Metagame NP: RU Stage -1: Message to Oglemi, Nails, and Honko (VENOMOTH STOLEN FROM US))

[gali]

Is there a ladder up for this somewhere?

Anyway, gonna go ahead and hype Shiftry. This thing looks like it could be a very good wallbreaker with a very powerful Knock Off. I theorymonned a set for it earlier today:

Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
Rash Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]/Focus Blast/Defog

Some sample calcs (There are probably better spreads out there for all these mons but w/e):

252 Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 165-195 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- Guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 183-216 (45 - 53.2%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 390-460 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, this thing hits like a truck. It even gets Defog if you need a user of it that badly.

Finally, Slurpuff + Memento support looks really scary. As anyone who played LC before early February knows, you do NOT want to give this thing a free turn.

 

[asgdf]

I'm not sure if 4 speed is enough for something as frail as Shifty, it's not blazing fast to begin with and would probably get outsped and murdered a lot. And, well, Knock off can't actually 2HKO Exca because the second hit is at 65 bp. Same for Leaf storm SpA drops.
It gets both NP and SD, so a non-mixed boosting set would probably work better.

 

[_SilverWings]

I feel like Specs Raikou might be seeing a comeback in RU. It has good speed and can hit really hard.

Azelf is underrated imo. It hits extremely hard and can be a fast taunt user to stop hazards setting up and set up sweepers or set up stealth rocks. Life orb works well with it too. I've been using it a lot in UU and it almost always gets the job done.

I'm so exited! I've been waiting for RU!

 

[Deus_]

Doublade anyone? Haven't really spent alot of time with it but I've achieved some sweeps with it. Easily sets up in Cresselia's face and physical attackers such as Cobalion, Cinccino and Toxicroak (play with caution for Sucker Punch, I like using Substitute). After setting up it continues to be threatening and can even cost your opponents games if they don't have solid backup. And it makes those Hitmonlee think twice about using hjk. It's a very underrated threat imo and looking forward to play with it.

Edit @ Swamp Link
Wow I don't know what happened there. Got my typings mixed up I guess.. Sorry for the inconvenience there.

 

[Swamp Link]

What the hell does Cresselia's Moonblast do to Doublade?

 

[Leer]

Its weird how there are no fire types in that threat image even tho fire types were so big last gen...
Altho I guess Emboar with Sucker Punch and Defogtres could work

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

I think of all pokemon in RU, I really want to try Raikou. Calm Mind + Thunderbolt + Aura Sphere + HP Ice could be ideal for a sweeping set.

 

[DaKakz]

Without Mienshao, Hitmonlee can finally shine as a Fake out fast High Jump Kick user...

Also, looking at the pokemons on the tier, is there anything that can safely come in on Specs Exploud ? Doublade gets destroyed by Scrappy Focus Blast and Fire Blast turns AV Escavalier into metal junk. I predict Exploud to become the Nidoking/Nidoqueen of RU, a 'mon that hits so hard and has a crazy movepool that nothing can safely come in against it.

 

[Matt LaMar]

Whoo can't wait to start this shit up! It's been too long since my amoongus has seen a good RU battle

 

[aesf]

Raikou is comparable to a specially bulky less powerful mega manectric. It's versatile, as it can run calm mind + 3 attacks, specs, AV, crokou, etc.

Amoonguss was a pain to deal with in UU, even with all the fire types. Now RU? r u kidding me.

 

[jake]

I'm not sure if 4 speed is enough for something as frail as Shifty, it's not blazing fast to begin with and would probably get outsped and murdered a lot. And, well, Knock off can't actually 2HKO Exca because the second hit is at 65 bp. Same for Leaf storm SpA drops.
It gets both NP and SD, so a non-mixed boosting set would probably work better.

Actually, I can't imagine that a boosting set would do well at all. Last gen in NU, we tried pretty hard to affix Shiftry with a boosting set, and it's just too fragile and finds very little opportunities to grab a boost (unless you're using it with some team built to make set-up easier, like teammates with Memento, but then again there are many other boosters who would probably be more efficient and reliable than Shiftry). All-out attacking sets fit its stat build and general movepool much nicer than sets dedicated to Growth, Swords Dance, or whatever else.

