Metagame NP: RU Stage 12: Summertime [Darmanitan Quickbanned]

[phantom]

Entei Suspect Test

After a contentious vote and much anticipation from the community, the council has decided to retest Entei. As always, if you'd like to see some in-depth reasoning as to why this Pokemon is being suspected, there is a paragraph written below about why Entei in particular was chosen. The suspect test will last roughly 10 days, and the deadline will be 11:59 PM EST on the 31st of July, assuming the ladder is up the next day. The requirements for this suspect will be a minimum 80 GXE and a minimum of 35 games played. Do not attempt to game the system, you will be infracted the moment you are caught.

Entei reasoning

After a few months in the tier, the council has deemed Entei to be deserving of a suspect test. Entei's ability to inflict massive damage with Sacred Fire while being able to burn its target half the time limits Entei's counters to a few handful Pokemon that are only slightly phased by burns. The majority of fire-resists in the tier, however, are either physical attackers that are heavily crippled by a burn or Pokemon with no reliable sustainability, meaning any added chip damage can stack quickly enough for Entei to outlast potential checks. This ability to cripple its own checks while possessing the Speed tier to put it above every wall and many offensive Pokemon makes Entei arguably restricting for teambuilding and an unhealthy presence in the tier.

There are two main reasons why we decided to go through with another Entei suspect test, those being the contentiousness of the vote and because this is a suspect test that's been heavily requested by the community. As many of you know, the Entei vote was decided by a single vote, so we felt it was fair to give the community an opportunity to vote on it again and bury any doubt about whether or not Entei truly belongs in the tier. However, we wanted to give Entei some time to settle into the tier before doing so. This way, it would allow people time to thoroughly examine its effects on the metagame longer than a conventional suspect would and because we did not want to resuspect simply to allow those who were dissatisfied with the vote to try and fish for a different outcome. While the suspect itself may change the outcome, that is not the purpose. Under normal circumstances, a resuspect would not happen, but because of the unusual circumstances surrounding the vote mentioned before as well as the community expressing dissatisfaction with Entei's effect on the meta well after the vote was decided, the TLs felt it was important to finally settle any lingering doubts about Entei with one last suspect. We will not be using this suspect as precedent to resuspect things over and over again to change results because as mentioned before, the circumstances being as unusual as they were as well as the community's interest in this suspect is why it will happen.

During the aftermath of the Entei vote, we noticed many users going out of their way to attack others for how they voted in the suspect. You're more than welcome to debate and argue against other people's ideas, but ad hominem attacks of any kind are unacceptable. We want to create an environment where users are comfortable expressing their opinions reasonably and civilly without having to be attacked simply because they go against the majority. If we see any of same behavior go on in this suspect, there will not be any warnings and you will be immediately infracted.

One last thing: if you really care for the development of the tier, regardless of your opinions on Entei, make sure to vote! As we've seen in the last public suspect, every vote matters. That was not the first nor will it be the last suspect decided by less than a few voters, so if you really want to have your voice heard, then be sure to participate!

 

[phantom]

almost forgot: tagging The Immortal for a ru suspect ladder. please reset the suspect ladder, thank you :)

 

[Katy]

In my opinion Entei should not stay RU any longer, due to following reasons:

first of all, Entei causes a huge restriction in the teambuilding process already. Offense outright loses to it, due to the lack of
a good switchin.
Mega Blastoise has to be defensive, since no invested Mega Blastoise has a chance to get 2HKOed with stealth rock chip
and the possible 50% burn from Enteis sacred fire.

Hide

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blastoise-Mega: 105-124 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blastoise-Mega: 141-166 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

Offensive Mega Blastoise is by no means a switchin when it is burned and has to switchin multiple times into rocks, meanwhile the other check Rhyperior fears the burn from sacred fire.
The only reliable defensive check Entei has is Milotic, which has to be phys def.

I also think Enteis versatility speaks against it to stay in the RU tier. Being able to break one of its checks Rhyperior with z-solar beam and damage Mega Blastoise and Milotic rather heavy adds another point to it.

Hide

0- SpA Entei Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 384-453 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Entei Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise-Mega: 200-236 (66.8 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
into Sacred Fire or Espeed kills due to prior dmg

The speed tier is also a point I want to bring up. 100 base is by any means not slow for the current metagame in the tier, so it is able to outpace a good amount of mons.
The fact, that it didnt need long for Entei to be S rank at the VR shows how reliable this mon can act in general.

In general it pressures the RU tier so heavily, that I call it unhealthy for it. I would vote BAN on Entei.

 

[Dreadfury]

I haven't played RU too terribly much recently, and I can very, very confidently say that Entei is one of the reasons why. This thing is incredibly difficult to build around, this thing is incredibly difficult to switch into, and this thing's very few actual switchins aren't something you'd actively want to run on some teams. For instance, I can't realistically seeing myself running Milotic on a more offensively-inclined team over the likes of Barbaracle, Mega Blastoise, etc. and Entei tends to, from my more recent experience in RarelyUsed, do quite well against these kinds of teams. Sacred Fire in and of itself is an absolute headache of a move; Entei's neutral-natured base 100 Speed is good enough that it outpaces a great deal of the meta and Extreme Speed patches that weakness up nicely by giving it a powerful tool to revenge kill stuff. Sacred Fire+ESpeed alone is a fantastic combo and having Stomping Tantrum to cover things that can potentially stomach both of those moves. Whenever I bump into it while trying to get my reqs for this suspect I have to play the game incredibly differently, as Entei needs a very, very wide berth lest it just tear gaping holes in your team.

