np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

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Blaziken already has more than enough checks to make its uber status questionable. More checks just make its status more questionable, and eventually one can push it over the edge back into OU. Techniloom may well be that one.

If Protect forces Ditto to miss with HJK, it won't OHKO Ditto. So it won't make Ditto any less able to stop Blaziken.

Questionable? It got banned in one fell swoop! 70%+ is definitely not questionable! Latios and Deoxys-E are questionable, Blaziken is not. It was found to be broken by the majority of the community and you need to come to terms with that.

Did you not read my post? Techniloom isn't a notable check. Shanderra is barely a check, scarf keldeo is a check... but its no different than Garchomp. Really i'm 99% sure that the inclusion of said pokemon in the metagame wouldn't change a damn thing. I'd be willing to bet money on that.
 
Questionable? It got banned in one fell swoop! 70%+ is definitely not questionable! Latios and Deoxys-E are questionable, Blaziken is not. It was found to be broken by the majority of the community and you need to come to terms with that.

Your logic is horribly flawed. Let's say that in some freak scenario, Smogon banned Dragonite in Gen IV through a supermajority. Does that mean that Dragonite was without a doubt, Uber? No. Blaziken has less longevity and more resists to its STABS, compared to Latios, which does not make a case for Blaziken being overwhelmingly more threatening than Latios. It is harder to deal with Dragon STAB through team synergy.
 
Questionable? It got banned in one fell swoop! 70%+ is definitely not questionable! Latios and Deoxys-E are questionable, Blaziken is not. It was found to be broken by the majority of the community and you need to come to terms with that.

Did you not read my post? Techniloom isn't a notable check. Shanderra is a barely a check, scarf keldeo is a check... but its no different than Garchomp. Really i'm 99% sure that the inclusion of said pokemon in the metagame wouldn't change a damn thing. I'd be willing to bet money on that.
I can accept that Blaziken was banned. But while a supermajority of voters thought it was past what the metagame could handle, they didn't say it was far past what the metagame could handle. It may well be only slightly past that threshold, close enough that one more decent check and one more near-perfect check can bring it back to the other side of the threshold.

Every added check makes a difference. You say one check wouldn't change anything. Would two? Three? Five? Ten? Twenty? Where do you draw the line? eventually, you reach the point where one more check changes it from broken to not broken. And I would say Blaziken is right around that point.
 
You can't just say the next change is also going to bring checks though. What if the next change ends up breaking Blaziken even more? Specifically, Shandera support getting rid of Blaziken's counters such as Slowbro, Jellicent, Quagsire, Techniloom, Gliscor in the rain, etc.

It's fine where it is now. Once more checks come down, you can argue that it can be brought down. The nomination thread also serves the purpose of nominating things from Ubers to come back down to OU. However, I doubt you'll get enough support, and rightfully so.
 
I know it's best to avoid complex bans and whatnot, but couldn't we have just banned Speed Boost on Blaziken? Obvi Blaze isn't too much of a problem.
 
No. Blaziken is a package deal, we cannot pick and choose which aspects to ban. It's not like anyone would use Blaze Blaziken anyway.
 
You can't just say the next change is also going to bring checks though. What if the next change ends up breaking Blaziken even more? Specifically, Shandera support getting rid of Blaziken's counters such as Slowbro, Jellicent, Quagsire, Techniloom, Gliscor in the rain, etc.

It's fine where it is now. Once more checks come down, you can argue that it can be brought down. The nomination thread also serves the purpose of nominating things from Ubers to come back down to OU. However, I doubt you'll get enough support, and rightfully so.
Perhaps a better way to put it is that if and when some of those Pokemon are released, Blaziken will need to be retested. We'll see how it goes from there.

