Metagame np: PU Stage 10 - A Better Place, A Better Tree - QUAGSIRE IS BANNED

g

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ANNOUNCEMENT

So yeah after a lot of discussion the PU council has decided to suspect test Quagsire.

REASONING
Quagsire got to PU as a result of the latest tier shift and, thanks to its qualities, in a relatively short time span it has managed to establish itself as a top-tier defensive threat.
Its Unaware ability is one of the best in the game, since it allows it to act as a reliable answer to a number of threatening boosting sweepers such as Swords Dance Pawniard, Calm Mind Duosion, or Sub + SD Bouffalant. This makes Quagsire extremely effective on stall builds since they have otherwise annoying threats covered and can focus on dealing with other PU Pokemon more easily.

Quagsire is also a decent physical wall by itself, boasting a good defensive typing in Water + Ground, above average physical bulk when fully invested, and, most importantly, instant reliable recovery. Quagsire, for the most part, is able to handle non-Grass-type physical attackers such as Monferno, Floatzel, and Mawile, although it can struggle to deal with some more powerful Choice Band users such as Stoutland or Dodrio.

As far as its shortcomings are concerned, Quagsire's lackluster special bulk leaves it easily taken advantage of by almost any moderately strong special attackers, whilst its low attacking stats make it reliant on the likes of Scald or Toxic to pressure switchins. Quagsire's defensive typing, for the most part excellent, does leave it with a crippling 4x Grass weakness. This means that Quagsire is very susceptible to Grass-type moves that are often carried in form of Hidden Power on Electric-types and Energy Ball on Pokemon such as Ninetales, in addition to Grass Knot Monferno and Seed Bomb Ursaring/Arbok, whilst also being easily handled by the Grass types in the tier themselves, as they can come in consistently without worrying too much about anything Quagsire throws at them. Lastly, Quagsire is also quite susceptible to status such as Burn and Toxic, especially when running Curse, but teammate support can alleviate this heavily.


SOMETHING MORE IN DEPTH ON BOTH SIDES CAN BE FOUND
HERE, HERE,
AND HERE

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Curse / Toxic
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Recover


The suspect test will last for two weeks after the ladder is implemented. The deadline will be Friday 23rd midnight EST.

The requirements for this test will be the same as last time.The reqs will be 2800 coil with a B value of 9.0. Also you need at least 75 gxe. This might be adjusted depending on the ladder activity.
Code:
GXE N
100 18
90 25
85 32
80 46
78 58
75 91
72 222
To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula
N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800) In which you replace GXE with your current GXE

ALSO DO NOTE THAT THERE WILL BE SUSPECT TOURS MOST LIKELY ;)
kill whiteys anty is a cuck

***PSA***: Put effort into your posts. Any posts lacking content will be deleted and possibly infracted.

tagging The Immortal to get this up
 
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CBU

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Hello everyone.I only recently came to the PU tier and my only actual contact with the tier was laddering for my reqs during this time. So i am well aware that my opinion does not mean much but i would like to drop my thoughts on quagsire regardless. Now the first thing that needs to be asked is what exactly is quagsire's role on a team. It does not have the necessary bulk to be called a wall and as such cannot mindlessly switch into moves it does not resist. Couple that with the fact i didn't see any quagsire used on a team that wasn't stall makes me believe that quag is not a broken wall that cannot be taken down. On the contrary it's only viable role is making PU stall not as weak to setup sweepers(provided it provides 0 help against set up sweepers with grass coverage). Taking all that into consideration i personally came to 2 conclusions:
  • Is quagsire healthy for the current PU meta? No
  • Is quagsire broken in the current PU meta?Also No
 

pancake

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Hello everyone.I only recently came to the PU tier and my only actual contact with the tier was laddering for my reqs during this time. So i am well aware that my opinion does not mean much but i would like to drop my thoughts on quagsire regardless. Now the first thing that needs to be asked is what exactly is quagsire's role on a team. It does not have the necessary bulk to be called a wall and as such cannot mindlessly switch into moves it does not resist. Couple that with the fact i didn't see any quagsire used on a team that wasn't stall makes me believe that quag is not a broken wall that cannot be taken down. On the contrary it's only viable role is making PU stall not as weak to setup sweepers(provided it provides 0 help against set up sweepers with grass coverage). Taking all that into consideration i personally came to 2 conclusions:
  • Is quagsire healthy for the current PU meta? No
  • Is quagsire broken in the current PU meta?Also No
I can't really tell if you are pro-ban or anti-ban from your argument, but I think you're missing the point here. It's already been established that Quag itself is not the problem. The main problem is that Stall is broken AS A DIRECT RESULT of Quagsire being in the tier. The setup sweepers that typically deal with stall no longer deal with it. In order to break, say Dundies stall, you have to have one of three mons: Specs Camerupt, Modest Gorebyss with the moveset of Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Psychic and a Life Orb, and simisear with a trapinch as a teammate. PU simply does not have that many powerful mons that can break well-played stall. The fact that you have to run one of a few specific sets on mons just to have a chance to beat stall shows just how unhealthy this version of stall is for the environment here. Obviously, Quagsire is the main problem that is making stall unhealthy.
 

MZ

Ban all DLC
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PU Leader
I will be hosting a suspect tour at 12pm est (17 GMT) this saturday. Don't miss it!
e: yes, quagsire is allowed, be prepared for the possibility of the tour taking an hour or two
 
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2xTheTap

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Enough time has passed and I'm no longer busy with work, so I'll post now:

Teddeh and galbia touched on a lot of what I wanted to say already, but there are some other arguments that haven't been considered yet as to why Quagsire provides some measure of balance to the tier, and therefore, should not be banned.

