np: RU Stage 11 - Bark at the Moon

[The Goddamn Batman]

This is the first round of RU I've played since Cresselia was banned for the first time, so maybe I don't have as much perspective on the subject as the rest of you do. However, I'm going to go ahead and share my thoughts on the topic. I am of the opinion that Cresselia isn't a centralizing force in the metagame. There are plenty of Pokemon that can deliver serious damage to Cresselia (Escavalier, Druddigon, Spiritomb, Drapion, etc.), and almost every team carries one of these threats. Of course, if you fail to pack something that can deal with Cresselia, you arent going to be able to stop Cosmic Power Sigilyph either. So its not like Cresselia is forcing every team to carry that one Pokemon just to stop Cresselia and vice-versa. I've found that the best way to deal with Cresselia is by inflicting it with Toxic and setting up on it. Cresselia cant do much to stop SD Drapion, CP Sigilyph, and others from boosting up and sweeping through its team. Taunt is another option that shuts every variant of Cresselia down. So is it difficult to deal with certain variants of Cresselia? Of course, but not any more difficult than dealing with CP Sigilyph, who we have already deemed unbroken. I like Cresselia's presence in the tier, and I hope we keep it in RU for future rounds.

Also, I have found Durant to be completely non-existant on PS (someone please correct me if Durant is not supposed to be used on PS RU!). Durant is somewhat lost in the offensive nature of the meta, being outsped by Sceptile, Manectric, Galvantula, Archeops, etc. Its base speed really hurts it, and with its lackluster coverage and vulnerability to priority, I would not consider Durant for any type of team except Hyper Offense. Just my thoughts on the topic, please let me know what you guys think!

 

[Yonko7]

I would like to share my two cents

For Cresselia, it has an interesting effect on the metagame, some good, some bad. When I see how Cresselia is handled, it reminds of how Dragon-types are handled in OU; have a Steel-type to absorb a STAB Dragon attack and you should be fine (a broad generality). In this case, the way to 'handle' Cresselia is to have a Dark-type, Escavalier, or something that can hit it super effectively. This is important because of Cresselia's immense bulk, which means that she can easily shrug off hits that aren't SE or STABed, or both. Now how many Pokemon can claim they have a SE STAB attack on Cresseila? Dark-, Bug-, and Ghost-types can claim this. Only 12 Pokemon can claim this, based on only typing, and in RU. This 'method' of handling Cresselia promotes creativity as NU adds much more Pokemon with the aforementioned trait to deal with her, which adds much more flavor to the metagame.

Cresselia, herself, adds much more creativity in the tier, as she can set up weather, screens, gravity, trick room, and general support. Such magnitude of options means that all the different archetypes are viable, whereas before these kinds of teams had much less options. Weather (Rain, Sun) have a bulky inducer similar to Uxie that can set up weather multiple times. Gravity and Trick Room play-styles have a bulky Pokemon that can set up the preferred field condition. The sheer variety that is available makes the metagame more enjoyable to play, as now offense doesn't dominate.

When looking at Cresselia, Uxie comes to mind. Why hasn't all this happened while Uxie's been around? Cresselia is simply much more bulkier, and has reliable recovery with Moonlight, which lends itself to being invincible. Uxie does, however, have Stealth Rock, and Momento over Cresselia, so Uxie isn't completely dead.

Cresselia overall doesn't do much other than spread status around, and could set up Calm Mind but takes too long to pose a threat. This length just asks for luck to happen, so it generally isn't the best route. The offensive nature that is Gen V, Cresselia adds a much needed change of pace, in that it gives the slower teams a chance!

 

[Pocket]

Batman, Durant is actually faster than Galvantula.

As far as Cress goes, it definitely has a large influence in the metagame. However, I wouldn't go as far as to say that she's a bad influence. It takes some adapting to do, but I believe Cresselia fits in RU comfortably in terms of its overall power level, and certainly not a major restricting force as I initially feared.

 

[The Goddamn Batman]

Batman, Durant is actually faster than Galvantula.

As far as Cress goes, it definitely has a large influence in the metagame. However, I wouldn't go as far as to say that she's a bad influence. It takes some adapting to do, but I believe Cresselia fits in RU comfortably in terms of its overall power level, and certainly not a major restricting force as I initially feared.

My apologies. Since most Galvantula are Scarfed, I must have assumed that Galvantula outspeeds anyway. However, because of the Scarf, Galvantula can outspeed and OHKO Durant anyway, so it technically can revenge kill it. Anyway, because Cresselia (and Durant, for that matter) is still listed as BL2 on the SmogDex, there aren't as many people using her as I would assume. I think it might be easier to assess Cresselia's impact in the metagame if we were to change that, as more users would be aware of their drops. I fear a Cresselia centralized metagame, as what we had with Cofagrigus, but I think we need more people utilizing Cresselia and Durant to fully understand their roles in the new RU.

 

[Molk]

Okay, ive played quite a few RU matches both vs decent players and against the mighty ladder in the past round, so i guess its time to post a few of my opinions :P.

