Metagame np: PU Stage 4 - October All Over (Throh Remains Banned!)

[termi]

Tangela,

Just loses to Gunk Shot, but more importantly isn't really that easy to put on a team these days because of how offensive the meta is.

Probopass,

Dies to Seed Bomb after some prior damage, so basically you can't use Probopass for anything in the battle unless you want to risk getting swept anyway.

full-health Armaldo,

You only use Armaldo if your team really fucking hates rocks, and having to keep Armaldo at full means you're not gonna spin those away (nor set up rocks of your own, if Armaldo is your rocker)

full health Vullaby,

Probably the most reliable answer to Linoone atm if pdef (can even live Espeed after rocks and KO with Foul Play), but Vullaby has a number of issues of its own and is also not very easy to fit on every team.

max speed Timid Missy and other fast ghosts (this is a coin flip as Linoone could or could not run speed),

Basically just missy because all other ghosts are too slow or too irrelevant.

Rocky Helmet users, Rough Skin Gabite,

Unless you have hurt Linoone enough to pick it off with a tiny bit of residual damage, these don't get even close to checking Linoone.

Avalugg

Badmon.

Kadabra

If sash is intact, and a decent Linoone team also has smth like Gorebyss which probably just plows you once the sash is broken and it has set up.

Purugly,

Mediocre mon, especially now that Pawniard does the Defiant shtick on hazard stacking better anyway.

full health Pawniard.

Another full health mon that just loses once it has been hurt enough. Trap with Magnet Pull Probopass -----> win

Basically, of these mons/ways of counterplay, most of them are too irrelevant, too hard to slap on a team, get boned by specific coverage moves, or just aren't answers to Linoone at all. In addition, wel-built Linoone teams can play around the more relevant answers really easily. There just isn't any truly solid counterplay to Linoone, you either run a very specific check that makes your team worse against the rest of the meta or you just play perfectly and then maybe you win.

 

[g]

The problem with Kadabra is that it is quite easy to Pursuit trap with Metang and it also struggles to Kill Linoone behind Screens without Foul Play

 

[trc]

Now let's look at the aspects of counterplay to Linoone after it has set up. Tangela, Probopass, full-health Armaldo, full health Vullaby, max speed Timid Missy and other fast ghosts (this is a coin flip as Linoone could or could not run speed), Rocky Helmet users, Rough Skin Gabite, Avalugg, Kadabra, Purugly, full health Pawniard. Can most teams fit one of these pokemon on their teams? I think so, yes. That's a lot of pokemon. Balance/Semi-stall can easily run Tangela, Probo, Armaldo, Rocky Helmet users, or even several of the above. Hyper Offense, however, has far fewer choices in Purugly, Kadabra, or a fast ghost, but of course is only one playstyle. It is hard to say whether this is overcentralization or not. One on hand many of these can only revenge kill Linoone, not prevent it from getting any kills, but then again, the point of Linoone is to sweep the entire team. It is not so difficult for people to adapt to Linoone being the top threat in the meta, just as they would do for Roselia. In addition, there are a decent amount of pokemon that can learn underused moves like Encore, Roar, and Yawn, that can prevent Linoone from setting up in front of them even with screens or memento.

I agree with the first two paragraphs of what you wrote, but I just want to address this paragraph here about the aspects of counterplay to Linoone, and how in a tournament setting such as the seasonal, these might not be as reliable as you are making them out to be.

When you asked if most teams could fit one of these Pokemon on there teams, the answer is yes, you could probably fit many of these Pokemon on your teams. The problem is that these Pokemon are not counters to Linoone, which is what your post implies by asking if most teams could fit these Pokemon on them. Lets go through your list for a bit:

• Tangela: loses to Gunk Shot, is easily lured by Knock Off users
• Probopass: loses to Rock Smash / Dig, trapped by Trapinch, easily lured by things like HP Fighting Chatot
• Armaldo: very easy to wear down, SR weak, a pretty bad Pokemon honestly that needs to be at full health
• Vullaby: needs to be at full health, SR weak, and needs to be fully physically defensive as well, in an Exeggutor meta
• Timid Misdreavus: Misdreavus will never be a Linoone counter, Linoone can literally just EV to outspeed and OHKO it
• RH users or Gabite: you literally need like four of these or every Pokemon on your team to do like 59% to a Linoone through Memento
• Avalugg: the only real reliable answer and still easy to wear down and also uncommon due to being bad
• Kadabra: is straight up destroyed by Pursuit Metang and Bouffalant and needs Foul Play or TWave + a Ghost to do anything at all
• Purugly: still requires multiple Pokemon to be sacced and is incredibly uncommon due to being outclassed
• Pawniard: loses to Rock Smash / Dig, loses if it has taken nearly any damage, and best of all, Iron Head doesn't even do enough damage to it, ESPECIALLY if screens are up