Lure sets to cover Mega Blastoise and Rhyperior obviously work, what with Bloom Doom hitting both for irreparable damage. But I'd make the argument that with Sacred Fire's extremely high burn chance and some Entry Hazard support, even these things don't really require it. You tend to know what Entei will do right away, but that hardly matters when just the existence of something that OHKOs a third of your team, 2HKOs a third of your team, and can cripple the other third of your team with a horrible status effect just makes this thing realistically difficult to switch in on. Mega Blastoise's lack of recovery makes it easily worn down and eventually broken by Entei (hell, Mega Blastoise often has to invest into enough bulk to specifically tank several hits from Entei), while Rhyperior being burnt effectively removes a great chunk of a fantastic offensive Stealth Rock user's offensive presence. And like I said, defensive Milotic isn't something you should be expected to run on every team.

Given all these factors - Sacred Fire alone being able to dent and burn a huge portion of the tier, Entei having somewhat respectable bulk and Speed alike, Extreme Speed patching up one of Entei's shortcomings and allowing it to revenge kill frailer offensive threats, and Entei having just enough coverage to lure in and severely punish would-be answers - I'm very much leaning towards voting to BAN Entei. I think it is incredibly unhealthy for the RarelyUsed Tier since it puts an enormous strain on teambuilding and can break past would-be answers nevertheless. And although this particular mindset is going to certainly seem controversial, I'm going to come out and say it anyway: I simply don't think Entei has a place in this tier, and banning Entei can only help the tier going forward.

 

[teachable]

as weird as it sounds, I feel if Entei gets banned we will be seeing a pretty strong rise in usage of golisopod and I've made a really cool set that is even usable pre-ban. It really let's goly not be dead weight in ANY matchup as you'll have cb impression for offense and rest longevity for balance.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rususpecttest-781328996

No Protect Please (Golisopod) (F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Emergency Exit
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Liquidation
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
here's my set and a replay, discuss.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rususpecttest-781208660

 

[Lil Infant Tylenol]

Before the suspect test I was on the fence about entei. I thought that it was strong, but could kept in control if However after getting my reqs, I definelty think this thing needs to go. Sacred Fire is a stupid tech as no physical attackers can be switched in cause of fear of burn. The best things to deal with this is Diance, Milotic, and Pyuk. Diance has no reliable recovery and prefers to be specially defensive. Milotic isnt really counter (ill show later), and pyuk is only ever viable on stall teams (and it doesnt appreciate stone edge)

So obviously Entei is strong. However what I feel people overlooked is Entei's power in the sun. In the sun, there is literally no switch ins. Milotic gets 2hkoed with flare blitz and rocks. Also Ninetales can also deal with all the Entei checks except Snorlax. So yeah, Sun makes an already broken Mon even more broken.

So in conclusion, we need to ban Entei. Basically the only way to deal with Entei is milotic or stall. Offense can get swept late game by e speed or just by sacred fire cause of its natural bulk and pretty good speed tier. Its too good and needs to go

 

[Lord Death Man]

I think I'm in the minority where I think Entei is fine for the tier. On paper, I think Entei can potentially be overwhelming to balance teams, especially ones that are relying solely on Milotic to check Entei, doubly so if they aren't carrying secondary checks like Noivern, Snorlax, Ampharos, Rotom-Heat, Kingdra, Slowking, Blastoise, or Diancie - this list excluding checks that Entei can burn to break through. I've certainly see teams immediately fold to Entei after Blastoise flinched down a Milotic or got lured in by a Sniper Kingdra (Milotic isn't really a Kingdra switch in though so I'm not sure what that one is about) as well. Neither of those things really make me think Entei itself is the problem with those teams.

This isn't to say Entei isn't an excellent pokemon - Entei is undoubtably S-rank in the current meta, and I think like any other huge threat, Entei has warped the meta around it in some ways. But I don't think it has done so any worse than the other two S-ranks, both of whom have forced me to adjust teambuilding in substantial ways multiple times as the meta adjusted them and they adjusted back.

Entei can potentially eliminate almost all of its checks with the right coverage move and some luck, but that's something it has in common with nearly every good wallbreaker bar like, Yanmega (who just needs luck for everything except Registeel). Entei is certainly faster than quite a few wallbreakers, but its speed isn't outlandishly high, being between positive-natured 86s and 87s.

If anything pushes Entei over the edge, I think it's the cleaning ability of banded Extreme Speed combined with its wallbreaking ability; there's not really anything that can clean up offensive and harass balance without setting up quite as well - the only other mons I can think of who can both wallbreak and clean are like Honchkrow and Swellow, both of whom have nowhere near the bulk or cleaning ability of Entei (though they both hit harder while cleaning, nothing really beats the reliability of clicking Espeed and stuff dying).

I will be voting No Ban.

dodmen and col49 both have excellent posts from the last suspect that have a similar opinion to my current one. I would recommend reading through the previous thread to hopefully help people better understand my point of view. I'm unsure if either has changed their minds, but I feel the meta has shifted very little since they made these posts (biggest change being the loss of Moltres).

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ru-stage-10-levels-entei-unbanned.3633367/#post-7776125
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ru-stage-10-levels-entei-unbanned.3633367/#post-7776842
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ru-stage-10-levels-entei-unbanned.3633367/#post-7776914

 

[freezai]

1. The ability of Entei to outright run over teams and break through its checks is overrated. Realistically, Entei is not getting more than a few opportunities to do what it wants to do. While Entei's natural bulk helps its cause, it is still weak to rocks and with its poor defensive typing it is very rarely going to come in without taking any damage. Just as its checks can get worn down, so will Entei. Yeah, if you give Entei a billion free switches it's going to break some of its less sturdy checks, but that's what wallbreakers do, they break walls. If you cannot control the momentum of a game and are handing out free switches to the opponent, you're going to be losing to every wallbreaker in the tier, not just Entei. Salazzle, Ninetales and even Marowak-Alola will punish you if you give them too many chances, and they are much better at actually getting through their dedicated walls.

