Metagame np: PU Stage 6 - Spread Crustle Across The Block

[g]

Without mentioning Grumpig which is always enough with Audino support, Specially defensive Monferno is a good option on stall to beat Rotom-F.
It beats all ice-types and most grass-types in the tier very well (and Pawniard) and handles Rotom very well especially in combination with Audino. Tank (even with Rest) Regice is also a good option for slower paced balance as is Clefairy (and more spdeffy invested Duosion) to handle it and those don't really only cover that for a defensive team (most help with pretty much any single special attacker on the tier such as the various Floatzel, Zebstrika, Kadabra). There is also the end of it all counter in Chinchou (and Seaking).

Those are the best fat teams have for Rotom and for me is more than enough.
trc will also agree that Monferno is much harder to build around D;

 

[Anty]

Rotom-f isn't even too problematic vs stall from what ive seen, actually trick sets are much more threatening. Audino w/ Encore is very good on stall, and there are plenty of other good heal bell users you can use (grumpig/altaria/clefairy for example). Additionally there are other checks like grumpig (stall run sdef and heck i think zdrup even used) restalk, clefairy, cryogonal, etc. Additionally, no counters does not necessarily mean it is broken, just look back to Simipour around August time where teams would have to risk stuff like lickilicky getting bopped by its 4th move, and that was a balanced based metagame. Right now I would say balanced isn't as good as say stall or offense, but it still has ways around around rotom-f like the pokemon ive mentioned before.

Im not going to try and pick apart each argument as Marogodd already has, but there are some things that bug me. In your paragraph about Grumpig you state how it gets warn down but you fail to mention rotom-f getting warn down, like when you say 'after a few switches' but rotom-f often can't survive that long w/ a stealth rock weakness and Substiuting. I definitely wouldn't compare it to exeggutor as it was much riskier to try to check as pretty much zweilous was the only counter (i rate chinchou more than that), and checks could get blown back by sleep powder/yache berry/etc and even offensive checks could get screwed over by yache berry

Balanced is as worried about monferno/machoke/leafeon and more which is why it isn't as a good a playstyle. Ive seen several solid stall builds all of which have had multiple answers to rotom-f, and i haven't seen a single audino outstalled by subrotom. This metagame is probably as balanced as the post throh/kecleon metagame, which imo was the best to play in, and that had more centralising mons (poli) so I think this metagame is as good as we can make it.

 

[GeneralAnnoyance]

As for Rock-Coverage on Stunfisk i would agree pre-shift it would be way inferior to Toxic but right now its actually a really nice filler slot for not only Rotom-F but also Cryogonal which many also use as an instant switch in mon since it can either fire off freeze-dry/Rapid Spin with little downfall however Stone Edge punishes this with a chance to OHKO and with Cryogonal being the general hazard remover taking this out is great for a rocker like stunfisk

8 Atk Stunfisk Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cryogonal: 252-298 (89.6 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

I hadn't thought about rock coverage for cryogonal and I feel like it's a little bit more justified to run edge on fisk now, seeing that most people see stunfisk as an opportunity to switch in cryo. Good point!

Also why is a mon on stall running any set but standard viewed as a bad thing?

I'm not saying that a mon on stall running anything but standard is a bad thing. I'm saying that Rotom forces Audino to have to run a set that makes it less effective at being a cleric. Audino runs encore pretty much solely for Rotom. You could argue that you could run encore for Shell Smashers who smash in your face or Pawniards trying to get up an SD, but ultimately encore is used to cover only Rotom. This is an example similar to that of Exeggutor causing grumpig and kadabra to run signal beam over focus blast/shadow ball respectively. The set isn't bad, it's just forcing a mon to handle it at the cost of better handling the rest of the meta.

Without mentioning Grumpig which is always enough with Audino support, Specially defensive Monferno is a good option on stall to beat Rotom-F.
It beats all ice-types and most grass-types in the tier very well (and Pawniard) and handles Rotom very well especially in combination with Audino. Tank (even with Rest) Regice is also a good option for slower paced balance as is Clefairy (and more spdeffy invested Duosion) to handle it and those don't really only cover that for a defensive team (most help with pretty much any single special attacker on the tier such as the various Floatzel, Zebstrika, Kadabra). There is also the end of it all counter in Chinchou (and Seaking).