Firstly, there has already been a meta imbalance here for a long time, in which stall was largely considered an inferior team archetype due to being too matchup-reliant to consistently cover the plethora of stall- and wallbreakers that PU has to offer. Separately, more reliable playstyles like offense and bulky offense have often struggled with slow setup sweepers like CM Clefairy, AA+CM Duosion, and CroMuk + trapper cores. If you weren't in the habit of incorporating stopgap measures like Taunt, Encore, ChoiceTrick, or phazing moves into your offensive teams, you'd likely lose to one of these Pokemon. Quagsire deals with these two problems simultaneously; not only does it address some of stall's and balance's issues by hampering the effectiveness of setup sweepers like Pawniard and Mawile, but it also quashes many of these slow wincons that have plagued both offensive and defensive teams alike.

Up until Quagsire dropped, slow wincons like CM Clefairy, Duosion, and CroMuk were very difficult to account for reliably during the teambuilding process. To exemplify this notion, there are some teams built by council members in our teambuilding shop that were Clefairy weak to the point that niche, and most likely, inferior options like Heavy Slam Golem were used to cover that gap. Duosion is similarly difficult to take down, in that it'll often require Trick, Taunt, Encore, or phazing moves to deal with once it's powered up if you're lacking a Dark-type or x4 resist like Metang. Out of these three, Muk is arguably the most difficult to stop, and was recently on the brink of a suspect - just to ensure you weren't weak to it, a Steel-type on every team was almost mandatory before Quagsire came down from NU due to how common Muk + Probopass or Muk + Trapinch were. It was to the point, and Anty can confirm this via our chats with each other in Discord, I was actually looking at Eviolite Wooper as a counter to Muk. Even if you did run a Steel-type, that wasn't foolproof, as Muk could simply run a different set with Fire / Fighting coverage with a more offensive set for Probopass, Mawile, and Pawniard, or just Rest / Curse / Fire Punch / Poison Jab for breaking past other, more passive Steels like Bronzor. Or, if you decided to use a different Normal-resist that wasn't a Steel-type, you still risked being poisoned on the switch by Poison Jab, and weakened to the point Muk could still come in late-game and create a sweep.
However, Quagsire's presence here has made it so that slow wincons that have historically been difficult to build for now have a more reliable answer, and there is a greater degree of balance in the tier, in which defensive styles of play are no longer completely overshadowed by offensive ones.

I would also posit that, rather than Quagsire being what pushes these defensive archetypes over the edge, it is instead Muk's presence together with Quagsire, and so looking at Quagsire by itself is a rather shortsighted response in terms of fixing our meta's current problems. It's been well ingrained by this point that some of the best ways to beat slow wincons like Quagsire or more defensive styles in general are status (sometimes in the form of Toxic Spikes), Trick+Choice items, and Knock Off to remove Eviolite or Leftovers, but Muk protects Pokemon that are susceptible to all of these problems, almost single-handedly. It takes Knock Off for its teammates via Sticky Hold and checks common users of the move (Leafeon); it prevents other components of stall from being disabled via ChoiceTrick by users like Rotom-F and Mr. Mime (again, via Sticky Hold); it soaks up Toxic Spikes via its Poison typing; and it absorbs status via RestTalk, thereby taking some of the pressure off of clerics like Altaria to use Heal Bell, which in turn preserves Heal Bell's 8 PP and keeps stall safe from status more effectively in longer battles.

To me, Muk is the primary concern as it is much more centralizing in how it forces teams to run Steel-types (or, if Normal resists like Golem are being used for this purpose instead, to keep them healthy over the course of the match knowing both that most Normal resists lack recovery and how high Muk's chance for Poison is with Poison Jab). Traditional tactics for beating Muk-based stall like ChoiceTrick simply do not work reliably anymore; separately, if you were to examine Quagsire's place on stall, it'd still be at least beatable by boosters, even knowing Unaware's effects, because of how widespread grass coverage is (ex. Ninetales' Energy Ball, Simisear's Grass Knot), and because of how exploitable Quagsire's special defense can be (boosters like NP LO Mr. Mime still 2HKO 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire with Psychic or Dazzling Gleam). With Grass coverage being ubiquitous in PU, and many natural checks or walls existing to combat Quagsire, the current problems with stall right now would probably be solved by removing Muk with a later suspect, and keeping Quagsire in the tier now.

In addition to Quagsire addressing this meta imbalance by improving the usability of defensive styles, as well as threatening the dominance of slow setup sweepers like CroMuk, CM Clefairy, Duosion, I think how centralizing Quagsire is has been overstated a fair bit. You do not have to go off the beaten path and run lures that would be ineffective in matches where Quagsire isn't present on the other side of the field.
While lures like Grass Knot Metang and Mawile (watch me use it here for laughs), HP Grass Rampardos, Giga Drain Muk, Seed Bomb Arbok and Ursaring, HP Grass Probopass do improve your matchup against Dundies' stall team, which is currently being spammed on the ladder, I believe there are many other ways of beating stall built with Quagsire without negatively affecting your matchup in other cases.
The 'you need Grass coverage on everything that Quagsire beats' argument falls flat if you took a hard look at its current forms of counterplay, and what has changed in the tier recently: basically, more Water-types have defaulted to Grass coverage (ex. HP Grass Politoed on teams where HP Electric isn't as necessary for Pelipper or Swanna). Quagsire's ability to act as a Volt stop also means that Zebstrika will be forced to choose between HP Ice for Dragon-types like Altaria or Gabite, HP Grass for Quagsire as well as a stronger hit on SpDef Golem, or HP Water for Camerupt and Golem given how much traction Band Golem and Specs Camerupt have gained in the last couple of months (due in part to Muk dropping). Raichu can also optionally run Grass Knot on Nasty Plot sets, but for the most part, even Electric-types have not changed that much in the face of Quagsire, which furthers the point that the degree to which Quagsire "warps the meta around it" has been exaggerated. Essentially, I argue that there are more than enough options for beating Quagsire-based stall and balance without negatively affecting your matchup against other playstyles, some of which I'll post now:


Rampardos @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Superpower

Rather than using HP Grass on Rampardos as some have suggested, I think Mold Breaker will be more consistent for breaking these current variations on stall. Mold Breaker means Quagsire's Unaware will no longer negate Swords Dance boosts, Earthquake nails Bronzor by bypassing Levitate, and SD LO Stone Edge or Rock Slide OHKOes Avalugg through Sturdy.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Rampardos Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 468-554 (119 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
^(Using Dundies' spread for Avalugg)

(Jolly)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Rampardos Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 325-383 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Adamant)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Rampardos Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 356-420 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Rampardos Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 359-424 (112.8 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


As some pro-suspect users have said, it's true that Quagsire changes the way you'll play around and build for stall; rather than using traditional stallbreaking boosters like Pawniard, you'll see either more choiced breakers that are able to 2HKO Quagsire, or boosting Pokemon with Grass-type coverage like Ninetales or Simisear (special breakers still work, regardless). Predictably, Pokemon that fill these criteria like Ninetales are seeing a resurgence in the meta, as The Jungle Fox and Akir have talked about in this thread and in VR.

Both Ninetales and Simisear have the tools to dismantle defensive teams based around Quagsire, without losing relevance in other matchups. They both have dark Coverage for Grumpig in Knock Off and Dark Pulse; Hidden Power Ice handles Altaria and other Dragons that are able to switch into Fire-types like Vibrava; conversely, Altaria with only Toxic + Flamethrower is completely walled by Substitute Ninetales; Audino, Bronzor, and Muk are all KOed by +2 LO Fire Blasts; Muk is OHKOed by +2 LO Psyshock from Ninetales; and finally, LO Energy Ball or LO Grass Knot OHKO Quagsire. Just don't Nasty Plot against Encore users on stall like Audino, and you'll be fine.

Simisear @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Focus Blast / Knock Off
- Nasty Plot

Ninetales @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Energy Ball
- Fire Blast
- Psyshock / Hidden Power [Ice] / Substitute

+2 248 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 416-491 (100.4 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 248 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 269-317 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


There's no real downside to building with hazard stack right now, regardless of whether you're building offense or balance. For example, Taunt Quilladin provides a great deal of counterplay to current variations of Quagsire stall by Taunting and preventing both recovery and setup globally, whittling away each grounded Pokemon's HP via Spikes, preventing SR from going up, hitting Muk on the switch with Zen Headbutt, and most notably, checking Quagsire with STAB Wood Hammer.

You lose nothing by using Quilladin against other archetypes like Balance or Offense too, as Zen Headbutt nails Monferno on the switch, Taunt prevents Vullaby from removing Spikes, Drain Punch lets it beat Probopass, Pawniard, and Cacturne, and its pure Grass typing and physical bulk allow it to switch into Golem's Earthquake. Quilladin was recently moved down in VR by other council members, but I'm still an advocate for its use in this current metagame for the above reasons.

Roselia performs similarly and can also stack Spikes in order to circumvent Audino's ability to pivot around special threats thanks to the HP it regains both because of Regenerator and Wish. However, Toxic Spikes remain less effective in this meta due to Muk's presence on stall and in general.

There are still additional Pokemon to look at, like Freeze-Dry users (especially Lapras) that are adept at dismantling stall, but this post is too long already.

---

To sum things up, I believe Quagsire to be a balancing force in the meta as it provides a more reliable answer to slow wincons via Unaware, and it allows previously matchup reliant styles of play to be more consistent. And while stall may be difficult to deal with right now, I think the problem has been misdiagnosed: Muk is a large part of what is preventing stall from being beaten by conventional means that would have normally done the job, like Knock Off, Toxic Spikes, and ChoiceTrick. And finally, the degree to which Quagsire is overcentralizing has been exaggerated, as standard options for dealing with stall even with Quagsire's presence, like Spikes, sweepers such as Rampardos, Simisear, and Ninetales all still work, while still maintaining relevance outside of these specific matchups.
 
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Anty

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I would also posit that, rather than Quagsire being what pushes these defensive archetypes over the edge, it is instead Muk's presence together with Quagsire, and so looking at Quagsire by itself is a rather shortsighted response in terms of fixing our meta's current problems. It's been well ingrained by this point that some of the best ways to beat slow wincons like Quagsire or more defensive styles in general are status (sometimes in the form of Toxic Spikes), Trick+Choice items, and Knock Off to remove Eviolite or Leftovers, but Muk protects Pokemon that are susceptible to all of these problems, almost single-handedly. It takes Knock Off for its teammates via Sticky Hold and checks common users of the move (Leafeon); it prevents other components of stall from being disabled via ChoiceTrick by users like Rotom-F and Mr. Mime (again, via Sticky Hold); it soaks up Toxic Spikes via its Poison typing; and it absorbs status via RestTalk, thereby taking some of the pressure off of clerics like Altaria to use Heal Bell, which in turn preserves Heal Bell's 8 PP and keeps stall safe from status more effectively in longer battles.
I have heard plenty of users say 'Quagsire isn't the problem, but Quagsire in combination with x and y', but this on its own isn't an anti-ban argument, it is admitting something wrong with the meta, and given how all those arguments are based around Quagsire (Quagsire and Muk, Quagsire with Altaria and Bronzor), this makes me more confident that Quagsire is broken. Secondly, I think the anti-stall strategies Quagsire prevents are much more crucial than the ones Muk prevents. Trick has never been a good enough way to break stall, you cannot guarantee you can lure the 'right' Pokemon in (for example I played Dundies with his stall variant but with Sliggoo over Muk, he had Trick Rotom-fan but it did nothing as Sliggoo absorbed the trick and Dundies' team did not capitalise on that), additionally Muk trying to absorb a Trick from Scarf Mime seems fairly silly given most don't run Trick but run a SE STAB. Further more you can use other status absorbing Pokemon on stall (Munchlax/Sliggoo/etc, there are lots of possibilities), and there is such a wide range of Knock Off users Muk cannot hope to check them all (Muk cannot switch into SD or CB Dodrio, and definitely not stuff like Dodrio). Toxic Spikes would be effective, but the best users all primarily run Spikes (all but Frogadier) which you later say beat stall anyway.