For me the biggest problem with Linoone is that it doesn't have counters. All if its supposed options for counterplay can easily lose depending on particular conditions, conditions that your Linoone team's entire goal should be to set up. In a tournament environment, you have no idea what coverage move Linoone is going to be using because your opponent can scout you to see what you typically rely on for it. You have to account for common battle conditions as well: a Linoone team will always run screens or Memento, a Pursuit trapper, and often uses Trapinch as well, as seen on Mael's very effective team. It is so easy to build a team which set up Linoone into a position where it just has no problem winning, and I think this is incredibly unhealthy for the tier.

 

[Raiza]

Now let's look at the aspects of counterplay to Linoone after it has set up. Tangela, Probopass, full-health Armaldo, full health Vullaby, max speed Timid Missy and other fast ghosts (this is a coin flip as Linoone could or could not run speed), Rocky Helmet users, Rough Skin Gabite, Avalugg, Kadabra, Purugly, full health Pawniard. Can most teams fit one of these pokemon on their teams? I think so, yes. That's a lot of pokemon. Balance/Semi-stall can easily run Tangela, Probo, Armaldo, Rocky Helmet users, or even several of the above. Hyper Offense, however, has far fewer choices in Purugly, Kadabra, or a fast ghost, but of course is only one playstyle. It is hard to say whether this is overcentralization or not. One on hand many of these can only revenge kill Linoone, not prevent it from getting any kills, but then again, the point of Linoone is to sweep the entire team. It is not so difficult for people to adapt to Linoone being the top threat in the meta, just as they would do for Roselia. In addition, there are a decent amount of pokemon that can learn underused moves like Encore, Roar, and Yawn, that can prevent Linoone from setting up in front of them even with screens or memento.

Nothing wrong with the other paragraphs of your post, but I feel like you miss the point in this one. Offensive teams are so predominant that something like semi-stall or defensive focused teams aren't viable, or worth using over something more offensive, and just running them for the sole purpose of checking Linoone, will not achieve anything for the player, apart from getting torn apart by something such as Exeggutor, Pawniard, or Swords Dance Monferno. Things like Pawniard on offense may temporarily work as checks, but that's not going to do it especially in the lategame, where you too said Linoone is most deadly. So, most of the examples you listed aren't valid in the majority of cases, especially things such as Avalugg or defensive Armaldo, which I would say are unviable even on most defensive teams. I could see offensive Tangela being used, but I don't actually know if it can tank +6 Extreme Speed, probably yes, but still, him and the other bulky guys you listed still struggle against coverage moves such as Gunk Shot, Dig, Seed Bomb. Misdreavus fell off the grace it was in since a long time, and as you already said it can still be demolished if Linoone runs speed EVs, which are totally worth running atm. I can't see other faster Ghost-types being useful against Linoone, unless you are talking about like Will-O-Wisp Drifblim, Gastly, and few others which honestly are plain terrible, so there's that.

 

[Skankovich]

I think Linoone's brokenness is more a symptom of an unhealthy meta where offense totally dominates, than of like, inherent uncompetitiveness/being overwhelming for the tier. In the meantime I'm fine with it being banned because it is kind of cheesy, but I don't think this hits the root of the issue.

That said I'm not entirely sure what we could do to end the very poor viability of defensive playstyles anyway, I certainly doubt it could be fixed in a single ban.

 

[MZ]

I know this is the linoone suspect thread, but this is also the general discussion thread and I found the point interesting so time to give my thoughts.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/threatlists.3491132/#post-6514803
This is a great example of how our offensive threats far outnumber our defensive ones, and our defensive ones are overall way more lackluster. Stall has been bad to unviable for a long time, there's just not a lot we can do about it. Linoone performs well in this meta, whether it's a good meta or not, because it fares better versus offensive teams. Things like timid scarf chatot don't do too much versus stall, they're just really good because they don't have to worry about that matchup so much. I've tried stall a couple of times recently to see if there's anything worth salvaging, and it hasn't changed. You win or lose based on matchup, and if they bring a 4 attacks simisear or whatever there's not a lot you can do about it. That being said, linoone is a massive pain for non-smallgeist stall too. Has anybody had positive experiences with stall? Might be interesting to hear if someone's managed to make it a little less matchup reliant or something.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried Ditto in the current metagame? Theoretically, it thrives much better in an offensive environment with powerful set-up sweepers running rampant. When you guys start stretching by using Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin users to check Linoone, maybe it's time to take a look at Ditto.