Those are the best fat teams have for Rotom and for me is more than enough.
trc will also agree that Monferno is much harder to build around D;

I'm interested in attempting to run specially defensive duosion, as I haven't used it at all on ladder. So I'll give your suggested mons a look at and see if my opinion sways on the matter. My only qualm about some of your suggestions is that most of those mons find a hard time fitting onto teams and at this point you'd be running abstract mons specifically to handle Rotom. I just feel like no mon on ladder should require so much attention that it alters natural teambuilding.

Rotom-f isn't even too problematic vs stall from what ive seen, actually trick sets are much more threatening. Audino w/ Encore is very good on stall, and there are plenty of other good heal bell users you can use (grumpig/altaria/clefairy for example). Additionally there are other checks like grumpig (stall run sdef and heck i think zdrup even used) restalk, clefairy, cryogonal, etc. Additionally, no counters does not necessarily mean it is broken, just look back to Simipour around August time where teams would have to risk stuff like lickilicky getting bopped by its 4th move, and that was a balanced based metagame. Right now I would say balanced isn't as good as say stall or offense, but it still has ways around around rotom-f like the pokemon ive mentioned before.

Im not going to try and pick apart each argument as Marogodd already has, but there are some things that bug me. In your paragraph about Grumpig you state how it gets warn down but you fail to mention rotom-f getting warn down, like when you say 'after a few switches' but rotom-f often can't survive that long w/ a stealth rock weakness and Substiuting. I definitely wouldn't compare it to exeggutor as it was much riskier to try to check as pretty much zweilous was the only counter (i rate chinchou more than that), and checks could get blown back by sleep powder/yache berry/etc and even offensive checks could get screwed over by yache berry

Balanced is as worried about monferno/machoke/leafeon and more which is why it isn't as a good a playstyle. Ive seen several solid stall builds all of which have had multiple answers to rotom-f, and i haven't seen a single audino outstalled by subrotom. This metagame is probably as balanced as the post throh/kecleon metagame, which imo was the best to play in, and that had more centralising mons (poli) so I think this metagame is as good as we can make it.

I'd have to disagree with you on Rotom-F not being too problematic for stall. Sub WoW beats audino 1v1 and it can cripple most stall member with WoW or one of its STABS. In terms of scarf, one mispredicted trick and audino can just beat it 1v1 with the traditional set. You make a good point about rocks with rotom. I agree that Rotom-F can also easily get worn down, however my point was more focused on the loss of momentum the spdef grumpig player faces when switching into rotom and the easy removal of pig with pursuit mons. I'd like to disagree with your Exeggutor point as well. While we may not have had readily available counters for it (as zweilous wasn't easy to fit on most teams), we had plenty of mons like the mons I mentioned before to check it we had and fast offensive threats like Jumpluff, Monferno, Pawniard to an extent, and Offensive Rose to revenge it. Yeah, you'd have to worry about a berry, but at least Eggy was slow enough to revenge reliably. Because of Rotom's speed, sub, and stabs, it's much harder to revenge kill it. Lastly, Monferno, Machoke, and Leafeon are all checkable by Stunfisk, Vullaby, and Gourgeist on balance, all of which are exploited by Rotom. So I'd argue that those mons are making balance a worse playstyle, Rotom is.

 

[g]

I'm not saying that a mon on stall running anything but standard is a bad thing. I'm saying that Rotom forces Audino to have to run a set that makes it less effective at being a cleric. Audino runs encore pretty much solely for Rotom. You could argue that you could run encore for Shell Smashers who smash in your face or Pawniards trying to get up an SD, but ultimately encore is used to cover only Rotom. This is an example similar to that of Exeggutor causing grumpig and kadabra to run signal beam over focus blast/shadow ball respectively. The set isn't bad, it's just forcing a mon to handle it at the cost of better handling the rest of the meta.

Well to be honest Signal Beam was ran on those before as well (as it still is) since it is a valid alternative to hit Psychic-types outside of Metang which is also accurate against Dark-types (like Mightyena, important for Kadabra) so that example is pretty bad because nothing was going out of his way by ditching the ability to beat something to beat Exeggutor. As for Encore Audino it is necessary on stall to have a chance against Calm Mind Clefairy and Duosion which are a massive pain to deal with otherwise. It can also help in stalling out Recovery moves from Pokemon like Roselia and prevent setup of any sort in many situations

I'm interested in attempting to run specially defensive duosion, as I haven't used it at all on ladder. So I'll give your suggested mons a look at and see if my opinion sways on the matter. My only qualm about some of your suggestions is that most of those mons find a hard time fitting onto teams and at this point you'd be running abstract mons specifically to handle Rotom. I just feel like no mon on ladder should require so much attention that it alters natural teambuilding.