No. Blaziken is a package deal, we cannot pick and choose which aspects to ban. It's not like anyone would use Blaze Blaziken anyway.
People probably would, just in lower tiers.
 
i agree with above posters...
pk gaming you are so biased to the point where your saying don't even make sense...
you say that imposter ditto isn't a good check... are u serious?even if blaziken does run protect ditto only loses 50% of it's health with each miss.so if ditto has an odd hp he isn't 2hkoed by hjk meaning that even if you use protect twice ditto will can survive and ko you.that's hella good of a check.
also you say that shandera is almost a check...that's so not true.flash fire shandera is a perfect counter to protect blaziken as it is immune to the whole set.simple as that!also scarf shandera can come in to protectless blaziken in either hjk or sd,which almost always are adamant,outspeed and deal around 75% with hp ground...
you say that he already has good checks...so what?if one poke gets more checks even if they are worse then the existing ones that means that the new checks don't play a part to the nerf of the overpowred pokemon?are you serious?any new check makes a poke less strong...that's a given!and i mean ou-viable checks if we are talking about ou.
anyway you need to realize that 'cause blaziken is borderline broken so even if 2 or 3 new checks are added there is a good chance that he may come back to ou...
 
Reuniclus needs to go, that thing is too strong a wall.

Enough calm minds and your helpless

Have you tried killing it with violence?

Seriously I do not see how Reuniclus is even still talked about as suspect. Thrice it's been nominated and thrice it's failed miserably to gain even a majority of the vote. It has plenty of checks and an easily exploitable weakness in addition to low speed. What is it about this thing that people think makes it so broken?
 
But Suicune and Conkeldurr, and Cursepert and CMRachi are also similiar, not to mention Sigilyph.
EDIT: Ah, one reason is that you must pack Scizor or die. But seriously, if you think about it, Scizor is just the most "competitively viable" one. Be creative, I have seen Durant, Heracross and Golurk used as checks to more than one pokemon at once, one of which is Reun.
 
We needed some humor to lighten up this thread.

Seriously? No need to be rude and ostracize someone's opinion to try to propagandize people in this thread into believing that Reuniclus deserves no shot at being a suspect.

Slapping CBtar on every one of my teams to deal with Reuniclus is not fun.
 
No. Blaziken is a package deal, we cannot pick and choose which aspects to ban. It's not like anyone would use Blaze Blaziken anyway.

And Swift Swim Pokemon are combination deals?


I mean, why is it that we can do:

No Swift Swim + Drizzle

but we can't do:

No Speed Boost + Anything else
 
Seriously? No need to be rude and put down someone's opinion to try to propagandize people in this thread into believing that Reuniclus deserves no shot at being a suspect.

Slapping CBtar on every one of my teams to deal with Reuniclus is not fun.
It's not so much the notion as the reasoning.

Although the fact that people are demanding a fourth time that Reuniclus should be banned when it was already overwhelmingly voted OU three times already is getting to be fairly amusing as well. Might be a different story if they gave some new, solid reasoning to back it up, but that's not the case here. You can't just demand something like that.
 
This was supposed to be posted hours ago but apparently my computer decided it wanted to be difficult (which is why I moved back the arguments a bit). I thought it was lost until I hit the back button.
And apparently this is also @alexwolf now.

Blaziken already has more than enough checks to make its uber status questionable. More checks just make its status more questionable, and eventually one can push it over the edge back into OU. Techniloom may well be that one.

If Protect forces Ditto to miss with HJK, it won't OHKO Ditto. So it won't make Ditto any less able to stop Blaziken.

More then enough checks? I count 2 (slowbro and azumarill), and a few more which are only checks if you run two of them from a specific list (priority abusers capable of dealing 50%). You will need to apply offensive pressure constantly against a blaziken team, and if they're using memento... And it makes stall teams without Slowbro all but unplayable.

Blaziken used protect! Ditto uses HJK! Ditto crashes and hurts itself!
Blaziken switched in a ghost type! Bye Bye ditto! (or a HJK resist. Once ditto is released, Blaziken teams would make sure to run them).

Or:
Blaziken used protect! Ditto used Blaze Kick!
If Blaziken hasn't gotten to SD:
Ditto used Blaze kick *blaziken takes damage* Blaziken used HJK! bye bye ditto!

If Blaziken has SD'd: (Blaziken has a chance to survive +2 Blaze Kick after SR, can't be OHKO'd without).
Blaziken switches to Heatran! Ditto used Blaze kick! Lol thanks ditto! or
Blaziken switches to bulky water! Ditto used Blaze Kick! Hey that tickles!