To me, Muk is the primary concern as it is much more centralizing in how it forces teams to run Steel-types (or, if Normal resists like Golem are being used for this purpose instead, to keep them healthy over the course of the match knowing both that most Normal resists lack recovery and how high Muk's chance for Poison is with Poison Jab). Traditional tactics for beating Muk-based stall like ChoiceTrick simply do not work reliably anymore; separately, if you were to examine Quagsire's place on stall, it'd still be at least beatable by boosters, even knowing Unaware's effects, because of how widespread grass coverage is (ex. Ninetales' Energy Ball, Simisear's Grass Knot), and because of how exploitable Quagsire's special defense can be (boosters like NP LO Mr. Mime still 2HKO 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire with Psychic or Dazzling Gleam). With Grass coverage being ubiquitous in PU, and many natural checks or walls existing to combat Quagsire, the current problems with stall right now would probably be solved by removing Muk with a later suspect, and keeping Quagsire in the tier now.
Muk never forces teams to run Steel-types, Ground-types are also effective checks among other Pokemon (which I listed in my Muk suspect post). Again, Trick is never a good enough stop to slow set up sweepers, as a miss predict (though it forces them out) could mean you lose to that Pokemon later. I will comment on the set up sweepers wrong later, but I don't think you have given sufficient reasoning as to why we should be banning Muk over Quagsire, considering they both stop a good amount of strategies which can normally break stall.

In addition to Quagsire addressing this meta imbalance by improving the usability of defensive styles, as well as threatening the dominance of slow setup sweepers like CroMuk, CM Clefairy, Duosion, I think how centralizing Quagsire is has been overstated a fair bit. You do not have to go off the beaten path and run lures that would be ineffective in matches where Quagsire isn't present on the other side of the field.
You can argue Muk does the same thing given how bulkier teams got notably when it dropped, as it can check plenty of special attackers. Also the lures which you mention below are less effective in plenty of normal matchups, and sometimes they are necessary given it is difficult to fit one of the more reliable stallbreakers on your team.

While lures like Grass Knot Metang and Mawile (watch me use it here for laughs), HP Grass Rampardos, Giga Drain Muk, Seed Bomb Arbok and Ursaring, HP Grass Probopass do improve your matchup against Dundies' stall team, which is currently being spammed on the ladder, I believe there are many other ways of beating stall built with Quagsire without negatively affecting your matchup in other cases.
The 'you need Grass coverage on everything that Quagsire beats' argument falls flat if you took a hard look at its current forms of counterplay, and what has changed in the tier recently: basically, more Water-types have defaulted to Grass coverage (ex. HP Grass Politoed on teams where HP Electric isn't as necessary for Pelipper on Swanna). Quagsire's ability to act as a Volt stop also means that Zebstrika will be forced to choose between HP Ice for Dragon-types like Altaria or Gabite, HP Grass for Quagsire as well as a stronger hit on SpDef Golem, or HP Water for Camerupt and Golem given how much traction Band Golem and Specs Camerupt have gained in the last couple of months (due in part to Muk dropping). Raichu can also optionally run Grass Knot on Nasty Plot sets, but for the most part, even Electric-types have not changed that much in the face of Quagsire, which furthers the point that the degree to which Quagsire "warps the meta around it" has been exaggerated. Essentially, I argue that there are more than enough options for beating Quagsire-based stall and balance without negatively affecting your matchup against other playstyles, some of which I'll post now:
I don't think anyone serious was saying 'you need Grass coverage on everything' to beat Quagsire, rather that was said about one or two pokemon like Duosion. No one is suggesting Quagsire is a primary Electric-type switch in, and no one would ever switch it into Golem without scouting first (camel too). Raichu has been pretty ineffective as shown by the dominance of other Electric-types, and it can beat a certain stall team, but if the opponent brings something like a Sliggoo then your stallbreaker will be doing nothing.



Rampardos @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Superpower

Rather than using HP Grass on Rampardos as some have suggested, I think Mold Breaker will be more consistent for breaking these current variations on stall. Mold Breaker means Quagsire's Unaware will no longer negate Swords Dance boosts, Earthquake nails Bronzor by bypassing Levitate, and SD LO Stone Edge or Rock Slide OHKOes Avalugg through Sturdy.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Rampardos Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 468-554 (119 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
^(Using Dundies' spread for Avalugg)

(Jolly)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Rampardos Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 325-383 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Adamant)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Rampardos Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 356-420 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Rampardos Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 359-424 (112.8 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Firstly, I don't get how listing stallbreakers helps your argument about Muk being more broken than Quagsire (especially when you base calcs around Dundies stall), rather it seems like you are trying to argue that a ban isn't required. Secondly, Rampardos would rather run other moves (from Rock Polish, to Ice Beam to stop vib from Defogging etc), and also there has never been a meta as stall central that SD Rampardos has become necessary (even in the Machoke meta).


As some pro-suspect users have said, it's true that Quagsire changes the way you'll play around and build for stall; rather than using traditional stallbreaking boosters like Pawniard, you'll see either more choiced breakers that are able to 2HKO Quagsire, or boosting Pokemon with Grass-type coverage like Ninetales or Simisear (special breakers still work, regardless). Predictably, Pokemon that fill these criteria like Ninetales are seeing a resurgence in the meta, as The Jungle Fox and Akir have talked about in this thread and in VR.