Imo, Cresselia doesnt seem broken at the moment, in fact, i, along with several other senate members believe that the space duck might even have a positive effect on the overall diversity of the metagame. Pre Cress and Durant, you could easily win the majority of your matches with just a team of Uxie/Smeargle, Nidoqueen, Moltres, Kabutops, 2 fillers. I found it rather easy to just halfass my way up the ladder by using varients of that time, i eventually made a team that at least somewhat broke away from the mold featuring underrated threat Swellow, but overall all i had to do was mix and match a very small pool of pokemon depending on my mood and do very well no matter what. Cresselia possesses monster bulk on both the physical and special side, and singlehandedly walls many members of that small pool of Pokemon such as Nidoqueen, Sceptile, Rotom-C, and even Moltres! Because of this, while offense is still really damn effective, a good offensive team needs a way to break down the moon duck. This promotes creativity among the offensive players, making them start to use good, yet often unseen Pokemon such as Absol and Pinsir to break down Cresselia. We also have threats such as Crawdaunt and Escavalier that can reliably stop Cress no matter what. On the defensive side, Cresselia promotes the use of different playstyles such as semistall, full stall, and balance again! No team using one of those playstyles will be worse with a Cresselia in the wings, she is an excellent meat shield, field supporter, and pivot. Cresselia also promotes weather such as rain and sun to become more common, which is pretty cool as these playstyles have been mainly unexplored until now!


On durant, i honestly dont know what to think of it yet, one one hand, Durant seems like an incredibly broken force on paper, at least to me, but i havent been able to come up with a valid opinion on the iron ant thanks to one thing: nobody is using the fucking thing. Over the past round, and hundreds of games, i have seen a grand total of 3 durant :/. Two of them were manageable, and one of them ended up sweeping me because i played like a shit. I would at least give Durant some more time to see if it actually has a negative effect on the metagame before jumping to any conclusions, because i really want to see what kind of metagame will be formed once people realize that Durant is being retested!

 

[Pocket]

Yea, I also noticed a noticeable increase in Crawdaunt, presumably for taking advantage of Cresselia. I also believe I've seen an increase rise in Aggron and Klinklang for the same reasons, but I may be mistaken. I haven't tried Durant myself, but I heard New Breed (?) that Lum Hone Claws work wonders :d

I'm still surprised that Hitmonlee is still around. I assumed Cresselia would've killed its usage.

 

[Phozon]

I had an RU match a while back and I have been useing a Shuffleing team and I have a Max HP max Def Druddigion and the fact that it's X-Scis can do more then 50% to it, its way to much. I'm not a fan at all for Durrant comeing down. Its got alot of power and even though Hussle gives it a chance to miss it's still way to much. Cress on the other hand, I haven't had to many problems with it. Its just a pain to ware down.

 

[Avira]

Druddigon's 77/90 physical defense is not that great even with maximum investment. If you want to deal with Durant, use something else.

I don't find Cresselia or Durant's presence on the metagame to be negative so far. Cresselia is needed as a reliable answer to Nidoqueen for slower teams, and there are many Dark/Bug types that give Cresselia problems. Using more Pokemon that can keep momentum is also a reasonable answer to Cresselia, as it can't keep walling things after repeatedly taking Volt Switches. If you are really gunning to use Cryogonal on a full stall team (pretty much the only viable spinner on a defensive team), you will likely need to place all of Cresselia's EV investment into Special Defense, making it quite susceptible to Pursuit or being forced out by other strong attackers. And Cresselia is weak even with a few boosts and should never sweep unless pretty much everything goes in your favor. Durant has a hard time with the faster pace of the metagame compared to when it previously banned, and its accuracy issues are quite annoying.

 

[Molk]

Druddigon's 77/70 physical defense is not that great even with maximum investment. If you want to deal with Durant, use something else.

I don't find Cresselia or Durant's presence on the metagame to be negative so far. Cresselia is needed as a reliable answer to Nidoqueen for slower teams, and there are many Dark/Bug types that give Cresselia problems. Using more Pokemon that can keep momentum is also a reasonable answer to Cresselia, as it can't keep walling things after repeatedly taking Volt Switches. If you are really gunning to use Cryogonal on a full stall team (pretty much the only viable spinner on a defensive team), you will likely need to place all of Cresselia's EV investment into Special Defense, making it quite susceptible to Pursuit or being forced out by other strong attackers. And Cresselia is weak even with a few boosts and should never sweep unless pretty much everything goes in your favor. Durant has a hard time with the faster pace of the metagame compared to when it previously banned, and its accuracy issues are quite annoying.

Just wanted to point out that druddigon actually has 77/90 physical bulk, im not sure if that was a typo or not, but i just felt i needed to point that out!

 

[Yonko7]

These are thoughts from what I've seen from people, and how I used it.

Durant is an interesting case, which looks extremely deadly, but in reality much harder to execute properly. It's been said that Durant doesn't have too many traditional counters thanks to its sheer power after setup; has a hard time setting up with Hone Claws due to its horrid Special Defense; can threaten defensive teams once it sets up; but has a hard time setting up against offensive teams because of the offensive pressure.

The addition of Durant hasn't affected the metagame to the degree that Cresselia has, but has offered something. Its presence has influenced the offensive pace of the metagame, thanks to its Speed and Attack, in a way making the metagame "more" offensive. That being said, it still hasn't added anything ground-breaking that allows it to sweep all the time or something similar. In general, Durant is most dangerous once setup, but before that its like "Russian roulette" for a lack of a better example, in that sometimes you actually hit hard, but other times you miss and get screwed. Ironically, the same way it has influenced the to the offensive-ness, it also has a hard time setting up against offensive teams. On the other hand, Durant has a much easier time setting up against defensive teams with the pressure it can place. This "advantage" against balanced teams somewhat makes up for Cresselia's effect on the metagame, making balanced teams more popular.

