^ I agree. It's also the reason Fighting-types are so rare, and are limited to one per team for the most part. That's a big help with me and my three-Pokemon-weak-to-Fighting team (Krook, PZ, Sharpedo, if anybody has had the misfortune of running into it). The only one that's even remotely problematic is BU Gallade, mainly because it's so goddamn bulky and takes anything I can throw at it like a man. I mean sure, it's 2HKO'd by PZ and Sharpedo both, but the problem is that's enough time for a Drain Punch in-between, which restores its health back out of my kill range. Thankfully nobody tries playing BU Gallade early in the match, or I'd be screwed instead of #25.
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np: RU Stage 3 - Like a Boss
- Thread starter Oglemi
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Leading with Bulk up gallade is amazing. Get an unfavorable matchup and the match will be easily won. Unless you can phaze gallade out, most of the time it will at least wreck half a team. At the very least it will cripple your physical wall/phazer to the point that it won't be able to stop gallade when it boosts again.
Been playing some matches after a break, and my team from the Venomoth days doesn't quite cut it anymore, heh. But seriously I encountrered a Qwilfish or Manectric in every battle. Also gave Cryogonal a try and I'm surprised how well it does.
Usage stats tell me most people use max Defense Qwilfish. I actually like that, it makes it easier to taunt.
Usage stats tell me most people use max Defense Qwilfish. I actually like that, it makes it easier to taunt.
I hate choice items, so I've been running power herb solar beam typhlosion. The thing absolutely destroys. When you're at full health eruption is not something to play games with, so they'll send in something that hard counters it, i.e. hopefully something water or rock. Bam, solar beam to the face and they suddenly find themselves without a check to typhlosion. The best part is no one ever sees it coming because typhlosion is like flygon, it can't switch up moves because it's obviously choice scarfed. The issues are stealth rock and the loss of speed, so a spinner is mandatory and you'll need to get it in on something you're faster than. I run modest and I've still had no problems with the second one (though it has hurt at the end of the game when I don't have anything bulky left to switch into)
I'll agree that it is usually runs a choice item, but if you like the power of Eruption, try it with some choice specs... it commands seriously awesome power. While I would be hesitant to use an item like power herb due to the one time use nature of it, (you don't like choice, I don't like "all or nothing" items) I have tried lesser used Typhlosion (who is awesome no matter what) sets, such as Fire Blast, Sub Punch, filler - certainly gives surprise factor. I respect the out of the box thinking and I might have to try that ( what is your other coverage move? hp ice, rock, etc.?) I'm not sure how much time you have spent in RU, but the ability for Timid to outspeed Moltres and others is usually enough to warrant the +speed nature on non-scarf variants.
In reference to the earlier posts, there are good fighting types in RU, but they usually require more support than most teams can give. Generally Primeape with vital spirit and u-turn is an excellent scouter, hitmonlee/chan are decent spinners, Hariyama is not seen as much now, but is still a bulky hard hitting guts abuser, Poliwrath boasts excellent resistances and can also fill the roll of bulky fighting type, and I know there are others.
Gallade is an effective lead, but patience can be a virtue. I usually carry a CM chesto-rest Cofagrigus which beats the Standard Sub Bulk up Gallade; however, if he is worn down from spin blocking or has already used his chesto berry - which often has happened later in the match, Gallade can beat him and pull off the sweep.
In reference to the earlier posts, there are good fighting types in RU, but they usually require more support than most teams can give. Generally Primeape with vital spirit and u-turn is an excellent scouter, hitmonlee/chan are decent spinners, Hariyama is not seen as much now, but is still a bulky hard hitting guts abuser, Poliwrath boasts excellent resistances and can also fill the roll of bulky fighting type, and I know there are others.
Gallade is an effective lead, but patience can be a virtue. I usually carry a CM chesto-rest Cofagrigus which beats the Standard Sub Bulk up Gallade; however, if he is worn down from spin blocking or has already used his chesto berry - which often has happened later in the match, Gallade can beat him and pull off the sweep.
Played a couple more matches today, and I'm still leaning towards NO SUSPECTS for this round. Moltres has been mentioned, but SR weakness is something you can't ignore, and on top of that you can always use Lanturn, who is far from dead weight against other stuff. Don't forget he resists BoltBeam when you use Volt Absorb, and he can support the team really well with Heal Bell. Volt Switch was a godsend for him to escape from Lilligant if you predict her switching in.
I'm really surprised to say this, but I find the tier to be completely balanced out, which brings me to an important point:
The next tier updates based on useage will totally shake RU up. We might get Aero and Sigilyph, and Dugtrio will most definitely leave, which I cosider a bad thing if we have a completely balanced tier in our hands here.