Both Ninetales and Simisear have the tools to dismantle defensive teams based around Quagsire, without losing relevance in other matchups. They both have dark Coverage for Grumpig in Knock Off and Dark Pulse; Hidden Power Ice handles Altaria and other Dragons that are able to switch into Fire-types like Vibrava; conversely, Altaria with only Toxic + Flamethrower is completely walled by Substitute Ninetales; Audino, Bronzor, and Muk are all KOed by +2 LO Fire Blasts; Muk is OHKOed by +2 LO Psyshock from Ninetales; and finally, LO Energy Ball or LO Grass Knot OHKO Quagsire. Just don't Nasty Plot against Encore users on stall like Audino, and you'll be fine.

Simisear @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Focus Blast / Knock Off
- Nasty Plot

Ninetales @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Energy Ball
- Fire Blast
- Psyshock / Hidden Power [Ice] / Substitute

+2 248 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 416-491 (100.4 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 248 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 269-317 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Again those two are built for breaking Dundies stall, and cannot handle certain variants like Sliggoo (Psyshock on Ninetales loses to Haze Altaria, Knock Off on Simisear too). There are also other potential stall mons like Grumpig and Sdef Monferno which can wall those two.

There's no real downside to building with hazard stack right now, regardless of whether you're building offense or balance. For example, Taunt Quilladin provides a great deal of counterplay to current variations of Quagsire stall by Taunting and preventing both recovery and setup globally, whittling away each grounded Pokemon's HP via Spikes, preventing SR from going up, hitting Muk on the switch with Zen Headbutt, and most notably, checking Quagsire with STAB Wood Hammer.

You lose nothing by using Quilladin against other archetypes like Balance or Offense too, as Zen Headbutt nails Monferno on the switch, Taunt prevents Vullaby from removing Spikes, Drain Punch lets it beat Probopass, Pawniard, and Cacturne, and its pure Grass typing and physical bulk allow it to switch into Golem's Earthquake. Quilladin was recently moved down in VR by other council members, but I'm still an advocate for its use in this current metagame for the above reasons.

Roselia performs similarly and can also stack Spikes in order to circumvent Audino's ability to pivot around special threats thanks to the HP it regains both because of Regenerator and Wish. However, Toxic Spikes remain less effective in this meta due to Muk's presence on stall and in general.
Roselia has been pretty iffy this meta, as it is a Grass-type which can't check Golem, and in general SpikeStack isn't easy to build around as you need a Spinblocker or Avalugg can easily pressure you (esp with Quilladin), and Defog Pokemon do not care about any Defiant Pokemon as Quagsire walls them. Though I agree Spikes is fairly effective, but they do not shut down stall, and Spikes-mons low usage is for a good reason.

There are still additional Pokemon to look at, like Freeze-Dry users (especially Lapras) that are adept at dismantling stall, but this post is too long already
I cannot see any of the Freeze Dry Pokemon aside from that sub DD gimmick, and iirc it relies on flinches to beat Muk (and hi Sliggoo).

To sum things up, I believe Quagsire to be a balancing force in the meta as it provides a more reliable answer to slow wincons via Unaware, and it allows previously matchup reliant styles of play to be more consistent. And while stall may be difficult to deal with right now, I think the problem has been misdiagnosed: Muk is a large part of what is preventing stall from being beaten by conventional means that would have normally done the job, like Knock Off, Toxic Spikes, and ChoiceTrick. And finally, the degree to which Quagsire is overcentralizing has been exaggerated, as standard options for dealing with stall even with Quagsire's presence, like Spikes, sweepers such as Rampardos, Simisear, and Ninetales all still work, while still maintaining relevance outside of these specific matchups.
Muk is the reason defensive playstyles got any good in the first place due to its ability to blanket check many special attackers, saying Quagsire does without Muk is an assumption as we have never had a meta with Quagsire and without Muk. Knock Off, Choice Trick (and arguably Tspikes) have never been a way to beat stall and Muk is far from a good counter to them (many Knock Off users beat it, most Trick users are Psychic etc.). Lastly some of the stallbreakers you mentioned do not maintain relevance outside Dundies stall matchup, given that not every stall team follow Dundies stall build and just because they are rarer doesn't mean they don't exist.
 

Grim

The Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
So after playing a bunch of games on ladder and against friends I think that Quagsire should be banned. While I have been able to counter build Quagsire stall successfully and with viable Pokemon and sets too, it restricts team building quite a lot and frankly I don't think there is enough time for the meta to adapt, if it will at all. Wallbreakers such as Rampardos are obviously just not good enough which is why we don't see them being used even in this stall-heavy metagame. Others such as Ninetales and Simisear are decent but face prediction and coverage issues and have a bunch of viable answers on stall anyway. So while I don't think stall is unbeatable (it is inherently a match up based strategy), I think the lengths you have to go just to have a chance against popular stall builds is stupid and restrictive.
As long as Quagsire stall represents the meta I don't think it will evolve much beyond other wallbreakers being used, and in response, other walls.

Muk is also a problem but Quagsire seems to be the main culprit to me, and I don't think we should be discussing Muk as a potential ban candidate until after this suspect. Trapinch + Muk strategies are obviously still a concern but not as immediate as the effect Quagsire has on the metagame right now.
 

pancake

movement and location
is a Contributor Alumnus
Mafia Champion
Hey nerds, I'm hosting a suspect tour on Thursday at 4 PM GMT -5 (That's 9 PM GMT).

Quagsire will be UNBANNED for the tour.