Truthfully, I can't imagine Shiftry will find much of a niche for itself in RU. It's too frail to find opportunities to get in the battle, and it's too weak to really make an impact on defensive teams. It'll probably get better as the metagame settles and we start figuring out what's best, since it's one of those Pokemon that has the versatility can be stylized to whatever metagame is, but for now you should probably stray from it altogether.

I think of all pokemon in RU, I really want to try Raikou. Calm Mind + Thunderbolt + Aura Sphere + HP Ice could be ideal for a sweeping set.

Aura Sphere forces you to run a Rash nature and doesn't hit any particular targets outside of Kyurem (that I can think of), while forcing you to underspeed quite a number of Pokemon that Raikou should probably be outrunning: Froslass, Zoroark, etc. I'm not going to jump the gun and say it's outright bad, but you should be wary of what using that move forces you to lose to.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Actually, I can't imagine that a boosting set would do well at all. Last gen in NU, we tried pretty hard to affix Shiftry with a boosting set, and it's just too fragile and finds very little opportunities to grab a boost (unless you're using it with some team built to make set-up easier, like teammates with Memento, but then again there are many other boosters who would probably be more efficient and reliable than Shiftry). All-out attacking sets fit its stat build and general movepool much nicer than sets dedicated to Growth, Swords Dance, or whatever else.

Truthfully, I can't imagine Shiftry will find much of a niche for itself in RU. It's too frail to find opportunities to get in the battle, and it's too weak to really make an impact on defensive teams. It'll probably get better as the metagame settles and we start figuring out what's best, since it's one of those Pokemon that has the versatility can be stylized to whatever metagame is, but for now you should probably stray from it altogether.



Aura Sphere forces you to run a Rash nature and doesn't hit any particular targets outside of Kyurem (that I can think of), while forcing you to underspeed quite a number of Pokemon that Raikou should probably be outrunning: Froslass, Zoroark, etc. I'm not going to jump the gun and say it's outright bad, but you should be wary of what using that move forces you to lose to.

shadow ball may outright be the better option, but I like aura sphere to take care of steels and rocks, rather than darks

 

[viol and bass]

Do you guys think using Wigglytuff would be totally ludicrous in this metagame? It certainly received quite a few buffs this generation (fairy typing, +10 Special Attack, competitive). Its main issue in UU was being outclassed by Chansey and then Florges, but it's one of the few fairies in RU and its wishes are enormous. It also punishes defog with Competitive.

 

[nkhlshnd99]

Why is everyone talking about haxorus? Isn't it bl.

 

[Magnemite]

One mon that hasn't been talked about much yet is Shaymin. Since it's so good in UU, it won't be RU for long, but you might as well use it a ton while you can. Shaymin has a few viable sets, but the most notable is the Life Orb set. Shaymin is pretty hard to wall thanks to its great coverage and Seed Flare's high BP and fantastic 40% chance to lower Special Defense by two stages. Off the top of my head, Escavalier, Kyurem, Cresselia, and Moltres seem like good switch-ins, but the first two fear HP Fire and Dazzling Gleam, respectively, while all of them hate a Special Defense drop. There's also other sets such as SubSeed and defensive sets that could work. Overall, Shaymin is very strong, versatile, really bulky for an offensive mon, and has a pretty nice Speed tier for the metagame. This thing is definitely going to be a threat while it's still around.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Do you guys think using Wigglytuff would be totally ludicrous in this metagame? It certainly received quite a few buffs this generation (fairy typing, +10 Special Attack, competitive). Its main issue in UU was being outclassed by Chansey and then Florges, but it's one of the few fairies in RU and its wishes are enormous. It also punishes defog with Competitive.

Unfortunately, I believe that competitive milotic was already mentioned, and it may just be a better competitive user.

However, wigglytuffs wishes may just be its niche in RU

 

[jake]

shadow ball may outright be the better option, but I like aura sphere to take care of steels and rocks, rather than darks

What Steel- and Dark-types? Cobalion is one, but not only does it take marginally more damage from Aura Sphere than Thunderbolt, it outspeeds you if you are using a Rash nature (a necessity for Aura Sphere, since it is an event-only move). Escavalier is neutral to Fighting-type attacks, and thus takes more damage from Thunderbolt. Sableye is outright immune to Aura Sphere. Crawdaunt / Sharpedo take more from Thunderbolt for some rather obvious reasons, I think. Drapion, Malamar, and Bronzong also take neutral damage from Aura Sphere, so you do more with Thunderbolt.

