np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Yoshiken]

Okay, I know it's been hyped 1000 times before, but I love DD Scrafty. Making a comeback against (some slightly weakened) Latios, Tyranitar, Excadrill and Ferrothorn from +1 is just beautiful. It's got amazing bulk, and LO Drain Punch is still the most thing to run.
The only issue I've had with it is 4 Move Syndrome. What three attacks do you guys go for in addition to DD? I've gone with Drain Punch, Stone Edge, Ice Punch at the moment, although I think I want to swap SE for Crunch/Fire Punch.

 

[haunter]

Scrafty doesn't really suffers from 4 moves syndrome. With stab on both dark and fighiting moves all it really needs are drain punch or HJK and crunch. Ice punch eliminates Gliscor which is the most common fighting resist in the game, so there's no real need for both SE and fire punch. Actually fire punch might be useful for Scizor if you're not using HJK, but in most cases it's not necessary.

If you use moxie and your opponent decides to send in some death fodder then you'll easily get a +2 Atk\+1 Spe and then you can proceed to sweep. I wish Scrafty had better HP, but if used correctly it's really awesome anyway.

 

[jle1076]

Yeah Lucario is better because they have to react in the right way or he can just sweep away


also, I run DD, Drain Punch, Crunch and Ice Punch. Dual Stab + Recovery + Coverage and Gliscor killer is all this fun little bastard needs

 

[AHShadow]

Since we're talking about Scrafty, any recommendations for good teammates? I'm thinking that Latias pairs up well with him, trying to find more hahaha.

 

[Cold Fusion]

So, is it a good idea to use Chansey/Blissey as set-up fodder for NP Luke? Presumably, no.

 

[alphatron]

Whenever I run Blissey, I run fire blast anyway. But that's just me. She is setup fodder for you otherwise.

Alright guys, partners for DDMence gogogo.
Works best in rain or sun to outspeed weather pokes. Needs screen support because shit hits too hard. Needs a spinner because SR+LO=fail. And finally, it needs a way to tell scarf landorus to gtfo.

 

[PI-Dimension]

Classic: Magnezone

 

[Hauntzer]

Since we're talking about Scrafty, any recommendations for good teammates? I'm thinking that Latias pairs up well with him, trying to find more hahaha.

Rotom-W is a decent partner (assuming the opponent has Ferrothorn or specially defensive Forretress) Volt Switch to Scrafty and set up on their faces.

 

[prem]

Whenever I run Blissey, I run fire blast anyway. But that's just me. She is setup fodder for you otherwise.

Alright guys, partners for DDMence gogogo.
Works best in rain or sun to outspeed weather pokes. Needs screen support because shit hits too hard. Needs a spinner because SR+LO=fail. And finally, it needs a way to tell scarf landorus to gtfo.

ddance mence hates rain, fire blast is weakened making skarm and zong hard counters. it likes sun the best because most sunsweepers cannot significantly deal damage to dragons and it has a boosted fire blast. and no extra passive damage

 

[Davy Jones]

Whenever I run Blissey, I run fire blast anyway. But that's just me. She is setup fodder for you otherwise.

Alright guys, partners for DDMence gogogo.
Works best in rain or sun to outspeed weather pokes. Needs screen support because shit hits too hard. Needs a spinner because SR+LO=fail. And finally, it needs a way to tell scarf landorus to gtfo.

Okay, Salamence is probably better in sun since rain nerfs Fire Blast. If you run Roost over Fire Blast, it doesn't matter which weather you use. Magnezone is always a great partner, since it's got great typing synergy and traps the Steel-type Pokemon that give Salamence trouble.

For Rapid Spin, the standard options work just fine. Forretress is a good option because of its typing, so it can switch in on stuff like Scizor and Ferrothorn that Salamence lures in and start setting up hazards or get rid of them with Rapid Spin.

I personally don't think it really needs Reflect or Light Screen support as long as you're smart about switching it in and taking advantage of Intimidate, but having that support definitely helps. Any of the standard users of Reflect and Light Screen (Deoxys-S, Espeon, Bronzong, etc.) should work well.