Approved by galbia

since I can't get reqs myself figured I'd let someone else get last minute ones :> be there or be square
 

Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
PU Leader
So with the suspect in its final hours, I wanted to post my thoughts on Quagsire before the suspect fully ends. I have been on the fence for this entire suspect until recently so I feel like I have something to add.

A lot of good points have already been stated by previous posters both for and against the suspect so I will just gloss over them quickly. Quagsire presents a balancing factor to the tier by checking a lot of mons that can be difficult to check otherwise and is itself not broken, but in a stall team Quagsire is unhealthy due to the utility that a bulky Unaware brings as compliment to what other aspects PU Stall already provided. I think it's pretty established at this point that Quagsire as a singular entity is not broken. Rather, Quagsire along with Bronzor and Muk as a core is the reason for stall becoming a prominent force in the metagame.

But that is a rather strange point to make alone. "What about stall makes Quagsire so perfect of an addition as to make stall such a huge threat", i would ask myself. Quagsire does prevent PU's #1 way of breaking stall (setting up and then breaking walls), but it as a mon is not broken itself so surely we would be able to adapt to it. I was a huge proponent to this line of thinking for a long time and I still am to a degree, but I realized a problem with this line of thinking. If the mon itself is unhealthy then adapting to it would be easy and natural. Yes PU has had low activity for a while, but even with innovation after innovation Quagsire is still a problem. So that's when I realized that Quagsire is helped by its teammates just as much as Quagsire helps its teammates. What does this mean?

It means that it's reasonable to think that Quagsire teams are just as able to adapt as the tier is able to adapt to it. Put in an easier to read format, if the tier adapts and creates a new way to beat Quagsire Stall then it's entirely possible if not probable that Quagsire Stall will just adapt and create a new way to deal with the new threat. After all, Quagsire itself is not broken...Quagsire + teammates is what's the issue. So beating the new threat that PU cooked up can be as simple as a small teammate change for Quagsire Stall. After thinking a lot about this point, I realized that PU and Quagsire Stall could just enter an arms race against one another where one would create something new and the other would just counter it. This is due mainly to the small and easily-prepared-for list of ways to actually beat Quagsire that amounts to either really strong neutral hits or a Grass move so it is comparatively easy to prepare for how your opponent will prepare for beating Quagsire.

I think that it's possible that even after a long period of innovation Quagsire would still be a huge problem. Quagsire puts a huge strain on the tier's ability to break stall and whatever weaknesses Quagsire does have are easily patched by its teammates. Quagsire teams also have just as much ability to adapt as our stallbreakers do, so I really am unsure of if the tier will ever truly be able to cope with Quagsire Stall and Quagsire Stall's ability to change. Because of this uncertainty, I have decided that I will vote to ban Quagsire.
 
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So let's distract things away from the quagsire drama and talk about something that's pretty reliable atm and is a big thing in other tiers:
Baton pass. In my case, it's strictly speed pass. For about the last 2 days, i've just been laddering with busken + breakers, and it's incredibly reliable in a sense whereby you can break teams within a small matter of turns to completely sweep teams. It's extremely reliable in breaking teams currently with a mixture of breakers / boosters and makes facing it a huge pain in the ass.
I'd like to share the team here so you can enjoy it too:
Golem @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch

Prinplup @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Defog
- Stealth Rock

Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 44 SpD / 216 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Substitute
- Protect
- Baton Pass

Servine @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 168 SpA / 56 SpD / 36 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Synthesis
- Substitute

Rotom-Frost @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Blizzard
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute

Beheeyem @ Leftovers
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 248 HP / 52 Def / 96 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Nasty Plot

With this team - if you're having trouble with stall, you have beheeyem, rotom, banded golem which all give it an extremely hard time. Whilst you have prinplup doing literally 0 most games, it's there just incase you need a free defog / stealth rock and servine literally destroys any team without an altaria / muk. Even then, i have ways of beating those cores, but generally the team has been extremely successful for me on ladder. Since the meta is ending v-soon, i thought i'd share it so you guys can enjoy it too.
 
Don't have much to say about quagsire that hasn't been said. It makes the meta just... gross. With how little time we have left of a remotely active meta, the only way it will develop to accomodate quag stall is in a way that gives it a rock paper scissors flair of stall, teams that beat stall, and teams that beat the teams that beat stall but lose to stall. It reminds me a lot of the late PUPL Machoke meta where no one actually liked the meta, and I really don't want ORAS PU to end up that way at the very end of its lifespan. Other than that I really just agree with all of the pro-ban posts, particularly false's and anty's. SD Rampardos is not a sign of a healthy meta.
 

playerW17

the shackles known as possibilities
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I agree that Quagsire makes the meta incredibly restrictive and matchup based, which is not a sign of a healthy tier. Quagsire is not necessarily broken by itself, but the style of the play and the matchup based gameplay that it encourages makes for an unhealthy environment for the tier.
 

Aaronboyer

Protects, Proceeds, & Perseveres, & Makes Us Whole
is a Contributor to Smogon
So let's distract things away from the quagsire drama and talk about something that's pretty reliable atm and is a big thing in other tiers:
Baton pass. In my case, it's strictly speed pass. For about the last 2 days, i've just been laddering with busken + breakers, and it's incredibly reliable in a sense whereby you can break teams within a small matter of turns to completely sweep teams. It's extremely reliable in breaking teams currently with a mixture of breakers / boosters and makes facing it a huge pain in the ass.
I'd like to share the team here so you can enjoy it too:
Golem @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch

Prinplup @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Defog
- Stealth Rock

Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 44 SpD / 216 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Substitute
- Protect
- Baton Pass

Servine @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 168 SpA / 56 SpD / 36 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Synthesis
- Substitute

Rotom-Frost @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Blizzard
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute

Beheeyem @ Leftovers
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 248 HP / 52 Def / 96 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Nasty Plot

With this team - if you're having trouble with stall, you have beheeyem, rotom, banded golem which all give it an extremely hard time. Whilst you have prinplup doing literally 0 most games, it's there just incase you need a free defog / stealth rock and servine literally destroys any team without an altaria / muk. Even then, i have ways of beating those cores, but generally the team has been extremely successful for me on ladder. Since the meta is ending v-soon, i thought i'd share it so you guys can enjoy it too.
I'd would like the first to admit that Baton Pass is unhealthy currently in ORAS PU. For the same reasons as ORAS RU and ORAS NU have made in the last couple of weeks, Baton Pass, specifically used on Combusken, takes no effort in team building and is not fun to play against.

