Why should we have to curb the rules to accept a single pokémon in OU/UU/NU? What makes Darkrai so special for us to have a move banned instead of it?
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
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You want to ban Dark Void on Darkrai, think of this:
That'd be like saying Skymin wouldn't be that great without Earth Power and Air Slash, those two moves pretty much help push it into Uber because of hax and coverage that allows it to take down what would otherwise be common counters, but nobody wants to ban those moves even though they'd bring Skymin into OU.
You just have to think of the big picture.
That'd be like saying Skymin wouldn't be that great without Earth Power and Air Slash, those two moves pretty much help push it into Uber because of hax and coverage that allows it to take down what would otherwise be common counters, but nobody wants to ban those moves even though they'd bring Skymin into OU.
You just have to think of the big picture.
I still fail to see how you have proven that banning a Pokemon + Move combination will NOT inevitably lead to people suggesting other Pokemon + Move combinations being banned. What if I suggested banning Draco Meteor on Dialga? And then what if, even after that, Dialga is still broken, so I suggest banning Draco Meteor + Outrage? What are you going to tell me, that the only Pokemon + Move combination that should be banned would be Darkrai + Dark Void?
Seriously, Pokemon + Move bans just aren't going to work. You're saying a combination of factors are broken, but EVERY Uber is a combination of factors being broken, meaning that we can break each one down and ban things until it no longer is broken. Do you really want that to happen?
Seriously, Pokemon + Move bans just aren't going to work. You're saying a combination of factors are broken, but EVERY Uber is a combination of factors being broken, meaning that we can break each one down and ban things until it no longer is broken. Do you really want that to happen?
Then hold a vote to ban either the Darkrai+Bad Dreams combination or Darkrai+Dark Void combination.
Conversing about unilateral bans on moves/abilities/items is unnecessary. As of today, there are no broken moves, abilities, or items. Things don't break until they're attached to a type and a collection of base stats.
There's is no slippery slope. What is this crap? Do what should be done and then do nothing else. Separate 1 move or 1 item or 1 ability from a pokemon, nothing more, and if it's still broken? Uber.
So what if it comes up that Ho-oh - Sacred Fire may not be uber? I am not saying I believe that, but repeating another poster's example.
First, determine if Sacred Fire really is what makes Ho-oh broken. Then ban the Ho-oh+Sacred Fire combination and see what happens.
um don't care what u think in the primary regard.
not entirely darkrai can 2shot THE ULTIMATE SPECIAL WALL BLISSEY w/ 1 round of setup, is very fast, fairly bulky, great general move-pool for support, + amazing coverage w/ 2 attacks. darkrai has too much going 4 it other than void to stay ou.
One-time flexibility applies to any pokemon. If it falls into balance with the separation of 1 move OR 1 ability OR 1 item <no combination of 1 item + 1 move or etc>, then it can be introduced into OU under that single condition. People suspected Latias last gen without Soul Dew, right? Single condition.
This is what I'm calling for when I mention one-time flexibility.
zomg! poryZ can ohko bliss w/ 1 turn of setup plus adaptability hyper beam! Is soo broken! Ban it now! now! now!
Yeah, let's ban it because it can KO Blissey. Now don't think I'm picking this out for no reason because i actually think Darkrai should be banned but if you want any credibility post with grammar and actually give reasons for banning.
I do agree that the sleep machanics cause Darkrai (or at least Dark Void) to push Darkrai into broken territory.To those who say that we should let it develop into a metagme where Sleep Talk and status absorbers are necessary because is that so bad I say yes it is. I have maintained since the banlist debates that anything which significantly over-centralises the metagame should be banned.
If every team is required to carry a status absorber or Sleep Talker on their team, regardless of how many users there are, in order to not be at a significant disadvantage against a pokemon that could be on as many as 40 percent of opposing teams, taking up a teamslot that could otherwise be used to further your teams strategy or force a win, then that is overcentralising.
(About the above paragraph that is a specific response to the posters saying that there is no harm in seeing how the metagame progresses, not necessarily a blanket statement)
the difference is pgon-z is ballenced by lack of real bulk, speed,+ real move-pool to the level of darkrai. darkrai actually breaks the offensive/support aspects of an uber.
edit: i've had this argument ready for an hour just waiting.