Is there the option to maybe just leave RU unaffected by tier updates? I'm sure I'm not the only one who likes RU the way it is now, and I think it would not be the worst idea. Give it a thought, and post you opinion.
I'm really surprised to say this, but I find the tier to be completely balanced out, which brings me to an important point:
The next tier updates based on useage will totally shake RU up. We might get Aero and Sigilyph, and Dugtrio will most definitely leave, which I cosider a bad thing if we have a completely balanced tier in our hands here.
Is there the option to maybe just leave RU unaffected by tier updates? I'm sure I'm not the only one who likes RU the way it is now, and I think it would not be the worst idea. Give it a thought, and post you opinion.
Admittedly I'm pretty new to Ru. But I used the same set in 4th gen Nu and I've got a pretty good idea of what he ohko with a solarbeam and what you need to switch out on and wait till it's weaker. I can understand not liking one use items but I've never really faced a team with 2 pokemon that can repeatedly take full health eruptions. And while my play style makes me prefer modest, I don't need much convincing on the value of timid. It costs me the game every now and then.
The whole point of usage based tiers is just that; they are usage based. Yes, this metagame is amazing, but the tier shifts every 3 months; that's just the way it works. So unfortunately we can't =(
If the suspects do prove to be broken they'll be banned anyway.
Also, congrats on 1k Nails!
Also, congrats on 1k Nails!
So, the major discussion in irc these days is Snover for suspect, primarily for the havoc death12's team has caused with many carbon copies of his team appearing and doing well, ShakeItUp (death12) himself currently in first on the ladder by a good forty points.
The main consternation has been the support Snover provides to Solosis and Dusion with Endeavor and magic Guard giving free kills left right and center.
Additoinally, theres the more traditional support it provides to Pokemon such as Glaceon, Walrein and Rotom-F.
So lets discuss Snover, its power and potential suspect worthiness.
The main consternation has been the support Snover provides to Solosis and Dusion with Endeavor and magic Guard giving free kills left right and center.
Additoinally, theres the more traditional support it provides to Pokemon such as Glaceon, Walrein and Rotom-F.
So lets discuss Snover, its power and potential suspect worthiness.
Yeah I gotta agree with Texas here, this team is broken mainly because of Snover. In combination with the two Reuniclus pre-evos with magic guard it lets them get kills far too easily with endeavor, turning any non ghost/ice type into a kill. This is too much for the metagame. The ladder is now completely dead because of this team since nobody wants to face it anymore. I've gone 7-1 with it with 5 instant forfeits upon seeing the team and the one loss being to the team itself. It's an effortless win, really.
That's my biggest issue with it by far. It's a very simple, set strategy that works against every team. Unless you're running mono-ice/mono-ghost, you're absolutely guaranteed to lose several Pokemon to Solosis and Duosion because of Endeavor + hail damage and the fact that they hit pretty hard in their own right. If you simply follow the instructions you win. I know it's hard to consider because it just showed up out of nowhere in the last few days, but it's hard not to pay attention to something that completely dominates the ladder upon arrival and flips the entire metagame on its head.
To get to the next point, there are a few strategies that do well against the team including the following:
Substitute users - These create issues do to removing the endeavour kill strategy but Hail negates Leftovers making it not too difficult to beat.
Jynx - What a boss. Very annoying for this team but is beatable with smart/carfeul play. Note that the Jynx user has to be perfect which makes prediction easy.
SubSeeders - A big problem for the non-blobs, but high health Duosion stops them okay. Still one of the biggest threats.
Rock Blast - Probably the only counter to the team, it takes down 4/6 members with ease and a 5th cant switch in.
Thats pretty much it. In total we have one strategy that is common, but does the worst of the four; a fairly niche Pokemon that isnt seen much; a strategy that has rarely at best been seen since early RU and a move that only 3 Pokemon (Crustle, Rhydon, Armaldo) use, and only on the occasion that they choose it over Stone Edge.
There isnt a lot that can take this team down effectively, you usually need a lot of luck if your unprepared, and good predictions/teambuilding if you are.
The summary of this point is that Snover provides excellent support that is very difficult to recover from. The best strategy I've seen against it so far is Hazards Smeargle supported by Whirlwind Hariyama. When that failed, the user had Sunny Day Moltres as back up. Thats pretty damn centralising,
(For my personal opinion, I'm neutral towards Snover being banned or not. I think it could be too strong but it could also not be too strong. I think the metagame could be better without it but the metagame could be better with it. I just want it voted on.)
Not to be ignored either is Snovers not unprofitable abilities either. The version of the team running around right now uses a more offensive Snover, but Snover is also capable of running an extremely effective SubSeed set that is capable of 6-0ing teams (someone has a log somewhere...). Its defenses are hardly lacking with an Eviolite and it hits quite hard on Pokemon weak to Blizzard/Giga Drain/Wood Hammer on an offensive set.
