Metagame np: PU stage 7 - Eh

Status
Not open for further replies.
I've been following the thread galbia posted to policy review, and it is quite interesting. It would be great to have Dpunch banned, however... If they do not let us ban Dynamic Punch, I still think it is a good idea to go forward with a suspect.

Some of you are saying that Machoke is a healthy pokemon for the tier, because of its ability to check dangerous pokemon like Pawniard, Monferno, and Rotom-F. Although that's true in some respects, it isn't the primary counter to any pokemon really and is less useful at keeping top threats in check than just being fat in general. I don't think losing Machoke would make offense too dominant or something since the best playstyles in PU still incorporate bulky tanks like Politoed, Golem, and Cuno. Many of us feel Machoke's negative offensive presence outweighs whatever defensive benefits it brings- it has very few actual counters, as pokemon like Swanna or Grumpig can lose a ton of momentum from being confused, and it makes offensive teambuilding much more of a headache by forcing teams to run multiple fighting resists or flying + psychic and the like if they want to do decently vs it. Basically at least a large chunk of us think it is unhealthy as a pokemon in general, and another large chunk think that it is overall healthy. So a suspect test would be a good answer to to determine which group is in the majority!
 

g

Apple-shaped POKéMON FOOD
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
If you haven't noticed the thread already and as Man Of Many said already a discussion about Dynamicpunch is going on over the Policy Review forum. Feel free to contribute with well thought-out posts. If you do not have the permission to post please PM me or Magnemite the content of your post and we will relay it to the thread.

Thank you for your cooperation :toast:
 
If you haven't noticed the thread already and as Man Of Many said already a discussion about Dynamicpunch is going on over the Policy Review forum. Feel free to contribute with well thought-out posts. If you do not have the permission to post please PM me or Magnemite the content of your post and we will relay it to the thread.

Thank you for your cooperation :toast:
In other words, discussion on a DPunch suspect should be posted in the policy review forum (although it probably won't be banned anyway lol). Feel free to continue with discussion on Machoke or any other mons that you feel are busted.

Speaking of Machoke, that should be banned ASAP lol. I don't have any other potential suspects on my mind, but I feel Machoke's wallbreaking power and access to a 100% accurate confusion-inducing STAB is way too much for the tier. Not to mention it's amazing coverage options...
 
If we cant have just dpunch banned which it seem like will be the case because policy review seems undecided then i think we should discuss again, machoke for a suspect sence it will be keeping dpunch.

Specifying edit^

Machoke creates free turns with with no skill and fractional prediction (ghosts are immune) simply by hitting its very powerful 100bp stab. Even with only 8 bp the target has to decide to either stay and risk a 50/50 or switch and hope its not dpunch again because of this youre either left with pokemin that have taken 8 dpunches or died from confusion hax in order to get a revenge kill and neither situation is favorable to any play style.

On top of the free turns created, machoke itself has reliable bulk with evolite and can take even some super effective hits meaning it can again use dpunch to create a free turn for itself or a favorable switch in. This makes even the best checks weary of doing their job.

The only sure fire counter to machoke is gourg-super and this is beaten by sub-bulk up which although not machokes best set goes to show even mons that should entirely wall it have issues with it.

TL:DR: policy sucks but if were stuck with dpunch we need to suspect machoke because it is unhealty for the meta WITH dpunch.
 
Last edited:
If we cant have just dpunch banned which it seem like will be the case because policy review seems undecided then i think we should discuss again, machoke for a suspect with it having dpunch.

Machoke with dynamic punch creates free turns with with no skill and fractional prediction (ghosts are immune) simply by hitting its very powerful 100bp stab. Even with only 8 bp the target has to decide to either stay and risk a 50/50 or switch and hope its not dpunch again because of this youre either left with pokemin that have taken 8 dpunches or died from confusion hax in order to get a revenge kill and neither situation is favorable to any play style.

On top of the free turns dpunch creates machoke itself has reliable bulk with evolite and can take even some super effective hits meaning it can again use dpunch to create a free turn for itself or a favorable switch in. This makes even the best checks weary of doing their job.

The only sure fire counter to machoke is gourg-super and this is beaten by sub-bulk up which although not machokes best set goes to show even mons that should entirely wall it have issues with it.