If you try to use it outside of weather, you definitely need a way to get Excadrill out of the way. Skarmory or Bronzong can take it on pretty well and can also set up entry hazards that Salamence can take advantage of with all the switches it forces.

Anything that can lure Ground-type, Fighting-type, Grass-type, or Bug-type attacks for Salamence to switch into will probably make a pretty good partner. Trying to switch into Fire-type or Water-type attacks isn't such a good idea since as likely as not they're boosted by their respective weathers.

Wish support generally helps with Salamence's frailty and compensates for the residual damage Salamence usually takes. Jirachi resists all of Salamence's weaknesses and can pass 200 HP Wishes, while Blissey/Chansey and Vaporeon have huge HP stats and can lure some of the attacks that Salamence likes to switch into (Fighting-type and Grass-type attacks, respectively).

 

[Cherub Agent]

I'm loving this bulky DDScrafty set.

Scrafty
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 160 HP / 98 Att / 252 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch

Yeah, I know. It starts off weak. But the thing is that with this Scrafty, at least two DDs are practically guaranteed. Status certainly doesn't bother him, and he has quite reliable recovery. Just set up on walls that lack a pHazing move. Not so sure on the EVs, but the HP gives him defenses of 311 / 266 / 266, which is really bulky, and I think the HP is a Leftovers number. Jolly and max speed are still needed.

 

[blarajan]

I really like scrafty and reuniclus together.

 

[badabing]

Even if it can get 2 boosts, dd scrafty needs moxie to be effective otherwise its attack output is pretty underwhelming (bulkier spreads dont help that either) and it becomes easier to play around with foddering, pivots, etc. IMO with scrafty just choose between dd with an all out sweeper spread or specially defensive bulk up.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Well, it's proved effective to me. After two, his attack exceeds 600, and his speed reaches 590. His considerable bulk means that he isn't easy to KO either. Bring him in once something like CB Haxorus has done it's business. More like a midgame cleaner.

Speaking of CB haxorus, has anyone tried an "extreme power" duo of him and LO Darmanitan? I really want to give that a go...

 

[alphatron]

ddance mence hates rain, fire blast is weakened making skarm and zong hard counters. it likes sun the best because most sunsweepers cannot significantly deal damage to dragons and it has a boosted fire blast. and no extra passive damage

I was thinking rain might be good for Mence's boosted hydro pump, especially since it removes heatran, a very common switch in to outrage, from the picture entirely. It also smashes physically bulky skarm and 2hkos bronzong. Then again, ferrothorn is more common than heatran and will get in the way, forcing you to run something like brick break.

Also...252 spA nuetral natured infernape LO fire blast vs. 0/0 naive salamence: 65.9% - 77.6%
I wouldn't just toss him out there against enemy sun teams. Some chloro sweepers actually run hp ice and as you can see, the boosted fire attacks are hitting him a bit too hard for comfort. Making use of intimidate sounds great though.

Will look at Davy Jones' post when I'm not busy.

 

[Jaetheho]

and also, sawsbuck and venuaur, probably the two most popular/potent chlorosweepers, get STAB return and sludge bomb, respectively, to kill dragons. they both OHKO SALAMENCE without ANY BOOSTS.

 

[CBshuckle]

so when is this round ending?

 

[Katakiri]

and also, sawsbuck and venuaur, probably the two most popular/potent chlorosweepers, get STAB return and sludge bomb, respectively, to kill dragons. they both OHKO SALAMENCE without ANY BOOSTS.

63.7% - 75.2% From Sludge Bomb is not a OHKO. In fact with Stealth Rock calc'd in, you have a 1.1% chance to KO Salamence. Sawsbuck isn't KOing him either and Mence's Intimidate only lowers those chances.

*insert clever segway*

A lot of Pokemon love Sun teams because Fire is such a common coverage type & Sun often gives Pokemon 3 STABs because of it. But what people don't realize is that damn near anything can be run on a Sun team because of that fact. Anything but Water-types, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, & Abomasnow can function on a Sun team as the pros normally out-weigh the cons.

Hell, if it wasn't for Sand Stream, Tyranitar & Hippowdon would make good Sun Pokemon. Suddenly Hippowdon can actually deal with the pesky Ferrothorn with Fire Fang as well as help out it's team by taking care of Dragons with Ice Fang or Roar.