Substitute users - These create issues do to removing the endeavour kill strategy but Hail negates Leftovers making it not too difficult to beat.
Jynx - What a boss. Very annoying for this team but is beatable with smart/carfeul play. Note that the Jynx user has to be perfect which makes prediction easy.
SubSeeders - A big problem for the non-blobs, but high health Duosion stops them okay. Still one of the biggest threats.
Rock Blast - Probably the only counter to the team, it takes down 4/6 members with ease and a 5th cant switch in.
Thats pretty much it. In total we have one strategy that is common, but does the worst of the four; a fairly niche Pokemon that isnt seen much; a strategy that has rarely at best been seen since early RU and a move that only 3 Pokemon (Crustle, Rhydon, Armaldo) use, and only on the occasion that they choose it over Stone Edge.
There isnt a lot that can take this team down effectively, you usually need a lot of luck if your unprepared, and good predictions/teambuilding if you are.
The summary of this point is that Snover provides excellent support that is very difficult to recover from. The best strategy I've seen against it so far is Hazards Smeargle supported by Whirlwind Hariyama. When that failed, the user had Sunny Day Moltres as back up. Thats pretty damn centralising,
(For my personal opinion, I'm neutral towards Snover being banned or not. I think it could be too strong but it could also not be too strong. I think the metagame could be better without it but the metagame could be better with it. I just want it voted on.)
Not to be ignored either is Snovers not unprofitable abilities either. The version of the team running around right now uses a more offensive Snover, but Snover is also capable of running an extremely effective SubSeed set that is capable of 6-0ing teams (someone has a log somewhere...). Its defenses are hardly lacking with an Eviolite and it hits quite hard on Pokemon weak to Blizzard/Giga Drain/Wood Hammer on an offensive set.
No suspects except Snover, IMO.
There are stronger individuals like Lilligant and Gallade who will always be up there, but the tier is otherwise balanced. I only /ever/ have issues with Hail, really, and even this is remedied by leading with my HP Fire Magneton.
So I say, Snover may need to be examined a bit more, but otherwise it's a considerably balanced tier, and that's the reason I play it!
There are stronger individuals like Lilligant and Gallade who will always be up there, but the tier is otherwise balanced. I only /ever/ have issues with Hail, really, and even this is remedied by leading with my HP Fire Magneton.
So I say, Snover may need to be examined a bit more, but otherwise it's a considerably balanced tier, and that's the reason I play it!
I had to completely counter this team with a team of 4 priority users to get a comfortable win. I agree its too centralizing even though a couple things stop it in its tracks. A first time battler against the team is going to have no idea of where the weakness is and is likely to lose. Unless you have taunt, some priority moves,or the right resist pokemon(likely your going to need a combination), its going to be an uphill struggle.
this is horrible timing. snover after going the entire period in relative obscurity is getting a lot of support for banning with about a week left. i'm not really sure how i feel about as a suspect but i'm very hesitant to ban something that has been almost a non issue up to this point.
i used a version of the team and was remarkably unsuccessful with it, going like 2-5 before giving up on it. it really plays like clockwork and wifi clause lets a good player play around endeavorers, since it's pretty obvious when they'll come in. it was probably also because my team was bad but for a "broken strategy" that is an "effortless win", it should have been good enough. stuff like taking an endeavor with a rotom forme, volt switching to break the sash, then prioritying takes out a level 1 endeavormon without losing a poke, just to give an example.
i really don't want to ban snover because of some shenanigans with endeavor unless it shows that there's almost no effective checks.
i used a version of the team and was remarkably unsuccessful with it, going like 2-5 before giving up on it. it really plays like clockwork and wifi clause lets a good player play around endeavorers, since it's pretty obvious when they'll come in. it was probably also because my team was bad but for a "broken strategy" that is an "effortless win", it should have been good enough. stuff like taking an endeavor with a rotom forme, volt switching to break the sash, then prioritying takes out a level 1 endeavormon without losing a poke, just to give an example.
i really don't want to ban snover because of some shenanigans with endeavor unless it shows that there's almost no effective checks.