TL:DR: policy sucks but if were stuck with dpunch we need to suspect machoke because it is unhealty for the meta WITH dpunch.
That's a complex ban. Mon+Move. In that thread they discuss that.Either suspect machoke itself or nothing at all.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/banning-dynamicpunch.3573383/page-4#post-6831414

I find this post basically sums up all the points against a Dynamic Punch ban. It has literally shown no competitive (or rather uncompetitive) validity outside of Machoke, and banning the move of the combination of it in conjunction with No Guard just beats around the bush and throws away all of Smogon's Tiering Philosophy just to keep a subjectively "healthy" mon in the tier. If Machoke is broken, it is broken and removing the "broken aspect" of it contradicts the simplicity we try to achieve in our tiering. We can adapt to potentially new overwhelming threats such as Pawniard and Golem from there on as broken should never check broken in any Smogon tier.

TL;DR: Suspect Machoke or do nothing. Its that simple lol...
 
I think that I have some varied opinions about machoke that the rest of the people posting in this thread but I have certainly used machoke enough to know whether or not i would deem is "broken" in this tier and I'll explain my thought process too.

As far as I am concerned, machoke has 2 fantastic sets, one of which being the AOA with coverage, however it does not run recovery or bulk, nevertheless it will break teams very easily by outspeeding common walls by giving up bulk for speed creep. Whereas the second set; the better set at the moment for sure, is the rest-talk set being that it can customize its evs to choose to be physically defensive, specially defensive or mixed. This is the healthy aspect for the tier as it provides a check for pokemon such as regice / monferno / rotom-f / floatzel etc all in one slot, which can aid team building an extremely high amount, hence why I would personally like to see machoke stay in this tier and why I think its a healthy element. For it to run this set and to provide this healthy check for teams, it runs min speed / 0 attack investment, so the coverage argument is off the cards when using reasons to ban machoke in this instance, whilst it doesn't even have a great amount of power either, but on the contrary it has the two most spammable moves in the game in its arsenal being Dpunch which never misses and knock off in a tier filled with eviolite users. I digress.

Machoke on its own, if it were to have a regular fighting stab + knock off here, it would be beaten 100% of the time by pokemon such as beheeyem, swanna, clefairy, duosion etc. Pokemon with recovery moves that outlast the resttalk and can consistently switch in with 0 fear of confusion, which leads to my point. Machoke on its own, with regular fighting moves + knock off is just a regular fighting type which wouldn't be able to beat half of the tier without the aid of confusion. Hence this is why I do not think machoke is broken nor should be banned.
However, confusion is the reason and solution as to why it can break past its checks reliably, hence where I lay my blame for why machoke is deemed as broken. By having access to 100% confusion chance to beat its counters / checks, it gives an unnecessary edge to the player using dpunch and hence is given an uncompetitive advantage.


So here lies my solution: I propose we push for a 100% accurate confusion ban to allow us to deem what is beneficial for pokemon in general as i feel that dpunch on its own is not broken, nor is machoke, hence the combination of no guard+dpunch allowing a 100% confusion chance is deemed uncompetitive in my opinion. The same applies for moves such as confuse ray or swagger, whereby it takes away all skill and relies in a 50/50 roll. This does not mean to say that i think we should ban outrage, water pulse or hurricane, I am suggesting that move combinations that produce a 100% confusion chance on the opponent takes away the competitive element in this scenario, hence I propose if we were to attempt at an alternative method, i think that by banning the combination of no guard + dpunch, it is the way forward.

With what galbia said earlier about the Dpunch ban, same applies here with a new thread
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/100-confusion-chance.3573739/#post-6831528
 
Last edited:

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
So here lies my solution: I propose we push for a 100% accurate confusion ban to allow us to deem what is beneficial for pokemon in general as i feel that dpunch on its own is not broken, nor is machoke, hence the combination of no guard+dpunch allowing a 100% confusion chance is deemed uncompetitive in my opinion. The same applies for moves such as confuse ray or swagger, whereby it takes away all skill and relies in a 50/50 roll. This does not mean to say that i think we should ban outrage, water pulse or hurricane, I am suggesting that move combinations that produce a 100% confusion chance on the opponent takes away the competitive element in this scenario, hence I propose if we were to attempt at an alternative method, i think that by banning the combination of no guard + dpunch, it is the way forward.
The only issue I have with this proposal is that this problem only seems to exist in the PU tier (as stuff like No Guard + DPunch Machamp exist in UU and T-Wave Clefable in OU). We are effectively conflicting past precedent and this ban would be way to complex for the specific tier (as I do not see this ban translating in upper tiers and Chatter was already pushing it). The inconsistency becomes apparent and could cause more irrational decisions in the future imo.

