np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[XienZo]

The issue is sufficient justification for banning of the issue, which is Sand Veil + Sand Stream. It is not sufficient to justify banning entire Pokemon.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't banning a pokemon the most preferable action to take against something that's broken, in contrast to banning an ability/weather/both?

As far as I'm aware, we ban the pokemon first. If that can't fix the problem, THEN we look at alternatives.

 

[Meru]

are you shitting me


No one cares about Sand Veil Gliscor, Sand Veil Cacturne, Snow Cloak Froslass. The main, if not only, offender is Garchomp. If we ban Garchomp, no one has a problem anymore. How can a complex ban be more streamlined than this?

Pretty sure people have a problem with those too. They just don't show up enough to be considered.

 

[Thorhammer]

are you shitting me


No one cares about Sand Veil Gliscor, Sand Veil Cacturne, Snow Cloak Froslass. The main, if not only, offender is Garchomp. If we ban Garchomp, no one has a problem anymore. How can a complex ban be more streamlined than this?

I said it causes problems, not that it ignores problems. Garchomp outside of Sand Stream is a positive part of the metagame. If we throw it away, we create a problem.

Although I would say Sand Veil Gliscor certainly has the potential to be a problem. Sand Veil Gliscor is the perfect example of something for which there is no benefit to keeping in this metagame.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Pretty sure people have a problem with those too. They just don't show up enough to be considered.

Yes, that's why a separate thread should hold this discussion, so people can come up with an idea for nomination (or not even nominating it, who knows); what I see here is a couple users talking about banning Sand Veil, and Thorhammer suggesting his complex ban every now and then, and this is anything but helpful to the supporters; I know I'm tired of having this same argument clogging up this thread when it's clearly not a huge issue, and other users have voiced the same feeling too.

 

[Thorhammer]

Yes, that's why a separate thread should hold this discussion, so people can come up with an idea for nomination (or not even nominating it, who knows); what I see here is a couple users talking about banning Sand Veil, and Thorhammer suggesting his complex ban every now and then, and this is anything but helpful to the supporters; I know I'm tired of having this same argument clogging up this thread when it's clearly not a huge issue, and other users have voiced the same feeling too.

That is what is going on now. As long as that thread remains active, we should not continue this discussion here.

 

[capefeather]

...I don't see the thread within the past 24 hours? I'm sorry for continuing this sort of, but

Garchomp outside of Sand Stream is a positive part of the metagame.

defensive Garchomp might have been a positive part of Gen IV. That doesn't mean we try to keep it. There's little to suggest that anything as drastic as every weather being banned would occur if Garchomp were banned.

 

[Thorhammer]

...I don't see the thread within the past 24 hours? I'm sorry for continuing this sort of, butdefensive Garchomp might have been a positive part of Gen IV. That doesn't mean we try to keep it. There's little to suggest that anything as drastic as every weather being banned would occur if Garchomp were banned.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102112

The title is a bit misleading, but it's clear from the first post what the focus of the thread is.

I suggest we continue this there.

 

[masterful]

PLEASE! People, read this, I beg of you. This is one of the most frustrating threads I have ever participated in on this site. Please show (WITH EVIDENCE), that Garchomp with Sand Veil is broken. If Chomp+Veil is NOT broken, this entire debate is meaningless and Sand Veil should remain allowed. Explain coherently how exactly Garchomp with Sand Veil is broken without assuming guaranteed free turns prior to hax, repeated hax, and while referencing the fact that Garchomp is not the same speed-demon that he used to be in Gen IV. We have been posting for pages, and I have seen not a single argument that has not been refuted nor refutation of an another's point from the side that believes Sand Veil should be banned. Also, please stop debating Brightpowder. Nobody who believes Brightpowder is a crappy, not-at-all broken item will have his or her opinion so drastically changed by a completely selective example that occurs very rarely in a real match. Nom Brightpowder, and we can see if it is banned or not. Please, I understand that my own points may be repetitive as well, and I am by no means exempt from this announcement. I just desperately want to be able to carry on a coherent argument in which points are recognized, semantics are ignored, and passive-aggressiveness is nonexistent. Please.