As those Pokemon cover a lot more than just Rotom-F, that was the point of my post. If you think that having to run non standard sets is bad for the metagame then I cannot agree with you at all since it is what keeps the metagame on going. If you haven't tried it I am also suggesting you Ninetales as a nice way to handle Substitute Rotom-F on balance o.o

 

[RawMelon]

Also GeneralAnnoyance, you mention that no mon should alter natural teambuilding, but like others have stated its natural to tailor your sets to cover your team's weaknesses to help specific threats (in this case Rotom-F). If the "standard" sets aren't cutting then change them. Also, running Encore on Audino is for so much more than Rotom, there are a plethora of set up mons that have to think twice before setting up or subbing on Encore Dino (Boufflant, Gogoat, Arbok, etc) because Dino can just encore then pivot out and get its health back so using Encore isn't going out of the way at all or making Dino any less effective of a cleric.

 

[PokemonCanBeBetter]

Somebody nicely suggested I ask here, so I will. I'd make it longer but my thread was completely deleted even though I typed like 500 words.

Why isn't there a ban or limit on entry hazards whatsoever, especially in a tier that is incredibly lacking in viable rapid spinners AND defoggers but is still littered with multiple good users of stealth rock and toxic spikes?

PU is the best tier to remove or limit them.

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

Somebody nicely suggested I ask here, so I will. I'd make it longer but my thread was completely deleted even though I typed like 500 words.

Why isn't there a ban or limit on entry hazards whatsoever, especially in a tier that is incredibly lacking in viable rapid spinners AND defoggers but is still littered with multiple good users of stealth rock and toxic spikes?

PU is the best tier to remove or limit them.

Um... that person was mistaken. Stuff like this belongs in the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread, so post there. As for the entry hazard argument, I don't think it's that much of a problem. With Prinplup and Cryogonal, we have more ways than ever to deal with entry hazards, so this is a bad time to ask that question. Also, our spinners may be shit, but most of our hazard setters are even worse o_

galbiaedit: i told him to post there since it is about the state of the metagame

 

[MZ]

Somebody nicely suggested I ask here, so I will. I'd make it longer but my thread was completely deleted even though I typed like 500 words.

Why isn't there a ban or limit on entry hazards whatsoever, especially in a tier that is incredibly lacking in viable rapid spinners AND defoggers but is still littered with multiple good users of stealth rock and toxic spikes?

PU is the best tier to remove or limit them.

We tend to avoid complex bans as a whole as part of the suspect philosophy or w/e since we're playing true to cartridge pretty much outside of some necessary things like endless battle clause. If a hazard setter is really overpowered then it's been banned before (see garbodor) but right now hazards aren't really overly disgusting.

Also, our spinners may be shit, but most of our hazard setters are even worse

Golem, Roselia, Stunfisk, Relicanth, Metang, Probopass (not for much longer), and even Pawniard and Monferno occasionally are all in the A ranks. Removers have... vullaby and cryogonal with swanna in B+. I don't think it's fair to say at all that our setters are poor, on the contrary, we have so many that it's not hard to fit one with a different role or list of checks than all others on a team.

 

[g]

Snow cloak Articuno was just released
!!

 

[Funbot28]

Snow cloak Articuno was just released
!!

I feel a weather evasion clause looming in....

 

[PokemonCanBeBetter]

We tend to avoid complex bans as a whole as part of the suspect philosophy or w/e since we're playing true to cartridge pretty much outside of some necessary things like endless battle clause. If a hazard setter is really overpowered then it's been banned before (see garbodor) but right now hazards aren't really overly disgusting.

I get that it'd be way out of the norm banning such a thing, but the concept of limiting I think should be explored. Sleep clause exists, so it wouldn't be fundamentally difficult for the inability to stack EHs. I heard that either EHs as a whole or just stealth rock was banned in a side- OU metagame in showdown but no one played it so I can see why people may be further iffy about the idea.

However when you look at the Pokemon in the PU tier, there are a lot of (comparatively) reliable entry hazard setters whereas most rapid spinners are NFE (often having trouble being useful outside of spinning) or weak to stealth rock e.g. Cryo, Avalugg and Armaldo. At least in my mind, the fact that there are very obvious weaknesses with the spinners in PU speaks volumes. In my original post I noted being a reliable stealth rock setter isn't something that makes the Pokemon rise tiers, but being a reliable spinner is.

