np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[PK Gaming]

The problem with Deoxys-D is that he can use a really broken Cosmic Power set. After a(several) cosmic power boosts, he's too hard to kill. Lets not forget that Deoxys-D learns recover, and has the pressure ability, allowing him to stall out a good portion of the metagame and he is capable of using Taunt to prevent status. Throw in hazards (notably toxic spikes), and a rapid spinner and you've got yourself a fracas.

 

[ensoriki]

Rain is ridiculous. It's on like 75% of teams and, to quote someone on PO, "It's always the freaking same: Politoed lead, Kingdra, Mana, Natt, and Zap."

Being common and being broken aren't the same.


Wtf is the Q_Q about deoxys-D?
Just because he has 90 base doesn't mean you can't taunt him.
Oh and Deoxys-D will just get switched out by a dragon-tail gyarados. Anything with dragon tail/overhead throw for that matter.

 

[moe1216]

Being common and being broken aren't the same.


Wtf is the Q_Q about deoxys-D?
Just because he has 90 base doesn't mean you can't taunt him.
Oh and Deoxys-D will just get switched out by a dragon-tail gyarados. Anything with dragon tail/overhead throw for that matter.

That is true. With those moves, Deoxys can't stop phasing with taunt. question is, who are the good users of dragon tail?

 

[ensoriki]

That is true. With those moves, Deoxys can't stop phasing with taunt. question is, who are the good users of dragon tail?

Off the top of my head, Gyarados.
Zuruzukin as well since it has shed skin, and will likely just heal off the toxic.
Not to mention it can't really do much to steel or poisons at all.
I doubt it's as effective as everyone proclaims it is, though my team would struggle a bit since I lack counters :)

 

[cosmicexplorer]

It's actually awesome, although Rain / Sand offense is simply more run and easy to use right now. And not that many things actually use Dragon Tail, while Deo-D's Cosmic Power set commonly uses Substitute, which blocks Dragon Tail.

 

[phalanx]

just a point on banning rain, if rain goes, the metagame will be littered with sandstorm teams, because of the power of garchomp, dory etc.
as for manaphy, free rain (drizzle) and +3 from tail glow, i dont see why this was even considered OU considering it has imporved if anything.
and what about deoxys-s, this is annoying with magic coat
and we are also forgetting things like mew and wobuffet which have snuck under the radar

 

[cosmicexplorer]

If banning something broken causes something else to be overpowered, then the other strategy should also be banned. Having Sand teams dominate the metagame is no reason not to ban Rain, if the suspect voters do decide to ban it.

 

[moe1216]

just a point on banning rain, if rain goes, the metagame will be littered with sandstorm teams, because of the power of garchomp, dory etc.
as for manaphy, free rain (drizzle) and +3 from tail glow, i dont see why this was even considered OU considering it has imporved if anything.
and what about deoxys-s, this is annoying with magic coat
and we are also forgetting things like mew and wobuffet which have snuck under the radar

Phalanx is right. Rain and Sand both have their strengths and weaknesses, but the point is right now they are two sides of the same coin. Rain and Sand both support Defense/Stall through Hydration and damage accumulation and Offense through the water attack boosts and Swift Swim, with Sand just now getting the ability equivalents in Sand Power and Sand Paddle. Without the other to counter it, one weather would dominate the metagame, even more so since sand got Doryuzu and Landlos, the best users of Sand Paddle and Sand Power respectively, as well as the advantage of having two pokes who can bring in Sand.

I guess what I'm saying is that with rain and sand, the two weathers cancel each other, but with one gone the other will dominate....supposedly. I worry sometimes that the things I say don't make sense anymore.