I haven't played much lately, but even I see that offense is pretty dominant right now. Many of you state that defense and even balance teams have trouble, as offense turns most of the defensive Pokemon into set-up bait/liabilities. While there is no obligation for any tier to make stall a viable archetype, if ALL defensive Pokemon become less viable, that cannot be brushed off as easily. From what I see, Linoone is just taking advantage of the metagame right now, to the point of actual abuse of the playstyle. But while banning Linoone deals with the immediate threat there will still be the problem of an overly offensive metagame, where even balance can no longer function.

Are there key Pokemon that make offense too good right now (besides Linoone)? Are there simply too many powerful offensive threats for even mildly defensive teams to handle? If so, should we simply accept the fact that offense is super dominant, or try to at least bring balance back on the table? I'm interested to hear people's thoughts about this: I know people dislike stall, but is sheer offense, only, any better?

 

[Raiza]

''

I agree that Ditto is more of a good check to Linoone and may actually work decently in an offensive metagame such as this one, but that's probably the only check with Pawniard offensive teams can run at the moment, and that's a pretty restrictive choice, even if Ditto doesn't need much synergy to work, it has its downsides too if you compare it with another revenge killer, such as being overly predictable and being near to useless against defensive teams, which I wanted to point out still exist, they are not totally unviable. Regarding the second and third paragraph, to be honest I don't dislike completely having a metagame where offensive teams are dominant, unless there are Pokemon that take advantage from that such as Linoone. Of course people would like more a metagame where all playstyles are equally good, but this can be solved by just doing one suspect, or even 3, our metagame is just too full of offensive powerhouses, and there isn't just one Pokemon that makes offense so good, it's just a vast group of threats that annihilate bulkier and slower teams, so I think the best bet would be to wait for some solid drops such as Throh in the situation we are now. I want to also point out that I still think Linoone and the mechanic behind it is unhealthy for the tier even if offense wasn't as predominant, as the pressure Linoone can put on the opponent is so big that it can allow its teammates to win even if it doesn't get brought on the field, given it can set up without necessarily the help of screens or even Memento.

 

[g]

Ok the results are in and Linoone has been unanimously banned from the PU tier by the PU council. Here you have the single votes with some paragraphs explaining why they voted what they did.

Individual votes

ANTY: BAN

Hide

Linoone has a small pool of checks, and these checks are mostly becoming worse due to metagame shifting into offense, and many others can be weakened with magnet pull or pursuit support. Also, with memento Linoone does not find it too difficult vs the majority of teams to set up. It takes very little skill to use yet gets reliable wins.

Megazard: BAN

Hide

While linoone is by no means impossible to deal with, the pressure it puts on you to keep everything healthy, play around memento/screens and run kadabra, gourgeist or even something like ghastly on every team makes it definitely worth a ban

Magnemite: BAN

Hide

Linoone's issue is not a lack of checks (which is what made it not banworthy in the past), but the fact that its checks are not only much harder to run in such an offensive metagame but they are also nowhere near guaranteed to stop it. Bypassing all of its checks is almost mindlessly easy in the current metagame. For most of its checks, there's something that easily weakens or removes them. Pokemon like Pursuit Metang, Pawniard, Stoutland, and Murkrow can weaken Misdreavus, and Magnet Pull Probopass can trap Klang, etc. Additionally, for everything that beats Linoone, most of the time it can just run an unorthodox coverage move like Rock Smash, Dig, or Gunk Shot to easily bypass them, which is an especially big deal because the all-or-nothing nature of Linoone means that if it gets past your check, it just clean sweeps the rest of your team with no counterplay at all, unlike most sweepers which can just be revenge killed or beaten by something random that can take one hit and KO back. Linoone is absolutely ridiculous in this metagame and there's no reason for it to stay in the tier any longer.