2. Milotic, Snorlax, Rhyperior, Jellicent, Diancie, Slowbro, and Slowking are all viable defensive switch ins to Entei and are not particularly hard to fit on a team. Add this to the number of offensive checks like Tyrantrum, Zydoge, Mega Blastoise, Flygon, Mega Ampharos, Noivern, Kingdra, bulky Dragalge, Rotom-Heat, etc, Entei is more than manageable just like how Mega Blastoise is manageable despite its only true counters on bulky offense being Milotic and Florges. Stall has more hard counters like Pyukumuku and Quagsire while offensive teams have an even easier time controlling momentum and stopping Entei from coming in and also have ways to punish Entei not locked into sacred fire. ( Barbaracle comes to mind.)

3. Its coverage is all exploitable. An Entei locked into a non stab move is not at all threatening. The reliance on Espeed is annoying, especially considering Entei's defensive shortcomings and the fact that it opens up set up opportunities for RP/DD Tyrantrum and SS Barbaracle. Stone edge lets fighting types come in to either threaten a kill or set up while Stomping Tantrum is just flat out weak. You also have to to make the decision to not click one of the best moves in the game as well as the fact that Entei food like Bronzong/Escavalier/Registeel run Protect anyways to force you to lock onto Sacred Fire in the case you do get a free switch in on them.


Re: Versatility, Entei is not versatile; it has one set and it does that well. CM Entei is a meme and doesn't work 90% of the time, Grassium Entei is way too situational, has the opportunity cost of not being band, and is an obvious tell after the first attack when the damage isn't band. They do not even remotely contribute to whether Entei is broken or not.

Yes, Entei is a good pokemon: It is strong, has priority, has good natural bulk, and most importantly has access to a great move in Sacred Fire. However, there is enough defensive and offensive counterplay to it and it is ultimately not broken. I will be voting No Ban in this suspect test.

 

[Nubs]

Entei rightly stayed in the tier last time. There are more threatening fire types in power (Emboar) and speed (Salazzle). Furthermore, every play type should be able to deal with both standard Entei sets (band and vintei):

VS HO:
Entei is outsped by most mons on HO. While it does have decent natural bulk, HO will almost always have rocks up. Salazzle, specs vern, shellsmashers, aero, etc pop it with no problem afterwards. Vintei is all but ineffective against HO.

VS Balance:
Milo Regi spam is still life in RU. Haze Milo wants the burn from band and always pops vintei's sub after a haze. Balance also needs a scarfer now that M-Scept is banned, which should always outspeed. Balance does struggle more with vintei, but it has encouraged diverse sets such as taunt vern. Entei most heavily threatens balance, but it is manageable.

VS Stall:
Stall should always carry quag for both Entei sets. Vintei is mostly meant to check stall, but stall should always have a phaser to avoid having to much of a problem. On top of that, Entei's weaknesses to rocks and spikes make it very easy to wear down.

This post is in no way meant to say that Entei isn't a high tier threat, but it's checkable by all play styles and does not restrict team building. I have my GXE. After I get my last 10 games, I will be voting No Ban.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Entei has always been a mon that is not healthy for this tier in my eyes due to the multiple traits about it that make it low risk high reward along with the really unhealthy constraint it places on mon that restricts teambuilding to a large degree. While it does have quite a few checks and one counter it's still far too much for the tier for the following reasons:

• How exploitable enteis checks are: Some would be checks to entei such as tyrantrum and rhyperior are really faulty as they loathe getting burned and crippled for the rest of the match. Other ones likeblastoise,ampharos, and diancie while they don't mind burns nearly as much still don't like it due to them lacking reliable recovery and when hazards are in play they tend to get worn down too fast. Diancie in particular can't even reliably switch into it too cozy because of how much flare blitz does to it:252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 103-122 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- 33.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Factor in hazards + a lack of reliable recovery and it's really not loving life after one switch in considering there are other important mons diancie needs to check. The other ones like noivern and rotom heat both die to stone edge + the rocks weakness generally means they're going to be very low and noivern will be forced to click roost. Milotic counters it but at the same time like blastoise, rhyperior, can tend to invite in one of the tiers dangerous grass types in the case of all three of them or toxicroak for non ice beam blastoise and milotic. So while it does have some checks a lot of them have enough flaws that makes them shaky answers to it.
• It's speed tier, bulk, and priority: entei unlike some wallbreakers isn't really that easy to revenge kill due to 2 specific traits it has that set it apart: it's speed tier, reasonable bulk, and strong priority in extreme speed. 298 is very ideal for a wallbreaker and means defensive mons won't be able to speed creep it like in the case of bewear ttrum, pangoro, or even other mons like araquanid and machamp. 115/85/75 bulk generally means it's hard to put it down unless hit super effectively but most importantly extreme speed which means revenge killing it with faster mons is not an easy task and gives it utility vs offense which some wallbreakers tend to struggle with due to low speed. And it has defensive utility unlike some of the frail but fast breakers like swellow and salazzle for example.
• Finally the risk vs reward of entei: Entei more often than not has a very skewed risk reward ratio. The risk of clicking sacred fire is very minimal while it always has a highly rewarding outcome like crippling one of its checks, or just getting a huge chunk of damage vs whatever tries to stomach it there's not really that much drawbacks for clicking it.

For these reasons I believe entei is a very overwhelming force in the tier and conclude that it should be banned.

 

[KW]

I think I'm in the minority where I think Entei is fine for the tier. On paper, I think Entei can potentially be overwhelming to balance teams, especially ones that are relying solely on Milotic to check Entei, doubly so if they aren't carrying secondary checks like Noivern, Snorlax, Ampharos, Rotom-Heat, Kingdra, Slowking, Blastoise, or Diancie - this list excluding checks that Entei can burn to break through. I've certainly see teams immediately fold to Entei after Blastoise flinched down a Milotic or got lured in by a Sniper Kingdra (Milotic isn't really a Kingdra switch in though so I'm not sure what that one is about) as well. Neither of those things really make me think Entei itself is the problem with those teams.