Durant has the potential to be broken, but the nature of the metagame and its surroundings sometimes make it hard for the Iron Ant.

 

[Windsong]

What you guys need to understand about Durant, is that while it has the potential to be a top level threat (and at one point, was, of course, a very high level threat) the way that RU has warped has made it impossible for it to be as effective as it once was. First and foremost, offense is still the most solid playstyle in this meta. I know that a couple people (myself included) have been having some success playing stall/semistall oriented teams, but offense is still arguably the most effective playstyle in RU right now. When Durant was initially banned from the tier, the meta was at a stage where two types of teams were incredibly dominant - stall and balance. In metas where those types of playstyles are core, free turns show up significantly more frequently than in an offense based metagame, giving Durant the opportunities it really needed to wreak havoc with little to no support. Now, however, it doesn't have those turns, and more importantly, the teams are fast enough so that Durant isn't capable of doing anywhere near the amount of damage it used to be able to, even if it does manage to set up successfully. The cliffs of this are that, if you're using Durant, you're most likely requiring significant amounts of team support, and using free turns solely for Durant (rather than in order to set up something more destructive). It's still a good mon, sure, but far from as effective as it once was, and that is clearly shown.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Well, here's what I'd say about Cresselia and Durant.

Cress is quite a good wall, sporting incredible defenses. And reliable recovery in Moonlight (outside of rain, that is). Pretty neat. Not too broken at all really. Two awesome Pokemon in RU known as Escavalier and Absol both counter Cress. Other things like Scyther and Crawdaunt are both really good at that too. But nonetheless, I really like how Cress fares in RU. A top wall with a diverse movepool to boot. Seems right for this meta (Lol. Cress might be NU if nobody realizes it's here). But that's just what I say.

Durant is amazingly powerful. But it desperately needs a Hone Claws boost to be consistent. Ant is nonetheless awesome; the addition of Superpower is neat! Very powerful. Can OHKO most of the tier. Luckily, it has accuracy issues before a Hone Claws boost, not to mention Poliwrath makes a solid check to Ant. As does Scarf Magmortar, or even the rare HP Fire Sceptile. Nonetheless, I like Ant's power. It's awesome. (Like Cress, this will be NU if nobody realizes it's here).

Anyways, the big question I have now is what will happen to the two Lake Trio members in the RU tier now that Cress and Ant are here. I wonder if they're usage will die thanks to Cress being a better wall, and Ant killing both of them with X-Scissor.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Yeah, I'm really liking this metagame. In Stage 10, you would literally just see the same cookie-cutter offensive team being used by most good players. Even players that don't usually play offense like SV and DC turned to offense for the round. Uxie/Smeargle | Moltres/Entei | Kabutops | Sceptile | Nidoqueen | filler was the team used by the majority of players, and that was a boring metagame to play in, nothing like what makes RU so great as a metagame. However, I really like this metagame now, and it's awesome that the Pokemon that caused this aren't broken in their own right. Cresselia and Durant have made the metagame much better (and of course the mighty Stoutland). I agree with Windsong in that the metagame is still really offensive, but now stall, balance, and anything in between is not only viable but good again. Offense still has some amazing stallbreakers that it can use such as SD Gallade and SD Zangoose, and people that are getting caught up on Cresselia seem to forget how stupidly good Pursuit-trapping was at the end of BW1. RU has become RU again, and I'm really excited about things to come.

One of the things that makes RU so great is the room for creativity, and that good sets can come out of nowhere and suddenly be metagame-defining. We have this balance again, so now you can use things that wouldn't normally be able to be used due to the incredibly offensive nature of the past metagame. I've had success using mixed Sheer Force Life Orb Druddigon (we should've discovered this thing earlier, it shits on TanKing guys), and I'm about to test out another awesome set that hopefully will be the greatest thing since Magmortar. I hope you guys enjoy this metagame as much as I do!

 

[BattleStar]

It's a bit late but I guess I will post what I have to say. First off I hope other can remember along with me when Cresselia was in RU. RU was quite different that time, Cresselia had numerous counters with Yamega, Sharpedo, Krook, and a whole lot of others that can check her. Nevertheless Cress still was a major aspect and resulted in getting banned.

Strangely enough now, I feel that Cress is able to fit in to RU again. Even with some of its old counters gone, RU is in no way lacking checks for cress. There is still a healthy amount of dark types around, which usually stop Cress in its tracks if played right. With Cress being counerable it as well can a counter to other Pokemon. Like others said the introduction of Cresselia might slow down the juggernaut that seems to be the Offensive-oriented RU metagame. Which of course isn't a bad thing.

 

[Honko]

Yeah I like this meta a lot. Cress is a fantastic add to almost any team, whether as a T-Waving pivot for offense or a reliable wall for semistall. The best part is it doesn't really outclass anything; there are still some teams that will legitimately prefer Uxie or Slowking for that role, and they also have other roles they can fill that Cressy can't. And while a well-played Cress can make life pretty rough for a lot of attackers like Nidoqueen, Sceptile, Medicham, Hitmonlee, and Tauros, it doesn't stop those mons from being viable. They still have their place in the meta. Cress adds a lot of variety and creativity to the tier, and that's just with one set. Almost everyone has been using the excellent CM + T-Wave set, but as Cress settles in I look forward to seeing it in other roles more often, maybe as a weather supporter or SubCM.