I would never call myself a team expert, but as I was building a team for the Secret Santa thread, I played against PokemonMasterTJ, who using this team, tore my team to shreds. This is after a whole day of team-building AND taking team suggestions by PU Moderators and Leaders, especially ShuckleDeath.

The team wasn't perfect, but in this battle replay, you can see blatantly that he, much to his advantage, was waiting on a miss. Now, this happens a lot of the time on both well-made and poorly-made teams alike, but the fact remains that the problem isn't SubStalling or any other form of relying on blatant hax. The direct issue is Baton Pass. I'd like to encourage some discussion on the topic, and whether its just me or not thinking its a fairly huge issue right now.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-505935670
 
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Many

Ehehehehh
is a Tiering Contributor
I'd would like the first to admit that Baton Pass is unhealthy currently in ORAS PU. For the same reasons as ORAS RU and ORAS NU have made in the last couple of weeks, Baton Pass, specifically used on Combusken, takes no effort in team building and is not fun to play against.

I would never call myself a team expert, but as I was building a team for the Secret Santa thread, I played against PokemonMasterTJ, who using this team, tore my team to shreds. This is after a whole day of team-building AND taking team suggestions by PU Moderators and Leaders, especially ShuckleDeath.

The team wasn't perfect, but in this battle replay, you can see blatantly that he, much to his advantage, was waiting on a miss. Now, this happens a lot of the time on both well-made and poorly-made teams alike, but the fact remains that the problem isn't SubStalling or any other form of relying on blatant hax. The direct issue is Baton Pass. I'd like to encourage some discussion on the topic, and whether its just me or not thinking its a fairly huge issue right now.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-505935670
Firstly, let me say that Baton Pass is indeed a powerful force in the current metagame, and it is definitely worth taking a look at.

However, your post is very flawed. There is no way you should conclude that Baton Pass is broken simply after one game- it should take quite a few games to actually get a feel for things to determine if something is broken, and the bandwagon mentality ("i got rekt this is broken") certainly does not help.

And even if it did: the replay itself actually shows very little, because you played the match extremely poorly. Your team is decent, I agree, but even decent teams can lose if you play poorly. In the beginning itself, you made a misclick by clicking Defog with Swanna, allowing Combusken a free substitute. If he had not been able to get a free substitute, I could see things going very differently. After that, you made the mistake of switching Muk in on Beheeyem and actually sacking your Servine counter (which allowed Servine to sweep later on). Then you stayed in with Leafeon on Combusken while locked into Knock Off, letting him get yet another free Substitute. Additionally, PokemonMasterTj is a very good player, so him winning with a good team really isn't anything surprising. Just because he won and you lost, and he used Baton Pass and you did not, doesn't make the strategy broken. I could definitely see you winning this matchup if you played again and tried your hardest, although the matchup with substitute Servine if Muk gets worn down is still not the best.

Moving on from this one post, I do believe there is an argument for Baton Pass being broken. Right now the only situation where Baton Pass is considered harmful in the PU tier has to do with Combusken-pass. Combusken can pass a speed boost to a wide variety of pokemon that are extremely scary with increased speed- these include NP Beheeyem, Marowak, Servine, and SD Bouffalant. However, a commonality between many of the scary wallbreaker pokemon are that even with multiple speedboosts, they can still be outsped by a very fast pokemon or Choice Scarf user, and considering Combusken likely had to lose much of its health to pass to them the strategy ends right there. Pokemon like Servine are deadly but get easily checked by common pokemon like Muk and Monferno. There are other ways to deal with speedpass pokemon too, including priority (Mach Punch will help with Bouff, Aqua Jet with Marowak, and Sucker helps with Beheeyem), using a safety net pokemon like unbroken Sturdy Golem or Sash Kadabra, or simply having any one pokemon that can tank a hit and then revenge kill. Because, you know, it is fairly difficult for a player to pull two successful speedpasses against a good player: Once Combusken is at 50% health or below things get a lot tougher, and the advantage swings to the player with the more standard teams. I understand though nevertheless speedpass teams like Teddeh's can seem too formidable.

So what happens if we decide Combusken Pass is broken? Is banning Baton Pass the best, or only option? I would definitely say no. Anty, galbia, Magnemite, Megazard, and myself actually had a very lengthy conversation about this in the Discord chat several days ago. One opinion was that Baton Pass was by default a broken move and therefore should be banned; in addition, the higher tiers sans OU have banned the move so we should follow by transitivity. However, several of us disagreed with this, because we felt there were many aspects of Baton Pass that were not in fact broken and could not be considered a broken move as a whole: this includes not only drypassing, but also passing substitutes, and passing nonspeed boosts (Mawile and Hypno come to mind). Also, I really don't think we should be obligated to follow tiering decisions from higher tiers as "transitivity" if we don't feel those decisions were the wisest choice. I suggested that we could do a suspect test with a runoff vote, where we have three options:

a) Ban Baton Pass
b) Ban Combusken
c) Ban Baton Passing speed boosts

Option C is actually a modification, or simplification of the clause NU made and we inherited. Instead of banning Speed + other boosts, which I felt is too complex, we could simplify it to not being allowed to pass Speed boosts whatsoever. The reasoning is that there was never a strategy in PU where baton passing boosts other than speed was broken. Some people think this modifying clauses like this is stupid though, so we may be better off with A or C.

anyway that's what I would propose if we are going to take a look at Baton Pass. But I suggest giving the meta at least another week to settle down after the Quagsire suspect before we look at this too seriously.
 