This isn't to say Entei isn't an excellent pokemon - Entei is undoubtably S-rank in the current meta, and I think like any other huge threat, Entei has warped the meta around it in some ways. But I don't think it has done so any worse than the other two S-ranks, both of whom have forced me to adjust teambuilding in substantial ways multiple times as the meta adjusted them and they adjusted back.

Entei can potentially eliminate almost all of its checks with the right coverage move and some luck, but that's something it has in common with nearly every good wallbreaker bar like, Yanmega (who just needs luck for everything except Registeel). Entei is certainly faster than quite a few wallbreakers, but its speed isn't outlandishly high, being between positive-natured 86s and 87s.

If anything pushes Entei over the edge, I think it's the cleaning ability of banded Extreme Speed combined with its wallbreaking ability; there's not really anything that can clean up offensive and harass balance without setting up quite as well - the only other mons I can think of who can both wallbreak and clean are like Honchkrow and Swellow, both of whom have nowhere near the bulk or cleaning ability of Entei (though they both hit harder while cleaning, nothing really beats the reliability of clicking Espeed and stuff dying).

I will be voting No Ban.

dodmen and col49 both have excellent posts from the last suspect that have a similar opinion to my current one. I would recommend reading through the previous thread to hopefully help people better understand my point of view. I'm unsure if either has changed their minds, but I feel the meta has shifted very little since they made these posts (biggest change being the loss of Moltres).

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ru-stage-10-levels-entei-unbanned.3633367/#post-7776125
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ru-stage-10-levels-entei-unbanned.3633367/#post-7776842
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ru-stage-10-levels-entei-unbanned.3633367/#post-7776914

Quoting your post but mainly addressing arguments in the posts you linked.

I think the problem with the posts your referencing here is they are overrate the ability of many things to switch into Entei. Mega Blastoise takes around 40 from a Sacred Fire upon switchin, crippling its ability to provide removal for the rest of the game. Further it has to choose between scalding the Entei in front of it, and losing all momentum as a Grass-type/ Toxicroak comes in, or potentially being KO'd for nothing by another aggro Sacred Fire. This requires almost no prediction on the Entei users part for consistent reward. Dragalge is a niche pick, and doesn't take Sacred Fires well, and Mega Ampharos cannot afford to switch into Sacred Fire while staying healthy enough to break. Gligar and Noivern are terrible switchins, as a burned Gligar is easily overwhelmed and Noivern takes way too much from a Sacred Fire and can be OHKO'd by an aggro Stone Edge. In terms of mainstream picks which reliably switch into Entei there's Milotic, Rhyperior, and Diancie (which is imo already a compromise of a suboptimal rocker). At this point most people are familiar with the dangers of passively switching into Milotic and letting a Grass-type get a free switch, such as Roserade, and get off a free spike or an uber strong attack, as well as of the dangers of letting Milotic get low and letting Mega Blastoise beat it. Rhyperior is a reliable check, and can deal with the burn chance for the most part, so I'd accept that you could qualify that as a decent check. But other than that, there's not much, and having to fit one of these Pokemon onto ANY team you build, is incredibly constraining. If Entei doesn't so massive damage, its probably because you had to sacrifice a lot in the builder to check it, including slots that allow for a healthy level of metagame diversity.

Entei rarely needs to do much more than click Sacred Fire to automatically generate value, be it burning a Rocker, providing an opening for an offensive threat to come in, or wearing down/burning a Pokemon like Gligar so it can't check another threat like a Zydoge-10%. Entei isn't going to sweep well built teams on its own, but it will wear down its checks to mons have that good synergy with it can benefit, without having to outplay the opponent in any meaningful way. To not fall victim to this, the opponent must either have a team that specifically goes way out of the way to adresss Entei, or play much more aggressively than the Entei user. Banded Extreme speed is also extremely threatening versus offense, though this is perhaps a not inherently unhelathy dimension of Entei, it does compound with its strong ability to threaten Entei. Given the nature of Sacred Fire, and the ability of Entei to run Vintei or full lure sets, which have not been mentioned thus far, there is only so much degree to which one can adapt to Entei, without sacrificing quality of teams in other areas. The constraints Entei puts on build and play thus, while managable, are not healthy in my opinion for the metagame as a whole, and I will be voting BAN.

 

[dodmen]

Quoting your post but mainly addressing arguments in the posts you linked.

You didn't actually address the arguments in those posts. First of all, you straight up ignored over half of of the hard counters I listed that can fit reasonably well on bulky offense teams - "Milotic, Snorlax, Rhyperior, Jellicent, Diancie, Slowbro, and Slowking" - all of which DO counter Entei 100% of the time. You went through my second list one by one saying how they aren't counters after I (and Lord Death Man) had already acknowledged them as ONLY "secondary checks" and "offensive switchins to Sacred Fire if needed".

Your post was also even a great example of one of col's arguments: that this community refuses to adapt to things like Entei, exemplified by your immediate dismissal of Diancie as "suboptimal" and your complete disregard for Slowbro, Snorlax, and Jellicent as viable answers.

The rest of your argument comes down to a description of how a game of Pokemon works. A team is built so that they can take advantage of each other's counters. A standard defensive core is going to struggle against a team that is built to beat the standard defensive core. A Milotic that Recovers against an Entei (or Blastoise, Marowak, Nidoqueen, Yanmega, etc) is going to have to face the consequences of the Grass or Fighting type that switches in on it. No combination of Milotic Bronzong etc is going to be able to 100% answer all the offensive threats in the tier, nor should it.