Durant is strong and fast but clearly not broken. Also, its power is a bit overstated. Its Attack stat is obviously one of the best in the game with Hustle, but it only has 80 BP STABs to work with. Durant's X-Scissor isn't as powerful as, say, Entei's Flare Blitz or Hitmonlee's Hi Jump Kick. It's actually closer to Primeape's Close Combat or Kangaskhan's Double-Edge. Strong, but not amazingly strong. It really needs to set up before it can smash everything, not just because it wants the accuracy boost, but because it needs the power boost too. And, as anyone who's used Durant recently will tell you, finding a chance to set up is easier said than done. I think it's underused a bit right now because half the players still don't realize it's unbanned and the other half are more interested in using or reliably countering Cress. Once it settles in it should be one of the top 10-15 attackers in the tier, but I wouldn't put it much higher than that. Certainly not so overwhelmingly good that we should keep it banned.

 

[SilentVerse]

Alright, the votes are in! August has not voted yet but I will add his votes here once I receive them:

Durant:

Unban Durant

It's frail, it's inaccurate, it's not as powerful as it seems, it has trouble setting up, and it has at least one solid defensive counter and many checks. It's a good Pokemon, but not broken. Free Durant.

Durant: Do NOT Ban

Whenever making tiering decisions I ask these 2 questions: Is the suspect broken? If not, is it still putting a stranglehold to teambuilding and excessively restricting metagame diversity? The answer to each of these questions were NO to both Durant and Cresselia. Durant packs a punch with Speed to make the most of its offense. However, it's still trolled by Pokemon with base 110 Speed and above and all Scarfers. The biggest injury to its suspect status is its inconsistent performance due to Hustle, which forces Durant to use Hone Claws, a turn that must be well-timed to pull off successfully. Durant needs sufficient support to get going; it's RU material.

Unban Durant

At this point its pretty clear Durant is not broken in the slightest and is not even one of the top offensive threats in the metagame. Despite Durant's now excellent coverage with the addition of Superpower, the general offensive shift of the tier means that many Pokemon are easily capable of outspeeding and KOing Durant. Furthermore, Durant requires a boost of some form, whether it be Hone Claws or Choiced, to function effectively. Should it be a Chocie Item, Durant suffers from 80% accuracy on every move, a crippling flaw. Due to Durant's horrific bulk it can also rarely find Pokemon it can reliably set up on, with only opposing switches or poor matchups such as Roselia offering these switches. Offensive teams aren't the only ones that can handle Durant either, as the recent re-rise of Poliwrath and Qwilfish as bulky waters gives Durant two very strong checks/counters to almost any of its moves. Over and above all of this, factoring in the accuracy issues, is that Durant also suffers from heavy 4 moveslot syndrome with its new move. It is now forced to choose between Hone Claws, X-Scissor, Iron Head, Superpower, Rock Slide and Thunder Fang, losing out on key offensive or defensive threats, or its ability to become a significant threat, with each choice that it makes. For these reasons Durant should be unbanned.

Unban Durant

This is a pretty easy decision to make, and DittoCrow summed up my thoughts quite nicely in the suspect discussion thread. Durant is nowhere near as good in practice as it is on paper, as it has crucial flaws that make it a good fit for the tier. Firstly, it needs exactly the right conditions to sweep, and these conditions are rather hard to fulfill. Durant just isn't that good against offense, where there are a lot of faster Pokemon such as Sceptile, Aerodactyl, and Accelgor that can outspeed and KO it. There are also common Choice Scarf users such as Rotom-C that can easily revenge kill it. It also has several good checks such as Qwilfish, Poliwrath, and Rotom, that can easily find a place on stall. Durant needs to set up with Hone Claws to fix its accuracy issues, and this is easier said than does because everyone knows that Durant wants to set up, and it isn't particularly threatening before setup nor hard to kill due to its poor defenses. It also has a bit of four-moveslot syndrome; X-Scissor is a given for Slowking, Uxie, and Tangrowth, Superpower is needed to hit Steelix and other Steel-types, Iron Head is needed for Nidoqueen, and Rock Slide is needed for Moltres. It also has to fit Hone Claws into its set somewhere, so one of these moves has to go. Overall, Durant wasn't broken in Stage 5, and it's not broken now. It's perfectly fine in the RU metagame.

Unban Durant

While at first i thought that Durant would have a very negative impact on the metagame, after both using and playing against Durant i feel that its fine in the RU tier and should stay. While Hustle+a base 109 attack stat looks intimidating, its just not as powerful as you would expect it to be thanks its low base power moves, with its strongest STAB having a mighty 80 BP. This low move BP makes it much easier to handle Durant than its Attack and Speed would suggest. You also need to think about the downside of hustle: the missing factor. Durant will be missing its attacks quite often without an accuracy, and with Durant's relative fraility this can often mean the difference between life and death, this same fraility also makes it somewhat hard to set up a hone claws. Even if Durant does end up setting up, things like Poliwrath and Qwilfish can wall it, and it can be revenge killed by things such as sceptile and scarf rotom-C so overall, i think we should Keep Durant in RU.

