I realise I'm a bit late to the party but I got the chance to jump online for a few hour yesterday so here's my thoughts on the 'suspects' thus far.
Shaymin-S: Ugh, I find it very difficult to motivate myself to play in a metagame where this little shit exists. The list of Pokemon that can a) switch into Seed Flare and b) outspeed or survive the incoming attack after accounting for the SpD drop is ludicrously small. And even then, you need to consider the threat of the SubSeed set. And even if you pack a good counter and scout the set well, there's always the chance the Skymin player will just shrug his shoulders and think 'may as well just try my luck' and flinch you to death. Shaymin-S has no redeeming factors in this metagame, it just makes the whole game notably less enjoyable.
I have to agree. I actually find it similar to Inconsistent. You can beat it easily enough, but then there are those times when it flinches you 8 times in a row (yes that has happened to me) and you die. Then you bring in another pokemon to kill/counter it. It gets 3 consecutive Sp Def drops and kills you. The problem here is that it gets lucky with flinch and stat-lowering, thanks to Serene Grace. The difference between it and Kiss/Rachi is that they have lower attacking stats and speed, which allows it to flinch more and KO more easily. I it should be banned because it can beat anything in the metagame by simply being lucky.
Darkrai: I've came up against surprisingly few Darkrai considering how good it looks on paper. Normally when I do encounter it, it puts something to sleep and damages a Pokemon or two before going down. I''ll need to face a few more of them before I say anything definite.
I don't know about Darkrai. On the one hand, it basically sleeps a pokemon and dies (when I face it, anyway). But in this Gen, sleep is similar to death. With a pokemon that is guaranteed to "kill" something, it's tough to say. Won't sweep a team, but the fact that it shuts down a pokemon no matter what is somewhat disturbing.
Manaphy: Incredibly good Pokemon, both in and out of Rain. It's skating the line between 'top tier OU threat' and 'probably uber' so I wouldn't like to say at the moment. A lot is being made of how threatening it is in Rain, but it should be noted that if you want to use Manaphy in Rain you have to bring Politoed along for the ride too which not only doubles up on weaknesses but forces you to adapt an entirely different playstyle and begs the question 'are Politoed + Manaphy teams really all that?' I never had huge problems with them whilst using my Sandstorm team (granted I had CBTar to Pursuit Politoed hehe). I view Manaphy as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for any Rain player that manages to play smartly and win the 'weather-war.'
A lot is being made of Tail Glow's 'OMG +3!' powers but you need to put it into perspective and note that that produces 747 SpA for Timid Manaphy after a boost. Swords Dance Garchomp hits 718 Atk, NP Lucario hits 722, Jolly Doryuuzu hits 738. The +3 isn't the important thing - what's important is the number that you land at after using it and 747 is impressive but it isn't exactly out of proportion with other threats. He isn't that easy to revenge kill to be fair but this metagame is dominated by hard hitting Pokemon with higher than 100 base Spe (Randorosu, Garchomp, Terakion, Latios, Volotoros, Skymin, Deoxys-A) not to mention all the Pokemon that force him into deadly speed ties (Zapdos, Celebi, Shaymin-L). I think we've been a bit quick to condemn Manaphy, I would like to see him given more of a chance.
I think Manaphy should be banned, because there are only two ways to guarantee that you'll beat it. Kill Politoed and set up your own weather, or have all your pokemon able to kill it to avoid having to switch. The former is not plausible because it basically causes you use a pokemon that may not benefit your team at all, simply to beat one pokemon. The latter is not plausible because the pokemon that most benefits your team and will best help your strategy may not fit that description. Manaphy hasn't been any trouble for me personally, but I still believe in a ban for it.