Nothing has changed since the last suspect. If anything, the addition of Marowak, which completely obliterates all of Entei's counters besides Milotic, and takes advantage of most of the same things (Steel type rockers and Fairies), should dispel the "my Rock type / Water type should be able to beat the physical Fire type!" argument. Still don't understand why people are whining about Entei when Shaymin is 1000x more difficult to deal with and Blastoise has even fewer viable switche (not saying that either is suspect worthy though).

Hide

Also just want to say that banning non-broken threat after non-broken threat because "no switchins" is how RU ended up with a metagame in which fucking Alomomola was considered broken. (can't even apply the no switchins argument to Entei though so wtf)

 

[pokemonisfun]

Based on Serene Grace's post I see two big arguments to keep Entei: it has a gigantic amount of counters and checks and it it's pretty exploitable with SR weakness and Choice Band lock. Dodmen also talked a lot about the high number of responses while col made some very RU specific stigma note (Entei counter's have some sort of stigma?) that I can't really comment on since I never played RU before in this gen.

Leaning towards no ban right now but the fact that nobody really wants to switch in Rhyperior and I've had my AV Slowking 2HKO by a fire move from Entei before (granted it was a sample that ran 80 speed for some reason...) makes me pretty hesitant still: although I trust dodmen more than 99% of users on this site, some of the counters he listed seem pretty fishy to me. Gotta ladder more before I make a decision, but the strength of Serene Grace's post overall whihc summarized a bunch of previous posts really make me lean no ban.

 

[lighthouses]

I agree with the no ban side and would just like to add that entei does in fact suffer from a bit of competition from ninetales and marowak to a certain extent, the former being much harder to answer deffensively in my opinion. I feel like people were a little too quick to jump the gun on entei just due to how differently it opperates from the other fire types weve been having to deal with(cant just put a scarf tyrantrum on your team and call it a day, for example) i do think the meta has the tools to adapt though and dont think i need to elaborate on that any further given the past few posts.
Never in the history of the galaxy was alomomola considered broken, btw.

 

[Ajna]

Also just want to say that banning non-broken threat after non-broken threat because "no switchins" is how RU ended up with a metagame in which fucking Alomomola was considered broken. (can't even apply the no switchins argument to Entei though so wtf)

lol. alomomola was never considered broken in any metagame that we have had, and i am very curious to hear what non-broken threats we have banned. was it sharpedo, the mon that completely invalidated offense as a playstyle? was it durant, the mon that ripped through whatever playstyle it wanted depending on what item it was given?

anyways, this is not directed solely at you dodmen, but this argument that there are a plethora of viable entei answers is just not correct. calling mons like jellicent, slowbro, slowking, and diancie 100% switchins is just wrong. people have this idea that entei can not viably run z grass, so i wont even use that for my argument, but diancie is 2hkod by stomping ttrum, and has no reliable recovery. on top of that, diancie can't even ohko entei, and it's forced to run a lot of spa investment to force things like mandi out (so you can't invest a lot in def or like atk for diamond storm). i am not trying to dismiss diancie as a good entei check, because it is, but diancie team comps all are very similar due to the mons that every team has to cover, and they often have lots of trouble with offensive grasses. jellicent is also a good answer, but it is definitely not an easy mon to fit on your team because of all the mons that milo checks better than it. you're almost forced to pair your jelli with shaymin and/or toxicroak, and your team is still going to struggle with mega stoise, which happens to be one of the best mons in the tier. similar logic is very easily applied to slowbro and slowking, and lax is very easily pressured by entei and forced to be asleep for the whole game. the figy facade set would be a solid entei check, but that set has an incredibly hard time doing well in ru due to the prevalence of toxic.

this idea that you guys have about ru players refusing to adapt makes no sense because if you use these more niche bulky waters your team will have even bigger problems than entei. for the sake of argument lets say you could make some perfectly constructed team with one of these other waters. what does that do for the argument that entei is healthy for the tier? those waters are competing with milo for the same slot guys, they don't open up some crazy, unexplored team compositions. this leads me into my next point; entei heavily restricts building.

i do not think entei restricts building because it is inherently broken, but i do think entei was in a sense the straw that broke the camel's back. entei is a top tier mon that invalidates its offensive checks because of its main stab's burn chance, provides solid defensive utility due to it's fantastic bulk and typing, and has great cleaning potential because of banded espeed coming off of base 115 attack. entei puts us builders into a box because it heavily promotes these cookie cutter balances of zong/regi, milo, gligar. milo is by far the best reliable answer to the cb set, and it also counters one of the other best mons in the tier in stoise. i have very little reason as a builder to, for example, go with a rhyperior stoise team because it's simply not good vs entei. my rhyp gets burned and can no longer keep up rocks (not to mention it's setup bait), and my stoise can get 2hkod by flare blitz if it's not mega'd yet, and if the entei sacred fires, scald is a 50/50 roll.

i could go on for days as to why this mon is unhealthy for the meta, but i wont. at the end of the day y'all will vote how you want, but i just do not want this false narrative about entei's checks to be universally accepted. i don't even feel like having to explain why mons like dragalge, noivern, and gligar are not entei counters in any universe, and are even bad checks, but just very quickly so that my argument is somewhat more complete, i will.

dragalge can not effectively run a defensive spread in the metagame, and even if it could it is 3hko'd by every move entei clicks, and fails to even ohko back after rocks. noivern is not even a check because z hurricane doesn't kill, and it can't even come in on se or espeed to get off damage. gligar is a horrid counter because a burned gligar loses to registeel (among many other things), and becomes complete setup bait that's essentially forced to roost more than it should, and click u turn.

in conclusion, if the current meta had a few less offensive threats entei could be a fine addition to the tier, but due to the state of the meta combined with entei's lack of reliable answers, entei should be banned.

edit: roman reminded me figy lax can't even run thick fat, my b

 

[Master Chief]

I originally voted unban on entei on the last suspect but after experiencing a few months and building with entei both in official tours and on ladder during rult I changed my opinion and I feel entei should be banned again. As a person who changed his opinion on the suspect I feel like I can pitch in a few ideas about what changed my opinion and why I think entei now is an unhealthy addition to the tier. I'll address two main points of what I thought at the last suspect and what I think now.