Defog is still of course an answer but a vast majority fall under the same category: weak to rocks and/or relatively useless outside of that one move and the obligatory status.


I haven't looked into it at all, but I have a feeling because of the BSTs in the lower tiers (obviously moreso PU), the rocks/spikes damage is a lot more noticeable. As in, there are many Pokemon that don't resist it and taking 12.5% seems like it can certainly be the difference between living and dying in a lot more Pokemon than in higher tiers. Even if it's taking 6%. That's just speculation though.

 

[kay]

We actually had a bit of discussion awhile back on the thought of suspect some hazards, you can find that here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...victreebel-banned.3537437/page-6#post-6348774

I think the general thing is that we don't want to ban something that would take us away from how things are in games as far as mechanics go. The only times where it's basically needed would be to keep competitive play intact. Examples of this are like when Baton Pass was changed to not be able to pass both stats + speed. This was done because there were extremely good ways to abuse this in almost every tier.

Rocks are interesting because yes, in PU they're very good. But I'd go as far as to say they help balance the tier out, could you picture how hard it would be to kill things like Articuno and even Vesiqueen if we didn't have rocks? Or how over baring things like Ninjask would be if there way no rocks to worry about? Stealth Rocks help keep the tier in balance as it lets us have some kind of counter play to these kinds of mons. If we ended up getting rid of rocks, we'd have to ban quite a few mons to go with it, and things like Vullaby and Golem would fall in viability, leading normal types to take over the meta as good normal resists are harder to justify using on teams.

Over all, while on paper it sounds like a good idea, Stealth Rocks are not a mechanic that need to go to to help preserve competitive game play, and their presence in PU is also a healthy one.

 

[PokemonCanBeBetter]

Thanks, I read through all of that.

I noticed a couple of things though. For one, Pelipper and Torterra were mentioned (Pelipper being touted quite strongly as a great defog user) and they are both in NU now. The rest of the Pokemon mentioned - Vibrava, Wartortle, Avalugg, Armaldo, etc - were all mentioned in a negative light. Vibrava being useless, Wartortle being "borderline useful" and the rest being very susceptible to SR as well as the Pokemon that can lay them.

Also, Pokemon like Articuno, Rotom-F, etc would of course be much too strong for the PU game if SR was removed, but then those Pokemon would be suspect and probably delegated to NU themselves if SR was banned.

I see the argument that SR allows for an "intelligent" gameplay, but when your choices to counter SR are FORCED to take much more damage than most premier spinners/defoggers in their respective tiers; arguably the best examples of one trick ponies (useless outside of that); and only even considered because they can do that, I think it speaks volumes. Remember, good rapid spinners go in higher tiers just for being good counters to SR, hence why PU has so little.

The Pokemon in PU are literally the worst Pokemon in the game and their positions may indeed be specifically, or mostly, because they get completely destroyed by SR (like Articuno), but what that also points towards is that SR might just be too strong for the tier itself. There are not many Pokemon that resist SR in PU compared to other tiers, most that do are NFE of Pokemon in higher tiers. Really, it does say a lot.

Personally, I would say that using SR in the lowest tier is arguably the least intelligent use of SR in Smogon competitive because of those reasons mentioned above. Many Pokemon are low in usage because of that weakness, those who aren't weak to it are low because they're just flat-out bad Pokemon, and there are such limited options to actually prevent or remove them. Plus, why use spikes or toxic spikes when SR is bound to take 12.5-25% health of probably over half of the regularly used list of Pokemon in PU upon switching? A lot of talk was about SR preventing switch and momentum move spam, but it's obviously not the only damaging entry hazard, and I think spikes are fundamentally fine. Really SR just seems infinitely worse because so many Pokemon are actually in PU because SR makes them horribly bad.

What is also interesting (and sorry if I'm wrong here) is that everyone in those posts you linked seemed willing to try it, yet the discussion ended on that page. Furthermore, it was specifically about SR and only SR. What about my other option of limiting the total amount of hazards set? No need for a fancy formula, but just say that a team can only place one at a time? I know it's not 'hard' to counter the stacking of multiple at all, but if I'm honest it's just my want to play some niche, crappy Pokemon in a tier without an abundance of, or reliance on, entry hazards.