I think most of the support for banning has settled down quite a bit. I think most of the trouble resided in the fact that ShakeItUp had an excellent teambuild which was eventually used the most and without having any prior experience with the team it was very hard for mostly everyone to identify how to even start to beat it. It wasn't level 1 endeavormons being abused though; both Solosis and Duosion were perfectly standard level 100s (though I assume with dropped defenses to ensure you go all the way down to your sash when hit). Because they're level 100 at that point, you can also use moves like Psychic and Shadow Ball (to hit Ghosts immune to Endeavor) and KO stuff without having to rely solely on Endeavor. The teambuild also managed to take down very nearly every common playstyle effectively because it was based around TR + Endeavor; Trick Room coupled with the sash'd Reuniclus prevos actually made it incredibly hard on most offensive teams to maintain momentum because you could never OHKO either of them thanks to Sash and they always outsped under TR. Magic Guard also nullified most things that stall-ish teams were going to try to do, and Endeavor would bring them down to hail KO range anyway.
tl;dr : it was a very solid, innovative team that spread quickly and had few initial counters. i think people are more settled about it though
At this point we're (I'm) not arguing for a ban necessarily, simply for Snover o be on the ballot. In a matter of days the support Snover has provided has proven to be a hugely centralizing and powerful force that forces the ladder around it; to be successful every team either runs his strategy or runs a team/several Pokemon tailored to ensure they don't get beat by it. This is akin to running something like Gastrodon, Celebi, Gyarados, Dragon to counter a Rain team, your team becomes centralized to the point that if any other type of team were viable you would lose. And that's pretty much what happens here. Prior to this strategy being discovered we had a metagame where all styles of play were possible and competitive, but now the entire ladder has been centered around using or beating this team.
I feel myself getting repetitive (/blame iPod) so I'll stop this here for now.
Honestly, Death12's team may be good for laddering, but it is far from unbeatable. 2/3s of the team is walled by Mandibuzz and Toxic Spikes will kill Snover, Lampent, and Druddigon. The primary change I made to my stall team was the addition of Lanturn, which I honestly needed anyway, because I needed a decent check to Moltres. My team matches up so well that it's an easy win barring hax.
On offensive teams, Honchkrow will rip the team a new one if it gets in on Duosion or Silosis. And as MoltenKyurem has already mentioned, Entei and strong priority should do fine against the team.
I still think that Porygon-Z is the most worthy of being a suspect, with it being able to do huge amounts of damage to the metagame with a single download boost. Few things on an offensive team can switch into the scarf set and the Nasty Plot set is a true terror for defensive teams.
On offensive teams, Honchkrow will rip the team a new one if it gets in on Duosion or Silosis. And as MoltenKyurem has already mentioned, Entei and strong priority should do fine against the team.
I still think that Porygon-Z is the most worthy of being a suspect, with it being able to do huge amounts of damage to the metagame with a single download boost. Few things on an offensive team can switch into the scarf set and the Nasty Plot set is a true terror for defensive teams.
I still think that it may be broken, but obviously it's only been a day or two since this team exploded on the ladder. So another couple weeks during the next round might be enough to give us a chance to see if Snover is really broken. Not every team has 2+ priority users/a weather changer and that's a lot to ask people to use just so they can beat a variant of this team.
I really don't think banning hail just because of that Endeavor shenanigans is a wise decision. In fact, most of the problem dealing with hail is that a lot of people are running physically dominated defensive cores with Qwilfish, yet the big controversial issues such as LO Moltres, Porygon-Z, BlizzSpam, or even Duosion (lol idk but w/e) are in fact specially oriented. Special attackers are really good at the moment. It's just that if you're intending to run a slow team with defensive leaning, then you actually need to invest in a legitimate special wall.
If you're trying to use that team for instance, Clefable really stuffs all their weak special attackers with simple Wish + Protect + Seismic Toss. I mean, yeah 100 Solosis can use Shadow ball vs. Rotoms but really sash solosis is weak stuff. Clever play with ghosts can easily beat them, and Rotom is really common, and I expect it to be even more common when krook leaves. I'm definitely not the most skilled player out there, but when I got out to the ladder recently not knowing that such teams became popular, I didn't have much trouble with them. I know for a fact I'm really conservative, but Snover is imo not worth banning.
Oh, BTW, Trick Room even without Hail can really fsu and it's really hard to beat it with a standard offensive team with frail mons (zdrup can give the testimony here =)
If you're trying to use that team for instance, Clefable really stuffs all their weak special attackers with simple Wish + Protect + Seismic Toss. I mean, yeah 100 Solosis can use Shadow ball vs. Rotoms but really sash solosis is weak stuff. Clever play with ghosts can easily beat them, and Rotom is really common, and I expect it to be even more common when krook leaves. I'm definitely not the most skilled player out there, but when I got out to the ladder recently not knowing that such teams became popular, I didn't have much trouble with them. I know for a fact I'm really conservative, but Snover is imo not worth banning.
Oh, BTW, Trick Room even without Hail can really fsu and it's really hard to beat it with a standard offensive team with frail mons (zdrup can give the testimony here =)
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