Dundies: BAN

Hide

In an offensive meta such as the PU meta now, PU has very few defensive checks and counters to a Pokemon with +6 Attack and Extremespeed. With as little support as Memento Jumpluff, Linoone can be the last Pokemon and can turn a 6-0 around into a simple win. While you can run checks such as Kadabra for Linoone on common playstyles like offense, another setup sweeper in addition to Linoone is almost impossible to stop and its unhealthy for the current metagame.

galbia: BAN

Hide

linoone is quite too easy to set up wit memento and dual screens being so easy and effective on teams and that has pretty much no counterplay that doesn't involve predicting the turn of the memento and go to a Contrary/Clear Body/Defiant/roar Pokemon to prevent set up. Once its set up the poll of counters it has is extremely small and is pretty much Tangela Vullaby if Linoone is running Dig and the offensive revenge killers list is only Scarf Ghost-types and Kadabra. so yeah get out its influence has been long enough.

trc: BAN

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linoone has always been a pokemon people have complained about, but it is only in the metagame after the recent tier shift that it has become very frequently used. this is because the introduction of pokemon such as exeggutor, gorebyss, and bouffalant have limited defensive teams from their previous mediocre level of viability to being nearly completely unviable, and linoone thrives in this environment because there are next to no pokemon that can withstand its +6 attacks that can be fit on an offensive team, especially considering that a single change in linoone's coverage moves will invalidate potential checks (shadow claw for misdreavus + gourgeist formes, dig for klang + probopass, seed bomb for relicanth + golem, gunk shot for tangela, etc). there is no way of scouting these moves beforehand because linoone rarely attacks before setting up outside of espeed, and it is impossible to build a team with every defensive answer to a possible linoone set variation. however, usually offensive teams's answers to sweepers like this is to prevent them from setting up, however in a meta where memento jumpluff and screens pokemon are all incredibly viable, linoone is ridiculously easy to set up against competent players. the only offensive answers to this are kadabra with either foul play or twave (latter when paired with a ghost-type) or faster ghost-types which are limited to scarf users and the few that can actually do something to linoone are like gourgeist-small and gastly. and these are not even foolproof because of good partners such as pursuit metang, plus no one is switching kadabra directly into linoone so best case scenario it's a 1 for 1 + bringing kadabra to sash trade. plus, scarf ghost-types are actually very easy to take advantage of in games not against linoone because they honestly really suck, scarf gourgeist-small is a lure and nothing else, it has no way of damaging ridiculously common pokemon. it's practically the perfect example of runni
ng something mediocre just to beat one ridiculously centralising and difficult to defeat pokemon, and i don't think this is healthy.

grim-: BAN

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'In this offensive metagame, Linoone stands out as an amazing sweeper. Because of its few reliable checks it often has little problem sweeping unprepared teams and also prepared teams with just a little help from staple partners such as Probopass and a Pursuit user for Kadabra and / or Ghost-types. It also has enough of a movepool to get around some otherwise good checks with coverage moves such as Gunk Shot and Dig, making it even harder to stop. It's a huge teambuilding restraint and decides tons of games on team preview with little to no skill whatsoever, definitely ban.'

2xthetap: BAN

Hide

Linoone should be banned for its overall lack of reliable counter play in PU. With the most viable teams currently leaning toward offensive builds in PU, this essentially boils down to an extremely small list of Pokemon that are able to check Linoone, but simultaneously fit into offensively oriented teams: these Pokemon are Pawniard, Metang, Klang, Probopass, Vullaby, Scarf Gourgeist-Small, Kadabra, and certain variants of Misdreavus. However, these answers aren't reliable enough, given each of these Steel-types can be beaten by Linoone changing its moveset slightly to incorporate Dig, Linoone outspeeds Misdreavus and OHKOes with a boosted Shadow Claw, and Pokemon like Vullaby and Probopass need to remain extremely healthy in order to check Linoone (for example, if Vullaby loses more than 10% health while Rocks are on the field, it is no longer able to check Linoone via Foul Play). This basically leaves Kadabra and Gourgeist-Small as offensive checks because of Kadabra's guaranteed ability to take 2 hits and Scarf Gourgeist-Small's ability to take down Linoone via Explosion or Destiny Bond. While Focus Sash Kadabra is able to take a hit and OHKO Linoone through Screens via Foul Play, Kadabra is easily dealt with by Linoone's most commonly used teammates, with little to no opportunity cost. For example, Jumpluff is a common partner because of its ability to lend Linoone set up opportunities via Sleep Powder and Memento, and is able to use its Speed to pivot on and break Kadabra's Focus Sash via U-Turn. Metang operates similarly and offers Linoone SR support, while being able to switch into Kadabra's Psychic and Pursuit-trap it at the same time, which renders Kadabra unable to beat Linoone late-game.
Defensively, Linoone can be stopped by running options like defensive Tangela or Avalugg. However, much like Linoone is able to adapt to Steel-types by running Dig, it can also beat Tangela by running Gunk Shot; +6 252+ Gunk Shot from Linoone OHKOes defensive Tangela from full. Avalugg is also not a reliable option for beating Linoone because of how easy it is to wear down over the course of a match, and is therefore hard-pressed to remain healthy for Linoone late-game when it is time to set up via Belly Drum. With both offensive and defensive answers failing to provide reliable counter play to Linoone, it's clear why Linoone is unhealthy for the metagame overall and should therefore be banned.