Like I said, i agree with Darkrai to Uber. I was mostly just mocking your lack of grammar/caps.
The thing is, zero-time flexibility makes rulings a lot simpler, testing a lot faster, is fairly easier to justify, and doesn't really lose out on anything.
We'll just chalk up Soul Dew clause to our own inexperience in testing out what type of banning system would be best.
I mean, people keep bringing up Soul Dew clause, but that was really our first time experimenting with something like that, and we might not have dealt with it the way we would now. IMO, it's better to see if the precedent wasn't a good decision rather than conform our current methods to a potentially faulty precedent.
Honestly I don't care what others think + I'm a B student in english i just don't bother since I'm a slow type remembering grammar just slows me down further + I just want the post up.
Why should this one-time flexibility be for Darkrai?
That's exactly the sort of situation that we are attempting to avoid by not setting a precedent for banning a pokemon+move combination. Banning the Ho-Oh + Sacred Fire combination would still lead to a situation in which it's not positive whether the pokemon is overpowered (Ho-Oh would probably still be overpowered without Sacred Fire). If the move isn't the sole reason that the pokemon is overpowered, it sets a precedent in which someone can argue for testing of x pokemon without y move, which not only takes up an immense amount of time and isn't worth the trouble, but it actually will lead to a situation in which someone can argue "x pokemon without y and z moves isn't Uber," which none of us want. Precautionary principle dictates that we should avoid creating the conditions for the slippery slope to occur in the first place.
Darkrai should just be banned, quit all this argueing over if him holding Dark Void is what really makes him broken. I am not saying its a slippery slope process, but you can take that logic literally EVERYWHERE and find reasons to allow ALL the ubers including arceus himself to stay in ubers if you start banning pieces and combinations of his move list so he can drop to ubers. Darkrai was tested i believe in last gen to see if he was broken without DV... and well they still considered him broken. Hypnosis on darkrai just means that people still have slightly more odds of getting back in, but if they fall asleep the uncome is still the same. I understand how salamence and garchomp are no longer Uber this gen due to equivalent threats (nobody has proven to be mroe threatening than garchomp in the sand 20% dropped accuracy still wins matches) but after this short time of testing, manaphy, shaymin-s and darkrai still proved to be the ubers they were in the last gen, just ban them, don't nerf them that is an insult to them, if it isn't something like an ability like inconsistent that is downright metagame breakign then just ban the pokemon.
that's like 2-3 ppl who really aren't willing to face the truth that darkrai is too much for a healthy meta.
It's not only for Darkrai, if that's your question. Darkrai's a possible subject because there's a question of it's validity in the OU environment without Dark Void.
I personally don't care about Darkrai, I'm neutral. Uber or OU, who cares as long as OU plays decently in the end. I just have an opinion concerning the protocol.
@somebody else
You've just stated your real problem. There are suspect tests for a reason. You simply don't care about the end result, because you're hesitant to do any tests.
It's literally a one try per broken pokemon basis, not a continuous 'remove move x and ability y' deal. It can be handled in exactly the same manner as Latias w/o Soul Dew.
And nobody's called for Ho-oh w/o Sacred Fire, so that's a non-existent issue.
I'm sorry, I've countered this argument far too many times, I'm not doing it again. Go look for the big massive bold letters and read them, then come back.
2HKOing Blissey at +2 can be done by almost any fairly powerful special attacker with Aura Sphere or Focus Blast.
And have you tested this hypothesis that Darkrai is still uber sans DV? If not, please GTFO. Also, please just use at least some grammar.
Tbh mate, I think this system, while well thought out and well restricted, is still just gonna cause a slippery slope with every Uber/suspect. I think it's better to just stick to outright bans.