 

[ensoriki]

just a point on banning rain, if rain goes, the metagame will be littered with sandstorm teams, because of the power of garchomp, dory etc.
as for manaphy, free rain (drizzle) and +3 from tail glow, i dont see why this was even considered OU considering it has imporved if anything.
and what about deoxys-s, this is annoying with magic coat
and we are also forgetting things like mew and wobuffet which have snuck under the radar

sand is already popular so being littered with sandstorm means nothing. Sandstorm was basically rivaling rain in popularity next round.
I don't know why people say things being common,littered, etc matters.
Unless you think sand is broken but w/e, cus Dory's pretty ezpz.
---

@ SjCrew Sure Deoxys-D can do some good stalling, but come on it has limited moveslots.

It's not going to have substitute,recover,magic coat, toxic, cosmic power, taunt, agility all at the same time.
Borotoseru will also just use priority taunt for example.
Any a perish trapping murkrow forces Deo-D out as well.
I think theres enough counters to it.

 

[Redjar]

So everyone is calling for a drizzleban b/c that all that they play and it's broken. So I can assume everyone who uses drizzletoed doesn't post here or people here are using Drizzletoed and still complaining about it. W/out drizzle we will be back here in a few weeks calling for a droughttails ban possibly even more weather bans w/ the uprising of Dory (though he gives me little trouble) Manaphy w/ hydration and tailglow is what I think should be banned mainly b/c if don't think drizzle should be banned. I have 1 weather team (drizzle) I like it. I don't use it often. It's a drizzlelite team so it can be useful incase I lose my weather. I don't mind other rain teams. Not broken (IMO)

 

[moe1216]

I honestly don't mind rain. I think it changes the pace and gives more pokes use. If I lose to a rain team, I do research, make changes, and then kick said rain team's ass.

 

[capefeather]

Sun is definitely not going to be as good as rain. Almost all of the Chlorophyll users either can't outrun Scarf Garchomp or can't cleanly 2HKO Blissey after Stealth Rock damage (unless they resort to Choice Band). What the hell is up with that? I think that deer guy can cleanly 2HKO Blissey but that's just because it has a Fighting-type move, and even then that Fighting-type move is JUMP KICK. WTF. Leafeon also comes close, but... *looks at movepool, shivers* Not to mention their STABs aren't even boosted... Why didn't they give us a Fire-type Chlorophyll user?

EDIT: I looked at the Chlorophyll list again, and the following can both outrun Scarf Garchomp and cleanly 2HKO Blissey:
Victreebel
Shiftry
Marakacchi
Mebukijika

I guess that's not bad.

 

[akira95]

sand is already popular so being littered with sandstorm means nothing. Sandstorm was basically rivaling rain in popularity next round.
I don't know why people say things being common,littered, etc matters.
Unless you think sand is broken but w/e, cus Dory's pretty ezpz.
---

@ SjCrew Sure Deoxys-D can do some good stalling, but come on it has limited moveslots.

It's not going to have substitute,recover,magic coat, toxic, cosmic power, taunt, agility all at the same time.
Borotoseru will also just use priority taunt for example.
Any a perish trapping murkrow forces Deo-D out as well.
I think theres enough counters to it.

well how many people actually carry a perrish trapping murkrow?
Also some variants of deoxys -D carry ice beam on them so its not always a safe switch bringing it in to taunt and deoxys -D's special attack isnt all to bad.

Also if rain and sand are common and everywhere it causes the metagame to be overcentralized on these two strategies, dooming any chance of balance teams which i've tried repeatedlly but failed when i come up against a rain team or a sand team

 

[moe1216]

Sun is definitely not going to be as good as rain. Almost all of the Chlorophyll users either can't outrun Scarf Garchomp or can't cleanly 2HKO Blissey after Stealth Rock damage (unless they resort to Choice Band). What the hell is up with that? I think that deer guy can cleanly 2HKO Blissey but that's just because it has a Fighting-type move, and even then that Fighting-type move is JUMP KICK. WTF. Leafeon also comes close, but... *looks at movepool, shivers* Not to mention their STABs aren't even boosted... Why didn't they give us a Fire-type Chlorophyll user?

Because GF is cruel.

 

[XienZo]

well how many people actually carry a perrish trapping murkrow?

It's actually got the best defenses of any Mischevious Heart pokemon, not to mention it gets Roost and Feather Dance as options to help stall for the turns.