1. Restriction on team building:
At the onset of the last suspect I originally thought Entei wouldn't have an absolutely massive impact on team building because bulky waters are near essential on every team to check the plethora of fire types that rule the tier. Notably I thought ninetales was in a similar boat to entei and its ability to run 2 extremely powerful sets in nasty plot and specs and that entei wouldn't be a hugely negative addition considering. If you compare the two mons directly both have amazing raw power but the key thing that differentiates how these mons are checked is how they are checked offensively. Ninetales was powerful but with a rather mediocre defensive typing and vulnerability to stealth rock it could be possibly pressured and worn out during the match. It's not the easiest to always get a nasty plot off and specs requires smart prediction on the users part to utilize fully. Entei on the other hand requires a relatively low skill ceiling. Common would be scarf checks can be burnt by sacred fire but more than that was entei's amazing cleaning capacity with extreme speed vs offensive teams. I noticed a trend of spike stack teams incorporating entei's ability to clean with extreme speed after a minor amount of chip. While RU's hazard removal is excellent, people came up with creative ways of beating common hazard removal such as Ajna using hp ice rose to get full layers where gligar was the primary defogger. Offensively entei teams restrict team building and the ability to pair entei with mons that just abuse passive bulky waters was one of the primary elements that now make me think it's unhealthy.

2. Would be Checks:
Nat highlighted this in her post in the previous stage so I won't pour into it in great detail. Basically on paper you could list a huge amount of paper calcs that entei could be checked by bulky rocks, grounds, dragons etc which at the time convinced me the meta should be able to reliably deal with entei. However while these mons do an adequate job of checking entei in theory, there are two main holes in a huge list of potential checks. Firstly entei's ability to run flare blitz pretty much puts nearly all the rolls in its favour but more importantly is its ability to run special sets. Z grass entei or even vintei act as absolutely fantastic lures for would be bulky waters and given entei's speed tier it becomes an extremely hard to kill mon for balance teams due to its decent special bulk after a calm mind and even potential to burn with lava plume. Offensively scarfers such as gardevoir find it extremely hard to revenge kill bulky entei. I messed around with vintei around a lot and I found really fantastic results on teams that lacked milotic or rhyperior since entei could viably pressure stall a lot of its checks with good prediction. The list of checks to band entei is already thin and don't fare as well in practice and this problem is further augmented by entei's ability to run 2 other sets that can absolutely blow the defensive checks apart if they aren't prepared to deal with it. I encourage you to search for a consistent check to all 3 of its sets which it can run on various teams.

Entei's warped the meta and I've tried to adapt to a new meta. I've actually recently enjoyed using slowbro a lot and I feel like it's a very underexplored mon but the argument that RUers have refused to adapt to the meta is blatantly false. Dodmen highlighted that there are other pokemon that are similarly difficult to switch into and to an extent I share the sentiment. Mega blastoise is one such mon that I find hard to switch into but the thing that differentiates mons like mega blastoise and entei is the ability to offensively check it and the fact that entei blows back defensive checks if it runs different sets or offensive checks through a combination of burns and extreme speed.

At the end of the day I encourage all of you to go out and ladder to assess how it impacts team building and playing the tier but I fundamentally believe that this pokemon is unhealthy for the tier therefore I'll be voting ban on this suspect test

 

[Cookees]

Just recently obtained Reqs. I haven't really touched RU before, so I'm still a bit unsure about the metagame. From my personal experience, I didn't feel that Entei was particularly dominant. It hits hard, but is mostly manageable if you focus on leveraging resistances. It's weak to Stealth Rocks and if it runs Flare Blitz, it expires very quickly. Sacred Fire is great, but it only has 8pp, so can be stalled out if necessary. I'm likely voting no ban, as I don't really perceive this Pokemon as threatening enough to warrant a ban, but then again, I played a Stall Team so my views may be skewed.

On another note, for these reqs I built a team that revolved around a Level 1 FEAR Togedemaru. FEAR Togedemaru is an underrated threat that can break through teams, with the right support. With Wish Support to guarantee that Togedemaru enters the battlefield unharmed (with Sturdy) combined with Defog and Sandstorm support, as well as a nice immunity to Toxic, FEAR Togedemaru becomes a daunting prospect, and I believe this strategy could be effective in higher tiers as well. The set I was running,

Togedemaru @ Shell Bell
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
IVs: 0 HP
- Endeavor
- Spiky Shield
- Toxic
- Nuzzle

For reference, this was the team I used, it's pretty messy since I'm not an RU expert, but I think with some tweaks and adjustments it could be pretty solid. https://pokepast.es/441732324633accd

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rususpecttest-782953180

Reqs Proof

 

[Denial]

I knew a guy like you would have appeared, so im here to responde to your bad post. First of all, this stall is bad lol it lose to a lot of common thing like bewear toxicroak sub seed shaymin band tyrantrum taunt toxic mandi and I can still go on, but im here to discuss your point about entei. First of all, youre using stall with slowbro and im sure you didn't try any other playstile, so you dont know how entei pressure teambuilding and playstile like offense. Second, sr are not an argument, especially in a tier with great hazard removers like blastoise or gligar. Pp are not an argument as well, because then even seed flare or head smash on tyrantrum arent so good, rigth?

Just recently obtained Reqs. I haven't really touched RU before, so I'm still a bit unsure about the metagame.

If youre unsure about how entei is in the meta, you can easily abstain from voting, since is an option you know. Im not telling you what you have to do, but at least first think about what youre doing, since you dont even play this tier. Sorry if I didnt said too much, but im on vacation and I dont want to lose much time.