Lastly, I don't think a specific "type" of Pokemon is going to overtake the PU meta if something dramatic like this does happen. Maybe some Flying type Pokemon would be used, but Normal? Remember this tier has 0 fully evolved Fighting types and 1 fully evolved Dark type. If a Normal type Pokemon like Raticate got used more, that'd be a lot more fun than having SR in every single game, and it'd be more interesting too. Plus, we all know that Raticate or any other Normal type that got used a lot would have its counters.

P.S. Normally when a(n intentionally) competitive game has one thing that dictates the metagame for every single player in every single tier of that game, that thing gets revised. SR is probably the single move that dictates every single meta (in turn making spin, defog, taunt etc very important). This meta is dictated the worst by it.


P.P.S. What are the biggest threats to watch out for in a metagame without Stealth Rock? And how can you be sure that removing Stealth Rock wouldn't also push those Pokemon up to BL4 or NU?

 

[Magnemite]

Look, I appreciate the intelligent discussion going on here, but a Stealth Rock ban really isn't going to be very likely to happen any time in the near future. While PU is certainly the ORAS tier most affected by Stealth Rock, but there have been several instances of tiers which had much worse options of hazard removal than current PU does (particularly BW NU), yet Stealth Rock has never been banned. I really don't feel like it's nearly enough of a problem here to warrant such a radical and precedent-setting ban. It would also more than likely not be great from a PR perspective, and I really doubt that a Stealth Rock ban from PU would go over well with the general Smogon community. PU has some of the best overall hazard removal options that it has ever had, and yet even in past PU metas the only times hazards were a particularly big issue were when we had Garbodor (which we banned) and arguably the Roselia era prior to the November tier shift (and even then, both of these cases were Spikes, not Stealth Rock).

Would a Stealth Rock ban make PU a better tier? Maybe, but it's not a huge problem by any means and there would be a lot more standing in the way of a Stealth Rock ban than just whether or not it was broken enough.

 

[PokemonCanBeBetter]

That's fine, I just don't get it. Personally I don't see why there are so many tiers in the ORAS meta but there can't be one that removes SR when that one move dictates a huge portion of the metagame in every tier, and the Pokemon in this specific tier are affected, by far, the absolute worst. I still think a suspect test could be worthwhile, and I know I'm a newbie, but considering the thread I was linked to above, over half a year ago many people here were totally willing to see what would happen. Since then Pokemon like Pelipper have been moved to NU.

But regarding it never being banned at its worst, that shouldn't be reason as to why it shouldn't be considered now. That doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, why do people even like SR? Why would it not go over well with the community? I could understand removing it from a higher tier because that's a hugely dramatic change, but PU is the absolute bottom of the barrel. Like I mentioned above, it seems like it's the most braindead form of entry hazard in the entire metagame in PU because of how much damage is does to the majority of Pokemon and especially the ones that remove it. I don't see why that would be popular unless people actually like the idea of getting more damage out of SR than anywhere else, with littler repercussions.

Tell me though, what are the best counters in PU that aren't one trick ponies a la Vibrava or Wartortle? Is it Prinplup, another NFE Eviolite user that gets decimated by the abundance of Knock Off users in the tier? Or is it one of the Pokemon who get a spin off after they lose 25% of their health and then die in the hit afterwards - if they even live it - like Avalugg or Cryogonal? Or is the best option to run the high positioned in viability rankings, suicide lead set Monferno, taunt and set it up yourself? In very special cases, moves should be considered like Pokemon themselves. SR is one move that has a limited number of counters and a limited number of uses from those counters. A Pokemon like that would be relegated to NU without question.

 

[g]

Stealth Rock adds another layer of difficulty to the game that was certainly fundamental from a game design viewpoint because it punishes continuous switching and limits the extremely good moves Volt Switch and U-turn are. Practically you can consider the introduction of Stealth Rock a way of sort or balancing out the massive power creep and spam of those two moves (which really don't have users unaffected by hazards outside of Flygon). You say that a metagame without Stealth Rock would be different for the better but it would just be different and completely dumb in my opinion since really Pokemon such as Articuno would be stupidly good and even Ninjask has no reason not to be brought out on any double ever. What becomes much more annoying is also any fast Pokemon like Zebstrika and Floatzel which are so hard to wear down, eviolite users not fearing their lack of leftovers any time they come in and Rotom-F being damn ridiculous as well (similarly to Dodrio and Simisear, Rapidash and Ninetales or Jumpluff IMO).
You consider those Pokemon useless outside of removing Stealth Rock (which is a lot to be honest especially if you consider those broken) but really they are not since Cryogonal and Vullaby as well as Pawniard contribute to defensive synergy a lot by checking common threats as well.