The conclusion reached is that Linoone is broken in the PU metagame due to its lack of viable countermeasures (and especially ones that aren't difficult to cripple such as Knocking Off Tangela or Pursuit-trapping Kadabra), especially the ones that don't involve revenge killing, and massive amount of setup opportunities it can get in the PU metagame with only Memento support from already great and non-niche PU Pokemon such as Jumpluff and Misdreavus. The fact that it can be even more effective if you build specifically around it through Dual Screens can also make it even more devastating. This presence is hurtful for playstyles alike in the current metagame so the council has concluded (with nearly unanimous public support considered as well) that it needs to be banned.

Tagging The Immortal to have this implemented on the server

AND GUYS STAY TUNED FOR A PUBLIC SUSPECT VERY SOON :)

 

[Tect]

aye lmoa...thnk christ, now I can stop running anti leads with my vullaby..lol

 

[Rennyjesus]

AND GUYS STAY TUNED FOR A PUBLIC SUSPECT VERY SOON :)

Hmmmmm Vigo Suspect? is like the only thing that's Suspect worthy right now... Hmmmmmm or maybe Pawn for those crybabys that hate being sucker punched to death xD

P.D.: Thanks for banning Linoone... that thing was simply put, HIDEOUS for the meta...

 

[GeneralAnnoyance]

Hmmmmm Vigo Suspect? is like the only thing that's Suspect worthy right now... Hmmmmmm or maybe Pawn for those crybabys that hate being sucker punched to death xD

P.D.: Thanks for banning Linoone... that thing was simply put, HIDEOUS for the meta...

If we were to do a vigoroth suspect, I'd imagine we'd have to do it on the sub set as the taunt set took a big hit with pawniard dropping and monferno usage rising. Before drops, I was all for a suspect, because let's be honest, that thing was so hard to play around. However, post-drops I'm not quite sure how I feel about vigoroth. My reason for feeling this way is because knock off and the presence of a fighting type being common on every team pretty much kills vig's taunt set. However, on the flip side you can look at it like this. Ghost types took a big hit when pawn dropped and this is huge for vig. The sub set still puts tremendous pressure on your usage of pawn and monferno as your opponent can simply decide to attack your switch instead of bulking up to weaken you or he could get behind a sub on the monferno switch to force some Flare Blitz recoil + ~40% from frustration or ~63% from frustration after the -1 from a CC. So in a sense, Vig lost a set to these drops, but gained so much from losing ghost types to stop it. There also is an argument to be made for the meta becoming more offensive and giving vig very little setup oppotunities, but I won't make that argument because we all know that all it takes for a sweep is coming in on a roselia/zebstrik ect. to lose late game.

 

[MZ]

If we were to do a vigoroth suspect, I'd imagine we'd have to do it on the sub set

What's the difference lol

I don't really see anything needing a ban right now. The issue is that the meta's so offensive shit like Floatzel and Electrode just became way better, but to sort of balance out the offensiveness of the meta we'd have to ban a hell of a lot. Speed is so crucial and the more we ban the weirder the benchmarks would be too. Things like Floatzel and Chatot are incredibly annoying for offense but definitely not broken by any sense of the word, and all we can really do is grin and bear it. I still see those as about as suspect worthy as Vigoroth though, it simply became much easier to handle with more checks and being far more pressed to get in a few bulk ups

 

[g]

Ok so guys I have promised it and there you have it!