 

[Thorhammer]

PLEASE! People, read this, I beg of you. This is one of the most frustrating threads I have ever participated in on this site. Please show (WITH EVIDENCE), that Garchomp with Sand Veil is broken. If Chomp+Veil is NOT broken, this entire debate is meaningless and Sand Veil should remain allowed. Explain coherently how exactly Garchomp with Sand Veil is broken without assuming guaranteed free turns prior to hax, repeated hax, and while referencing the fact that Garchomp is not the same speed-demon that he used to be in Gen IV. We have been posting for pages, and I have seen not a single argument that has not been refuted nor refutation of an another's point from the side that believes Sand Veil should be banned. Also, please stop debating Brightpowder. Nobody who believes Brightpowder is a crappy, not-at-all broken item will have his or her opinion so drastically changed by a completely selective example that occurs very rarely in a real match. Nom Brightpowder, and we can see if it is banned or not. Please, I understand that my own points may be repetitive as well, and I am by no means exempt from this announcement. I just desperately want to be able to carry on a coherent argument in which points are recognized, semantics are ignored, and passive-aggressiveness is nonexistent. Please.

The only problem here is that you refuse to address or even acknowledge the points people are actually making.

 

[masterful]

The only problem here is that you refuse to address or even acknowledge the points people are actually making.

EXCEPT I HAVE! This is physically painful.
1)The only thing that matters is if Sand Veil+Garchomp is broken
2)We only ban things that are broken, not on principle.
3)Combo banning SS and Drizzle preserves the styles of rain stall and rain offense, while keeping them not broken.
4)Brightpowder is worse in nearly every case than Life Orb, Lefties, or a Choice Item.

There you go. These are my refutations. Either present a viable reason why Sand Veil+Chomp is legitimately broken in a common situation (no magical free set-up turns, Thor) or stop arguing semantics and arbitrary points.

 

[shrang]

I said it causes problems, not that it ignores problems. Garchomp outside of Sand Stream is a positive part of the metagame. If we throw it away, we create a problem.

I'm pretty sure that if you took away Rock Polish or Swords Dance, Groudon could potentially be a positive part of the metagame too.

 

[Thorhammer]

I'm pretty sure that if you took away Rock Polish or Swords Dance, Groudon could potentially be a positive part of the metagame too.

Modifying movepools opens the door to an unlimited number of unreasonably complex bans. Banning a combination of a weather-inducing ability and something which benefits from the ability does not, and in fact has already been permitted.

EXCEPT I HAVE! This is physically painful.
1)The only thing that matters is if Sand Veil+Garchomp is broken
2)We only ban things that are broken, not on principle.
3)Combo banning SS and Drizzle preserves the styles of rain stall and rain offense, while keeping them not broken.
4)Brightpowder is worse in nearly every case than Life Orb, Lefties, or a Choice Item.

There you go. These are my refutations. Either present a viable reason why Sand Veil+Chomp is legitimately broken in a common situation (no magical free set-up turns, Thor) or stop arguing semantics and arbitrary points.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

 

[Ewil]

i think that sand veil, snow cloack & bright power must be a part of the evasion-clause.
More lucky or less they cause a lucky factor in one (or more) of your pkmn.
Maybe we should wait for introducing sand veil in the evasion clause 'till rought skin Garchomp is released :/

 

[Showsni]

2)We only ban things that are broken, not on principle.

That's not true, though. For instance, it's now banned to use SS Magikarp on any team running Drizzle Politoed. Magikarp. Is banned.

Magikarp.

Presumably that was just a ban of laziness; "We can't be bothered to test every swift swim Pokémon in Drizzle. Kingdra seems pretty good, though. We'll just ban all of them."

Similarly, stuff like OHKO moves and double team aren't necessarly broken; indeed, most of the time they're probably lesser options. They're banned for reasons of fun; "I hate missing Blissey three times in a row! Ban this junk!" "You killed me with Fissure? What a noob! Unfair! Ban it!"

If we start banning everything that adds luck to the game, it would never end. Ban sand veil. Ban serene grace iron head/air slash. Ban confuse ray. Ban thunder wave. Ban critical hits. Ban moves with damage rolls. Ban speed ties.

Then we're left with Seismic Toss vs. Night Shade. Fun.

 

[franky]

I'm pretty sure that if you took away Rock Polish or Swords Dance, Groudon could potentially be a positive part of the metagame too.

but you see the difference between your reasoning and the sand veil ban is that the latter follows the evasion clause involuntary given the ability garchomp has. it takes away the skill of the game easily and it robs a person's surefire victory with a little evasion. swords dance and rock polish have nothing to do with this because those can be prevented with perfect prediction and play. on the other hand, no matter how precise you play the entire game, you will always have a chance to miss against a garchomp thanks to sand veil and it ultimately takes the skill away from the game. removing sand veil would actually be a positive and healthy improvement in the metagame- or at least, sand veil+garchomp.