I wouldn't even put it down to policy matters since in my opinion it isn't even something worth considering unless you want to open a can of worms and play a metagame centered on volturn, fire types, articuno, and general bullshit especially when only a handful of Pokemon have reliable recovery to outlast anything offensive, that just feels a shitton more limiting to me than having to ponder my switching and teambuilder.

 

[PokemonCanBeBetter]

Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that spikes etc exist, and that Pokemon deemed too good in an environment without SR would probably not exist in it? Articuno would be hard to deal with and I see that meaning Articuno becomes BL4 and relegated to NU like I said a few times. Ninjask might seem hard to deal with, without SR in the same tier, but its defences are paper and virtually any rock hit would kill it immediately.

I consider those Pokemon useless outside of that one aspect. Like I've said in every post so far, they're objectively trash Pokemon and only barely better than the dead worst, because a good rapid spin or defog user will be ranked higher solely because of that. I know that they have a use, but my point is that the best counters switch in to a 25% health loss, and can easily die to many, many hits as they use the turn to remove the hazard.

For example, Vullaby would be a much better Pokemon without Stealth Rock, obviously, but its best use in the tier is that it can remove Stealth Rock. The metagame is dictated so much by one single move.

Articuno, being immune to all hazards but severely weak to SR, would not exist in the lowest tier if the lowest tier banned SR. Rotom-F and Dodrio likely the same.

Eviolite users have a hard enough time existing because there are already so many of them. Knock off is strong in itself (so much so that in the post I was linked to above, it was also considered for removal) because of that as well as the crippling lack of decent Pokemon that resist dark. Which begs the question, what does Pawniard have to do with this?


Take away the majority of things you think would be "dumb" without SR, because without SR, they wouldn't exist in the tier. Maybe it would look better then, when you consider Pokemon like I mentioned above (Articuno, Rotom-F, etc) wouldn't be usable.

I'm still waiting for an answer though. Is there a Pokemon in PU that is a strong counter to SR? One that doesn't require Eviolite to be bulky, doesn't lose 25%+ of its health just switching in? And isn't predictable like suicide lead Monferno? I don't see one. And if there was at any point, it's probably in NU based on that premise alone.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

Hazards are such a basic element to singles that removing it wouldn't fix this tier it would simply put it into an odd state of chaos that no one would want to play, it would be massively different from every other tier and PU wants to move towards being a more established tier that is taken seriously not a tier that is avoided like the plague.

 

[g]

Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that spikes etc exist, and that Pokemon deemed too good in an environment without SR would probably not exist in it? Articuno would be hard to deal with and I see that meaning Articuno becomes BL4 and relegated to NU like I said a few times. Ninjask might seem hard to deal with, without SR in the same tier, but its defences are paper and virtually any rock hit would kill it immediately.

I consider those Pokemon useless outside of that one aspect. Like I've said in every post so far, they're objectively trash Pokemon and only barely better than the dead worst, because a good rapid spin or defog user will be ranked higher solely because of that. I know that they have a use, but my point is that the best counters switch in to a 25% health loss, and can easily die to many, many hits as they use the turn to remove the hazard.

For example, Vullaby would be a much better Pokemon without Stealth Rock, obviously, but its best use in the tier is that it can remove Stealth Rock. The metagame is dictated so much by one single move.

Articuno, being immune to all hazards but severely weak to SR, would not exist in the lowest tier if the lowest tier banned SR. Rotom-F and Dodrio likely the same.

Eviolite users have a hard enough time existing because there are already so many of them. Knock off is strong in itself (so much so that in the post I was linked to above, it was also considered for removal) because of that as well as the crippling lack of decent Pokemon that resist dark. Which begs the question, what does Pawniard have to do with this?


Take away the majority of things you think would be "dumb" without SR, because without SR, they wouldn't exist in the tier. Maybe it would look better then, when you consider Pokemon like I mentioned above (Articuno, Rotom-F, etc) wouldn't be usable.