 

[ensoriki]

well how many people actually carry a perrish trapping murkrow?

So what?
It's viable in OU, and it's a counter to some forms of Deo-D. So I stated it.
One among many.

Also some variants of deoxys -D carry ice beam on them so its not always a safe switch bringing it in to taunt and deoxys -D's special attack isnt all to bad.

If it's bringing ice beam, that mean's theres another move that it did not bring, and that leaves a gap to exploit.
It's "flexible" in that respect, but that doesn't mean it's broken.

Also if rain and sand are common and everywhere it causes the metagame to be overcentralized on these two strategies, dooming any chance of balance teams which i've tried repeatedlly but failed when i come up against a rain team or a sand team

Who cares if it's overcentralized. Overcentralization is a terrible reason to nominate anything.
If everyone starts carry's scizor, so what? It's called bring a scizor counter.
If weather is the metagame, so what? It is what it is? The only concern should be if it's broken or not, if it's popular so what, all of a sudden things need to be banned, because people are using it?
It's funny because the tier gets called "overused"/standard, complaining about centralization in something called overused sounds retarded.
Overcentralization isn't a reason to ban things, it just makes you wonder if the reason something is used, is because it's broken.
Why should we care if you can't use a "balanced team", not like much people care if a drizzle ban smashed rain stall.
Far as I understand, your playstyle doesn't matter at all, and the only thing that matters is whether or not something is broken. If your playstyle dies, I believe the phrase, unfortunately is "too bad"?
Who cares if banning Mewtwo stops someones playstyle of using some retarded Mewtwo set that isn't "broken".

Someone can surely correct me If im wrong but when did overcentralization ever matter? Garchomp? Please they gave more reasons than overcentralization.
I don't mean for you to take offense, and I apologize if you do.

 

[ck49]

Set the limit to a difference of 50 or 100. That way you don't get +1/-30 matches which really just waste your time and could potentially screw your rating if you get haxed.

I finally figured out what the numbers that they always put at the top of the match are. Well, I guess I'll be off making a team and try some laddering on the smogon server.

 

[BurningMan]

Fire is also a worse attacking type because it lacks the excellent neutral coverage of Water. Its also much a worse defensive type, being weak to Rock, Water and Ground wich are the most used attacking types atm.

and as capefeather said most chlorophyll users are horrible, besides venusaur who got a pretty extreme 4 move slot problem.

Under the rain all swift swimmers (bar Tsunbea) get a Stab boosted wich is also an excellent attacking type and almost everyone of them also has a great secondary stab that pairs well with water. Thunder/Hurricane get perfect accuary under the Rain while Sun gets a no charge Solar Beam wich is much worse.
Rain also gets other great abilities like Hydration, Rain Dish and Dry Skin that help more defensive Pokemon.
Sun gets Solar Power (would actually be a great ability, but is only given to some pretty horrible Pokemon) and Leaf Guard (wich isn't bad, but much worse compared to hydration).
Sun gets the nice growth buff this gen, but mixed sweepers often don't got time to boost and you will have to split the evs so often your much better off with a pure physical or special set.

 

[Arc Tech]

Sun is definitely not going to be as good as rain. Almost all of the Chlorophyll users either can't outrun Scarf Garchomp or can't cleanly 2HKO Blissey after Stealth Rock damage (unless they resort to Choice Band). What the hell is up with that? I think that deer guy can cleanly 2HKO Blissey but that's just because it has a Fighting-type move, and even then that Fighting-type move is JUMP KICK. WTF. Leafeon also comes close, but... *looks at movepool, shivers* Not to mention their STABs aren't even boosted... Why didn't they give us a Fire-type Chlorophyll user?

Becuase theres no fire/grass type.

I've been playing with a sun team, epic fail at first, but it has a learning curve. I'm ranked in the 1100s at 50ish now, but every match seems like a bit of a headache (but maybe thats just cuz I'm sick >.>). Even when I eliminate their weather starter (if they have one), the weather abusers just feel too frail to switch in. Especially against sand teams, which carry a lot of SE moves against my darmition and ninetails (fortunately that is balanced by the fact ttar is easier to trick out and eliminate-at least for my team).