Unban Durant

Durant is much more threatening on paper than he is in practice. His astounding Attack stat and higher Speed, while granting the potential to smash through the majority of the tier, are vastly hindered by the initial inaccuracy of his attacks, making him rather unreliable without first acquiring a Hone Claws boost. In a metagame that still remains very offensively skewed, finding a free turn to set up is much more difficult than it was in the time of his primary ban, making setting up quite difficult. The offensive nature of metagame continues to hinder Durant, with several common pokemon being able to outpace and threaten Durant, further hindering it. That isn't to say that defensive teams are completely susceptible to the ant, as many now pack pokemon such as Qwilfish and Poliwrath for such purposes, and even then do an excellent job restricting Durant's opportunities to set up. As it stands, Durant is a rather balanced force in the current metagame, and I see no reason as to why it should remain banned.

Unban Durant

Durant has clearly made almost no impact on the metagame and should obviously be unbanned.

Durant:

Durant, unfortunately, doesn't cause the uproar that Cresselia makes, so it isn't too much of a controversy. Durant's best set is arguably Hone Claws + 3 Attacks, which can easily sweep a team when backed by Hustle boosted 109 Attack and 109 Speed. On paper, Durant is more dangerous then even Nidoqueen, but in action its horrid Special Defense and low Base Power STABs ultimately let it down. Even after setup, Durant can be stopped in its tracks due to its coverage, Pokemon like Poliwrath can still take it on without trouble. 109 Speed is fast, but there are faster Pokemon in the tier like Sceptile and Aerodactyl that could revenge a rough Durant if needed, so Durant is not a problem to be countered by offensive teams. Defensive teams can handle Durant to a certain degree if they have a healthy Fire-type or manage to burn it, however, if Durant is given the chance to set up, then slower teams are in a world of pain; Durant is still counterable by defensive means.

Not much to say for the Iron Ant~

Verdict: Unban

Unban Durant

Durant has many flaws that keep it from being a 'broken' threat in the metagame. The biggest flaw is arguably its defenses; this severely limits Durant's switch-in opportunities, especially against fast-paced and offensive teams. Defensive teams are not without options either, as Pokemon such as Qwilfish, Poliwrath, and Rotom can reliably check Durant. Durant is also very inconsistent due to the fact that it has trouble facing teams that come prepared and because of its bad accuracy from Hustle. While Hustle might make it seem like a Pokemon that already has base 109 Attack is overpowered, Durant's two STAB moves, X-Scissor and Iron Head, only have 80 Base Power and are not as threatening as they seem; for example, Pokemon like Nidoqueen can survive a hit from one of these moves and deal heavy damage back. It's last move, usually Superpower if running the Hone Claws set (arguably the best set since Choice sets are walled easier), lowers Durant stats and enables it to be weakened by threats such as Steelix or Poliwrath. Durant also suffers from four-moveslot syndrome. If not running Rock Slide, Durant has trouble with Fire-types, Moltres especially. If, for some reason, your team does not take advantage of one of these flaws, there's always the fact that many great Pokemon including Sceptile, Tauros, Swellow, and Choice Scarf users like Rotom-C can outspeed and revenge kill Durant. All of these flaws make it rare for Durant to sweep through RU teams and thus I believe that Durant should finally be brought down to RU.

Unban Durant

This is pretty much a no brainer imo; even though Durant got Superpower, it's still plagued by all the things that hindered it before (and imo, Durant never should have been banned in the first place) by its weakness to revenge killing, difficult in setting up, unreliability thanks to Hustle, and the fact that it's not even quite as intimidating as it may seem (as Molk pointed out in the suspect discussion thread, Life Orb Durant's STABs are only about as strong as Life Orb Primeape...). It hasn't shown that it's been broken at all, so it should be unbanned.

Durant - No Ban
Although durant is certainly one of the scariest physical attacker in RU, its biggest appeal is also one of its biggest down falls. That is its ability, Hustle. Durant is pratically unwallable yes, but every turn you don't know if its going to hit or miss because of that 80% accuracy on Every move. And if you think hone claws is able to fix that Durant has very few things it is able to set up on with out the fear of being killed or crippled. Also durant has a huge trouble switching in. Specifically on the sp def side where it has abysmal spdef stats of 58/58. So even weak scalds from the likes of poliwrath will be a 2hko. Even if durant has a +1 bonus it still isnt that threatening because it is easily revenged killed by common scarfers in the tier. In conclusion, although durant is one of the best physical attackers in the tier it has too many flaws for it to be considered 'broken' and it is a perfect fit in the tier to create some diversity.

Durant verdict: Unban

I've been using the standard LO Hone Claws set, and although it is a great mon, it isn't nearly as powerful as it looks. It's moves are very low base power, which really off sets Hustle-LO Gallade hits harder with it's STAB than Durant does for example. Thanks to its abysmal special defence and HP, it has serious difficult setting up on anything. It can't even set up safely on Spiritomb, thanks to WoW. At +1, it does hit very hard, but it's sweep is going to be cut short easily, since basically anything faster with a moderately powerful special move can 1HKO it, such as Sceptile and Tauros with Focus Blast and Fire Blast respectively. Against defensive teams, you would think that Durant would shred through them like a knife through butter, but again it's sweep will be cut short. A well built defensive team will either have a Poliwrath or Qwilfish, and both are able to counter Durant easily. CB Durant is the only set able to get past Poliwrath, and it has to use Superpower to do this, which means it is now locked into a move with multiple resists and immunities, allowing a mon such as Nidoqueen or Moltres in basically for free.