Well Spikes in general would only partially work but they have so many more immunities and need 3 turns to be set up so they are really less effective all around. Stealth Rock is a move you need to deal with, just like Earthquake or Hydro Pump. It forces you to teambuild around it and that is honestly fine since it promotes and advantages who is able to stay creative and on point on the metagame and, while the answers to stealth rock are limited, there are still quite a few like Cryogonal, Prinplup, Vullaby, Lumineon, Vibrava, Armaldo, (Wartortle and Torkoal), anti leads like Rampardos and Taunt / Magic Coat users as well as using few pokemon affected by it.

I'm still waiting for an answer though. Is there a Pokemon in PU that is a strong counter to SR? One that doesn't require Eviolite to be bulky, doesn't lose 25%+ of its health just switching in? And isn't predictable like suicide lead Monferno? I don't see one. And if there was at any point, it's probably in NU based on that premise alone.

Lumineon is the bulkiest Defog users that doesn't rely on eviolite. It also has access to ok defenses, Storm Drain to be a nice check to Floatzel and Simipour, and U-turn to not lose momentum.

 

[MZ]

If I've read through the very large posts and understood them correctly, you're saying rocks have a massive, negative influence on the tier. But why is this influence actually a bad thing? You need to have the evidence on your side to change the status quo, and right now I'm not seeing why SR is bad. Mons take damage from them and certain things like cuno would be better without them. But do we want that? Rocks are an effective way to neuter these pokemon, provide a balancing factor to Pokemon that would otherwise be NU- similarly to very good hazard setters being NU like you talked about. But sure, while NU has Pelipper or Claydol or whatever, they also have mons that are too good at other jobs- we don't get wallbreakers like Sawk, Piloswine and Poliwrath were balanced but went up, Xatu is too variable with too much utility to fall. NU having these mons isn't indicative of anything, they have all the better mons. That's the point. Additionally, I really disagree with mons weak to rocks, especially 4x weak, being trash. This is just a fact that Ninjask and Articuno really aren't bad mons, despite rocks, because the whole point of them is that, with the investment of team support for entry hazards and other partners, they can turn out to be incredibly good. And yes, reliable team support to keep rocks off exists because hazard control is not impossible. I guarantee you no top player considers Ninjask bad at all, despite rocks existing. So yeah, rocks is a majorly influential move that totally changed the metagame since gen 4. But having a massive impact and being unfair and unbalanced are totally separate things.

Also what ever happened to TRC's no Stealth Rock minitour? I could've sworn that was supposed to happen before ban happy

 

[PokemonCanBeBetter]

At this point I could probably go through the list of Pokemon in PU and no one would be surprised that the average damage dealt simply by switching into stealth rock would be higher than 12.5%.
We could look at the 'viable' Pokemon that remove them and see the average would likely increase. We could look at the Pokemon that can remove them and see if they can do anything else worth mentioning, which most cannot, either because they (can very easily) die in the turn they spin or because they lack the power or other utility to do anything.
We could look at the users of stealth rock and see that they have infinitely more reliable ways to set them up than there are ways to bounce, spin, defog, taunt or outright deny it by killing them.
Hell we could look and judge every specific Pokemon that is weak to Stealth Rock in PU and realise most of them are literally just this low because of one move that hinders a huge portion of fully evolved Pokemon because of how ridiculously strong it is (and you compare it to spikes, calling spikes "weak" when spikes is actually balanced and SR has always been way too strong?).
And we can look at what could happen if SR was eventually banned in PU, but no one wants to consider things like Articuno would be too strong without the only thing that cripples them to such an extent they're in the lowest tier, therefore, no longer being in that tier.

Either I'm the only one that understands PU has an abundance of Pokemon that are weak solely because of Stealth Rock hindering their usefulness - so much so that a legendary Pokemon with a huge BST is in the lowest tier - or I'm the only one who thinks it means something.

But at the end, no one agrees with me and nothing will sway your opinions, especially by some newbie. So I've just decided there's no way this'd change any mind.

For the record, I didn't mean to say Pokemon like Articuno or Ninjask are trash themselves, but they're trash considering the meta. Like you just said, they're not bad Pokemon, but SR severely hinders them, and that's the only reason Articuno is lower than, say, RU or even UU. It's also the reason it won't rise, because there are no Pokemon that can prevent or get rid of SR reliably in this tier. The fact a Pokemon with Speed Boost and a legendary Pokemon like Articuno are PU should really speak volumes to how much SR dictates the entirety of singles competitive Pokemon.