 

[shrang]

but you see the difference between your reasoning and the sand veil ban is that the latter follows the evasion clause involuntary given the ability garchomp has. it takes away the skill of the game easily and it robs a person's surefire victory with a little evasion. swords dance and rock polish have nothing to do with this because those can be prevented with perfect prediction and play. on the other hand, no matter how precise you play the entire game, you will always have a chance to miss against a garchomp thanks to sand veil and it ultimately takes the skill away from the game. removing sand veil would actually be a positive and healthy improvement in the metagame- or at least, sand veil+garchomp.

I was illustrating the point that being "a positive part of the metagame" does not mean it doesn't deserve to be banned, no matter what restrictions you place on it. If Garchomp is broken, ban it, it's that simple. No point regretting the decision because it could have been "positive".

 

[Thorhammer]

I was illustrating the point that being "a positive part of the metagame" does not mean it doesn't deserve to be banned, no matter what restrictions you place on it. If Garchomp is broken, ban it, it's that simple. No point regretting the decision because it could have been "positive".

Again, brokenness has nothing to do with this argument.

 

[Miscellaneous]

This is not a thread for the discussion of banning policy. This is a thread for the discussion of the current metagame, and thoughts on bans/ what might need to be a suspect. Let's try and stick to that.

Personally, I'm happy with the game. Nothing is obviously overpowering and there is a reasonable amount of diversity.

Regarding luck: although there is a limit (inconsistent), luck makes the game more fun and interesting. Pokemon will never be 100% skill, partially due to the guesswork/ prediction involved and partially due to luck. A game of pure skill is boring, as is a game of pure luck. A game that emphasises skill and requires thought is not boring, not for most people. I think I draw the line at banning sand veil, at least until Garchomp gets rough skin (I'm assuming Garchomp is the main issue). And if it sand veil does turn out to be overpowering, I'd be in favour of just banning Garchomp, because sand veil does not really apply to anything else in OU. Sand veil is not swift swim by any stretch of the imagination. In general, I'd oppose a sandstorm + sand veil ban.

 

[xcfrisco]

lol there was a huge garchomp thread that i made in gen 4 that I like to believe helped towards the decision to ban him back then. I'm sure a lot of those same arguments I made back then still apply.

Pretty much SS+Sand Veil is complete bullshit on a super sweeper like garchomp. This may be less of an issue though seeing as there are viable alternatives to SS as being the predominant weather type in OU (SS was EVERYWHERE back in gen 4)

 

[Delta 2777]

Ok so just because I wanted to know what people thought, if anyone wants to say what they think (and why) about the following likely-suspects I'd like to know what people think!!

Drizzle:
Reuniclus:
Garchomp/Landorus/Excadrill (or a complex Sandstorm ban):
Blaziken:
Latios:

There's also some stuff I left out like Thundurus and Mew that could very well be on the list, but from what I've seen these are the main suspects at the moment (obviously some of you may disagree with some stuff, like "WHY IS BLAZIKEN ON THE LIST HE'S WEAK!!" but bear with me). So yeah opinions please.

 

[Thorhammer]

This is not a thread for the discussion of banning policy. This is a thread for the discussion of the current metagame, and thoughts on bans/ what might need to be a suspect. Let's try and stick to that.

Personally, I'm happy with the game. Nothing is obviously overpowering and there is a reasonable amount of diversity.

Regarding luck: although there is a limit (inconsistent), luck makes the game more fun and interesting. Pokemon will never be 100% skill, partially due to the guesswork/ prediction involved and partially due to luck. A game of pure skill is boring, as is a game of pure luck. A game that emphasises skill and requires thought is not boring, not for most people. I think I draw the line at banning sand veil, at least until Garchomp gets rough skin (I'm assuming Garchomp is the main issue). And if it sand veil does turn out to be overpowering, I'd be in favour of just banning Garchomp, because sand veil does not really apply to anything else in OU. Sand veil is not swift swim by any stretch of the imagination. In general, I'd oppose a sandstorm + sand veil ban.

All proposed new bans involve the current metagame, therefore they are relevant.

Removing use of Sand Veil is not a ban proposed for the purpose of making Pokemon 100% skill. It is meant only to remove use of Evasion, which is an undesirable luck element in addition to the elements inherent in the game. For this reason, while Garchomp is the best example that a problem exists, the problem is a matter of principle, and therefore should apply equally to all Pokemon with Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, just like how it was not just certain Pokemon banned from using Double Team or Minimize.