Protect screws over choice scarf imposter ditto. Without choice scarf you're now taking a 50% gamble.
Not to mention ditto (or imposter) may end up banned itself. Not just interrupting/getting rid of your opponent's momentum but stealing all that they've worked to build up seems a tad too much too me. In addition, nothing else revenges any SD/NP/DD sweeper in the game (and then potentially proceeds to steal their sweep), and even against a stall team it has utility. You can steal their hazards, and if you kill their spinblocker you can even steal their spin. And if they have anything with trick... But I digress. I haven't played all that much DW (especially not recently) and it's way too early to be having discussions about him.
 
And Swift Swim Pokemon are combination deals?


I mean, why is it that we can do:

No Swift Swim + Drizzle

but we can't do:

No Speed Boost + Anything else

One reason is because it is impossible to figure out which side of the two halves of Drizzle and Swift Swim is broken. Is it the infinite rain? Or is it the Double Speed of Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo/Quilfish/Poliwrath/Gorebyss/Floatzel?

Ban the swift swimmers? Okay? All 8 of them? Is swift swim really that bad? No. Its bad with Infinite RAIN but okay on a timer. Ban the Drizzle? Really takes away the diversity of the metagame and can cause a cascade of bans towards sun/sand/etc.

And this leads to the second point, DRIZZLE IS A WEATHER AND AFFECTS THE METAGAME. Banning the swift swim combination with drizzle allows the other 30+ pokemon take use of rain and be viable and allow diversity to the metagame while effectively "balancing" drizzle.

Banning Speed Boost Blaziken does not affect any entire play-style, nor does it limit diversity. If Blaziken did NOT have speed boost he would be a pointless non-useful addition to a meta where we would basically make an exception for something that isn't even going to add any real diversity or prevent a cascade of bans. It is one pokemon. And we are not going to make exceptions unless it is very serious and beneficial to the metagame.
 
One reason is because it is impossible to figure out which side of the two halves of Drizzle and Swift Swim is broken. Is it the infinite rain? Or is it the Double Speed of Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo/Quilfish/Poliwrath/Gorebyss/Floatzel?

Ban the swift swimmers? Okay? All 8 of them? Is swift swim really that bad? No. Its bad with Infinite RAIN but okay on a timer. Ban the Drizzle? Really takes away the diversity of the metagame and can cause a cascade of bans towards sun/sand/etc.

And this leads to the second point, DRIZZLE IS A WEATHER AND AFFECTS THE METAGAME. Banning the swift swim combination with drizzle allows the other 30+ pokemon take use of rain and be viable and allow diversity to the metagame while effectively "balancing" drizzle.

Banning Speed Boost Blaziken does not affect any entire play-style, nor does it limit diversity. If Blaziken did NOT have speed boost he would be a pointless non-useful addition to a meta where we would basically make an exception for something that isn't even going to add any real diversity or prevent a cascade of bans. It is one pokemon. And we are not going to make exceptions unless it is very serious and beneficial to the metagame.
It's easy to isolate what's broken. Drizzle isn't broken with anything else, so it's the Pokemon that are the problem. Three Pokemon: Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops. There has never been any indication of Qwilfish, Poliwrath, Gorebyss, or Floatzel being broken under any conditions, nor for the other 12 fully-evolved Pokemon with Swift Swim. Restricting 19 Pokemon for the sake of 3 is not what fits with Smogon's minimalist bans policy.

Exceptions aren't something that are detrimental in the slightest unless they create a slippery slope. Any exception judged to be reasonably unlikely to cause a slippery slope should be used whenever it works, to fit with Smogon's minimalist bans policy. That determination matters based on what sort of ban it is, not what will happen as a result of the ban. There is no issue that is minor enough that we should be willing to have a worse metagame for it for the sake of preventing an exception and gaining nothing in return.
 
Reuniclus has plenty of stall-based checks and counters. Specially defensive ttar, CM roar latias, spiritomb, unaware quagsire (may need a bit of sp def), anything with encore that can deal 9%+ damage.

