boosts. And Heatran and Magnezone aren't even the only ways to check Jirachi; many other Steel-types can do the same. Even against Lucario it's a double KO at best for Jirachi.
Frankly I don't think Inconsistent is broken. The mons that have it aren't bulky enough; it's not that hard to make it difficult for Inconsistent users to come in if you build your team with even the slightest consideration and play with the knowledge that they're there. Then, if they do get in, it's unlikely that they'll manage to get enough boosts early on to do serious damage to your team to make it worth the games in which they do very little.
It's true with Inconsistent, there doesn't seem to be a way you can be 100% guaranteed to beat it (in the same way that Magneton could almost flawlessly counter Skarmory in Generation III), but that goes with lots of things.
If we're not going down the "ban it because of evasion clause" route, I think we should go down the same route as we do with everything else that is broken, (i.e. nominate it, test it some more, discuss and debate, vote on it, etc.). There is the obvious question of "Where do we draw the line when banning abilities?", but this can be avoided if Inconsistent fits the criteria to be banned through the evasion clause, whatever they are.
I see the similarities with the Jirachi example, but we're talking about such minute probablities here. I mean, with Inconsistent, you'll be, on average, at +1 evasion after an average of 3.5 turns (if my maths is correct), and you'll raise your evasion by one stage on average every 7 turns, but like how much damage does Iron Head do to Magneton and Magnezone? Magneton has a sky-high Defense stat now, and Magnezone might heal most of Iron Head's damage off through Leftovers.
If we're not going down the "ban it because of evasion clause" route, I think we should go down the same route as we do with everything else that is broken, (i.e. nominate it, test it some more, discuss and debate, vote on it, etc.). There is the obvious question of "Where do we draw the line when banning abilities?", but this can be avoided if Inconsistent fits the criteria to be banned through the evasion clause, whatever they are.
I see the similarities with the Jirachi example, but we're talking about such minute probablities here. I mean, with Inconsistent, you'll be, on average, at +1 evasion after an average of 3.5 turns (if my maths is correct), and you'll raise your evasion by one stage on average every 7 turns, but like how much damage does Iron Head do to Magneton and Magnezone? Magneton has a sky-high Defense stat now, and Magnezone might heal most of Iron Head's damage off through Leftovers.
True. I made that point in another thread too, and people started saying things about Inconsistent, you just sit there getting stat boosts, whilst using Acupressure you leave yourself far more open, or something along those lines. :D
It didn't really answer my question, but just so you know what to expect!
i dont understand people who say dont ban abilities ban the pokemon that makes no sence i always got a soft spot for politoed since gen 2 and if drizzletoad gets banned why in gods name can't i use my bulky water absorb politoed that i got since the 3rd gen wich isnt even near OU pokemons same with shadow taggers and inconsistency pokemon so people prefer baning a pokemon like politoed who has been with us since gen 2 just because thay dont want an ability ban? i mean that is just wrong
Because you have to waste a turn using it and take a hit, while with Inconsistent you can just Protect, hope you can get the right boost and switch out if not. Hell, I've (ab)used slow U-Turns from Scizor to get Octi in safely and auto-grab 2 boosts.
Are you sure you actually played against or with Octillery?
Plooper, Ice-Eyes meant that since Acupressure can also raise Evasion, why isin't it getting banned under Evasion Clause when people keep saying to ban Inconsistent under it. And RBG said that the Evasion Clause bans moves that raise Evasion only, not abilitys or moves like Acupressure.
We probably won't ban Inconsistent under Evasion Clause, it will have its own clause. We won't ban it because it is broken, but we will ban it because it is detrimental to the metagame (aka the reason why we banned OHKOs and Evasion). Accupressure cannot be abused so easily, so there is no reason to ban it because it has no negative effects to the metagame.
Well, 14 pokémon get Minimize, 8 get Inconsistent.