 

[lighthouses]

Your post was horrible, do not attack people who are clearly newer and trying to get into the community just to nab some likes or whatever.

 

[OrangeGuru]

If youre unsure about how entei is in the meta, you can easily abstain from voting, since is an option you know. Im not telling you what you have to do, but at least first think about what youre doing, since you dont even play this tier. Sorry if I didnt said too much, but im on vacation and I dont want to lose much time.

I echoed this exact sentiment in a post on the UU suspect thread re: Mega Venusuar and while y'all can read my exact wording there, I thought I would briefly share it here too. These kind of uninvested users getting reqs just to vote on a pokemon's legality in a tier worries me because they admit they don't play the tier. Is it fair to come in and ladder for reqs over the course of a couple days, vote, and then hardly (if ever) play the tier again? Uninvested voters don't have to deal with repercussions to the tier like RU mains will have to (and there will be changes to the tier whether Entei gets banned or not because tiers always adapt, but the result of the vote may not be consistent compared to the thoughts and votes of the invested electorate). I know democracy is important and we don't want to exclude people from voicing an opinion, but I strongly believe something should be done about this, even though I'm not sure what potential options are at this point.

 

[littleshulk]

https://pokepast.es/5d96913d0792c51b
It's time for me to vote whether Entei is that good in RU, and in the link is the team that I used during the suspect test. Honestly Entei reminds me of Lando T from OU, but note that Lando T has never been suspect tested. Sure it's not completely similar since RU has less mons to deal with Entei, but it's too hasty to ban Entei. Also I recently learned that Lando T can check itself something that entei can't do, but despite that I don't think Entei is broken in RU. I've seen the players adapting in the RU meta very well against entei, and Feraligator James in particular has managed to reach 27# in the suspect test ladder as of now this post is made. This person who solely devoted himself to developing a consistent method to deal Entei, and I a person who devoted himself to just using this team in the link have only reached the top 300's at best. There are ways to adapt to Entei, and yes while it does feel like players are forced do to this. That doesn't mean Entei is broken, because while RU does have less mons that doesn't mean there is enough mons that can deal with entei and still fight against other threats. Milotic and Mega Blastoise are all good mons that can counter with Entei and do more the team. While some of entei's checks do fear burn, there are those who do not fear burn at all. I feel like with smart play anyone can deal with Entei. I am a new user, but note my experience with Entei. Trust me I know that there are other Entei sets out there, but one set that Entei uses which is well the Choice Band set I've been using. This Choice Band set is not unstoppable by any means, sure it's very powerful and there were games where I won just because I had Entei there after my opponents checks were no longer there. CB Entei really does not make entire teams unusable. I voting NO BAN on Entei, but hey that is my experience after all. Don't let my words discourage your stance on the Entei suspect test. There's last thing I will do and that share my replays with the team I've used. I really should save replays of myself losing, but this is all I have. The replays will on a different post because this post is way to long.

Here these are my replays with Entei. Feel free to use any of these replays for any purpose even if it is voting to ban Entei.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rususpecttest-781689383
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rususpecttest-781694622
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rususpecttest-781728819
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rususpecttest-781732690
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rususpecttest-781743696
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rususpecttest-781749795
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rususpecttest-781762745
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-783121780

 

[EviGaro]

Late but oh well, honestly I would probably just reiterate a lot of what I said in the first suspect test, as in I don't think Entei is extremely overbearing on the metagame, I don't think the stress people are experimenting in teambuilding is largely caused by it - bit of projection here but oh well - and I don't think it's something that effectively left the meta in shambles in the time it was here.

- People will criticize the argument about the plethora of water types that can deal with Entei largely due to how extremely difficult to fit those waters type, besides Blastoise, Milotic and Barbaracle, it is currently, so things like Slowbro / Slowking / Jellicent, who have decent attributes, simply are far more niche despite being good at several things. And it's true, there's very little reason to not run Milotic or Blastoise. Yet the reason for that is not Entei, as demonstrated, Slowbro is far better at dealing with Entei than Blastoise ever is, the problem is largely Blastoise. Running a bulky water type that isn't Milotic simply puts way too much stress on your ability to check Blastoise since it can punish about anything else for decent damage. The other mons that can check both Blastoise and Entei decently are Poliwrath and Vaporeon, who obviously have far more severe shortcomings in terms of consistency. So for me, answers being streamlined > Entei being too much is a bit of an issue when Entei is not reasonably at fault for the current hierarchy of water types doesn't hold up. I am not saying that a no Blastoise meta would make stuff like Slowbro on part with Milotic obviously, but it is much better at punishing certain other metagame trends - grass types, Toxicroak - that are rising because of the stress being put on Milotic.

- The Grassium lure is cool, but it's largely an inferior Ninetales. I think that's somewhat important to mention given the fact that Milotic already can't check Ninetales well at all, so reasonably a team that is aware of that fact needs to prepare adequately for that possibility. I guess the CB set is different enough that it can be annoying, but it's an extremely specific niche lure, whereas Ninetales can more efficiently run two main sets that break very different things even if it's both special. Entei's lure need a CM up to get Milotic out, is overly weak without it compared to the immediate power of CB, can't reliably run the priority that makes it good against offence and, in a funny twist, would probably be best in helping a CB Entei actually break a team, but that's not really possible.

- Speaking of Ninetales, I agree with dodmen that other fire types threaten essentially the same checks and thus make them flimsy fire checks, but something like Ninetales wasn't as niche as say, Marowak or Emboar or Houndoom prior to Entei being in the tier, and if you take out Entei, a Rhyperior / Blastoise pairing still gets completely wrecked by Ninetales as fire checks, and even the way too criticized Salazzle can go in on this. This is largely due to the fact that they are problematic mons to pair given the overwhelming amount of common weaknesses they share and how popular those mons are, and they actually have a better matchup against CB Entei due to it being more reliant on RNG than simply horrible matchups.