The next Pokemon PU is going to test is Throh! It is the first retest we've held down here and for those who weren't around Throh was banned because of its quite high bulk that made it very hard to OHKO and usually let it trade kills with offensive Pokemon and even wall some Pokemon quite well with Rest sets. PU changed in the sense that there are many more Psychic- and Flying-type STAB moves around right now and its general matchup against teams has become a bit worse considering the popularity of hard hitters that would leave it crippled such as Stoutland and in general the preparation against Pokemon such as Machoke and Monferno and evolution of the tier has brought Pokemon such as Grumpig to high levels of usage. Exeggutor dropping can be considered a big problem for Throh as well and the increasing use of Pokemon such as Arbok and Ninjask in the past few months can also be considered a factor positive to its retest.
The influx wallbreakers and heavy hitters has also made the tier much more offensive, as defensive and balanced teams usually struggle in checking many threats, and a big reason why Throh was too much for the tier was its ability to destroy these teams. Not to mention that its bulk will be an asset for those kinds of teams as well in checking quite a number of threats including but not limited to Relicanth, Pawniard, Floatzel and certain Normal-types once.

Throh also provides a very reliable answer to Vigoroth, which has been bought up as a possible suspect-worthy threat, as its STAB Storm Throw deals super effective damage, while avoiding any defense boosts due to its 100% crit ratio.

So yeah this is the idea the PU council had to try and improve this metagame so remember to take on this suspect test with an open mind!
Partially for this reason like some other tiers also did I will leave this thread locked for a few days so that hopefully everybody will be able to post an informed opinion after actual playing time.

sets

Throh (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Guts
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Def / 32 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Storm Throw / Circle Throw
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Throh (M) @ Choice Band / Leftovers
Ability: Guts
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Def / 32 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Storm Throw
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Superpower / Bulk Up

Unlike in past PU suspect tests, we will be using a more traditional suspect system this round. However, it is slightly different from your run of the mill suspect test in that votes by PU council members will count twice as much as votes by non-council members.

The reqs will be 2800 coil with a B value of 9.0 and the suspect test will end/voting will begin exactly two weeks after the date this post was made. Some sample values are below.

GXE N
100 18
90 25
85 32
80 46
78 58
75 91
72 222

To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula

N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800)
tagging The Immortal for the ladder please

***PSA: Do not shit post. Any posts lacking content will be deleted and infracted.

 

[Magnemite]

You may now post! Please refrain from posting purely on theorymon and only do so if you've played with Throh (unless you're not posting about Throh lol)

 

[trc]

for me this is an easy decision. it's pretty much a bulkier machoke without the thing that makes machoke broken. sometimes ive used throh and honestly missed dynamic punch tbh. throh is obviously still really good though, but it has heaps of answers, the tier has so many psychic and flying types and things like colbur exeggutor are completely solid switch ins. never thought it was potentially broken any time ive fought it in the new meta. it's so healthy though to check heaps of the offensive threats ravaging the tier. easy decision imo. FREE THROH

 

[Dundies]

Yeah same here as what trc said. The meta Throh was banned in was a bulky, slow meta with not enough offensive threats and strong Flying- and Psychic-types to keep up offensive pressure on it, whereas this meta is the complete opposite. Not only is Throh extremely pressured all the time, but it's also healthy for the meta in a way, as it can keep borderline broken Pokemon such as Vigoroth in check. Not that hard of a decision, right now I'm leaning towards unban Throh.

 

[ShuckleDeath]

So when I first heard about the Retest of Throh I was not surprised. I have faced Throh and have used Throh on the suspect ladder and I have a few comments about it. I find the Banded set is hard to switch into, Vullaby and Pelipper can switch in if Throh lacks Stone Edge, Tangela can switch in but hates getting it's eviolite Knocked off. basically you have to scout coverage to see what you, can switch in. I don't find this to be a bad thing though as in this offensive Meta there are many Mons that are similar that are far from broken such as Floatzel and Stoutland. The RestTalk set is good but I find it easily broken by the likes of Exeggutor, Mr.Mime, Kadabra, Dodrio, ect. So as you can see popular Mons in the Meta break Throh much much easier than before. Throh is basically another bulky Mon that can hard check Mons such as Vigoroth and Relicanth. it is also very similar to Machoke in that it is a nice one time check to a lot of Mons in the tier. Throh was first banned because of it's overall bulk and ability to over pressure opposing teams.

I have a check list i make in my head to find if a Mon is broken or not I will go over that now.