Politoed: I've found Rain to be a lot weaker than Sand, thanks to the fact that Choice Band Tyranitar can come in on Politoed and Pursuit it (72% - 85% vs 252/0) or Stone Edge it (90% - 107% vs the same Toed). Even when I wasn't using Sand, I just randomly slapped Sunny Day on one of my support Pokemon's filler moveslots and forced a tonne of ragequits against opponents who saw that I didn't have Ttar/Hippo/Ninetales/Aboma and thought they could sacrifice Toed. I hated Rain in 4th Gen as much as anybody and was sure that it would be broken as hell in this generation but I'm finding it surprisingly manageable. Still, there has been occassions where I never got momentum in my favor and just got steamrollered but I could say the same thing has happened to me against offensive SS teams or whatever.
Rain is manageable, but it can be tough to handle. I don't necessarily think we should ban rain itself just yet. Let's see how it does as the metagame progresses.
Deoxys-A: Not sure yet, I've had occassions where it absolutely kicked my ass, but I've also had occassions where it got off one resisted attack and then died to priority or Pursuit. Gimme more time on this one.
Although nothing can switch into Deoxys-A, it can really only deal with offensive pokemon. Almost any defensive pokemon can take a hit and KO it. And most teams do have at least one pokemon which can do that already. The only teams I've seen it act broken against were HO teams. I say that Deoxys-A is not broken.
Doryuuzu: A good Pokemon but overated to hell and should never have even been mentioned as a suspect. I find Terakion much more threatening.
I cannot agree more. Good prediction is all it takes to kill Doryuuzu. If you are obviously in a bad position when it comes in, attack. It'll Swords Dance as it predicts your switch, and you'll put it into easy revenge-kill range. If you care in a neutral position when it comes in, then switch out to something to take the hit, then kill it as it attacks or boosts. While this doesn't apply to every situation, a team doesn't have to devote a slot to beating Dory, or use un-viable pokemon. Dory doesn't mean an automatic win when it comes into play. Doryuuzu is good, but is too easily dealt with for a ban, imo. It has to have very specific circumstances to 6-0 a team, which you can prevent from being given to it in the first place. I laugh at the idea of Doryuuzu being broken.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
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I am sorry, but I really do not like this line of thinking. We are not in Gen IV anymore and what was considered uber then should not apply now. The entire metagame has gotten more powerful in general and it seems like many people in this thread are talking as though we need to ban everything that is more powerful than everything that was in standard OU from Gen IV. Anyway, here are my thoughts on some of the suspects that have been discussed in this thread now that I have had a chance to play more:
Weather (inducers)- Obviously rain and sand are very good and many people in this thread have attested that sun and hail are also very viable. I personally used a hail team with pretty solid success. The viability of all the weathers, in my opinion, creates a nice balancing effect on the metagame. I think most of the opposition to weather comes from a resistance to change from previous generations and I am failing to see why this emphasis on weather is such a bad thing when there are 4 viable weathers to choose from. I would not vote to ban any of the inducers.
Doryuuzu- In my opinion, people have been greatly over-exaggerating how hard this is to stop. Any of the following pokemon (barring luck like crits or flinches) can switch into any attack doryuuzu uses and kill it 100% of the time (assuming @ balloon: SD, EQ, RS, XS).
Scarf Golduck (cloud nine)
Scarf Politoed
Weezing
Heracross
Flygon
Rotom W
Roopushin
Shibirudon
Gligar/Gliscor
Breloom
Landlos
Virizion
pretty much all bulky waters
This is also ignoring the fact that there are many many other pokemon that can beat it by using the balloon item or if it does not have the item itself. I do realize that dory is a very powerful, top-tier pokemon and that having counters =/= "not uber," but when this many pokemon can easily beat it, I would be very skeptical of banning it.
Inconsistent- I would vote to ban octillery because it is too easy for it to stall stuff out and gain enough boosts to basically become unstoppable. I have not played against enough Bibarel, Glalie, or smeargle to have any opinion on them. I would like to note that I am very much against banning the ability itself because I believe this sets a very bad precedent in determining "brokeness" (i.e. Should we ban tail glow and not manaphy? What about rest? Manaphy wouldn't be broken without those!).
Manaphy- I think this pokemon's excellent typing, bulk, access to tail glow, and rest without sleep in the rain makes it far better than most of the pokemon in the metagame and I would likely vote to ban this.