Blaziken on the other hand, has slowbro and azumarill, and possibly another priority (since stall has a lot of passive damage to bring Blaze into range). In order to stop blaziken, I had to keep constant offensive pressure on it to stop it from sweeping me. Considering +2 HJK OHKO's damn near every wall in the game, and Flare blitz or sun blaze kick takes out most of the rest, and shadow claw covering the few remaining... I just don't see how a stall team without slowbro or azumarill (who isn't exactly stall) can handle it.
 
It's easy to isolate what's broken. Drizzle isn't broken with anything else, so it's the Pokemon that are the problem. Three Pokemon: Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops. There has never been any indication of Qwilfish, Poliwrath, Gorebyss, or Floatzel being broken under any conditions, nor for the other 12 fully-evolved Pokemon with Swift Swim. Restricting 19 Pokemon for the sake of 3 is not what fits with Smogon's minimalist bans policy.

Exceptions aren't something that are detrimental in the slightest unless they create a slippery slope. Any exception judged to be reasonably unlikely to cause a slippery slope should be used whenever it works, to fit with Smogon's minimalist bans policy. That determination matters based on what sort of ban it is, not what will happen as a result of the ban. There is no issue that is minor enough that we should be willing to have a worse metagame for it for the sake of preventing an exception and gaining nothing in return.


I know that Kabutops, Kingdra, and Ludicolo were the front runners, and I KNOW that all the other swift swimmers weren't tested with out those main three gone. But seriously.

Quilfish was argued to be like another version of Kabutops in fourth gen, just with poison typing. I could EASILY see him taking Kabutops place, although the explosion nerf may not be as good, he still has SD, and Waterfall, and Aqua Jet, and Thunder Wave, Toxic Spikes, and Spikes. Not to mention poison typing to absorb toxic spikes.

Golduck has the same Special Attack and Speed as Kingdra, and can run an efficient calm mind set, or do the same thing Kingdra does with Choice Specs Hydro Pump. Albeit, with pure water typing and lack of dragon stab, but still a dangerous threat.

Poliwrath... Oh god, are you kidding me? Belly drum + Swift Swim? Really? You want that? Or how about Bulk Up?

Omastar is still dangerous, although slower than the average swift swimmer, it has shell smash AND 115 special attack and a decent move pool to boast is still a threat. Also has access to swift swim spikes, stealth rock, rapid spin, haze, knock off... Still one heck of a threat even if he decides to go supportive!

Gorebyss has been causing problems NOW with shell smash, and in swift swim, I am sure it would destroy just as wel, and same with Huntail.

Floatzel although only running off 105 base attack, Theoretically he could quickly take the spot of Kabutops/Quilfish if they were banned. Or run more of a supporting baton pass in rain set, that could prove quite powerful. And could quickly take a valuable spot.



Seriously, when I look at the list, there may be 5 that I can count that might be not a threat. Luvdisc, Lumineon, Armaldo, Mantine, Beartic... Seaking... I really don't want to ban those above mentioned pokemon so I Luvdisc might see some use in the rain. No, I don't care about that. Out of these 6 the only one I care about is Armaldo with Swift Swim.


The theory was the cascade. Most of the majority felt that those other pokemon I mentioned above would take the place of Kabutops and Kingdra and Ludicolo. And FFS... if those 3 were banned and those above mentioned threats didn't take their place? My mind would melt.
 
One reason is because it is impossible to figure out which side of the two halves of Drizzle and Swift Swim is broken. Is it the infinite rain? Or is it the Double Speed of Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo/Quilfish/Poliwrath/Gorebyss/Floatzel?

Ban the swift swimmers? Okay? All 8 of them? Is swift swim really that bad? No. Its bad with Infinite RAIN but okay on a timer. Ban the Drizzle? Really takes away the diversity of the metagame and can cause a cascade of bans towards sun/sand/etc.

And this leads to the second point, DRIZZLE IS A WEATHER AND AFFECTS THE METAGAME. Banning the swift swim combination with drizzle allows the other 30+ pokemon take use of rain and be viable and allow diversity to the metagame while effectively "balancing" drizzle.