Not really.
http://91.121.73.228/Dream World/385.html
http://91.121.73.228/Dream World Ubers/385.html
http://91.121.73.228/Wifi/385.html
http://91.121.73.228/Wifi Ubers/385.html
http://91.121.73.228/Past Stats/november-2010/Dream World/385.html
http://91.121.73.228/Past Stats/november-2010/Dream World Ubers/385.html
http://91.121.73.228/Past Stats/november-2010/Wifi/385.html
http://91.121.73.228/Past Stats/november-2010/Wifi Ubers/385.html
http://91.121.73.228/Past Stats/october-2010/Dream World Ubers/385.html
http://91.121.73.228/Past Stats/october-2010/Dream World/385.html
http://91.121.73.228/Past Stats/october-2010/Wifi/385.html
2-6% usage.
Also, some pokémon may get through their counters/checks with a Critical Hit; CHs have a 6.25% chance of ocurring, Jirachi beating Zone/Heatran has only 1%.
Fewer Pokémon having it means that it's actually possible to look at each case in depth and respectively ban the Pokémon if needs be. On the contrary, we couldn't do that with Double Team for way too many Pokémon had it and therefore banning them all would be ridiculous which is partially why it is exceptional. When something is broken, you don't ban part of that brokenness to weaken it and make him usable, you simply ban the Pokémon. Why wouldn't it be the same for Octillery? Plus, Inconsistent isn't as strong as you say it is; the Pokémons that get it are mediocre and wouldn't benefit so much from that ability that it would make them broken.
@ Above Way more than that get Double Team.
Yes, but Minimize got banned along with it, even if it has such a limited distribution, almost alike Inconsistent's. So, this argument don't hold much water, in my opinion.
Unless, of course, you believe we should test each Minimize user separately.
We do if possible. See Soul Dew and GSC Misdreavus.
In this case, Inconsistent is clearly what pushes Octillery (and other Inconsistent abusers) over the edge.
Their effects are the same except Minimize raises 2 stages and Double Team 1; they theoretically are the same move with different names and different level of raise.
Soul Dew is an item, and therefore is not part of the Pokémon.
Wait, but didn't you just say that fewer pokémon learning it means we can look at each case individually?
No. While gameplay-wise it is an item, it's intended to be used by Latis and its effect affects the metagame as much as Latis' base stats do.
Yes, but their effect being nearly the same, it would be like adding 8 more Pokémons to the crowd that learns Double Team.
It is still an Item. It may affect Latias/Latios only, but any Pokémon can carry it. It is simply an item Latias can choose to have just like choice scarf; it's not part of the Pokémon.
Sheesh, you guys take things too literally. Usually, by that I mean, a lot of times, Jirachi will use iron head to flinch hax. I'm not saying there aren't other sets that it will use, because it is a very capable pokemon even when using a different set. And I'm not sure if I read the right statistics, but those links said that the probability of facing an iron head using jirachi is 70% - 75%, except in uber tier.
I'm not for banning jirachi, nor I'm for banning inconsistent (maybe except for smeargle since it can baton pass those stat changes). The IRON HEAD jirachi relies a lot on luck, WHEN NOT MET BY A SURE-FIRE COUNTER (which aren't that many) the same way inconsistent relies a lot on luck, WHEN NOT MET BY A COUNTER. The only difference is that we are used to one strategy and the other one is quite new, so useful counters are still object of discussion (like unaware pokemon, ability nullifying moves, evasion reduction skills, croagunk, machamp).
The problem with that idea is that it's optional for the Latis to use and if it were banned for being broken, they have a whole host of options for other items to use. Even if the "intention" is there, it isn't an innate part of the Pokemon itself and removing it allows you to use something else.
Iron head jirachi has far more checks than inconsistent abusers. It also has a 40% chance of failing in its hax. Inconsistent, on the other hand, operates over a large number of turns and thus averages out to a net positive boost in every stat. Even if a - stat occurs after a number of turns, it is usually more than compensated for in a boost to other stats. It's chance of a total failure is far smaller than the chance of Jirachi's flinchhax failing.
- Status