1. Does it allow a player of a subpar skill level to easily beat a player of a higher skill level-
I think No. I have faced many Throh on the ladder, mot of which were the RestTalk variants I have found them fairly easy to predict around and with Exeggutor in the tier not a hard Mon to OHKO as it was in the past. also in this fast pace Meta Throh has a tough time getting more than one solid kill as it can take a lot of single attacks but there are a ton of Mons that 2HKO it and it is very hard for Throh to out speed much of anything as un Banded Throh fails to get OHKOs on many Mons it's self. So I feel a player of average skill level can easily play around and defeat Throh.

2. Do I feel hindered in teambulding?

Not at all, in fact I find Throh EASES teambuilding. as stated before it is a nice blanket check in the tier just like Machoke, but Throh is much more keen on taking a knockoff than Machoke also a well played Vigoroth can easily get up a bulk Up making it very difficult to beat Vigoroth 1v1, and with Storm Throw it doesn't matter how well you play Throh will switch in and win every time. The Taunt variant just dies and the Sub variant PP stalls 4 Storm Throw and than just dies.

3. How easily is it revenged killed?

Un-invested base 45, with a little creep, in a Hard hitting and fast Meta.......

So in conclusion, Throh is a very solid Mon in the Meta, with obvious draw backs such as low Speed. it is a nice blanket check a much needed knock Off absorber and a hard counter to Vigoroth. Also outclasses that damn Dynamic Punch Machoke

So for these reasons I feel that not only is Throh no longer broken, it is a healthy addition to the tier.

Notable Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Throh Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 250-296 (72.8 - 86.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Throh Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 174-206 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Throh Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 216-256 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Throh Storm Throw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth on a critical hit: 326-386 (89.8 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 0 Atk Vigoroth Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Throh: 156-184 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Relicanth Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Throh: 192-226 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Throh Storm Throw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Relicanth on a critical hit: 320-380 (93.8 - 111.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Throh Storm Throw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Relicanth on a critical hit: 216-254 (63.3 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Throh: 136-162 (30.6 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Throh: 204-241 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Throh Storm Throw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-F on a critical hit: 254-300 (105.3 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Throh: 178-210 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Throh: 416-491 (93.6 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Throh Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exeggutor: 222-262 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Gorechomp]

I agree with trc. Throh is pretty much a less powerful Machoke. Don't get me wrong, it is a very good pokemon and shouldn't be underestimated but I think the meta has enough answers to it without it being to over centralizing imo.

 

[Anty]

Im not sure if this happens with every suspect or just PU ones, but it seems people only focus on one argument, the one which they agree with. By the looks of some of these posts throh wouldn't even be too good, and subjective posts will always be biased in the posters favour (including this one!!), but these are much more one-sided (if you don't believe me see trc's post saying 'easy choice'). When making a suspect post there is more than just listing why it should be unbanned, there should be comparisons to why it would be broken (saying the metagame has changed really isn't enough), and by the looks of these posts we are just going to have a repeat of the smasher suspect test (well more so in the bandwaggon sense, as these posts are at least more insightful).

As to my views on whether we should or shouldn't unban throh, I am currently undecided. Currently, I dislike the metagame due to its offensive nature. It is worse than the metagame pre-TS, and like others have said 'it's fun but it's competitively shit'. I cannot see Throh helping this, rather it would make bulkier balanced teams worse, as people have described it as a 'slightly better machoke', which already is part of the reason bulkier teams are less effective (though the most notable reason might be eggy, machoke and others like rotom-f are factors). Although bulkier teams do like the addition of throh in some ways (as a check to mons like Vigoroth and Rotom-f), these teams have little counter play to it defensively (slapping a dodrio/eggy on the team sadly doesn't do it), as most 'checked' can get screwed over by coverage moves or knock off. Some of you may think that this will not change much, as offense is already the prominent playstyle, however I feel we are limiting bulkier builds even more (I'm talking about more balanced builds rather than stall), so if we unban throh it will just be harder to fix the issue (if we decide that it is necessary, which I think it is).

This may sound like a big accusation, but from the suspect test itself we cannot determine how throh will effect the metagame (well in the way that i am talking about), however if you look at the mon it most closely resembles, machoke, I think it will be a big burden for balanced and defensive builds. I know I haven't talked about its matchup vs offensive teams, which is worse, and there are good points that have been bought up that I agree with, but also talking about the playstyles it hurts is necessary, especcially when these are the playstyles which we want to improve to improve the metagame. Overall rn i'm not sure if its broken in a conventional sense (though some of the arguments make me think it isn't), but i think it would make the metagame worse so I am leaning towards do not unban.