- Offensive teams struggle to fit in a robust switchin to it, that's absolutely true, but Entei is far from being the one culprit to this. Yanmega, CB Zydog, Roserade, Meloetta to give a few examples are extremely difficult to counterplay without resorting to sacks, and on top of it, they give less opportunities to team breakers like Barbaracle, Tyrantrum, DD Zydog, and even a Mismagius because of Entei being often forced in for powerful priority to setup and break. Furthermore, the influx of powerful base 90 and above mons on more offensive teams helps combat Entei's speed tier and can exploit its meh typing, and again, isn't so much compressed by Entei's impact but also the rise of Toxicroak, Blastoise, making the 80 speed tier less desirable. I see teams that are very focused on trying to outplay that speed tier without necessarily taking into account the base 90s, and while they predictably struggle with Entei, they're also smashed by Meloetta and Roserade.

So yeah, in all honesty since playing with Entei being freed in a few tours here and there, laddering occasionally, trying to build teams for people in Open, I genuinely do not see Entei as a culprit of frequent stress the same way I did with stuff like Durant and Sharpedo, who monopolized answers in a way that Entei really doesn't match. I despise the standard Regi/Milo/Gligar core, so it's never really come into play for me as a way of making Entei seemed balance, but almost every quirky thing I used in the past few months that can sort of serve as an Entei countermeasure can be rationalized for other things, so I can't really recognize that stress of hard prepping for Entei. The burns are annoying obviously, but it's been an annoyance with mons for a while now, which doesn't quite justify banning. But that's just me.

 

[MrAldo]

Anyways, just to give a closure and we will see what happens on the voting but I will like to continue based on this bit that Ajna mentioned. "But i do think entei was in a sense the straw that broke the camel's back", and this is how I feel too.

It is hard to explain this a bit, but lets say that Entei introduced a rather "cheesy" factor that I feel is rather detrimental. Like RU isnt unknown to cheesy effects and strong wallbreakers since we have Shaymin which can potentially cheese through many of its checks through seed flare drops but grass resists not too crippled by spdef drops are easier to come by like Noivern Ninetales but that doesnt necessarily cripple your checks unless it gives up another move option that can be more rewarding. The deal is that Sacred fire is stupid and while many pokemon are anti offense based on different things (mega blastoise can trade with a lot of things, etc, etc) no other can punish resistances as heavily as Entei by using a move that is resisted by them. This has already been reiterated 300 times but I just cant get tired of pointing out how dumb that is.

This isnt about what Rhyperior + Blastoise not walling all the damn fire types (they cant btw) or whatever pair of fire type checks can do, but it is about the teambuilding constraint Entei offers considering it + those fire types. Ofc, this core has plenty of holes but in practice having this 2 can suffice to not get obliterated turn 1 by them. You will be in for a massive world of hurt but you can contain them. Sometimes just feel the need to be overstacking yourself with fire checks when really, before Entei meta, that really wasnt the case. Only when you arent running Milotic you dont feel the need to stack yourself that much, but in my experience deviating from that makes teambuilding considerably less flexible. And thats because other fire types arent as good as Entei (on the Physical department) I like Emboar and Alolan Marowak and are also hella punishing but they are considerably slower, dont have a priority that isnt conditioning, and far more straightforward than Entei is.

Cmon, Calm Mind Entei and its variations are rather legit sets on their own right. Obviously Ninetales is better but Bloom Doom and "Vintei" being rather official things just add to the pain that is dealing with Entei is. We cant just be calling that "unset" and pretend it doesnt contribute to the volatility of some matchups (Ninetales Sun vs Entei is a phenomenal fireworks show btw). There is the "straw the broke the camel back" once more, and I fear that in my sense of tiering trying to introduce something else just wont work, but Entei certainly destroyed that camel back, that sense of "balancing itself" the meta had despite the multitude of threats there were to consider. SM in general is a generation that thrives on getting the best matchup possible thanks to Z-Moves and stuff but I feel Entei exarbecates that issue where some stuff it supposedly beat it dont do so anyways depending of the set. Im not sure if other "dominant" mons can be introduced from my mentality but Im really sure Entei doesnt offer something healthy that deserves to stay that cant be replaced with something else less constraining and far easier to revenge kill.

Entei is also really damn bulky for something that strong. If your name isnt Tyrantrum killing this thing depending of set can be an absolute nuisance, which I feel is something that stands out over other fire types. An impressive combination of bulk, power, and sacred fire alongside priority and some cool adaptable techs make revenge kill it considerably tricky. Ninetales too but that mon cant pick you up with espeed and is considerably frail on the physical side that some mons can dispose on it after some bit of damage. If your name isnt Zydog or Scarf Tyrantrum (and I guess Lycanroc) revenge killing Entei becomes interestingly complicated, and neither of them wanna risk switching into it anywas. Like Scarf Tyrantrum make take 40 from Ninetales Fire Blast but at least... you can switch with no status induced on you (unless you are unlucky). Same deal with Yanmega that can be punishing but it is way weaker to Stealth Rock and has a really frail special side.

And I think that does it for now, the suspect ends tomorrow so if you feel the need to say anything else make it quick. Please, lets not devolve into attacks, anybody that disagrees with banning Entei isnt a villain, it just offers a tangent that is interesting to debate and tackle; and even though I hate Entei with a passion, if it stays or not, we will move forward as a tier and learn to live with it. Vote consciously and draw a conclusion based on what we discussed on the thread, imo. (Those who qualified anyways).

Cheers!

 

[feen]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-ru-suspect-process-round-3-voting.3639942/
voting thread is up

 

[feen]

Just like the last suspect, in a thin vote, Entei is now banned from RU!
Tagging The Immortal to please implement on PS!

Feel free to discuss about the tier