Overall, Durant is a powerful mon, but it has a lot of checks for offensive teams to use, and it has enough counters that defensive teams aren't completely stuck either. Un ban.

So in a unanimous decision with a 0-12 vote to unban, Durant will be unbanned from BL2!

 

[SilentVerse]

Cresselia:

Unban Cresselia

Cresselia is a very powerful addition to the tier that fits well on almost any team. It walls a lot of previously standard attackers. There are several good Pokemon that threaten Cresselia, but it can potentially beat or cripple many of them with the correct Hidden Power or status move. However, 4MSS is a big deal for Cress. It can only run 2 of T-Wave, Toxic, Hidden Power X, or Calm Mind. For each one of those that it doesn't run, it gains some counters, and those counters can often set up on it and potentially sweep.

Cress has helped balance the tier by bringing stall and balance back on near-equal footing with offense. So far, she has only made RU more enjoyable. Given more time, we may discover new offensive Pokemon or sets that can work around Cress successfully, or we may find that Cress begins to truly centralize the meta as we get more experience using it. Neither one would surprise me. For now, though, I haven't seen evidence in my battles that would convince me it needs to stay banned. Free Cresselia.

Cresselia: Do NOT Ban

Cresselia is certainly a defensive behemoth, but I haven't seen offensive teams suffer much from its presence. I have been using solely offensive teams, and I was able to break through Cresselia when I play well. This may change over time, but for now, Cresselia is also RU material.

Keep Cresselia Banned

I struggled with my opinion on Cress for a while, because every time I used it it was such a dominating force, yet the metagame that it provided was undoubtedly better than the previous one. Posts by SilentVerse and Windsong more or less express my thoughts on this matter, so I'll keep this brief and say that Cresselia is without a doubt the most reliable sweeper in the tier, it will not fail to sweep once its appropriate checks are removed. It walls almost everything and anything that could beat it is completely countered by a single teammate. It provides ridiculous team support no matter which set it uses (bar SubCM). It makes Stall based and defensive teams extremely difficult to break as evidenced by both Windsong and myself running near perfect records with it on a Stall team. It can be splashed into any team as a catch all counter for the vast majority of the tier. Essentially, it walls significant portions of the metagame with ease, provides excellent support and sweeps easily and reliably. As much as this metagame is better off with it Cresselia is definitely too good for the tier. Perhaps we can return to the issue of Nidoqueen after this who skews the tier similarly to Cresselia although in the opposite direction.

Unban Cresselia

Cresselia is definitely a lot more controversial than Durant, and for good reason. It's brought balance to a tier otherwise overrun by offensive teams, and has restored the viability of balance and stall teams. I personally feel that Cresselia has done nothing but good for the metagame, and that it isn't broken. It's not too difficult to kill Cresselia with common attackers, as Drapion, Absol, Aggron, and others can all force it out. Offense is still the dominant playstyle in RU, and Cresselia hasn't changed that. It's just leveled the playing field for all the other playstyles. Nidoqueen is far more restricting than Cresselia, but that's not broken either, so why would Cresselia be?

I think that one thing is being severely overlooked in terms of Cresselia's weaknesses: its weakness to Pursuit. With Pursuit support, even Nidoqueen is perfectly capable of destroying stall with Cresselia on it; so much for being a hard counter. Of course, people think that "oh, Cresselia shrugs off Pursuit anyway". While this is true to an extent, a Pursuit trapping situation doesn't work that the Pursuit-weak mon always stays in. Just take a look at our common Pursuit users: Escavalier, Drapion, Spiritomb, and Absol each have some way of forcing Cresselia out. If you stay in on Escavalier, you're going to get wrecked by Megahorn; if you switch out, you're going to get hit by Pursuit and be within range of Nidoqueen's blasts. Drapion and Absol are both capable of setting up Swords Dance, and are incredibly dangerous to almost any stall team without Poliwrath; do you want them to set up? Spiritomb can also set up Calm Mind and Rest off any status, or use Trick to cripple Cresselia. The Pursuit mindgame isn't as black and white as everyone makes it out to be, and will be won by the better player, which is what we want to happen.

There are also Pokemon that completely destroy stall, such as Lum SD Gallade and SD Zangoose. Why doesn't offense use these to beat stall, or like I said before, an extremely threatening sweeper walled by Cress (Nidoqueen, Moltres, Sceptile) with Pursuit support? Why doesn't offense use Pokemon with U-turn/Volt Switch to keep up momentum and not allow Cress to heal? Why doesn't offense use Pokemon with Substitute? Why doesn't offense use powerful threats that don't care about paralysis? You get the gist of it. Offense seriously needs to adapt. Nidoqueen is far more restraining than Cresselia and stall was able to adapt to it; it's offense's turn now.