Shaymin-S- In my opinion, this is the most "broken" (whatever that is supposed to mean now) pokemon that is currently allowed. I ran a team that had both ice beam blissey and special defense skarmory and this still caused huge problems for me. The fact that most of its "counters" are not really counters after factoring air slash's flinch chance and seed flare's special defense drop really puts this over the edge in my opinion.
Darkrai- I am kind of on the fence about this one, because it does suffer from "4 moveslot syndrome" but I think it's combination of speed, power, and reasonable bulk while having that excellent sleep move make it uber.
Deoxys- I definitely haven't faced enough Defense or Normal forms to have an opinion on them. Speed form has some nice checks with the improved magic coat and magic mirror so at least for now, I would not support banning it. Attack form, I believe, has too much speed and power to be included in the metagame and I would support a ban.
Well, those are my thoughts, feel free to attack (or agree with!) them as you wish.
I'll be honest, the Gen 5 suspect process is already giving me a sense of deja vu. We've had a working simulator for months, our own server for weeks, and it's clear from reading this thread that there are obvious ubers in OU currently (Shaymin-S, Deoxys-A, Darkrai, Inconsistent) who are almost bound to be banned. WHY are we waiting another 3 weeks to do so?! I can't be the only one who wants to test things like Manaphy and Doryuuzu in a settled metagame where I don't have to worry about a monster with 450+ in each attack stat rampaging through my team with no setup, or an ability that turns the game into a coin flip.
I think Manaphy is far more broken than any of the ones you listed.
I think it's clear from reading this thread that they're not obvious Ubers, if anything.
Or do you mean like how Snover was obviously broken in Generation IV UU? :D
I have forgone making arguments for them and have simply stated my opinions.
Basically. Most people on here are too stubborn to be reasoned with or to change their opinions. I completely agree with you, except I'm going with yes on Deo-A and Maybe on Skymin.
I was gonna reply to Lee's post part about Manaphy when I did read it, but SJCrew said almost everythng I was gonna say.
Also, you have to keep in mind that using Politoed+Manaphy has also synergy advantages, as, in rain, Manaphy can defeat both Blissey and Nattorei, as well as fellow water-types, cleaning the way to stuff like Kingdra, Ludicolo, Hurricane Nite, Specs Politoed itself, etc. All of these are usually stopped by the same Blissey and Nattorei, so Manaphy acts as the main wall breaker on rain teams.
While this is just a random characteristic that doesn't instantly makes Manaphy broken, it is one more to add to the list when people think about Manaphy's power in the metagame.
politoed is fine, rain isn't dominant and can be countered or removed. poli is a below average mon by itself
darkrai is basically "get 2 kills if dark void doesnt miss", id get rid of it
skymin is the worst of the bunch, remove it for all the reasons lee said
deoxys-a is the second worst to fight, especially if you don't know whether it has sash or life orb. LO Extremespeeds can do a lot of damage and there really is no defense to it, other than pursuit spiritomb
i havent had any trouble with manaphy: it cant boost its speed, it doesnt boost its defenses, it can only carry 2 attacks, etc make it easy enough to beat down.
so yeah, i think rain is vastly overrated, but all the other threats are scary as shit
You're the one who "ignited" this argument in the first place. If you want this to end, I think you know what to do.
I am not changing my sig.
Anyway,
Deoxys-A-Test more
Shaymin-S-Ban
Manaphy-Ban
Doryuzuu- Test more
Politoed- Test more
no "OMG TAIL GLOW +3"? you seriuos?
are you considering that tail glow + rain / STAB is almost like an instant +6?
+3 = stat * 5/2
multiply with the STAB or the rain (* 3/2) and you get * 15/4, almost like +6 (* 8/2).
come on. it was frightening without drizzle in OU. how can you say that politoed is a weakness? Manaphy is able to get instant +6 and you can't stop the rain without another weather changer. i don't want a tyranitar in each team.