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Well I'll add my 2 cents because i've been quite involved with this discussion.

I think that for a start - I thought baton pass was broken even with ninjask, let alone combusken. The only difference is that combusken has more offensive presence, but they're both extremely reliable at doing what they do, with the only real counters being haze / roar / whirlwind, which I think we can all agree is extremely uncommon in the PU tier. I won't list a huge bunch of replays because simply I haven't bothered to save them when I decided to ladder stomp when I was bored during the PU suspect, but I have several witnesses that know how reliable this team is and I am sure there are some other people who have tried it out or variations of it.
Moving on and adding to the points that MoM has made, with the recent ban of quagsire, this further exaggerates the dangerous nature of busken pass - there is no unaware quagsire to hard wall a bouffalant / cm clef / cm duosion, these bulky as fuck things to break, with speed / a sub - to add to their already amazing stats makes it extremely hard to break and extremely easy for the BP user to win the game or break a huge part of the team reliably.

What would be my course of action?

I think it's clear that from both Policy Review discussions and tier leader and council actions from other tiers have set a precedent; whereby baton pass has received a huge amount of "special treatment" - it's been given a huge list of clauses starting with the amount of BP users per team limited to 2, then 1, to speed + boosts being banned, to speed pass solely being banned? I think there will always be issues surrounding baton pass that we will discover over time - as these clauses suggest - and we should ban baton pass from the core. I propose we ban the move. It is the "exception" of tiering in smogon and I think it needs to change as there have been too many problems surrounding the move - which really remove a competitive aspect of the game as instead of playing it turn by turn, they become chains of moves, orders of moves. It becomes predictable and reliable and a game is decided at team preview - whether or not they have a counter to baton pass or not.

It's proven to be the case in a multitude of tiers (yes I appreciate we're supposed to only be looking at PU) but through the recent appearances of combusken speed pass + screens making an appearance, I am very convinced at the idea that it should go at its entirety.

tl;dr Ban the move.
 
My only problem with banning Baton Pass, or even just speed pass for that matter, is that it's been around since the start of the meta and has never really introduced a problem before. Ninjask has been PU forever and has not been such a great mon starting out in VR at D rank while now currently sitting in B+. Along with this is everything that has Agility+Baton Pass (which is actually a lot more than I expected). But now with our new toy in Combusken, people say that Baton Pass is broken enough to be banned, but why?

1) Bulk: Combusken already has better bulk than Ninjask and that's without an Eviolite, allowing it to take more hits. Not to mention Ninjask's 4x weakness to rocks which makes it that much easier to revenge kill and harder to pass. If your opponent has rocks up, you either can't switch in to pass more than twice or you die to a priority move.
2) Offensive: While Combusken's 85/85 attacking stats aren't great, Ninjask's base 90 Attack isn't much better (don't even try using spa). While the problem most people are bringing up is passing, these do have some merit offensively on their own. And Combusken's neutrality to rocks means it can better use a Life Orb to boost its moves while Ninjask typically has to run Leftovers or Insect Plate even on offensive sets to avoid being worn down too much.
3) Type Synergy: One of the biggest speed pass receivers I've noticed lately is Servine. Combusken functions really well with this as other than Flying, the two share no weaknesses and Servine actually resists some of the moves that may try to take busken down like Water and Ground. However, Ninjask shares weaknesses of Ice, Flying, and Fire with Servine and as all of those are fairly common types, it's much riskier trying to pass speed from it. Granted, while this is just one example, it's what I've noticed is popular in the meta.
4) Freeing up a moveslot: Drawing away from the differences to Ninjask, this is actually something common with Speed Boost. Having that ability frees up a moveslot for another offensive option/more utility. Pokemon that have Agility+Baton Pass have to sacrifice that other moveslot and normally would run those two+Sub+attacking move. Speed boosters just run BP+Sub/Protect+dual STAB which increases the likelihood that they can effectively pass boosts, along with a higher chance of passing a Substitute.

This isn't a perfect list and I'm sure there are flaws (especially with the Type Synergy point as it's not something I 100% understand yet), but still, I think the mechanic of passing Speed Boosts isn't broken, but rather how useful overall the passer is. Combusken fills the role of a speed passer while also being good offensively and having good synergy with a lot of Pokemon in the tier. As such, I don't think Baton Pass as a move should be banned and I don't think it's too overpowered to pass speed. I know we're still coming off the quag ban but if we were to see another suspect, I'd rather see it for Combusken than Baton Pass as a whole.
(This is just my opinion and I wanted to get some more talk about it since the thread hasn't been active for a while, please discuss if you have any opinions that differ, I wanna hear more points about this and maybe my mind could be changed.)

tl;dr I don't think Combusken on its own is broken, I don't think passing speed on its own is broken, I think Combusken passing speed could be broken.
 
I think Combusken passing speed could be broken
Smogon does not do complex bans. Even without Baton Pass, I could see Combusken running dual stabs, protect, coverage move and doing well. And there are other baton pass strategies (cosmic power pass, agility pass, attack pass) that could work, combusken or no. Baton Pass may be uncompetitive. 4 things PU could do.
1. Speed pass ban (what we already have?)
2. Full Baton Pass ban
3. Do nothing
4. Ban Combusken
I think smogon will do nothing for now but they will look at baton pass in the SM PU. If anything the PU council will decide (not a suspect test) and will probably ban Baton Pass because who knows what the PU council can bring up in terms of baton pass strategy.
 

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