Unban Cresselia

Cresselia has been one of the most controversial RU pokemon overall, being banned and retested a grand total of 3 times over the age of RU (including this one!). Now im not 100% sure what to think of Cresselia, but i feel like we can keep it in the tier for at least one more round. While Cresselia is incredibly bulky and has a huge amount of support options, it also has quite a few checks that can come in on her with impunity thanks to her low as fuck offensive stats and pose an immediate threat. Examples of pokemon who can do this are Spiritomb, Escavalier, Crawdaunt, and Drapion. There are also a few pokemon that cant hit Cresselia super effectively, but still hit hard enough to break through her defenses such as Aggron, Entei, and Druddigon. So overall i think Cresselia IS checkable, but is having counters and checks enough to stop you from being broken? Thats questionable. Some people such as windsong and silentverse have claimed that while Cresselia slowed down the offensive metagame that Nidoqueen caused, it might have slowed the metagame too much and made it very stall heavy. Because of this concern i would say that while we shouldnt ban Cresselia outright, we should keep her in the tier for one more round and see how the metagame forms. Hell we could even make a suspect Ladder without Nidoqueen and Cresselia and see which metagame people like better, so ill repeat Dont ban Cresselia, but keep her as a suspect for next round and possibly resuspect Nidoqueen as well, i think thats the best way to go

Unban Cresselia

Cresselia's presence in the metagame has left a huge impact on the tier. It can be said that any team that isn't 100% offensively oriented can be improved simply with the addition of Cresselia to them. It's phenomenal bulk allows it to easily be manipulated to check or counter a wide assortment of threats single-handed. Paired with proper support, it can last indefinitely through a match without much worry. It's very presence forces many offensive teams to pack certain pokemon to not be utterly walled by it. However, while being an incredibly dominant force, it is not necessarily "broken" within the confines of the current metagame. The pokemon used by offensive teams, such as Spiritomb, Escavalier, Absol, and Drapion, are by no means bad pokemon outside exclusively use in checking Cresselia, showing that while it certainly forces some deviation in play, it does not "over-centralize" such teams. Moreover, it can be said that Cresselia has single-handedly revived balanced and stall-based playstyles in RU, being able to keep an assortment of threats in check with a single moveslot. It's Calm Mind set, while being phenomenal once it's respective counters are eliminated, still requires tactful play to accomplish. While it's presence in the tier may come into question should certain threats be brought up as future suspects (coughcoughNidoqueencough), the current metagame remains healthier and more balanced with it's presence rather than without, which is reason enough for it to remain.

Keep Cresselia Banned

I've made my thoughts on Cresselia very clear in the suspect thread, and if necessary for the vote I can elaborate more, although the majority of my views are expressed in my suspect and np thread posts.

Cresselia:

Cresselia is an interesting case, had she been introduced to RU prior it would have been certainly deemed "broken" or "overpowered", but that isn't necessarily the case now. It is true that Cresselia can be classified as "cheap" by assessing the sheer number of Pokemon that it can wall thanks to her bulk and movepool. Additionally, the common notion is that she doesn't need too much skill to play, simply switch in use Thunder Wave; heal with Moonlight if needed; set up Calm Minds if late-game and done. Despite her mountainous bulk, she does have some counters, such as Escavalier, Spiritomb, and Drapion to name a few. Cresselia doesn't fit a specific mold either, as she can fit anywhere from Heavy Offense to full Stall (HO appreciates Screens and Lunar Dance), this versatility adds to her utility, and she can have a role in almost any team. Cresselia's sheer use on almost any style of team is a testament to her usefulness, and if trainers want to get around her, then they will have to think outside of the box, such as SubDD Crawdaunt.

Cresselia's over-arching usefulness might suggest that she is over-centralizing the metagame, however, despite her enormous utility, other Pokemon that share a similar niche still has time to shine, so she won't be taking too much away from them. For example, Slowking still functions great as a check to the Fire-types of the tier, such as Choice Band Entei, and LO Moltres, whereas Cresselia has a bigger chance to be 2KOed by both (unless specifically EVed in the latter case). Tangrowth can still check physical sweepers really well and has Sleep Powder as well as a high base 110 Special Attack to hold over Cresselia's head. Sigilyph is a faster Calm Minder / Cosmic Power-er, and spread burns. So Cresselia isn't detracting anything from the metagame in which she was dropped in.

Again revisiting Cresselia's utility might suggest that she is too overpowered, and therefore needs to be gone. Prior to her presence, the metagame was much more fast-paced thanks to Nidoqueen, which -figuratively- lopsided the balanced. Now with Cresselia, she re-balances the scale. Cresselia gives the slower, more defensive playstyles more time to breath, so her defensive 'weight' effectively counteracts the 'offensive' weight that was Nidoqueen.

Now that the scale is balanced, the metagame is more or less stable, in which there are more viable playstyles then there were before. Such stability has increased the creative juices and has given birth to unique Pokemon that were previously unused, for example SubDD Crawdaunt and CroTomb. Finally, this round is much more inclusive of new and old players in that there are more viable strategies, rather than Moltres+Kabutops+Uxie, etc., as was seen in the prior round. The better battlers now have a chance to deviate from the 'stale' mold from last round and use Pokemon that aren't so commonly used, and make them popular.

So these are my thoughts, probably forgetting something, but this should cover most of it.