+3 Timid manaphy's surf under infinite rain is 299*1.5*1.5*2.5*90 = 151368.75
+2 Jolly garchomp's outrage is 359*1.5*2*120 = 129240
and don't forger that you are free to switch or change attack after surf (unlike outrage).
add another tail glow and you get +6 (adding the rain it's like a +10... LOL), not just +4 like swords dance. and please, don't compare lucario to manaphy. manaphy has rest + status heal and also a better type and 100/100/100
are you considering that tail glow + rain / STAB is almost like an instant +6?
+3 = stat * 5/2
multiply with the STAB or the rain (* 3/2) and you get * 15/4, almost like +6 (* 8/2).
come on. it was frightening without drizzle in OU. how can you say that politoed is a weakness? Manaphy is able to get instant +6 and you can't stop the rain without another weather changer. i don't want a tyranitar in each team.
+3 Timid manaphy's surf under infinite rain is 299*1.5*1.5*2.5*90 = 151368.75
+2 Jolly garchomp's outrage is 359*1.5*2*120 = 129240
and don't forger that you are free to switch or change attack after surf (unlike outrage).
add another tail glow and you get +6 (adding the rain it's like a +10... LOL), not just +4 like swords dance. and please, don't compare lucario to manaphy. manaphy has rest + status heal and also a better type and 100/100/100
You see a doryuuzu, you switch in, you kill with aqua jet or force a switch.
Azumarill takes a nonboosted eq well enough, does it not?
This is why I was wondering.
I get what you're saying, but your argument really reeks of hype without substance and use of absolutes. The person you referenced did sort of make a mistake, though; 1120 effective SpA in the rain after one boost is pretty beastly. That said, the conventional strategy of pounding at it with faster Pokémon seems to work well.
The problem I have found with tail glow Manaphy is its relative lack of bulk. I seem to have no problem promptly KOing while it's getting set up and rarely does it leave much of a dent in my team. What I have found to be the true problem is Calm Mind Manaphy, who once set up is extremely more difficult to take down than the generally less bulky tail glow versions.
What do we think about Deoxys-S? I've been using it as my lead and it's almost as effective as before. The only difference being the presence of Espeon and Xatu, which should be thought about.
Generally, it guarantees at least two layers of spikes. I don't even run SR on mine because I can usually nab it off a Magic Coat (which beats Mischevious Heart users). It also makes an excellent user of Dual Screens, which lets it get a couple of layers against stuff that would usually only let it get one (such as Metagross).
In terms of support, it's generally my MVP most games (the other being Shaymin-S, which is so broken it's unreal).
I think it's probably worth testing, but is less of a priority than getting rid of Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Manaphy, etc.
Generally, it guarantees at least two layers of spikes. I don't even run SR on mine because I can usually nab it off a Magic Coat (which beats Mischevious Heart users). It also makes an excellent user of Dual Screens, which lets it get a couple of layers against stuff that would usually only let it get one (such as Metagross).
In terms of support, it's generally my MVP most games (the other being Shaymin-S, which is so broken it's unreal).
I think it's probably worth testing, but is less of a priority than getting rid of Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Manaphy, etc.
Shaymin-S - Broken - The best Revenge Killer is a Scarfed Pokemon IF Shaymin isn't scarfed
Inconsistent... Also Broken - This is the reason my Trick Scarf Gengar Knows Haze instead of Sludge Bomb (Clear Smog is illegal with Trick)
Manaphy in Rain - Broken lets say your Pokemon with Grass/Electric attacks and Weather inducers died then Manaphy came in the rain... Game Over...
Darkrai - Not Sure - Sacrifice the Pokemon that is least useful against your opponet's team to sleep... THEN send in your counter...
Deoxys-S - Not Broken - Great lead/spiker with Shadow Ball to kill Magic Mirror Pokemon. Also, it's fast (Did I need to point that out?)