Magneton is probably the exception to the rule, but you resist both STAB moves and can use it as set-up bait. Maybe Ferroseed, but I sincerely doubt you'll see one since Fighting-types are so strong in RU. Losing out on your very important Speed tier is not worth the coverage to hit whatever Aura Sphere hits.

edit: I realized at the conclusion of writing this post that I misread your argument but the principles remain virtually the same. You hit almost all potential targets with a stronger neutral Thunderbolt or for marginally less damage at the cost of losing your Speed tier over various powerful Pokemon. You probably want to avoid using Aura Sphere unless it is absolutely necessary, or your team is prepared to check various threats that Raikou now cannot, such as Tornadus-I.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

What Steel- and Dark-types? Cobalion is one, but not only does it take marginally more damage from Aura Sphere than Thunderbolt, it outspeeds you if you are using a Rash nature (a necessity for Aura Sphere, since it is an event-only move). Escavalier is neutral to Fighting-type attacks, and thus takes more damage from Thunderbolt. Sableye is outright immune to Aura Sphere. Crawdaunt / Sharpedo take more from Thunderbolt for some rather obvious reasons, I think. Drapion, Malamar, and Bronzong also take neutral damage from Aura Sphere, so you do more with Thunderbolt.

Magneton is probably the exception to the rule, but you resist both STAB moves and can use it as set-up bait. Maybe Ferroseed, but I sincerely doubt you'll see one since Fighting-types are so strong in RU. Losing out on your very important Speed tier is not worth the coverage to hit whatever Aura Sphere hits.

edit: I realized at the conclusion of writing this post that I misread your argument but the principles remain virtually the same. You hit almost all potential targets with a stronger neutral Thunderbolt or for marginally less damage at the cost of losing your Speed tier over various powerful Pokemon. You probably want to avoid using Aura Sphere unless it is absolutely necessary, or your team is prepared to check various threats that Raikou now cannot, such as Tornadus-I.

I apologize, you're right. What stats does a rash nature affect? I'm on mobile, and I have a bad memory, lol

Nvm, it ups spatk and lowers lowers spdef

 

[termi]

thank u based molk

ok so based on theorymon, here are a few things I can say:

As far as hazard setters are concerned, here are a few things that immediately catch my attention:
- Cobalion. While it can be an excellent sweeper, it's also very much capable of running a pivot set thanks to Volt Switch, making it very useful on a great number of team archetypes.
- Rhyperior. I've heard some great shit about it in UU but never actually had the pleasure of using it thus far, but if it's already great there atm then why wouldn't it be here? It can survive pretty much any physical attack and set rocks, which is really cool.
- Shuckle. Sticky Web Shucks lfgi
- Crustle. Well, RU had this fella last generation and while it didn't receive anything new, it's probably one of the most reliable mons to receive both SR and Spikes in the tier.
- Qwilfish. I really enjoyed using this fuckface last gen so I will continue doing so. Solid af spiker.
- Gligar. Hey this is new. Considering it also learns Defog and Roost, it'll probably become a pretty frustrating thing to wear down. It can also pivot out with U-Turn if offense is your thing :o
- Druddigon. That's basically all you need to know ALSO ITS GIGA EVOLUTION KICKS ASS
- Froslass. idk if suicide leads will be a thing but if so, Froslass is da queen.

So what's going to take care of all them hazards?