As for the people who will say that it is healthy as it checks vigoroth, I would rather have a more balanced based metagame with no vig and throh than a much more offensive orientated one with both (insert something about slippery slope here). And for those saying a balanced metagame will never happen, I would rather try harder to make it more balanced than have what we have now.

 

[Raiza]

the following post is raw, but i just wanted to give a little thought to this as I still have to express myself on the matter. Anyway, echoing what anty said, i'm also kinda on the fence about unbanning throh or not, but i'm more inclined to no thanks at the moment. before the start of this retest, i thought throh could've helped the current situation we are in, but after trying it and playing on the ladder for a few battles, the metagame doesn't feel different at all, instead it looks worse. I've seen arguments about unbanning Throh because its not broken, as it can be dealt with more easily now that the meta ''changed'', honestly i think that Throh, while being more manageable when running offense, it doesn't help balanced and bulkier teams such as stalls at all, instead it contributes to make these playstyles even harder to pull off, by being bulky + access to things such as knock off, guts, choice band and bulk up sets that are devastating too. I would've been ok with Throh being unbanned if the meta would've been left unscathed by this change, as Throh itself isn't broken at all, even if the metagame wouldn't have been necessarily /better/, but the problem is that Throh getting unbanned would make the metagame even worse for the reasons specified above, and it's not a really good trade-off having another ''non-broken pokemon'', which will be also used as a better/worse(this depends from sets and situations) alternative to Machoke, another Pokemon that gives a lot of trouble to defensive playstyles, in exchange of a worse metagame, in my opinion.
Oh also wanted to add that I don't think we really need Throh to deal with Vigoroth, to be honest I never had big troubles when facing it, but I think especially atm and with new drops, it is manageable to a point where it isnt an instant win for whoever plays it. I think to make the tier better we would need to act regarding some offensive powerhouses that are around right now, but that's another argument so i'll stop here.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Well guys... I personally think that this situation is being typical on almost all metas... Offense is becoming the most popular style because it is simply more effective than defensive builds since gen 6... Almost every single change that this game got on gen 6 favored Offense over Defense (more powerful pokes, mega pokemon, a few pokes got some boosts and many of those are offensive ones, steel type having two less resistances on Ghost and Dark that were already good attacking types, Knock Off boost) and with that decrease on defensive prowess, the pokes that could still work on defensive archetypes are being taken on upper tiers leaving lower tiers without realiable defensive pokes (Granbull and Togetic on RU, Prinplup and Poliwrath on NU are examples on how upper tiers keep needing defensive pokes... And I'm pretty sure they will keep taking them from us).

That being said, I believe there is little to do right now to "change" the meta towards one with a lot of playstyles just because you will need to ban a HUGE bunch of things to avoid Offense as the most popular...

 

[Magnemite]

The question for me is completely about whether Throh is good or bad for the meta, as I don't really think anyone can argue that it's broken in this metagame. The answer to this question isn't really easy to determine, and I really don't think I can lean either way on that yet. However, I've seen some people arguing that if it isn't broken, regardless of whether it's bad for the meta, it should still be unbanned. To me, that honestly doesn't make sense. The direct purpose of suspect tests (especially this one, as this was outright stated in the suspect post) is to make a metagame more balanced, so why specifically unban something if it makes the metagame less balanced? Like I said, whether it's actually bad for the metagame (specifically in regards to defensive teams) is up for debate, but I definitely feel like this should be the topic of discussion.

 

[trc]

because if it isn't broken, it shouldn't be banned. that's simply it. i'm fine with banning to make the meta better, but if you think that throh isn't broken but makes the meta worse, you might as well ban exeggutor, the simis, grumpig, or even ninetales. don't change your philosophy for only one pokemon.

 

[Magnemite]

because if it isn't broken, it shouldn't be banned. that's simply it. i'm fine with banning to make the meta better, but if you think that throh isn't broken but makes the meta worse, you might as well ban exeggutor, the simis, grumpig, or even ninetales. don't change your philosophy for only one pokemon.

This is different because we're unbanning it, not banning it. In order for it to be unbanned, I'd argue that there should be a good reason to do so (especially since its theorymonned positive effect on the meta was why it was even tested at all), since the status quo in this case is for it to be banned. idk if this makes sense because i'm really tired but yeah.