Deoxys-A/Normal - Not Broken (Used by too many noobs) - Extreme Attack and ExtremeSpeed (both the stat and move) at the recoil of No Defense
Magikarp - Not Broken (and it never will be)
Inconsistent... Also Broken - This is the reason my Trick Scarf Gengar Knows Haze instead of Sludge Bomb (Clear Smog is illegal with Trick)
Manaphy in Rain - Broken lets say your Pokemon with Grass/Electric attacks and Weather inducers died then Manaphy came in the rain... Game Over...
Darkrai - Not Sure - Sacrifice the Pokemon that is least useful against your opponet's team to sleep... THEN send in your counter...
Deoxys-S - Not Broken - Great lead/spiker with Shadow Ball to kill Magic Mirror Pokemon. Also, it's fast (Did I need to point that out?)
Deoxys-A/Normal - Not Broken (Used by too many noobs) - Extreme Attack and ExtremeSpeed (both the stat and move) at the recoil of No Defense
Magikarp - Not Broken (and it never will be)
WOW, YOU'VE JUST BLOWN MY MIND
THAT COULD DEFINITELY HAPPEN
QUICK, LET'S ADVANCE BAN MAGIKARP FROM 6TH GEN OU
EDIT: aaaaand it gets deleted. Oh well.
Aside from that. Main thing limiting Manaphy at the moment is its mediocre speed. Plenty of Pokemon, scarfed or not, outspeed and revenge that (quick example: Latios with Thunder should OHKO and is VERY strong on its own). Admittedly, Manaphy can switch out under most circumstances, but then again, so can pretty much every sweeper that doesn't run Belly Drum or Subberry. I don't really know if Manaphy can be counted as too strong yet, but if it does get banned, it will be because of its extremely solid defenses.
Did you honestly think I was serious? Go learn how the internet works.
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Annnnyway, I think that if we're going to ban abilities, we should check to make sure it's broken on all of its users. If one user is not broken, then we really shouldn't ban the ability.
Example: Before we ban Inconsistent, we should wait for Smeargle and Glalie to be released. We can be certain that they're still broken, but I think it's a better policy to test every single thing that we're banning.
I fully support the fact that you don't want to jump the gun, but as someone who got a little impatient and plays DW, I can tell you that they're all broken. Especially Smeargle with Baton Pass and Glalie with Hail support.
I think that we are making signifacant progress in this thread. We have determined for the most part that we will hold off on the weather abusers and inducers for now and focus on many unbanned ubers, and even for many of those, we have reached a common consensus.
Now I'd like to get an old argument out of the way so we can progress.
Ban abilities, or pokemon?
And please don't say "If it can't have Inconsistent, I don't want it" as an argument. The NU and UU tiers still exist, and Smeargle is still a good pokemon.
Personally, if we can ban moves, we can ban abilities. It would be different if only one pokemon had this ability or if they all had only one ability, but Inconsistent is only a small part of each pokemon, and if Inconsistent is the only reason they will be uber, I propose we ban the obviously broken part of them, which is the ability. Nothing about any of these pokemon is broken at all besides the ability that they all share. Spare these poor NU pokemon (besides Smeargle) and just ban their abilities.
I agree. if it is the ability that is causing the mon to be unhealthy for the metagame and it has a controllable alternative for abilities (Read: only ban DW abilities) then the ability should be banned.
This. I don't play DW anymore just because I want to get points on the official ladder and I know Dream World isn't what our decisions are made off of but when deciding inconsistent clause or ban octillery/bibarel to Ubers until all inconsistent 'mons are released (where they can still be OP mind you) I think it's a fair place to look for a general idea.
While I support an Inconsistent ban, jumping the gun wasn't my point.
If even one user of an ability like Inconsistent were not broken, it would mean that the ability is fine. It would mean that the ability is not broken because only certain pokemon using it are.
In that case, we would ban all the broken pokemon, no matter how many, instead of the ability itself.
Of course, I don't make Smogon's policy, but if it's not broken on every user, I still say it's the pokemon using it who are broken and not the ability.
P.S.- I'm not saying that Smeargle and Glalie won't be broken.
P.P.S.- This isn't supposed to be about Inconsistent. It's merely something that I think would prevent any sort of "slippery slope" which many people are worried about.
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