I notice you argue a lot against a blanket ban of Sand Veil, but then you dismiss the option of banning Sand Veil + Sand Stream. Could you explain your reasoning behind this? Is it just because it's different from Swift Swim?

 

[IcyMan28]

Ok so just because I wanted to know what people thought, if anyone wants to say what they think (and why) about the following likely-suspects I'd like to know what people think!!

Drizzle:
Reuniclus:
Garchomp/Landorus/Excadrill (or a complex Sandstorm ban):
Blaziken:
Latios:

There's also some stuff I left out like Thundurus and Mew that could very well be on the list, but from what I've seen these are the main suspects at the moment (obviously some of you may disagree with some stuff, like "WHY IS BLAZIKEN ON THE LIST HE'S WEAK!!" but bear with me). So yeah opinions please.

I'll try and keep this short.

Drizzle: Not broken. It has its super sweepers like Thundurus and Tornadus, but they are manageable and Sand and Sun have their sweepers too. Leaning OU, but still unsure.

Reuniclus: Has always been manageable between keeping up offensive pressure, and is easy to revenge by capitalizing on its low speed. OU

Sand/Sand Suspects: Manageable as well. Landorus was the only real suspect in my eyes but it isn't all that hard to deal with between resistances and outrunning it, especially now that Sand Force has been corrected. Trying to disguise a Sand Veil ban as an application of Evasion clause is dumb, IMO, as anyone relying on sand veil to win their games will be unsuccessful 80% of the time. OU

Blaziken: Definitely a threat that requires planning and thinking ahead, but I don't see why that's an issue. Drought makes it a bitch though, while it is highly unpredictable regardless. Leaning OU but its debateable.

Latios: Im glad the discussion revolving around it finally stopped. It is manageable this time around, and is definitely OU in my eyes.

 

[Silent Storm]

Not really good at explaining (these are based off my own experience).

Drizzle: Not broken. Thundurus can be a pain to deal with sometimes, but I think I have enough safe guards in place to prevent him from setting up. Celebi with Thunder Wave has worked wonders when facing him.
Reuniclus: OU in my opinion. It's really just keeping up the pressure and preventing him from setting up. I haven't faced a Trick Room variant yet but the CM variant hasn't really done enough damage to my team.
Garchomp/Landorus/Excadrill: At first I used to hate Excadrill, but after making some slight tweaks to my team, he was manageable. Landorus is the same as Excadrill, only I haven't been swept by it before. Garchomp ranks as the second most annoying sand sweeper, but he's like the other two where after making a couple small changes, he just wasn't that overpowering, there are also too many things that outspeed and hit him hard. All three are OU.
Blaziken: I haven't faced enough Blaziken in Sun to really comment on it's power, but he's still reasonably manageable when I see it. N/A
Latios: Latios......isn't as much of a threat as people make it out to be :/. When I used Specs, it was more of a liability so I switched to LO which I liked more, but didn't have enough power. When I faced specs, it was too predictable and I was able to, at worst, cripple him with status -.- . Overrated and a definite OU Pokemon.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

Id change absolutely nothing and keep things the way they are now till next generation.

 

[Arc Tech]

I feel like this metagame is very delicately balanced (if balanced is the right word). All the big threats do seem to have their checks/counters, but seem to absolutely require those checks/counters.

I might be a bit biased though since I haven't really been able to crack this metagame. Last two rounds I got reqs in like a total of 5 or 6 hours on the last two days, but this round the best I had was 1300ish with a swift swim rain team towards the beginning (I think... it's been 6 weeks). I also feel as though it is ridiculously centralized - there is a variety of pokemon, but only a few teamstyles- mainly weather teams- which always seem to have roughly the same combinations of pokemon. If I have to see another team with Ninetails/Blaziken/Venusaur I'll...

Out of curiosity, have usage stats been posted? In particular, have common teammates stats been posted?

Also, I'd like to add Deoxys-S to that suspect list. It sets up spikes or screens ridiculously easily in the early game, and it has such a wide movepool along with decent enough attacking stats that it can kill what really threatens it (superpower for ttar, hp fire/fire punch for scizor/escavelier) or what tries to set up on it. I don't really see much changing from last gen, other than magic coat buff/magic mirror (which is rare still anyway) and nattorei making spikes easier to get as a whole.