The only semidecent backup user is erufuun, whom I do not like very much. Especially since stun spore always misses.

 

[rav3n_zero]

If you're complaining about Sun, check the Hail topic... They are about to cry there. Just joking. :P

And, just IMHO, banning DrizzleToed just because people are using him a lot and Rain makes for good, mostly newbie-friendly easy to make teams is kinda weird. Changing the weather makes most Rain abusers (barring Manaphy, which I believe is Uber material, and Kingdra that remains good, but, depending on the set, not that much of a threat) into what they originally are: frail and with mediocre Spe at best.

As someone said in another thread (my memory is obviously flawed, resembling a golden fish's), people are trying to counter individual Pokémon, when the problem is weather. Run a deffensive (or Water resistant) mon with a weather move, or just use your own weather inducers to counter Rain.

It's a different metagame from before, weather is more important than ever, but that doesn't make it broken per se. Otherwise, Sand will just be everywhere again as someone mentioned, and even more powerful than before. What to do next? Ban it too?

 

[Arc Tech]

If you're complaining about Sun, check the Hail topic... They are about to cry there. Just joking. :P

And, just IMHO, banning DrizzleToed just because people are using him a lot and Rain makes for good, mostly newbie-friendly easy to make teams is kinda weird. Changing the weather makes most Rain abusers (barring Manaphy, which I believe is Uber material, and Kingdra that remains good, but, depending on the set, not that much of a threat) into what they originally are: frail and with mediocre Spe at best.

As someone said in another thread (my memory is obviously flawed, resembling a golden fish's), people are trying to counter individual Pokémon, when the problem is weather. Run a deffensive (or Water resistant) mon with a weather move, or just use your own weather inducers to counter Rain.

It's a different metagame from before, weather is more important than ever, but that doesn't make it broken per se. Otherwise, Sand will just be everywhere again as someone mentioned, and even more powerful than before. What to do next? Ban it too?

If drizzle's broken, then sandstream and drought are probably broken too, because they all operate on a similar level, although drizzle is arguably the best (sand is more balanced in how it operates, so it can contest rain, the most offensive). Snow warning... has no real offensive boosts other than 100% accurate blizzards which do not compare to double stab surfs, especially since only a few ice types have decent special sweeping potential, and only defensive benefits to ice body users- which are defensively poor ice types.

The question is whether weather is broken and overcentralizing or not. Since if you're forced to run one of 5 pokes, I think that qualifies as overcentralization. Especially since for 4 you have to build a team around the weather, or lose to a team built around the same weather. Hail is the only one where a random team with abomasnow is not at a very significant disadvantage against a dedicated hail team.

I am going to attempt to ladder with a no weather team next.

 

[moe1216]

^Right on the money. If I remember last gen, there were pokes who carried rain dance, hail and sunny day as moves. Due to the arrival of tales and toed, wouldn't it be a good idea to run pokes with th move sand storm as well? Not sweeper pokes like chomp or doryuzu, but stuff like gligar, gliscor, swampert, or nidoqueen?

 

[TheFourthChaser]

I still can't believe Drizzle wasn't banned, if it isn't banned this round there is a serious problem.

 

[TLK]

Garchomp should be tested again. It's great, it's too great. Its sets all carry generally the same moves save one of two and change the item, but it can get through all of its "counters" (using the term loosely).

It's going under the radar just now because everyone (rightfully) wants to see Skymin, Darkrai etc, gone and now that they are they want rid of Manaphy/Drizzle. Chomp needs tested as well though.

 

[Wafflez]

Lol here we go again..I probably wont be able to play this round becuase i have some irl issues and stuff so gl to all those participating.

Anyway i still think Rain inst all that broken and Manaphy should be tested first..If Rain still proves to be broken after manaphy is gone we can always just vote it next round.