Even Pokemon like Jirachi that gets it's Fire weakness amplified still can be even more potent on a Sun team than in any other weather. Take Ferrothorn, Jirachi's literal thorn in it's side, suddenly Ferrothorn can't switch in so freely as Jirachi's Fire Punch will annihilate it the next turn.

Still not convinced? Breloom & Virizion. No Chlorophyll? No need for a Fire Attack? Weak to Fire even?! Why would they be good in Sun?! Their typing lets them blow away all other weather starters and their common partners making Ninetales' life a lot more cushy. If they have an extra move slot they can even carry Sunny Day to set-up a temporary 5 turns of Sun for it's team right in the face of the other team's weather starter.

I could honestly go on & on about Pokemon that you would never think to see on a Sun team, and let alone do well, but once I get going it's hard for me to stop, so I'll end that there./rant

 

[Prankster]

so when is this round ending?

When the smogon server is working again, thats what I'm guessing. The mods have a lot of work to do. BTW Someone said that they already voted/ nominated but the thing was not put up.
On the above post, I remember how leafeon was predicted to be better than Sawsbuck in sun, but I guess jumpkick and STAB normal really pushed Sawsbuck above her.

 

[alphatron]

Kata is right. Which is why I get a little irked when I see people saying that sun can't run anything to deal with its weak points.

And leafeon sucks all around. All its good for is natural gift and baton passing quick swords dances. I'd rather use Celebi to baton pass Nasty plots to flame charge heatran.

 

[marilli]

Well, mence usually kills life orb, so your calculation does show how mence can't really beat more than 1 member after getting into sure-kill range from those sweepers without boost, but w/e.

@ Katakiri's point off the tangent:
Well, duh. For any weather, rather a large population fall into these categories:
1. Weather Inducer / Major abuser 2. Puts pressure on other weather (starter) 3. Covers typing holes / prevents your own weather used against yourself 4. Minor/marginal benefit
Yes, sun can use a variety of Pokemon--but so can any other weather lol. Other than plain bad use of common sense (like Kyurem in sand, or Victini in rain, or starmie in sun) I realize that you like tooting sun's horns, but that's not really special.

edit: if people really think that sun can't cover its holes, then lol. didn't think that that was the common sentiment here

edit2:meh, hp fire/spinning is what starmie has to offer i guess, but I seriously don't like how it gets just raped by tar without the water STAB. better example of lack of common sense would be something like toxicroak in sun, I guess.

 

[spweasel]

Other than plain bad use of common sense (like [...] starmie in sun) I realize that you like tooting sun's horns, but that's not really special.

Actually, Starmie is fairly common on Sun teams as a Rapid Spinner with good Special Attack, Speed, and Natural Cure. It just runs a Psychic STAB instead of a Water one. I've used it and it actually holds its own pretty well. Just don't expect to take out any opposing Heatran with it.

 

[Pocket]

iirc in alphatron's archived warstory, he uses an HP Fire Starmie to bang up Ferrothorn.

 

[Meru]

Has anybody tried making a (stall) team around Hippowdon? Specifically SR/Slack Off/EQ/Coverage instead of Roar in that fourth slot. The coverage provided by Elemental Fangs and Stone Edge give Hippowdon the power to specify itself as a hard counter for certain things such as Gliscor, Volcarona, SD Scizor, etc.

He can switch into Ninetales better than TTar ever could with his reliable recovery and can also switch into a few things on Rain like Toxicroak. Curious to hear people's experiences with either Physically or Specially Defensive...

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I don't tend to use stall teams, but the last Sand team I was working on had Hippowdon and hell, Roar sucked too much. Short of working as a panic button against Volcarona, I'd more often than not be annoyed at the fact Hippo couldn't handle Balloon Excadrill anymore. In the end, I found Stone Edge to be the best option because, among other reasons, people had the weird habit of switching Volcarona in on Hippo and starting Quiver Dancing, probably thinking I had Ice Fang for Gliscor.


Yeah, I had Volcarona issues. If it weren't for that, I'd have gone with Ice Fang, or Fire Fang even.