- Togetic. Yeah, I know, this thing sucked last gen, but Mandibuzz and Clefable have proven how much a new great move in your arsenal (Defog) and a great new typing (Fairy) can mean for your viability respectively, so hey, why not? We'll have to see how it'll stand up to the eventual big threats in RU (I can already see it working as a great Shaymin/Tangrowth counter though), but on paper this one has a couple of really neat features.
- Gligar. Explained before. Should be noted that it'll have a severe case of 4MSS though, as it wants Defog, SR, Roost, U-Turn, Taunt, EQ and Toxic and it can only have four :<
- Golbat. What is it with Defoggers and Eviolite? Alas, Golbat will be more suitable if you need something anti-stall, which is cool. It can also use Infiltrator to hit Sub mons with Toxic :o Too bad the most threatening sub user in ru will probably be Raikou, who eats Golbat for breakfast so lol. 4MSS does hurt tho
- Xatu. Defog sets won't work very well, but it can still bounce hazard back, which is always cool.
- Hitmontop. Might perform a decent spinning role, spinners won't be very prepared for in this meta if you ask me, considering most of them are kinda bad anyway (Claydol is a sitting duck, Sandslash is Sandslash lol, only other potentially good spinners are Kabutops (who has more things to do than spinning anyway) and Cryogonal (SR weak though). Oh yeah and Avalugg but ehhh nah. Top has some actual offensive presence, many utility moves in his arsenal and decent bulk on both sides to boot.

Not many things to reliably fight off hazards though :< Luckily all Defoggers mentioned above have access to Roost, so they're durable enough, but are also all very weak to the same things (Defiant Tornadus/Competitive Milotic, anything with Ice STAB scares them out, so preparing for them is ez pz)

So here are some of the ideas for hazard control this gen. Take them as you will.

Now, here's what's potentially suspectworthy to me (purely according to theorymon(not the user)):

Kyurem: Too stronk ;_; I've heard many people can manage it rn, but once it shows its versatility and bulk, idk about it.
Azelf: Trades in bulk for a more colorful movepool and speed (and a nice support movepool in addition), probably managable but a potential top threat no matter what.
Cresselia: She just won't die ;_; CroCress sounds v. scary imo, Escavalier can take care of it tho
Escavalier: If you look at the amount of potential top threats it can take on just like that, it just sounds really really scary. AV and better offensive movepool go a long way in helping him.
Sharpedo: Not too stronk, but Speed Boost + Dbond could turn out to be a huge killer. It does sound frightening at least.

uhhh that's it I guess, I'll post more random thoughts on what to expect whenever. Just trying to give an idea of what is good in this meta and what to use (according to my theorymon skills!)

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Kinda suprised Kyruem is RU, for the first BL2 pokemon of XY, my money is on it. But does anybody have a geuss on when the ladder will be up.

And can people please stop meantining BL pokemon like Haxorus, Molk can you please make it aganist the rules to mention BL pokemon

 

[sparktrain]

Kinda suprised Kyruem is RU, for the first BL2 pokemon of XY, my money is on it. But does anybody have a geuss on when the ladder will be up.

And can people please stop meantining BL pokemon like Haxorus, Molk can you please make it aganist the rules to mention BL pokemon

Since the RU beta list has been officially created, probably the next server reset

 

[Monte Cristo]

What about Defog Moltres? It's 4x SR weak, which sucks, but it's immune to Spikes and blasts through Hail and with Fire STAB and it's still pretty damn powerful. I can't think of any reason it wouldn't be as effective now as it was in BW RU.

Moltres is still quite the godess it was last gen, however the popularity of new bulky waters and assault vest is quite troubling for it this gen

 

[jake]

Ok i'm not Really sure if this is a good/retarded idea, but i'm thinking that a Milotic with "Competitive" in combination "Flame orb" could be a pretty cool idea for a set.
However the residual damage you get is of Course not Really helping, but if you desire to use recover on this set then that can make up for it.
But if you wanna give it a more offensive approach perhaps a Wish/Passer would be useful.

Anyways i wanted to get it out there! Please leave me your honest opinions! =D

The fact that burn cuts your Attack does not activate Competitive. Please don't use Flame Orb on Milotic.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Ok i'm not Really sure if this is a good/retarded idea, but i'm thinking that a Milotic with "Competitive" in combination "Flame orb" could be a pretty cool idea for a set.
However the residual damage you get is of Course not Really helping, but if you desire to use recover on this set then that can make up for it.
But if you wanna give it a more offensive approach perhaps a Wish/Passer would be useful.

Anyways i wanted to get it out there! Please leave me your honest opinions! =D

What exactly is flame orb supposed to do in relation with competitive? It'll activate marvel scale, but I don't see why you would use it with competitive

 

[Zkillerthriller]

Oops =(