This is my last post because there's no point - but hopefully you at least understand what I'm saying. And when I say Pokemon that are good at removing SR go up tiers, that doesn't mean they're the only ones. Clearly a strong Pokemon is a strong Pokemon, but a lack of a weakness to SR, the ability to remove them, and at least another option outside of Toxic, can make any Pokemon go from PU to NU, RU, maybe even UU. Lastly, you are right that SR is not inherently, by itself, "unfair and unbalanced", but you have to stop ignoring all of the factors. Pokemon reliable enough to get rid of them rise tiers and are unable to be used in PU. SR isn't broken in OU because there are so many ways to counter it. In PU, with the hugely limited pool of Pokemon, and the aforementioned tier-rising of reliable SR counters, the problem is and always will be exacerbated. When there is another "official" tier below PU, or between PU and NU, I'm sure everyone will FINALLY understand.

Me though, all I hope for is people to finally make a tier where bad Pokemon can be bad Pokemon and not be bad Pokemon because one move dictates the entire metagame regardless of tier.

 

[MZ]

But these same mons would still be bad in higher tiers, your concluding sentence wouldn't happen unless nu/ru/etc also banned rocks. In fact, this is the only meta where you could ban rocks and nothing new would rise because they're still just as bad in the above meta

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

I think Snow Cloak Articuno won't be enough to make Hail viable. However, I have found a good Hail stall set for it despite that:

Articuno @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Hail
- Roost
- Substitute
- Blizzard

This probably falls under the "shitty gimmick" category, but I'm surprised defensive Articuno isn't used that often. The object of this set is simple: Set up Hail, stall the foe out with Sub and Roost (as needed), and fire off 100% accurate STAB Blizzards when necessary. Pressure can be used over Snow Cloak for PP-stalling shenanigans, but Snow Cloak is preferred to make use of Hail.

Overcoat Vullaby makes a neat partner for this set, since it won't take Hail damage and can remove those pesky Stealth Rocks. It also has good bulk on the special side to compliment this physically defensive Articuno.

 

[Magnemite]

Because there needed to be more PU ice type irrelevant hidden abilities released, the mighty Ice Body Regice will be available for use starting this friday!

 

[MZ]

tfw this thread's main activity comes from ban SR

One interesting meta trend I'm seeing is the rise of things which are effective at breaking slow balance. It's an attractive playstyle due to the amount of things you need to check, but if you look at games like HJAD vs Dundies you can see the playstyle really suffering versus some of these mons that have risen in usage for their unique wallbreaking abilities.

Mr. Mime @ Life Orb / another boosting item that doesn't weaken yourself
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
This dude is the clear winner now that people are realizing how threatening mime can become if it's not a 50/50 whether it gleams on murkrow or psychics on roselia. It doesn't have the immediate power some of the other wallbreakers might but a lot of the things that could check it like Grumpig don't like switching in as it Nasty Plots and aren't too hard to chip.

Lapras @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Hydro Pump
- Surf / Thunderbolt
This thing went from like C to being one of the best mons in B and I'm sure just about everybody has started to think about this a lot more. Freeze Dry+Surf is another one of those amazing STAB combos that people didn't realize exactly how potent it was. I actually think people should look at sub/toxic some more, as it can set up subs really easily and handles Audino better even if it does become a ton weaker. This one might theoretically be credited to being another water check, but honestly it's the cool offenses that make it possible. If you don't have Audino or Spdef Clefairy, good luck with this.

Chatot @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tangled Feet
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power Fighting
- U-turn
A personal favorite of mine right now, I haven't seen too many other people trying out specs over scarf but it basically invalidates the idea of walls if they don't have a Ghost-type around. It's not a very hard mon to get inside with some good pivoting and requires little to no chip to take down a lot of the general balance staples like quilladin, stunfisk, vullaby, while still pressuring Audino which takes a good 60% if it tries to switch in.

Of course there's still a ton of things like Stoutland, Ursaring, mixed simis, etc that have been and still are getting usage, but the rise in more anti-meta breakers is really interesting because they're just so different to check than any of the other, more standard ones. I think this is one of the first major signs of meta progression we've had in a while; PU kept feeling about the same since the latest suspects but playing for PUtrid path and testing for some other stuff it feels like we're finally changing up what defines a standard balance/balanced offensive team a bit. What are you guys doing to mix it up a bit?