~Verdict: Unban

Unban Cresselia

For the more controversial suspect, I believe that it is broken. However, I want to unban Cresselia because it has brought a greater balance to RU than we've seen in a while and should be given more time in the tier. Cresselia single handedly made defensive teams good again, which allowed for more diversity in not only variants of stall and balance teams, but also for some much-needed creativity in offensive teams. I specify how Cresselia does this in this post. I don't think that Cresselia should be banned yet until we come to a conclusion on lurking issues by comparing Stage 10 to Stage 11. Nevertheless, here is why I think Cresselia is broken, but keep in mind that Cresselia hasn't been used to its full potential so it should be given more time in order to truly figure out how to balance the tier.

Cresselia can take on a huge amount of threats in the metagame, too many to count. No other Pokemon in RU can do this, which is why Cresselia is a centralizing force in RU. In other words, the metagame revolves around using Cresselia and trying to take the opposing Cresselia down. First off, when using Cresselia, keep in mind that it is an extremely diverse Pokemon that can fulfill a ton of roles. It can run a variety of sets, such as Dual Screens to support offensive teams, Thunder Wave to cripple offensive teams, Hidden Power Fire to remove Steel-types that would wall it (Escavalier, Klinklang, as well as beating CB Drapion), Calm Mind, and finally, you can EV it to beat certain threats on both the physical and special sides. What this means is that Cresselia can fit on almost any team in RU, which makes it almost necessary to have a counter to it on nearly every team. The problem is that counters to Cresselia are few, and can be easily dealt with by pairing Cresselia with a good core, but more importantly, by changing the Cresselia set. People have already elaborated on Pokemon to use with Cresselia in the np and suspect threads, but not how Cresselia can deal with its counters by itself. For example, Escavalier is one of the best counters to Cresselia, but gets 2HKOed by Hidden Power Fire, meaning that it's risky to switch in. Another example, Drapion, Durant, and Crawdaunt, who all risk being crippled by Thunder Wave, making them much less useful. Yet another example is Spiritomb, who can be crippled and killed by Toxic since it fails to 2HKO Cresselia with any move. Cresselia is forcing teams to go to extreme methods to deal with it, and this is, for lack of a better term, bad for the metagame. A well played Cresselia can overcome almost anything offense and defense throws at it with just the slightest support. Because there are so few ways of beating Cresselia, every team is going to have just one or two specific ways of dealing with it. This causes the tier to lose diversity and balance. A metagame that revolves around a single Pokemon is not good. While RU is not quite at this point yet, it is certainly more than halfway there and will get there as more casual RU players realize the impact that Cresselia has on the game.

Keep Cresselia Banned

I've stated most of my points in the Cresselia suspect discussion thread, but to summarize, I feel that Cresselia is unhealthy for the tier just like Nidoqueen in the way it forces offensive teams to use a very specific selection of Pokemon to reliably remove it, and many of Cresselia's "checks" in Escavalier, Drapion, Crawdaunt, Absol, Spiritomb, and the like are all trashed by a certain variation of Cresselia's set. Cresselia also centralizes the metagame significantly around it; literally any team that isn't heavy offense will benefit from it, and as I said above, offense has to pack those checks or they will be walled by Cresselia (and even with those checks, a well played Cresselia makes them incredibly shaky). Thus, in my opinion, Cresselia should remain banned; bringing down a broken Pokemon to counter another broken Pokemon is not the answer we should be looking for to weaken stage 10's offensive dominance.

Cresselia - Abstain
Cresselia is a tricky poke on whether it is broken or not. Although, there are many pokes that can threaten it such as Durant, escavalier, Absol, and drapion just to list a few. Many of those pokes can easily be severly crippled or flat out beaten by cress. If cress is running hp fire then escav and durant dont have safe switch ins and if its running t wave then Absol and drapion are forced to take that t-wave and be crippled for the rest of the game. But adding cresselia can be healthy for the metagame for it makes stall, a once dead playstyle, more than viable. And cresselia also forces offensive teams to get 'creative' to be able to play around cress. I kind of liked Silentverse's suggestion of also banning nidoqueen. Because we are basically bringing a broken mon such as cress to balance out another broken mon, nidoqueen, to make stall viable in the tier. And honestly I havent seen enough of cress in the tier to make a full analysis of how big of an impact cress will become. That is why I'm abstaining cress until the ladder realizes that cress isn't banned and we can get a better representation of what cress's true ability is.

Cresselia verdict: Do not ban

Cresselia, in my opinion is actually a more dangerous poke than Durant. Thanks to its ridiculously large defences, it can safely wall half the tier with ease, and either start Calm Minding, or paralyze you. However, the most dangerous set that Cresselia can run is the HP Fire / Psychic / Twave / Moonlight. This set has almost zero counters-escavalier, spiritomb, CB drapion-all are beaten with this set. There are very few pokes that can actually counter this set-crotomb is the only one that springs to mind.

However, without Cresselia, the metagame decends into chaos again. Stall becomes unviable yet again, and offense is the only viable play style that you can use. That stage was a horrible metagame to play in, and although Cresselia has very few counters much like Nidoqueen, it is creating a much more balanced metagame.

Therefore, I think that Cresselia should be un banned for this round, but I would also like to see both Cresselia and Nidoqueen suspected for next round, as cresselia is basically a defensive version of nidoqueen, i.e. it has almost zero counters as well.

So, with a 3-8 vote to unban, Cresselia will be unbanned from BL2!