I've explained why yout first point is wrong countless times; look for the huge bold letters and read them. Also, Darkrai was never tested without Dark Void last gen, and even if it was previous generation evidence means nothing. I'm not claiming that Darkrai will definitely not be Uber without DV, but it will cause enough of a difference to warrant a test to see if it is or not.
um no there is no need 4 darkrai w/o void to be tested its far too powerful w/ or w/o. i've said this several times i'm almost certain u don't even know the 3 base criteria for determining an uber since darkrai fits 2 of them. darkrai has no walls, no counters (a lot of ubers are only checked darkrai is no different), an insane support move-pool, + and ridiculous coverage w/ dark pulse + focus blast on top of nasty plot.
also ho-oh was an example of how this could roll into a slippery slope (not a good 1 unfortunately rayquaza w/o stab stronger than dragon claw would have been better)
Okay, so test Darkrai without Dark Void, and if it's still broken, there will still be people advocating a test that omits another one of its commonly used moves. Maybe Darkrai with Dark Void won't be so bad if you take away its STAB?
Or maybe Darkrai without Dark Void WON'T be broken...but wait, how do we know that Darkrai wouldn't still be an acceptable Pokemon if you let it have Dark Void but instead take away its STAB? So now another test....but then what if Darkrai without Dark Void and with STAB AND Darkrai without STAB and with Dark Void are both acceptable? Which move gets the boot?
And you're going to have to be ready for the possibility of this happening with every single current/potential Uber Pokemon.
Or maybe Darkrai without Dark Void WON'T be broken...but wait, how do we know that Darkrai wouldn't still be an acceptable Pokemon if you let it have Dark Void but instead take away its STAB? So now another test....but then what if Darkrai without Dark Void and with STAB AND Darkrai without STAB and with Dark Void are both acceptable? Which move gets the boot?
And you're going to have to be ready for the possibility of this happening with every single current/potential Uber Pokemon.
I just did, and nothing you said makes any more sense than that situation I put out there.
I think you're confusing "countered this argument" with "thinking I countered this argument".
Look, its absolutely obvious you have a thing for Darkrai. I can see it from the avatar, I can see it from where you want Darkrai to be the only Pokemon to get the grace of not being banned and instead having a banned move, where ALL OTHER UBERS cannot have this privilege. You also hold claims on things that aren't set in stone yet, like if Dark Void breaks sleep clause in Doubles or not, as a proof for allowing the ban for the move or not. You're also completely oblivious to the fact that on paper Darkrai would still be a massive threat with his unparalleled Special sweeping Power. On top of that, you refuse to realize that if people keep shooting the same questions at you, it's because you're arguments aren't cutting it.
Come back with better argumentive skills and a lot less bias and then you might get somewhere.
In the end, domeface, a blanket ban on Dark Void is simply a loophole- it can only be done if there are no other viable users of Dark Void. There's no contingency plan for the case where something like that DOES happen, and it completely goes against the reason that pokemon + move bans are looked down upon; that we're banning various things that aren't broken until something broken is restricted enough to be put in OU.
The whole "blanket ban on all users of Dark Void" does nothing to stop the slippery slope, because you have no way of guaranteeing that Game Freak won't create other situations where a broken pokemon is the sole user of a decent but not broken move. (V-Generate Victini, anyone?)
You're not basing the ban off of any solid argument; you're just taking advantage of a temporary convenient situation regarding the userpool of certain moves.
The whole "blanket ban on all users of Dark Void" does nothing to stop the slippery slope, because you have no way of guaranteeing that Game Freak won't create other situations where a broken pokemon is the sole user of a decent but not broken move. (V-Generate Victini, anyone?)
You're not basing the ban off of any solid argument; you're just taking advantage of a temporary convenient situation regarding the userpool of certain moves.
I thought we already went over this. Dark Void alone is not a broken move. And if 'everything' is essentially Darkrai, you are just supporting a ban on Darkrai because he is a broken user of the move, correct? (Not to mention you're also recklessly restricting the use Dark Void in doubles by Smeargle, which is...completely unnecessary.)
Even if you are not stating it in plain terms, it's quite clear from your reasoning that the culprit is Darkrai and not the move. You are shifting the blame from Darkrai to Dark Void to keep him in OU, which is wrong, especially when it's a claim held on a purely hypothetical basis, counterproductive to general policy, and a waste of time on all accounts. Your reasoning is completely backwards and won't help balance the metagame in any way.