Edit: Smashpass in BW does not count as BP was seen as broken as a whole later on and was added as a clause to completely neuter the strategy. Also many NU TLs regret the decision of banning Assist + Prankster in BW2 NU and would have preferred to ban Liepard instead.

Edit 2; Oh I just now saw ur thread in PR, so I guess this may happen universally. Anyways my opinion still stands.
 
Last edited:

g

Apple-shaped POKéMON FOOD
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus

Gogoat @ Life Orb
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Surf
- Milk Drink

I completely stole this set off 2xTheTap but it has worked for me really well recently. It isn't particularly fast nor strong but it has very nice bulk to check Water-types and Pokemon like Raichu on (bulky) offensive teams and nice and unexpected coverage with Hidden Power Ice and Surf.
The latter has obvious use against Fire-types mainly, such as Monferno and Camerupt, and is quite strong with Life Orb and Hidden Power Ice hits stuff like Altaria, Gabite and Jumpluff very very hard while also letting you damage opposing Grass-types (not Roselia tho which is only 3HKOd if offensive and you get good rolls) like Gourgeist which usually counters GOAT easily and Tangela which has bad SpDef.

The main draw of the set is the immediate power + bulk combination it has that is quite unique in the metagame and, while Bulk Up physical is a good set, not having to rely on setup to damage the opponent is very important as well since it lets you use this on Offense. I am using Max Speed Max Special Attack because i didn't bother looking for a better spread but it worked well so yeah

also TEAM
 
Last edited:

Anty

let's drop
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I've been running HO quite a lot lately, as I don't enjoy running those bulky balanced teams, and I've found quite a few underrated threats.

Most people don't bother with Vanilluxe as it is mostly outdone by Regice, however Van certainly has a few nice niches. Firstly its speed tier means it isn't outsped by any relevant choice scarfers helping it vs offense, and it is supported by solid bulk, though not as good as regice's, it does allow Van to take some priority like Monferno's Mach Punch. Vanilluxe is also stronger than Regice, and it is very hard to switch into its Ice Beam outside of resistances, and even offensive Fire types take a good amount of damage, and its access to Freeze Dry is really important as a lot of teams are starting to run Chinchou as their main Ice-type checks which just gets KOd. Choice Specs seems like an interesting option now that offense is less common, as it capitalises on Van's immediate power, and though it lacks Regice's coverage, between dual Ice STAB + HP + Flash Cannon (or signal beam) Van is fairly hard to wall.

Kingler @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 16 SpA / 240 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Agility
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Ice Beam

Sheer Force Kingler is a really nice lure to physically defensive Ice Types, as it KOs Tangela, Quill, and often Geist with just Knock Off + Ice Beam, but Colbur Geist gets KOd by Ice Beam after Rocks with 16 Spa EV's (more can be used as its Speed tier isn't too competitive). Though with Agility it can be a nice late game sweeper vs offense, as its natural power allows it to break through most non Water resists, however I often just use it as an early/mid game wallbreaker as even like defensive Swanna and aforementioned Grass-types get 2HKOd after rocks. It works well with other Water-types as it breaks down pretty much every water check (including specially def ones), though any physical sweeper appreciates its wallbreaking.

Though I originally made a jokey team with Tail Glow BP Volbeat, I have found it can actually be quite effective. Any +3 special attacker can demolish walls, and passing to speed boosters can let you sweep early game. Though I have been using Confuse Ray to help it set up, I've found people will often switch out into defensive Pokemon anyway fearing Thunder Wave, allowing you to pass w/o much fear, and the threat of encore also helps. Thunder Wave with Confuse Ray is pretty brutal and allows it to be useful as a sorta sack later in the game. Best things to pass to is stuff like Regice which can boost speed + has good natural bulk. Here are a couple replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-390507192
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-390500385
Also switches into Leafeon and Machoke.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top