Banning Speed Boost Blaziken does not affect any entire play-style, nor does it limit diversity. If Blaziken did NOT have speed boost he would be a pointless non-useful addition to a meta where we would basically make an exception for something that isn't even going to add any real diversity or prevent a cascade of bans. It is one pokemon. And we are not going to make exceptions unless it is very serious and beneficial to the metagame.

So in essence, you're saying that we're ALLOWED to treat pokemon as "combination deals" when we're not sure, but if we ARE, we HAVE to treat them as "package deals"?

Also, since when did we care how pokemon are after the ban? Clearly, if we ban a pokemon to Ubers, we don't care how much the pokemon potentially sucks afterwards. However, why do we suddenly care about how the Swift Swim pokemon would suck after they were theoretically banned?


Quilfish was argued to be like another version of Kabutops in fourth gen, just with poison typing.

Golduck has the same Special Attack and Speed as Kingdra, and can run an efficient calm mind set, or do the same thing Kingdra does with Choice Specs Hydro Pump. Albeit, with pure water typing and lack of dragon stab, but still a dangerous threat.

Poliwrath... Oh god, are you kidding me? Belly drum + Swift Swim? Really? You want that?

Omastar is still dangerous, although slower than the average swift swimmer, it has shell smash AND 115 special attack and a decent move pool to boast is still a threat. Also has access to swift swim spikes, stealth rock, rapid spin, haze, knock off... Still one heck of a threat even if he decides to go supportive!

Gorebyss has been causing problems NOW with shell smash, and in swift swim, I am sure it would destroy just as wel, and same with Huntail.

Floatzel although only running off 105 base attack, Theoretically he could quickly take the spot of Kabutops/Quilfish if they were banned. Or run more of a supporting baton pass in rain set, that could prove quite powerful.


Seriously, when I look at the list, there may be 5 that I can count that might be not a threat. Luvdisc, Lumineon, Armaldo, Mantine, Beartic... Seaking...


The theory was the cascade. Most of the majority felt that those other pokemon I mentioned above would take the place of Kabutops and Kingdra and Ludicolo. And FFS... if those 3 were banned and those above mentioned threats didn't take their place? My mind would melt.

This is simply ridiculous. If this was indeed the justification for ANY action, that just means we're reverting back to theorymon-based bans like those in gen III. If they really WOULD be broken, we should have tested them, not just theorymonned it out.

The fact remains that NONE of these pokemon were ever tested in the "other-swift-swimmers-are-gone" scenario, and that all we have is this crap theorymon which doesn't mean anything without actualy tests to back it up.
 
Oh my god how can you ignore something whats right in your face?, you cannot give 19 pokes double speed + a 50% boost to their stabs and not expect problems. Look at Omastar, it has 125 base special attack and reacher 400+ speed under drizzle and it has Hydro Pump, look at this thing and tell itd be just fine if it were allowed, may i remind you about how so many peo;le were complaining about how only Ferrothorn could barely survive specs hydro pump from Kingdra under rain, Omastar would rape.

THE ONLY REASON you didnt see any of those guys was because people were using Kabu, king and Ludi already. Theres no reason to believe they would not be monstrous. You say Theorymoning is useless?, were talking about over 19 pokes that would outspeed everything and have their stabs boosted all at once, people WILL have multiple of these guys on the same team, theres no reason not to.

I mean im seeing people using swift swim Mantine with just rain dance just to counter other people drizzle and totally rape sand & sun teams, freaking Mantine. Some people around here be underestimating how good rain is, it is too good.
 
Goddamnit, sometimes I wish ensoriki and Aldaron hadn't proposed the complex ban and we had gone with Pocket's proposal or just banned Swift Swim/the pokémon instead...

You can't just say the next change is also going to bring checks though. What if the next change ends up breaking Blaziken even more? Specifically, Shandera support getting rid of Blaziken's counters such as Slowbro, Jellicent, Quagsire, Techniloom, Gliscor in the rain, etc.

And we could also get Shell Smash Blaziken one day. "Oh boy".
 
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