I think you got that backwards; Victini gets the broken move without being a broken Pokemon.
So according to your opinion if a move is exclusive/or only sees competitive use by one or more pokemons and makes them broken(if it is only one having the move only it,or if there are a lot all of them)this move should be banned for the sake of the metagame and because it is desirable for the smogon community to do less bans...
So i can assume that u would also agree banning sacred fire on ho-oh to make him more viable for ou standards...of course ho-oh will continue to be overpowered for ou,but without his basic stab and burn move that gives him almost half of his potential we could try him in ou and see how it fares there...or we could try to ban water spout on kyogre(some other pokes learn it too but none of them sees competitive use)and see if it would be the monster it was before without his 150 bp attack...or we could try to ban the new move that is exclusive for mewtwo,psycho break and see if it will be less game breaking...
I think that your logic is very flawed 'cause you are interupting way too much with a pokemon's individual characteristics(so much it's not even funny)...the smogon community has never removed basic elements of some pokemon's playstyle and original build(i mean how it was created by gamefreak including moves,abilities,etc) and i think it didn't for a reason...
The removal of evasion raising moves is not limiting a certain playstyle of certain pokes,it removes a certain playstyle from the entire game 'cause it is considered too much luck based to be allowed in a competitive game.same goes for ohko moves...the counters to sleep moves in general exist,are a lot,and they have competitive use other than countering just sleep(with the exception of sleep talk when used in a pokemon without rest because when it has it,it is obviously used to make the poke not completely useless while sleeping not only to counter sleep).in the other hand counters to evasion and ohko moves are very hard to find and in most of cases are completely unviable except for countering these things(haze,most always-hitting moves,sturdy,foresight and the list goes on).
The above paragraph was mentioned 'cause i wanted to cover a possible arguement of your's that comes out of my sayings:if u say that removing a move from a poke is wrong why don't u do the same with evasion and ohko moves..
And then after these bans(dark void,sacred fire,etc)we could try banning certain abilities that make all of their users broken(drizzle,drought,turboblaze,shadow tag)and see how it goes...do you see the slippery slope that you said that doesn't happen?well it actually does happen...
And to finish my post:'Smogon aims for fewer bans and removing one move from Darkrai's movepool is 'less of a ban', so to speak, than removing Darkrai completely'.no it's not less of a ban.a ban is a ban!just as u see the sleep,evasion clause when u start a game u would also see the dark void clause...
Please, learn to fucking read. I've said many, many times that we cannot ban Dark Pulse or Nasty Plot or whatever on Darkrai, because OTHER POKEMON USE THOSE MOVES WITHOUT BEING BROKEN. This DOES NOT apply to Dark Void - Darkrai is the only pokemon who uses the move, and he's broken with it. Ergo it's possible to simply ban the move, which cannot be done with any other move unless all pokemon who use it are broken (this could be an argument for banning Judgement or something, but there wouldn't be much point since Arceus would still almost certainly be Uber, whereas Dark Void being banned could realistically stop Darkrai being broken). So no we won't have to deal with this for every Uber pokemon, since very few are made uber purely on the basis of their signature moves, which are the only moves that could be banned in this way.
Wow. So instead of countering my points (or even reading them, it seems), you question my motives? I'm going to ignore your bullshit claims about my motives because they're entirely irrelevant to the argument. Now, let's dispell some of the other lies you're spouting:
I have at no point ever expressed the opinion that Darkrai can be the only pokemon to have a move banned instead of it. If somebody made a decent argument for Ho-Oh being OU without Sacred Fire, then it too would deserve a test. Ditto for any other Ubers or Suspects whose signature moves are pushing them over the edge. It just happens that the most relavent example of this currently is Darkrai.
I never 'held claims' on anything regarding Doubles Sleep Clause; I said that DV would probably be banned in Doubles under Sleep Clause; I did not claim to know this for sure, and in any case if Smogon does develop its own Doubles metagame independant of the VGC, then it should not be using the singles ruleset, but rather its own independant one, so this debate won't affect anything in a properly-built Doubles metagame.
I am not 'completely oblivious' to Darkrai's other qualities; I have said on numerous occaisons that Darkrai may well still be Uber without Dark Void. However, I, unlike you, am supporting a test of this theory, rather than acting on pure theorymon. The fact that Darkrai's best set (Nasty Plot) relies heavily on Dark Void to set up, and the fact that almost every Darkrai set utilises Dark Void is enough to show that removing Darkrai would make a big difference to Darkrai's power, which may or may not be enough to render him OU-worthy. The only way to find this out is to test it.
Also, you seem to be unaware of how arguments work. If somebody asks question X and I respond with response Y, then if you believe that response Y is weak (or 'doesn't cut it' as you put it), then you respond with response Z. You do not go back to question X. That will just give you response Y again.
I find it rather amusing that you insult my 'argumentative skills' when it seems you haven't been able to master the most basic of all of them; reading. Besides the Doubles argument (and the irrelevant claims as to my 'bias'), everything you said here I've countered before, many times. If you think my counters are weak, then counter them yourself. Don't just ask the same questions again.
I'm not sure about this, but I think your argument is that things will get screwed up if another Dark Void user comes up at some point, yes? Well in that situation we would of course simply have to revise the ban, and if any user of the move was found to be not broken with it, then it could not be banned, and the other users would have to be banned outright if they were broken with it.
On the slippery slope, the only door it opens is to banning other signature moves, since almost all other moves will have at least one non-broken user. For most Ubers, their signature moves (if they have them) aren't the reason they're broken. However, if an argument was made for Ho-Oh sans Sacred Fire or similar, then I'd be open to a suspect test. What this system does prevent is the shitstorm created by things like 'Rayquaza minus X-Speed, Outrage, DD, SD, DM, EQ, FB, etc. could be OU!'.
Finally, I sincerely doubt this movepool situation is temporary; GF very rarely distributes legendary signature moves to other pokemon (the exception being the Dragon trio's signatures on event Arceus and Darkrai). However, if another pokemon was to learn DV, then we would simply revise the ban as I described earlier.
As I said to UltiMario, I'm not restricting anything in Doubles since Doubles should be using a different ruleset to OU. Also, of course Darkrai is the problem, but that's because, as I've said on numerous occasions, a move is only as good as its users. Dark Void is in the movepool of a pokemon designed to abuse it, making it more dangerous than Spore. You can't only look at the numerical stats of a move when deciding its brokenness; you must look at which pokemon get the move. Also, you claim that I'm making claims on a 'purely hypothetical basis', when in fact it is you who is guilty of this. I am calling for a test to find out whether or not my hypothesis is correct, while you are dismissing said test based on hypothetical knowledge.
Sorry, your post is way too long and my laptop's running out of battery, but I will say this: yes, we could test Ho-Oh sans Sacred Fire or Mewtwo sans Psycho Break in OU, but it's unlikely they'd be found OU, thus they'd be sent back to Ubers. However, if somebody made a very good argument that they'd be OU, a test could be conducted. Water Spout however could not be banned, as no matter how little the pokemon are used, if there are pokemon who use the move to good effect, then the move cannot be banned. I believe Octillery learns it and he can be used to good effect on TR or BP teams (assuming Inconsistent is banned of course, since currently that's his top use).
Regarding abilities, we already are allowing outright ability bans such as Drizzle. In fact, there's a poll on that very thing right now in PR.
Also, on your last point, if you can't see why effectively removing one move from one pokemon's movepool is 'less of a ban' than remocing a whole pokemon, then I'm not going to explain it to you.
I may counter your other points later, but I don't have time atm.
Please, learn to fucking rationalize. The ONLY reason you're saying Dark Void is broken is because DARKRAI LEARNS IT, meaning Darkrai itself is the problem and not the move. The move itself is NOT broken, because if it were you would automatically have to ban Spore and even Sleep Powder by default as well.
And FYI, Smeargle can learn EVERY SINGLE MOVE IN THE ENTIRE GAME. If Smeargle isn't broken with Dark Void, then Dark Void is NOT a broken move.
And don't act so arrogant on a Pokemon forum. Just because you answered questions that challenge your thought process multiple times does not mean that you were right, so you can't go "Answered already, moving on!"
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